Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Zero Dozer]

I get how people hate Penders and how bad he wrote his own characters (and everyone else), but still, I like the characters he made, being Julie-Su and Lien-Da prime examples, especially under Ian Flynn.

I can't take Relic on that position as if Flynn was trying to replace Julie that way. Julie REALLY was fit for being Knuckles' pair.

Note: I find a great deal of the Fleetway continuity a load of bullcrap. Starting with Sonic's origin and going through Shadow's origins as of lately.

[Verb & Noun]

Relic is nothing like Julie-Su and not intended to take Julie-Su's place. Likewise I'd argue some things about Julie-Su but I'd just be saying things I've said many times already.

 

You seem a bit angry.

[biznizz]

Except neither Ian nor fans WANT Relic to take Julie-Su's place and become Knux's girlfriend. At least not for a long while; shipping wars has burned Ian out on most romances.

Whenever I hear about people missing the old Pen characters, they usually say it's because they LIKED the concept or how Ian wrote them. It's never how Pen wrote them or had them say or act. In fact, the only person like that whom I can recall is our reclusive troll Naugus... I mean FuhrerMustang, who believes Geoffrey was the best character in the book (only when Pen and maybe Karl wrote him); how Geoffrey was Sonic's greatest rival, more than Knuckles or Shadow, largely due to Endgame and his (preditorial) wooing attempts of Sally.

I am not even kidding.

[horridus]

Except neither Ian nor fans WANT Relic to take Julie-Su's place and become Knux's girlfriend. At least not for a long while; shipping wars has burned Ian out on most romances.

Whenever I hear about people missing the old Pen characters, they usually say it's because they LIKED the concept or how Ian wrote them. It's never how Pen wrote them or had them say or act. In fact, the only person like that whom I can recall is our reclusive troll Naugus... I mean FuhrerMustang, who believes Geoffrey was the best character in the book (only when Pen and maybe Karl wrote him); how Geoffrey was Sonic's greatest rival, more than Knuckles or Shadow, largely due to Endgame and his (preditorial) wooing attempts of Sally.

I am not even kidding.

 

Oh-ho-wow. That's the first and only time I've heard of anyone liking Geoffrey THAT much. 

 

But yeah, count me for the guys who preferred the concepts rather than the presentation. 

 

And as far as pairups go... SEGA does not, repeat, does NOT want their game characters in any steady relationships. Period. End of story. There will be no shipping of Sonic, Knuckles, Tails or anyone else from the games. They're a big bundle of Not Romantic, and frankly given the unbelievable amount of *insanity* that the debate of Who Should Receive Hedgehog Cock has caused, I'd really not blame Flynn for just ignoring it all of his own accord anyway. 

[Lara-Sunders]

I actually really like the idea of Knuckles being paired with Relic, but it would have to be a super gradual and subtle thing for it to be doable, and i accept that it will never happen anytime soon, if at all. I've always wished Julie-Su could have been an independent character, one that didn't exist just to be paired with Knuckles. i like her as a character, but i'd like her a hell of a lot more if she had a character arc and hard time leaving the Dark Legion, not even thinking about being with Knuckles and him being her cool guy friend. this isn't because i ship him with someone else or something silly like that, as i thought this even before i shipped him and Relic, it's because for a "strong and badass female character" there isn't much supporting her character other than soultouch and supposed badassery. shes got such a cool visual design, why can't she have an interesting character arc too? 

 

look, just imagine! what if she was Knuckles rival among the Dark Legion members, the one who always had to go up against him? the two would clash many a time, and in and around those clashes she would observe him and be all "whats this guys problem?" until one situation seperates them both from their group and they have to work together to get back. initially unwilling, the two quickly discover they have no choice but to work together and end up begrudgingly bonding. when they return to their groups, Julie-Su doesn't understand why Knuckles helped her back there and wonders what to do about it. eventually, through many different situations like these, Julie-su chooses to leave the Dark Legion and find her own path, going on a quest to decide whether her family, Knuckles, or a whole new brand of "right" is whats Right to her. she then continues to be a more friendly rival to Knuckles, and helps him and the Freedom Fighters a few times during her journeys until she is offered a spot with the Chaotix, and her and Knuckles become close friends. 

 

i really like the idea of her as a rival character searching for her own path, as opposed to a token girl with little to no reason to leave her family behind. she'd have to discover where her loyalties lie herself, deciding between family and her own morals. this would also be really cool if she didn't have a bad relationship with Lien-Da, and that she has to realize her "loving older sister" is not the great person she thought she was. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

There's three reasons Penders' Julie-Su is so annoying and terrible.

