Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[horridus]

And in a bit of behind the scenes media that's actually somewhat interesting, we have the prototype layout for Issue 50's cover. 

 

Hmm... the idea isn't neccessarily a bad one, but given all the stuff that would have come before, it comes off as kinda overly grim to me. I mean, I like somewhat darker stuff, but this seems like overkill, with everyone in the midst of being sucked into Ground Zero of the UA blowing up. 

 

That being said, I question why Geoffrey features so prominently here, and even more so, why the hell Sally's ghost needed to be here. Given that she was intended to stay dead, this almost feels like a mean spirited jab at the people who would be upset by her death. 

 

Also, I feel as though I've seen a cover like this before... or am I crazy? 

[Sunwalker]

That being said, I question why Geoffrey features so prominently here, and even more so, why the hell Sally's ghost needed to be here. Given that she was intended to stay dead, this almost feels like a mean spirited jab at the people who would be upset by her death. 

 

The work on an issue starts several months in advance, so this cover prototype most certainly was made before the part 1 of Endgame was published. At that point, it seems that Sally's death still was intended to be final.

[Drawloverlala]

And in a bit of behind the scenes media that's actually somewhat interesting, we have the prototype layout for Issue 50's cover. 

 

 

Also, I feel as though I've seen a cover like this before... or am I crazy? 

 

ohh  this just reminded me

Countdown to Chaos..

 

AND i'm not comparing Ben Bates art with Penders'..  because it has no comparition XD Ben Bates is better in many ways.. but this just reminds me that   O_Ou

[antyep]

oh god, lets hope Penders don't try to sue Bates for 'copying his idea'. And I say that lightly.

[Zaysho]

The work on an issue starts several months in advance, so this cover prototype most certainly was made before the part 1 of Endgame was published. At that point, it seems that Sally's death still was intended to be final.

 

True, it is just an initial cover layout. I'm guessing he submitted this with the ill-conceived O.J. Simpson trial spoof and it took a lot of work from editorial to hammer the story out into what it became. I admit, it is interesting, but seeing how desperate he was to kill off Sally at this point, kinda puts me off.

 

Though, looking at this layout... when I glanced at it, my first thought was Sally looked like she was being hanged. I know that's not the intention in the image, but I guess I would've done it differently to make it look like she was overlooking the final battle or something. Interesting to see Harvey Who mentioned on the cover, suggesting Penders had plans for him but they were shelved as well (Harvey was absent for many years until Flynn brought him back for "Secret Freedom").

 

 

oh god, lets hope Penders don't try to sue Bates for 'copying his idea'. And I say that lightly.

 

I'm so sorry

[biznizz]

The Substitute Freedom Fighers are closer to screen than the Chaotix. :/

But surprisingly, Knuckles is further back than expected, but Geoffrey is in his place.

[horridus]

 

True, it is just an initial cover layout. I'm guessing he submitted this with the ill-conceived O.J. Simpson trial spoof and it took a lot of work from editorial to hammer the story out into what it became. I admit, it is interesting, but seeing how desperate he was to kill off Sally at this point, kinda puts me off.

 

Though, looking at this layout... when I glanced at it, my first thought was Sally looked like she was being hanged. I know that's not the intention in the image, but I guess I would've done it differently to make it look like she was overlooking the final battle or something. Interesting to see Harvey Who mentioned on the cover, suggesting Penders had plans for him but they were shelved as well (Harvey was absent for many years until Flynn brought him back for "Secret Freedom").

 

Yeah, you're not the only one who thought that she looked like she was being hanged. And since it's all but garunteed that she was gonna be dead in THIS take of the story... it really, really does feel like he's rubbing her death in the faces of the fans, or at least was intending to do that. 

 

I just do not get what his damage was regarding her.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Yeah, you're not the only one who thought that she looked like she was being hanged. And since it's all but garunteed that she was gonna be dead in THIS take of the story... it really, really does feel like he's rubbing her death in the faces of the fans, or at least was intending to do that. 

 

I just do not get what his damage was regarding her.

SHE GOT IN THE WAY OF PROGRESS! HIS FAME AND FORTUNE AWAITED HIM!

 

/sarcasm

[Zaysho]

The Substitute Freedom Fighers are closer to screen than the Chaotix. :/

But surprisingly, Knuckles is further back than expected, but Geoffrey is in his place.

