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The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

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I remember Valentino. Even overlooking the Image crossover, he was also an odd duck when he did his few pieces. He drew Sally's story in Girl's Rule where Pen had her bathing in the Source of All.

Of all the sexualized Sally's I can think of, that was perhaps the only censored in reprints (with her wearing her vest), if only because Ken wrote a story where it appeared that 16 year old Sally Acorn was SKINNY DIPPING IN A POOL OF MAGICAL HONEY.

Pen, what the hell is wrong with you?

 

In some ways, I find it odd that people take issue with Sally not wearing her vest when... she didn't for the first year of the book (due to working with the old designs), and in 20 years, nobody complained that that was all she wore. They only reason for her update was because Archie wanted their cast to conform to SEGA design conventions (the complaints that followed are something else, though). I just find the reprint an odd case of censorship looking at the big picture.

 

That said, thinking about it the way you described (after laughing my head off)... yeah, it sorta makes sense when you put it that way, especially if this story had no ties to Sonic.

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In some ways, I find it odd that people take issue with Sally not wearing her vest when... she didn't for the first year of the book (due to working with the old designs), and in 20 years, nobody complained that that was all she wore. They only reason for her update was because Archie wanted their cast to conform to SEGA design conventions (the complaints that followed are something else, though). I just find the reprint an odd case of censorship looking at the big picture.

 

That said, thinking about it the way you described (after laughing my head off)... yeah, it sorta makes sense when you put it that way, especially if this story had no ties to Sonic.

 

Not true. There were constant jokes made about it too. 

 

Butler's gotten better, but now he just copies Yardley's art style as best he can. His Sonic Boom #5 issue was very on-model.

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Most of the complaints about Sally's attire was turn of the millennia recent, when she was more often sexualized by artists like Axer or Butler. In the early days, Sally was more cute than 'sexual' when drawn by people like Manak or Mawhinney. It's how the curves are emphasized where the complaints come in.

One of the most bizarre outspoken detractors about Sally's design was from a DA artist called Gameboysage who seems to have a fixation on female furries who go pantsless, even getting others to edit Rafa's artwork to remove her shorts. (S)he also gave support to Penders during the lawsuit because they hated Mecha-Sally's redesign and how it would lead to her regular design having the top and shorts. They also cancelled their subscription during Countdown to Chaos when Sally was reintroduced.

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Most of the complaints about Sally's attire was turn of the millennia recent, when she was more often sexualized by artists like Axer or Butler. In the early days, Sally was more cute than 'sexual' when drawn by people like Manak or Mawhinney. It's how the curves are emphasized where the complaints come in.

One of the most bizarre outspoken detractors about Sally's design was from a DA artist called Gameboysage who seems to have a fixation on female furries who go pantsless, even getting others to edit Rafa's artwork to remove her shorts. (S)he also gave support to Penders during the lawsuit because they hated Mecha-Sally's redesign and how it would lead to her regular design having the top and shorts. They also cancelled their subscription during Countdown to Chaos when Sally was reintroduced.

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I remember Valentino. Even overlooking the Image crossover, he was also an odd duck when he did his few pieces. He drew Sally's story in Girl's Rule where Pen had her bathing in the Source of All.

Of all the sexualized Sally's I can think of, that was perhaps the only censored in reprints (with her wearing her vest), if only because Ken wrote a story where it appeared that 16 year old Sally Acorn was SKINNY DIPPING IN A POOL OF MAGICAL HONEY.

Pen, what the hell is wrong with you?

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To get things a bit back on track, we have Penders ruminating over the recent decision by Archie to Kickstart their new Archie relaunch, with him ludicrously suggesting the response their getting is why 'he never considered it', even though the reason for the negative reaction is due to the fact that as a major company Archie shouldn't need to do this. Penders himsef would be in a better position to benefit from Kickstarter... well, he would have been if he hadn't done all the crap he did, but still.

 

And surprisingly enough, the guy who made his CGI pics is now asking about why he hasn't done Kickstarter. 

 

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/597858903657844736

 

This is notable since it's the first time I've ever seen him actually interact with Penders at all. Personally I think he's kind of doomed if he's trying to convince Penders about the benefits of kickstarter... Penders does not, repeat, NOT grasp how the web has aided the independent comics scene, like even remotely.  

 

Edit: And not mere moments after posting that, he's offered up another excuse.

 

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/597860388022059008

 

Really now? You're constantly talking about stuff like apps and digital comics and spinoff materials and crap. In fact, you often talk about incentives more than the actual product. Why so shy now?

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I'd be willing to bet money that at least part of the real reason he doesn't even try kickstarter is because he doesn't want his project sitting there with no or very, very little money pledged. Donating would require no interaction with other people, so he couldn't pull the "They're just too mature to talk to other people" card, and it'd be pretty solid proof no one's interested.

