Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Forte-Metallix]

I was reading around, is it true that Finitevus IS NOT Ken Penders' creation?

 

I think he was just another background Echidna that Ian gave his own identity. 

[Zaysho]

I was reading around, is it true that Finitevus IS NOT Ken Penders' creation?

 

Yes. He was created/introduced by Karl Bollers.

 

Unfortunately, he's still gone because of the comic's currently policy of not using anything originating from other creators, since apparently their contracts were in dispute as well.

[Gabz Girl]

Basically any Archie OC that wasn't created by Penders but whose creator doesn't work on the Sonic comics anymore, has their characters scrapped as well. A damn shame too since there were lots of great characters that we've lost now thanks to...him. I'm gonna miss Mina so much. T_T

[horridus]

I doubt she'd do more than giving advice...which she might not do anymore of, since it was promptly ignored.

 

Is there anything that can get Penders' mind into reality? I want to believe something is out there, but...

 

I'd like to think if he was told off by someone he professes to respect, like oh say, Stan Lee, then maybe it might actually have an impact. However, given how phony baloney and self-serving his 'respect' tends to be, I think it more likely that he'd just suddenly start talking about the less than stellar portions of Lee's career and call him a backstabber and so forth. 

[Zero Dozer]

Basically any Archie OC that wasn't created by Penders but whose creator doesn't work on the Sonic comics anymore, has their characters scrapped as well. A damn shame too since there were lots of great characters that we've lost now thanks to...him. I'm gonna miss Mina so much. T_T

 

I sure do miss Hope and Finitevus.

And the reboot's Snively is pure shit.

Man, the only thing I liked so far on the reboot is how Flynn gave sequel to Shadow the Hedgehog's story by introducing Eclipse as a new villain.

 

And with these shitty politics, when Flynn leaves Archie (I doubt that he's not tempted to do it), Eclipse will get fucked off along with whatever character he made.

[Zaysho]

I sure do miss Hope and Finitevus.

And the reboot's Snively is pure shit.

Man, the only thing I liked so far on the reboot is how Flynn gave sequel to Shadow the Hedgehog's story by introducing Eclipse as a new villain.

 

And with these shitty politics, when Flynn leaves Archie (I doubt that he's not tempted to do it), Eclipse will get fucked off along with whatever character he made.

 

Actually, given how much of tighter ship Archie and SEGA runs, it's guaranteed that if Flynn were to leave, SEGA would have clear ownership what was created for the book this time. There's much less ambiguity about it now.

 

It really is a shame about Hope and Finitevus, though. I really liked what they brought to the table, and I especially liked Hope's connection to Shadow.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

 

When I first started working on SONIC, neither he or Knuckles had a viable story to work with.

 

Here we go again.

 

Penders, you idiot. I have one picture that proves you 100% wrong.

 

[Verb & Noun]

I sure do miss Hope and Finitevus.

And the reboot's Snively is pure shit.

Man, the only thing I liked so far on the reboot is how Flynn gave sequel to Shadow the Hedgehog's story by introducing Eclipse as a new villain.

 

And with these shitty politics, when Flynn leaves Archie (I doubt that he's not tempted to do it), Eclipse will get fucked off along with whatever character he made.

 

Miss various characters too, but the Archie Sonic thread may be the more appropriate place to talk about this stuff. This is less about the current comics and more about discussing Pendejo and his work.

 

Zaysho is right though, with what Ian has said in regard to his own contracts anything he makes is owned by the company so you wouldn't have to worry about the character being 'fucked off'.

[Zero Dozer]

And yet we will never have Penders/Bollers' creations back.

[Verb & Noun]

That's been established, yes

[horridus]

And yet we will never have Penders/Bollers' creations back.

 

Yes. They are gone until further notice, and barring a miracle they're not coming back. I don't like it either and there's plenty about the reboot I'm not fond of, but it is what it is, and I'd rather the comic continue on rather than just going by the wayside. If you don't like what it's become, fine, that's your right and I'm sorry it's not working out for you. But bringing it up constantly isn't going to change anything.

[Tenko]

It is interesting when the topic is brought up tho that besides Julie-Su, and Enerjak usually there doesn't seem to be much outcry for many of Penders actual created characters to be brought back. Usually its Mina, Finetivus, Mammoth Mogul etc being mentioned. Even Lara-Su the one he's basing this comic series on doesn't get brought up all too often in the "I miss this character" type discussions. Yet he still has this arrogant aura around him with the preconception that everyone is in an outcry, kicking up a ruckus and badly wants "his" characters back.