Also note that the Downunda Freedom Fighters are just barely within the safe-zone of the image. Oh, and the Ancient Walkers, too (both Gallagher's creations). I probably shouldn't read too much into things, but this is Penders we're talking about...

 

 

SHE GOT IN THE WAY OF PROGRESS! HIS FAME AND FORTUNE AWAITED HIM!

 

/sarcasm

 

I'd actually need to find a source quote, but didn't he use the poor sales of Sally's mini-series as some kind of justification to get rid of her? I could swear I read something like that before.

[horridus]

I'd actually need to find a source quote, but didn't he use the poor sales of Sally's mini-series as some kind of justification to get rid of her? I could swear I read something like that before.

 

I can verify that as ONE of his excuses; that poor sales of the miniseries led him to believing she was unpopular and as such, she had to get the axe. 

[biznizz]

Excuses given to kill Sally include, but aren't limited to:

 

1. Her mini didn't sell that well, leading to concerns of low popularity.

2. The show was off the air for at least 3 years, meaning that weeding out the Freedom Fighters was considered

3. She was an anchor around Sonic's neck, who stunted his growth as a character

4. The book was thought to end around 50 anyway, so might as well give Sonic a cold reason to want to kill Robotnik

5. Sally was superfluous in the grand scheme of things when her father, and later her brother, were introduced into the book

6. Her death would have led to a long story where, when everyone thought she lived, it turned out that she was really an Infiltrator, leading to drama for the book as they have to fully deal with Sally's death.

 

Might have slightly exaggurated some of them, admittedly.

[horridus]

Excuses given to kill Sally include, but aren't limited to:

 

1. Her mini didn't sell that well, leading to concerns of low popularity.

2. The show was off the air for at least 3 years, meaning that weeding out the Freedom Fighters was considered

3. She was an anchor around Sonic's neck, who stunted his growth as a character

4. The book was thought to end around 50 anyway, so might as well give Sonic a cold reason to want to kill Robotnik

5. Sally was superfluous in the grand scheme of things when her father, and later her brother, were introduced into the book

6. Her death would have led to a long story where, when everyone thought she lived, it turned out that she was really an Infiltrator, leading to drama for the book as they have to fully deal with Sally's death.

 

Might have slightly exaggurated some of them, admittedly.

 

1. This one is true. 

2. Hadn't heard this one specifically, but he did mention thinking of killing off Rotor and Antoine due to nebulous 'complaints'. 

3. Ah yes. She 'cramped his style'. Because you know, he TOTALLY did oodles and oodles with Sonic's character when not around Sally. 

4. Myep, that was another one. 

5. Half-true. He felt having Max around made her redundant, somehow, but he was planning on REPLACING her with Elias after her death. 

6. That one wasn't planned ahead and more like him making one last attempt to kill her off for real even after the kibosh was put on it.

 

And finally we have his most recent excuse... that for some reason, she didn't 'work' as a leader going out into the field with Sonic, but leaving her behind while he went out would alienate female leaders. And thus she had to be killed off. He honestly said this in that recent interview that was done.

 

He's given several answers, several excuses. Given how he depicts women in general and the other women in power under his pen (Lupe Roboticized, Lien-Da never gets to be leader under him, Hathor exists to give voice to savage Felidae, Gala-Na just makes things worse), I wonder if he's got some kind of weird problem with the idea of women in charge, which was personified in Sally's entire character somehow. 

[Forte-Metallix]

By that logic, Knuckles should've been killed off, too. His comic was canceled because of poor sales. 

 

But wait! Clearly Knuckles was the most important character, even more than Sonic himself! So of course the logical thing to do was just have Knuckles steal the spotlight in crucial stories like the Adventure adaptation!

 

But Sally? The co-star of the book since day one and the most popular non-video game character in the franchise? Nah, nobody'll miss her. Especially since she now has a brother who's functionally the same except with none of the appeal!

[Zaysho]

I know I'm just looking for logic that isn't there, but I really don't understand how Sally is made redundant by King Max... who appeared well after Sally was established. Not to mention he completely ignores this by creating a brother for her that did not exist in the original show and planned to use him as a replacement. Why wasn't Elias redundant?

 

And if he was planning to kill off the other Freedom Fighters, I can only assume he was planning to replace them with the substitutes. ...So basically he just had a hate-on for anything that wasn't his or blank slate for him to take advantage of.

 

This sort of thing just speaks volumes of how in the wrong line of work he was.