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I'd be willing to bet money that at least part of the real reason he doesn't even try kickstarter is because he doesn't want his project sitting there with no or very, very little money pledged. Donating would require no interaction with other people, so he couldn't pull the "They're just too mature to talk to other people" card, and it'd be pretty solid proof no one's interested.

 

Pfft, yeah. That WOULD make it a bit difficult to continually justify that there's 'real interest' in his current project... course, the fact that those stupid patches and phone cases are STILL unsold doesn't seem to do much to put a dent in his belief that there are truly lots and lots of people out there just waiting to see the Mary-Sue Lara-Su Chronicles 

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Other than Archie's attempt, just what IS Ken's opinion on crowdfunding like Kickstarter and Indiegogo?

He seems the type of person who would think it was "e-begging" like Asaleri and Archfiend accused James Rolf of doing when Rolf was making the AVGN movie.

The man already has shown he has many outdated views like that, especially with economics from the 90's compared to today.

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Other than Archie's attempt, just what IS Ken's opinion on crowdfunding like Kickstarter and Indiegogo?

He seems the type of person who would think it was "e-begging" like Asaleri and Archfiend accused James Rolf of doing when Rolf was making the AVGN movie.

The man already has shown he has many outdated views like that, especially with economics from the 90's compared to today.

 

From what I've managed to gather, I don't think he really understands it enough to honestly give it a go. He made a big ass speech once about how comics were changing, and really didn't seem to grasp how the internet and programs like kickstarter were actually making things easier for independent creators, still operating under the logic that things were roughly the same as when he had entered comics. 

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''BUT guys! THE PENDERS TOLD US THAT SPIDEY MUN WILL BE WRITTEN BY SOME RANDOM STARTER IN A GARAGE! HE MUST BE CORRECT!''

 

Penders wouldn't get a penny off Kickstarter or IndieGoGo, he might get a tiny selection of people but it would only end up being clear cut proof that no one cares about this book

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''BUT guys! THE PENDERS TOLD US THAT SPIDEY MUN WILL BE WRITTEN BY SOME RANDOM STARTER IN A GARAGE! HE MUST BE CORRECT!''

 

Penders wouldn't get a penny off Kickstarter or IndieGoGo, he might get a tiny selection of people but it would only end up being clear cut proof that no one cares about this book

 

Especially with the reputation that he's got. 

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I don't know. He may have a bit of success on Kickstarter (to a point) if only from people who are curious to see the project actually get anywhere, not necessarily fans. After all, the amount of people with a morbid interest in his work is significantly higher than the amount of people who are actually fans.

 

It all depends on how much he asks for, really. LS-C isn't a Yooka-Laylee type situation and I don't see people chomping at the bit for his work. But if his asking price is low enough, I can see it funded purely through rubberneckers.

 

That said, Kickstarter also requires you show examples of the work, and considering the blazing fast pace he's set so far I'm not sure he'd have enough to present himself properly.

 

Also another thing about Kickstarter is that he'd be expected to actually finish shit.

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Except neither Ian nor fans WANT Relic to take Julie-Su's place and become Knux's girlfriend. At least not for a long while; shipping wars has burned Ian out on most romances.

Whenever I hear about people missing the old Pen characters, they usually say it's because they LIKED the concept or how Ian wrote them. It's never how Pen wrote them or had them say or act. In fact, the only person like that whom I can recall is our reclusive troll Naugus... I mean FuhrerMustang, who believes Geoffrey was the best character in the book (only when Pen and maybe Karl wrote him); how Geoffrey was Sonic's greatest rival, more than Knuckles or Shadow, largely due to Endgame and his (preditorial) wooing attempts of Sally.

I am not even kidding.

I sure did like the Dark Legion's concept and characters. It gave Knuckles his own things to do instead of fucking orbiting around Sonic like an idiot as in Lost World.

Also, Lien-Da. She's badass if portrayed right. Dimitri and Enerjak also make fantastic story points for the Echidna culture. Flynn was sorta the best one to deal with these and any other of Penders' content. Good thing he's dealing with Gizoids (Like Relic's) on the reboot.

 

I tell ya: Penders had good concepts, but he is a horrendously bad story writer. Flynn got that part of the job covered before the reboot.

Shit, I could write Julie-Su's story a hell of a lot better than Penders did. Which takes me to the next quote.

 

I actually really like the idea of Knuckles being paired with Relic, but it would have to be a super gradual and subtle thing for it to be doable, and i accept that it will never happen anytime soon, if at all. I've always wished Julie-Su could have been an independent character, one that didn't exist just to be paired with Knuckles. i like her as a character, but i'd like her a hell of a lot more if she had a character arc and hard time leaving the Dark Legion, not even thinking about being with Knuckles and him being her cool guy friend. this isn't because i ship him with someone else or something silly like that, as i thought this even before i shipped him and Relic, it's because for a "strong and badass female character" there isn't much supporting her character other than soultouch and supposed badassery. shes got such a cool visual design, why can't she have an interesting character arc too? 