 

1. She was designed to be nothing more than Knuckles' love interest and yet Penders couldn't be actually arsed to give them any chemistry or any reason to fancy each other, other than ''OH SOUL TOUCH, GUESS I'LL LOVE YOU FOREVER PERSON I DON'T KNOW AND HAVE JUST ONLY MET, DESPITE US BOTH BEING ENEMIES''

 

2. Penders tried his hardest to make her into such a fucking mary-sue, including turning Vector into a idiot who's only purpose was to be there to look stupid while Julie-Su kept one uping him and making him look pathetic while she looked awesome.

 

3. Her backstory is so unbelievably convoluted. Between her hating Lien-Da, she joins The Dark Legion anyway, then despite not agreeing with their motives, she still worked with them, then she turned her back on them and gave up her entire life just because of a funny feeling when around Knuckles, only to then be mind wiped back to The Dark Legion, only to once again rejoin Knuckles, to then being revealed that she had kept being mind wiped so she wouldn't leave the Dark Legion, to even that not making sense because clearly Lien-Da and the others hate her anyway so you'd think they'd enjoy the fact she's left so they can kill her next time with an actual reason and UGH IT'S JUST SO CONFUSING.

[horridus]

3. Her backstory is so unbelievably convoluted. Between her hating Lien-Da, she joins The Dark Legion anyway, then despite not agreeing with their motives, she still worked with them, then she turned her back on them and gave up her entire life just because of a funny feeling when around Knuckles, only to then be mind wiped back to The Dark Legion, only to once again rejoin Knuckles, to then being revealed that she had kept being mind wiped so she wouldn't leave the Dark Legion, to even that not making sense because clearly Lien-Da and the others hate her anyway so you'd think they'd enjoy the fact she's left so they can kill her next time with an actual reason and UGH IT'S JUST SO CONFUSING.

 

Ah, not quite. She never 'joined' the Legion, she was literally born into it. She was then mindwiped to forget she was in fact siblings with Lien-Da and Kragok, and then mindwiped YET AGAIN to make her forget her foster family as well. She did however give up the only life she knew because of a funny feeling. Her mindwiping only happened in the past, and her reasons for doing anything still only amounted to the Soul Touch... it's still a pointlessly convoluted backstory, and very, very bad writing. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Yeah, that's the thing. The whole fucking thing is such a mess that I can't even remember the correct order of it.

[Osmium]

Whenever I hear about people missing the old Pen characters, they usually say it's because they LIKED the concept or how Ian wrote them. It's never how Pen wrote them or had them say or act. In fact, the only person like that whom I can recall is our reclusive troll Naugus... I mean FuhrerMustang, who believes Geoffrey was the best character in the book (only when Pen and maybe Karl wrote him); how Geoffrey was Sonic's greatest rival, more than Knuckles or Shadow, largely due to Endgame and his (preditorial) wooing attempts of Sally.

I am not even kidding.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Which as I'll mention again, Penders confirmed recently that by the time of Sonic #44, Geoffrey was in his early 20s (About 21, 22) and at the time, Sally was 16. Which means Penders knowingly paired up a 21/22 Year old with a 16 year old girl, which is made even worse considering Sally never made any advances towards him, that was all Geoffrey who usually appeared on the scene and just up and kissed Sally without her permission,

[Osmium]

The last thing I want in a Sonic the Hedgehog comic is some creepy dude in his 20's hitting on a 16 year old. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

The last thing I want in a Sonic the Hedgehog comic is some creepy dude in his 20's hitting on a 16 year old. 

[Osmium]

But apparently in Penders' mind, that's a totally cool thing that everyone should want to see in Sonic the Hedgehog.

 

Penders is a sick fuck. That's putting it nicely.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I don't have anything against him either. I'm going by what he wrote entirely in the comic, which considering he thinks that an 21/22 year old making moves on a 16 year old against her will of all things is a perfectly normal and acceptable thing, I'm gonna say he's sick.

[biznizz]

"B-but... Sally was all OVER Geoffrey! Don't you remember the end of her mini, where she thinks that instead of her heart having one person in it (Sonic), now there's two (Geoffrey)?"

 

"There are different ages of consent in Knothole/Mobius!"

 

"You shouldn't have such narrow minded cultural differences. Imagine saying what you are saying to someone from another culture in real life!"

[Killtank]

I actually really like the idea of Knuckles being paired with Relic, but it would have to be a super gradual and subtle thing for it to be doable, and i accept that it will never happen anytime soon, if at all. I've always wished Julie-Su could have been an independent character, one that didn't exist just to be paired with Knuckles. i like her as a character, but i'd like her a hell of a lot more if she had a character arc and hard time leaving the Dark Legion, not even thinking about being with Knuckles and him being her cool guy friend. this isn't because i ship him with someone else or something silly like that, as i thought this even before i shipped him and Relic, it's because for a "strong and badass female character" there isn't much supporting her character other than soultouch and supposed badassery. shes got such a cool visual design, why can't she have an interesting character arc too? 