[Disonoid 3000]

By that logic, Knuckles should've been killed off, too. His comic was canceled because of poor sales. 

 

But wait! Clearly Knuckles was the most important character, even more than Sonic himself! So of course the logical thing to do was just have Knuckles steal the spotlight in crucial stories like the Adventure adaptation!

 

But Sally? The co-star of the book since day one and the most popular non-video game character in the franchise? Nah, nobody'll miss her. Especially since she now has a brother who's functionally the same except with none of the appeal!

 

I think Ken tried to excuse the bad Knuckles sales with something about how Wal-Mart didn't display them prominently enough or some bull crud like that. 

[horridus]

I think Ken excused the bad Knuckles sales with something about how Wal-Mart didn't display them prominently enough or some crud like that. 

Yep. And Star Wars comics somehow took attention away from it or some shit. Anything at all so he doesn't have to admit that people just weren't that into it. 

[Disonoid 3000]

And I don't think Ken would really balk much at the idea of killing Knuckles. I really don't think Ken gives the slightest semblance of a care what happens to Knuckles. Knuckles was the key into an already existing book, and a template for him to copy every character from because character design is HAAAAAARD. 

 

So long as Ken has his army of clones, you could probably write in that Knuckles is in some dark pit having his liver eaten every day for eternity and I don't think Ken would move to save him. He'll just move Knuckles #35 into his place. 

[biznizz]

Wait... how the hell does Penders think that Dark Horse Star Wars comics helped kill the Knuckles book?

 

Those two are only comparable in that they were licenced properties!

 

I know I'm just looking for logic that isn't there, but I really don't understand how Sally is made redundant by King Max... who appeared well after Sally was established. Not to mention he completely ignores this by creating a brother for her that did not exist in the original show and planned to use him as a replacement. Why wasn't Elias redundant?

 

Because, Sally was too young to properly rule a country!!! And Elias had tons of story potential from his backstory and interactions with Sonic and the Freedom Fighters! Don't you know that Ken had a plan for everything? It's just that Bollers had the gall to be given the book which screwed up Ken's plans!! ITS NOT HIS FAULT, REALLY!!!11

 

 

And if he was planning to kill off the other Freedom Fighters, I can only assume he was planning to replace them with the substitutes. ...So basically he just had a hate-on for anything that wasn't his or blank slate for him to take advantage of.

 

Don't you think that people would have much more preferred:

 

Dylan "Warrior Poet who isn't much of a warrior and never tells any poetry",

 

Penelope "Token Girl Character designed to ne Sonic and/or Knuckles love interest",

 

Hamlin "Jackass PIg WIth A Heart Of... Gold, I Guess?",

 

Bald Eagle Who Nobody Remembers,

 

and Larry "Screw You Angelo" Lynx

 

...MORE than the SatAM cast? Think of the merchandise possibilities? They could even lead to Sonic getting his own show or movie!!

[Wittymations]

Wait... how the hell does Penders think that Dark Horse Star Wars comics helped kill the Knuckles book?

Well, Ken did do everything possible to try to make this entire book a SciFi thing. The only thing he didn't do is set up a galactic adventure.

So, in his mind, this is Star Wars type stuff.

[horridus]

Well, Ken did do everything possible to try to make this entire book a SciFi thing. The only thing he didn't do is set up a galactic adventure.

So, in his mind, this is Star Wars type stuff.

 

According to him he'd try to claim it more along the lines of 'Star Trek', as he's very vocal about being a Trekkie... even though the Broterhood come off as a rent-a-Jedi Order, complete with the 'Chaos Force'...

[Verb & Noun]

Can we just keep a running list of things Pendejo has lifted from because it seems like more and more are discovered every day.

 

Apparently the plane in Pendejo's 'Lost Ones' comic is lifted right out of 'Thunderbirds'.

[biznizz]

I tried, but honestly it seemed like a wasted effort.

 

Not quite 'counting grains of sand on the beach' but similar.

 

Unless someone makes an editable GoogleDocs so people can add to the list so it's not just one person.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

And I don't think Ken would really balk much at the idea of killing Knuckles. I really don't think Ken gives the slightest semblance of a care what happens to Knuckles. Knuckles was the key into an already existing book, and a template for him to copy every character from because character design is HAAAAAARD. 

 

So long as Ken has his army of clones, you could probably write in that Knuckles is in some dark pit having his liver eaten every day for eternity and I don't think Ken would move to save him. He'll just move Knuckles #35 into his place. 