Then again he usually implies that its this silent majority of fans that are hidden away and don't come out even to debate online or show any form of support.

[horridus]

It is interesting when the topic is brought up tho that besides Julie-Su, and Enerjak usually there doesn't seem to be much outcry for many of Penders actual created characters to be brought back. Usually its Mina, Finetivus, Mammoth Mogul etc being mentioned. Even Lara-Su the one he's basing this comic series on doesn't get brought up all too often in the "I miss this character" type discussions. Yet he still has this arrogant aura around him with the preconception that everyone is in an outcry, kicking up a ruckus and badly wants "his" characters back.

Then again he usually implies that its this silent majority of fans that are hidden away and don't come out even to debate online or show any form of support.

[RowdyAnn]

I'll admit that other than the comics one game in the last decade, I have been slowly letting go. I haven't been active on any sort of my fan forum in at least five.

If anything, I hoped that this book had been released for all the rattling Penders caused. I planned to pull it off the bookshelf at the local bookstore (should they carry it), browse through the pages, and reshelf it.

After following this thread and seeing the flip flopping, the plagiarism, bad artwork, and such - I really can't see this getting past the first volume let alone an entire franchise.

I may have been quiet on the Sonic front, but not one of his 'silent majority.'

[Neon Zephyr]

Eh, I've seen a few others mentioned from time to time (Scourge--tho I think he hardly counts--for one). I remember hearing about Director Who more than once, but then he was a joke character in one panel of a story Ken only co-wrote in the book's early days, if I recall; the fans that wanted him back was 100% because of Ian's writing (or because of his design by Evan Stanley, which I gotta say, is still one of my favorite designs for a comic-exclusive Sonic character). I know I personally would like Elias and Remington back (though, the latter is more because of his initial concept [a regular joe/cop, just trying to do his job with all these people with crazy super powers and tech fighting each other all the time] and his design, which I believe was done by either Spaz or Manny Galan, even though it was a little busy for a Sonic character). I know, however, that it'll never happen, and I don't want Archie to bend to this man's unreasonable demands just to give us back non-essential characters, no matter how much I love them.

 

But, yeah, I only ever hear of a couple of characters that Penders created that anyone really wants back (probably because hoooooly shit, this guy created waaaay too many Echidnas what the heck. No wonder I hardly cared when Albion was nuked), while I hear about others all the time. Finitevus is a highly popular one, despite being an Echidna. I hear about Mina all the time, too. Then there's Hope, who I've seen discussed numerous times in just the past 6mo--year. I could go on.

 

Beyond those couple we've mentioned (and I'm apparently pretty much the only Remington fan anymore?), no one seems to really want the Echidnas back. Much at all. Not Penders' anyway; I've even seen some say that they'd much rather have the Nocturnus than the Dark Legion, even with a different writer.  

 

I've been in a number of fandoms over the years. Some of them quite small. And, you know what? THEY SOUGHT EACH OTHER OUT ONLINE. Fandom tends to desire other fans to talk about their shared interest with. It's a natural progression; they seek one another. If there were *that* many fans of Penders, as he's claimed, then we'd have heard from a lot more than the small handful (one or two of which I'm not entirely convinced isn't just BobR or someone sucking up to make Penders look better) SOMEWHERE online. I mean, when have you ever heard of a Xenin fan? Too obscure? Okay, then: Sojourner (Spectre's son). In the, what, fifteen, years of the comic's run, I've met one person who seemed to be a fan, who wasn't just a "I like the Brotherhood in general" person (and those I've met between five-to-ten).

 

Most of the echidna fan art I've seen have been from the same group of people, too. And, a couple of them have admitted to hating the Echidnas, at least when Penders wrote them. So. Yeah. There's that. 

 

 

@Nightwing: YES. I've only read a little bit of STC so far, kinda randomly, but Knuckles's stories in that were pretty great from what I've seen. Like, I actually want to know what the writer(s? I think there was one head writer when Fleetway was pulled) had in store for him later on. And, I'm really curious about Dr. Zachary and what happened to the Echidnas and all of that. Because the writers actually built upon the source material and kept true to the spirit, from what I've seen (like, Yeah, Zachary was another Echidna, but he was the only other one in the present, and he was shortly after established as a bad guy and brought up questions as to the Echidnas' morality as a whole, and so forth. His presence *built upon* the Echidnas being gone, instead of just wiping it aside) And the one with the dino spirits and such? Was completely about the fallout and consequences Knuckles dealt with just by being the last Echidna on Mobius. And there was some really nice art, too. I totally believe that Fleetway only stopped because the editor/publisher/whoever screwed up by gradually turning it into just reprints. 