 

look, just imagine! what if she was Knuckles rival among the Dark Legion members, the one who always had to go up against him? the two would clash many a time, and in and around those clashes she would observe him and be all "whats this guys problem?" until one situation seperates them both from their group and they have to work together to get back. initially unwilling, the two quickly discover they have no choice but to work together and end up begrudgingly bonding. when they return to their groups, Julie-Su doesn't understand why Knuckles helped her back there and wonders what to do about it. eventually, through many different situations like these, Julie-su chooses to leave the Dark Legion and find her own path, going on a quest to decide whether her family, Knuckles, or a whole new brand of "right" is whats Right to her. she then continues to be a more friendly rival to Knuckles, and helps him and the Freedom Fighters a few times during her journeys until she is offered a spot with the Chaotix, and her and Knuckles become close friends. 

 

i really like the idea of her as a rival character searching for her own path, as opposed to a token girl with little to no reason to leave her family behind. she'd have to discover where her loyalties lie herself, deciding between family and her own morals. this would also be really cool if she didn't have a bad relationship with Lien-Da, and that she has to realize her "loving older sister" is not the great person she thought she was. 

[Osmium]

 

Julie-Su would start as an enemy, begrudgingly side with Knuckles for the sake of survival, and then eventually leave the only life she's ever known in an effort to understand more about her place in the world. Some time would pass and they'd become allies in a much bigger struggle, they would form an intimate bond built on trust and shared ideals, and then later become a couple.

 

Ken forewent everything that might have made her own character in favor of having her chase after Knuckles from the very start. It's impotent, unimaginative storytelling to have her suddenly attracted to Knuckles after being torn asunder by some mystical hormonal imbalance. It's not only lazy to put her in this position, it's also incredibly sexist. He wasted the change to make Juile-Su into a riveting and intricately characterized female protagonist, but he blew it in order to focus on his incredibly clumsy and contrived attempts at world building.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

On the Ken Penders newsfront, we have some random guy asking Penders why he took Jules and Shard away and Penders taking a potshot at both Archie and Sega.

 

For the antics 

 

 

if shard metal sonic was not you're character why is he never coming back is it because the green gem on him ?

[horridus]

Ken forewent everything that might have made her own character in favor of having her chase after Knuckles from the very start. It's impotent, unimaginative storytelling to have her suddenly attracted to Knuckles after being torn asunder by some mystical hormonal imbalance. It's not only lazy to put her in this position, it's also incredibly sexist. He wasted the change to make Juile-Su into a riveting and intricately characterized female protagonist, but he blew it in order to focus on his incredibly clumsy and contrived attempts at world building. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I just love how he keeps tagging Archie and Sega, as if they are really going to get slightly annoyed by his stupid ramblings and reply back to him or something.

[horridus]

I just love how he keeps tagging Archie and Sega, as if they are really going to get slightly annoyed by his stupid ramblings and reply back to him or something.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

He's just so petty. Especially with that final ''Why am I not surprised?''. It just makes him look sad.

[Osmium]

He sounds like a fucking spoiled child who tries to blame things on his parents when he knows it's his fault and tries to make everyone feel sorry for him.

[Zaysho]

"That's a question only the people at @ArchieComics and @SEGA can answer as anything I say would only be speculation." (source)

 

AHAHAHAHA

 

Sure thing, Pen. You have no idea, SEGA and Archie are just being spiteful because they're jealous of the creative mind that is Ken Penders, who is second only to Jack Kirby. Now we know!

 

I realize he can't talk about the court case, I'm sure that's part of the settlement, but for fuck's sake can he not keep poking the bear with these @replies? It won't surprise me when it bites him in the ass in one of these days, and I'll be laughing 'til I can't breathe.

 

Oh, hey, there's MORE gold though. I'm going to assemble some tweets real quick (I have too much patience to do this, I don't know why).

 

 

Your average person doesn't pick up a video game for the story. They pick it up for the game-playing experience. No one picked up the first Sonic game for the story. There wasn't any. I actually don't advocate deviating from the source material as long as you have something substantive to work with. When I first started working on SONIC, neither he or Knuckles had a viable story to work with.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Zaysho

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Theres also the basic origin of Sonic that Sega more or less treated as canon at that time: I.E, Robotnik was originally a good scientist trying to stop the spread of evil only for an invention or backfire on both him and Sonic, giving Sonic his speed and turning Robotnik evil.

But no, clearly that's no guideline at all.