 

I hate to say this, but I actually think at least some of the echidna characters in Penders' book were designed by Spaz. At least, I recently read from the wiki that Spaz designed Kragok and Lien-Da...I don't know about every last one.

 

But I enthusiastically agree that Penders didn't truly care about Knuckles. If he did, he would actually bother to make what he wrote at least mildly related to the character as he was depicted in the games instead of just writing a sci-fi plotline that had nothing to do with Knuckles or Angel Island as they were created, and he wouldn't constantly be making Archimedes or the Brotherhood of Guardians or whoever save the day instead of him. Ken Penders doesn't care about Knuckles or echidnas, just that they serve as vehicles for him to "make an impact" with his ideas.

 

To be fair, I haven't read very many of his Knuckles comics yet. In the past, I actually thought the idea of Knuckles having his own elaborate mythos with a whole slew of echidna characters was extremely cool...but it's becoming harder and harder to maintain even a shred of enthusiasm as I realize more and more that the execution was just lousy. It's sad, because if they were actually handled well his ideas could've turned out to be really interesting. 

 

Take the Dark Legion, for example. I've always liked the idea of the Dark Legion ever since I heard of them, long before I ever read any comics. Evil cyborg echidnas? It doesn't get much better than that, right? Just a look at the margins of my old homework for proof of my love - you'll find a bevy of legionnaires courtesy of me, each with their own unique and sometimes rather goofy cybernetic parts and often carrying on little conversations that betrayed a lot of personality.

 

...Of course, in the actual comics, you couldn't even SEE the darn guys most of the time - somehow wearing a hood turns your face into this generic boring "villain face" that doesn't resemble an echidna in the slightest, and you certainly can't tell what kind of bionic implants they have most of the time. (Not that the hood was a good idea in the first place - spines are one of the only things that connects Sonic-style echidnas to the animal they're based on, so why cover them up?!) It's hard to imagine that I would've ever become so enamored with the DL if I had actually learned of them from reading the comics as opposed to just hearing about them and imaging what they might be like.

 

Seriously, from what I can tell, these guys were majorly underdeveloped. What was life in the Twilight Zone even like? How do they choose what cybernetic parts to assign to different members? When do these parts get added? Who adds them? Is there a designated surgeon? What's it like growing up in the legion? What kind of education and training do young legionnaires receive? Are there anti-Brotherhood picture books that moms read to their little ones? Did Julie-Su have any friends growing up? What do they eat in the Twilight Zone? Can you think of how interesting the Dark Legion could've been if Penders had bothered answering half of these questions?

 

And yet, sadly, that's not the worst thing about how the DL was handled. The worst part was the origin. The entire reason they exist in the first place.

 

After Dimitri, a single scientist, did something evil using one piece of technology that he and his brother created, the echidna government decided to respond by getting rid of all technology - literally confiscating it from the homes of their citizens. Even stupid stuff like Sega Genesis consoles and VCRs (because they have those in the super-advanced echidna city, lol).

 

 

I just...what...why? Why does "ONE person does something evil with ONE piece of technology" lead to this? How is getting rid of obviously completely innocuous devices going to solve anything? The origin of the Big Bad Evil Echidnas is that they were rebelling against a policy that really was stupid and really did violate their rights? I'm finding it kind of hard to sympathize with the good guys here...

 

Oh, and yeah, I'm new here. Hi.

[biznizz]

Nice to meet you!

 

I also bring up my before-mentioned observation that the Dark Legion's conflict with Modern Echidnopolis should have largely been a non-issue given that the whole damn city had technology up the wazoo, even without the hypocritical Brotherhood of Guardians.

 

FFS, they had a theme park, arcade, cars, and weapons to name a few. The legionization of that politician to make the Legion Android head of government (or whatever) made no sense since he was an apparant anti-tech throwback with tech hypocrite, but he didn't have anything more than any other citizen. Just run on the platform of "Do you really want to listen to this guy? We like tech, you like tech, vote Dimitri!"; would've made more sense.

 

As for the Julie-Su's backstory... we know that she was a pawn her entire life, getting brainwashed at least twice, and the very moment she makes it to the Floating Island, she is Soultouched forcibly into becoming Knuckles' future babymama.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

Yeah, I thought that was the case, though not having read the comics where Echidnaopolis returns yet, I didn't know for sure...

 

It's amazing how Penders' writing just makes less and less sense the more you think about it @_@