 

Not that Penders would ever understand that. Even though Fleetway lasted over 200 issues, even with the reprint-caused decline, he just waves it off. And, it managed to sell enough to keep going until that point, even though it was published fortnightly instead of monthly (unless that's considered normal in the UK. Dunno, but I do know that buying even a single monthly comic as a kid was usually pretty hard to convince my mother for). Whereas he was asking fans to buy two copies of his Knuckles book to artificially increase sales enough to keep it from being cancelled. Which of course wasn't his fault, even though he tries to claim that Fleetway's was their writer's. 

 

I'm also fairly certain that the writers for STC actually talked to each other, and I know one of them even told Ian that he could use the Brotherhood of Metallix if he wanted (even if Sega would never okay it). So, they actually care about the book they were writing. Which was, you know, Sonic the Hedgehog and not Furry Sci-Fi Lite Soap Opera. And, I've seen several of the Fleetway creatives even praise STC-O and encouraged them to continue carrying on the world, characters, and stories they'd started. 

 

I'm so sorry this got much longer than I planned.

[Mauro Fonseca]

The plans for Knuckles were basically to push the Byronic tragic hero angle further, from what we know. Sonic would have an arc adventuring with Tikal where he'd discover that the Echidnas had been taken as slaves by the Drakons and spread throughout the galaxy, and so much time had passed that they had mingled and adapted to the local cultures meanwhile, no longer identifying as one civilization.

 

In other words, Knuckles (who had remained in cryosleep multiple times and at one point there was damage in the process which made him amnesic) has spent his life guarding the Island and waiting for a people that no longer exist and will never return, and it wouldn't even be him that'd discover this but Sonic and Tikal.

 

Uuuuh, as for Zachary, IIRC it was roughly the basic setup from StC-O- he'd get Robotnik out of an asylum and join forces, but you'll do better to search the old mailing lists to confirm.

 

And yes, the writers in StC did keep tabs on each other for bigger stories. They generally had some characters that the other wouldn't write, mind- Kitching never wrote Tekno as far as I recall- but they'd try and sync their plots and stories so you wouldn't have Sonic in another dimension in the same issue as he's in Mobius. It's what led to some cool shit like the build-up to #100.

 

They also tried to keep close to what they knew of the games out of their own work ethic (IE this is an adaptation we're going to actually try and adapt it) instead of needing SEGA breathing down their necks and crying about it.

[Neon Zephyr]

Huh. I think I like that about the Echidnas, even if it's kinda sad. It's a bit better than the "Easy out" of just annihilating them, but keeps Knuckles's "last of his kind" thing intact. (Not sure how I feel about the Drakons as a thing, yet. Still need to properly read STC's whole run, before I judge that.) 

 

I remember hearing that the Adventure adaptation had some variations (Chaos was a Drakon-created monster, from what I heard), but what I saw still showed the present-day threat of Chaos and the past events as the two main focuses. And Knuckles didn't do Super Sonic's job.

 

Nothing makes me mad in quite the same way as when Penders tries to claim that there wasn't "enough" source material or whatever, when he never even really tried to use/incorporate, or even understand, the source. Just looking at his map for Angel Island makes my jaw clench; that zone placement, I mean, would it be so hard to just. Get a play order of the levels from S3&K and at LEAST place them in a logical manner from that? Even if he so refused to play the games he was writing a comic for.

[Gabz Girl]

The only Penders-made character I'm gonna miss is Lien-Da, cos she was a badass. Would've been really cool to see her with a more Sega design, alongside Mina and the others. 8(

 

Everyone else though was either too bland or felt like a Mary-Sue.

[Mauro Fonseca]

StC's Adventure adaptation is a legit case of "there wasn't enough story". Specifically, they had a rough outline of the story (at least enough to know there were past echidnas, ruled by Pachacamac who was spelled Pochacamac, there was a Tikal, and Robotnik had a new jacket, plus a monster named Chaos in a city and the Floating Island falling, also a big cat named Big- they didn't know about Gamma at all), and some blurry images of the new designs, including a very blurry jpeg of Chaos, leading to them having to go "well let's try and interpret this" and bam, Chaos is completely different. 