 

look, just imagine! what if she was Knuckles rival among the Dark Legion members, the one who always had to go up against him? the two would clash many a time, and in and around those clashes she would observe him and be all "whats this guys problem?" until one situation seperates them both from their group and they have to work together to get back. initially unwilling, the two quickly discover they have no choice but to work together and end up begrudgingly bonding. when they return to their groups, Julie-Su doesn't understand why Knuckles helped her back there and wonders what to do about it. eventually, through many different situations like these, Julie-su chooses to leave the Dark Legion and find her own path, going on a quest to decide whether her family, Knuckles, or a whole new brand of "right" is whats Right to her. she then continues to be a more friendly rival to Knuckles, and helps him and the Freedom Fighters a few times during her journeys until she is offered a spot with the Chaotix, and her and Knuckles become close friends. 

 

i really like the idea of her as a rival character searching for her own path, as opposed to a token girl with little to no reason to leave her family behind. she'd have to discover where her loyalties lie herself, deciding between family and her own morals. this would also be really cool if she didn't have a bad relationship with Lien-Da, and that she has to realize her "loving older sister" is not the great person she thought she was. 

I approve that idea. If I worked at SEGA and fulfilled my ambitions at toppling Iizuka out of Sonic Team, I would make some plays to restructure the Sonic world. I had my plans for Julie-Su (and a lot of negotiating with Penders, because hostile measures wouldn't end well), but you nailed it better than me.

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Some fun statistics.

 

Stories written by Ken Penders

 

Sonic the Hedgehog: 117

 

Knuckles the Echidna: 41 (mini and ongoing)

 

Sonic Misc: 16

 

The Lost Ones: 1

 

Total: 175

 

Published stories written by Ian Flynn

 

Sonic the Hedgehog: 159

 

Sonic X: 19
 

Sonic Universe: 63

 

Sonic Boom: 6

 

Sonic Misc.: 15

 

Mega Man: 50

 

New Crusaders: ?

 

Salem: 4+

 

Total: 316

 

From his first credit in comics in 1989 (Star Trek wiki Memory Alpha first lists him for 1991's Star Trek: The Next Generation #17, though his personal entry seems to match his website stating that he began with Who's Who In Star Trek in 1987) through Sonic #159 in 2006, Penders has written roughly 175 published stories over 17 years.

 

From his first credit in 2006 with Sonic #160 through Sonic #272 (out this week), Flynn has written more than* 316 published stories over nine years.

 

*These numbers are a bit off since I can't find how many issues of Salem or Crusaders were written by Flynn. These numbers also look at individual stories instead of issues to try to keep things fair. Misc includes specials, magazines, digests, mini series, and whatever else doesn't fit into the normal format. Numbers for Sonic books were counted through Mobius Encyclopaedia entries. Trying to count these all up in my head, the numbers might be a little off, but they should be close to accurate.

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Ian Flynn is like the Geoff Johns of Archie. Pen was more like the company's Rob Liefeld.

 

Rob Liefeld could at least have stuff happen in his books. Pendejo can't even manage that. 

 

Also, yet more from Penders on the Archie announcement.

 

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/598000248447893505

 

With color commentary from the Fuhrer, how lovely. 

 

Why is that an elephant in the room to you, Penders? The announcement was for the Archie series. It had nothing to do with Sonic and thus, nothing to do with Flynn. 

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I am positive that if Ian wanted to write for an Archie Universe title, the company would let him do so. But the man has.... three Sonic titles to juggle (with other writers), the Mega Man book, and at least two outside projects the last time I checked.

 

But what I find disgusting is that Pen is pretending he's actually concerned about Ian, when everything he's done in the past shows that, at best, he considers Ian a scab that squandered everything the Sonic books had previously, his own stuff included.

 

Couldn't help but actually TELL them this. I hate that they made me drag out the useless Twitter.

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I am positive that if Ian wanted to write for an Archie Universe title, the company would let him do so. But the man has.... three Sonic titles to juggle (with other writers), the Mega Man book, and at least two outside projects the last time I checked.

 

But what I find disgusting is that Pen is pretending he's actually concerned about Ian, when everything he's done in the past shows that, at best, he considers Ian a scab that squandered everything the Sonic books had previously, his own stuff included.

 

Couldn't help but actually TELL them this. I hate that they made me drag out the useless Twitter.

 

You know what it is? It's him trying to passive aggressively wish for Flynn to be off Sonic, just so he can crow that Flynn 'jumped ship'. He did the same when Gallagher left Sonic for opportunities at Marvel, phrasing it that very same way, despite the fact Penders himself LEFT because he couldn't take the new standards of his job.

 

And prepare to have your point ignored, selectively interpreted or belittled by the Pendejo. A straight answer is the guy's nemesis. 

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