[Verb & Noun]

Having grown up with the Archie comics, I always found the Fleetway comics to be a very interesting take on things. Overall it's hard for me to say if I enjoyed them better than I've enjoyed Archie, since there's lots of factors to take into account (the 'novelty' of Fleetway compared to the nostalgia of Archie).

 

That said, I can say absolutely without a doubt that I enjoyed the Fleetway Knuckles stories above and beyond the Archie Knuckles stories. The Archie Knuckles stories turned me off entirely on the character, while the Fleetway ones helped me find a new appreciation for him, as I extremely enjoyed the stories of Knuckles's adventures to forge a new Master Emerald over, say, Knuckles the subject of constant voyeurism.

[horridus]

Having grown up with the Archie comics, I always found the Fleetway comics to be a very interesting take on things. Overall it's hard for me to say if I enjoyed them better than I've enjoyed Archie, since there's lots of factors to take into account (the 'novelty' of Fleetway compared to the nostalgia of Archie).

 

That said, I can say absolutely without a doubt that I enjoyed the Fleetway Knuckles stories above and beyond the Archie Knuckles stories. The Archie Knuckles stories turned me off entirely on the character, while the Fleetway ones helped me find a new appreciation for him, as I extremely enjoyed the stories of Knuckles's adventures to forge a new Master Emerald over, say, Knuckles the subject of constant voyeurism.

[Osmium]

StC's Adventure adaptation is a legit case of "there wasn't enough story". Specifically, they had a rough outline of the story (at least enough to know there were past echidnas, ruled by Pachacamac who was spelled Pochacamac, there was a Tikal, and Robotnik had a new jacket, plus a monster named Chaos in a city and the Floating Island falling, also a big cat named Big- they didn't know about Gamma at all), and some blurry images of the new designs, including a very blurry jpeg of Chaos, leading to them having to go "well let's try and interpret this" and bam, Chaos is completely different. 

I heard somewhere that the adaptation was supposed to be longer, but Fleetway decided to go full reprint so Nigel had to cram the story into a few issues. 

That bothers me because there were a lot of unsolved things like how Angel Island sank and nothing was ever said about it again. 

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

About the comics, I have read some of the old ones as well as the new ones, and I'm fine with the new redesigns and the story. 

 

Lara-Su in The Silver Saga was okay, and Mina was fine too. I liked Scrouge to a certain extent.

 

Some of the old stories were okay. However, I'll be missing Shard though.

[Tenko]

The Shard and Scourge thing always confuses me. His claim to Scourge was that he originated from an "original" character he introduced, Evil Sonic. His claim being that you could trace Scourge back to this character of his and that in turn made it his property regardless of the changes.

Yet Shard, a character who can be clearly traced back to the original Metal Sonic from #25 (pretty sure its even spelt out in black and white a few times via editors notes abd characters themselves), is his property because he was changed into a new look original design body and had a power source Penders created.

So the argument he uses to claim Scourge somehow doesn't work in reverse when Shard is pointed out to have originated from a Sega owned and licenced character in Metal Sonic.

I'm just sick of the guy getting away with having his cake and eating it too. I realize Sega doesn't want to go back to court without a good reason, but somebody's gota give the guy his eventual comeuppance and I damn well good its them!!

[SBR2]

I'm going to be 100% honest I never really cared for many of the comic exclusive characters.

 

The Echidna's bored me with the exception of Finitevus but that's because he was mostly developed by Ian Flynn plus y'know he was interesting. Geoffrey was a pedo asshole who was only ever interesting in the last five issues he appeared in. Mina was...there I guess. 

 

Scourge was never too amazing IMHO. Fiona was alright though again mostly what Flynn did with her (Unpopular I know).

 

Elias wasn't too bad though. Probably because I always imagined him with Cam Clarke's voice. 

 

I grew up reading about a lot of these characters (First issue I began following the series at was #144) but they honestly never appealed to me. I got into the book for Sonic and grew to like the Freedom Fighters. But a lot of the Original Character I could take or leave.

 

In the new continuity there haven't been any characters I feel are disposable or bland. They've all felt unique and add to the over all world far better than the random characters thrown at the book in the past.