Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Knowing him, they'd probably just be giant, 3d-modeled plastic rings because that's apparently what "professionalism" looks like

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Cue child labor accusations.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

Guys...I know you're just joking around, but can we please not even think about talking about Penders' family beyond the slightest passing mention? Nothing good ever comes of that.

I really don't understand why that Sonic Live scan was posted in the first place, honestly.

[GamerGirl54321]

If this counts as backseat modding (I think that's the right name?), I'm sorry, but... Can we not be so hostile? I know I don't post here a lot, but this is an interesting topic, and seeing it banned would suck. We've already been warned multiple times...

Anyways, back on topic. What do you want the book to be about?

(Note: I haven't read the comics from his run.)

Personally, I'd like it to be so that Lara-Su loses the race. She runs away because she actually thinks that she's gonna be shunned forever or whatever. Along the way, she runs into Michael Taylor (I'm not even bothering with that lmao), and they discover a secret plot to overthrow Echidna (again not bothering) society. They have to stop it, she grows as a character, and eventually she becomes a person who's fit to be leader.

[Tenko]

I still shudder when he talks about his creators rights, and how he has been so wronged like he is currently. Sure I would be all for it, would have even backed the guy 100%. That is if half his stable of creations weren't palette swaps, and if he wasn't working on a licenced book at the time, and his court "win" wasnt dependant on a weasely loophole being exploited.

My thoughts are, if he's such a lauded creator as he makes himself out to be. If "his" books sold so well, if it was "his" name the kids were looking for on the shelf. If the Sonic/Knuckles franchised characters weren't what brought in the punters. Then why doesn't he just start from scratch? Shouldn't such a highly credited creator have no trouble re-imagining the characters/setting/events/design etc and not have to keep any of his work or specifics from said licenced book? He's got a story to tell sure, but surely being so creative there are so many wide and wonderful ways to tell said stories without them being such an obvious poor man's parallel to the past Sonic comics.

[Tylinos]

Anyways, back on topic. What do you want the book to be about?

(Note: I haven't read the comics from his run.)

Personally, I'd like it to be so that Lara-Su loses the race. She runs away because she actually thinks that she's gonna be shunned forever or whatever. Along the way, she runs into Michael Taylor (I'm not even bothering with that lmao), and they discover a secret plot to overthrow Echidna (again not bothering) society. They have to stop it, she grows as a character, and eventually she becomes a person who's fit to be leader.

 

While I don't have a whole lot of faith in Ken's writing ability these days, based on what he's shown so far, it would be nice if he surprises us with something of higher quality than he's shown off.

And I agree, what you said would honestly be a pretty decent basic plot if that's what he goes for.  Even just having her lose the race would be nice, since it would show her being a flawed teenager who did a very teenagery thing and had to deal with the consequences.

[biznizz]

Aside from (from what Ken thinks is) teenage drama, Lara isn't going to be portrayed as anything less than perfect. She'll get into the bet, go on the waterfall in her Sukini, meet Micheal, then win because she's inherited her father's Chaos Powers and is the new Chosen One who will save the civilization and possibly recreate the planet.

That's pretty much how Ken writes, then and now.

The only question is if Liendiva actually does something worth a sh*t to show that she's a villain. Despite her being on talking terms with Julie because "family forgives family, no matter what", which is such complete horse crap even without the idea that she basically mindraped Julie twice and tried to... kill her(?) on at least a few occasions.

[horridus]

If this counts as backseat modding (I think that's the right name?), I'm sorry, but... Can we not be so hostile? I know I don't post here a lot, but this is an interesting topic, and seeing it banned would suck. We've already been warned multiple times...

Anyways, back on topic. What do you want the book to be about?

(Note: I haven't read the comics from his run.)

Personally, I'd like it to be so that Lara-Su loses the race. She runs away because she actually thinks that she's gonna be shunned forever or whatever. Along the way, she runs into Michael Taylor (I'm not even bothering with that lmao), and they discover a secret plot to overthrow Echidna (again not bothering) society. They have to stop it, she grows as a character, and eventually she becomes a person who's fit to be leader.

You know, I'm not entirely certain what I'd want for the specific plot exactly. A lot of my thoughts have always been in the myriad ways that he could unglue this thing from its origins as and as such, have been more dedicated to revised worldbuilding and the like than the actual plot. It's always been a pretty vague idea of 'something more innovative than what has been demonstrated so far'. 

I still shudder when he talks about his creators rights, and how he has been so wronged like he is currently. Sure I would be all for it, would have even backed the guy 100%. That is if half his stable of creations weren't palette swaps, and if he wasn't working on a licenced book at the time, and his court "win" wasnt dependant on a weasely loophole being exploited.

My thoughts are, if he's such a lauded creator as he makes himself out to be. If "his" books sold so well, if it was "his" name the kids were looking for on the shelf. If the Sonic/Knuckles franchised characters weren't what brought in the punters. Then why doesn't he just start from scratch? Shouldn't such a highly credited creator have no trouble re-imagining the characters/setting/events/design etc and not have to keep any of his work or specifics from said licenced book? He's got a story to tell sure, but surely being so creative there are so many wide and wonderful ways to tell said stories without them being such an obvious poor man's parallel to the past Sonic comics.

A loophole induced by an unbelievable amount of incompetence on part of Archie along with SEGA's unwillingness to actually help, mind you. But yes. It's unbelievably frustrating that he hems and haws about creators rights and goes so far as to imply that his struggle is on par with some of the more high profile cases out there, given the exact nature of his work and his contributions. Particularly in the face of him stealing the name of his damn project from one of his *fans* and then refused to talk to the guy afterwards.

And the reason he doesn't start from scratch? The simple reason is that for all of his bluster and bravado and boasting, Penders knows in his heart of hearts that without that Sonic connection, it's all completely worthless. It's why he has done as little as humanly possible to truly separate this from it's origins as a Sonic comic and continues to try and ride Archie's coattails. You gotta remember, all of his solo efforts have never gone anywhere; Archie is the only place where he had a real career, and his independent projects were all stinkers. He knows he needs that Sonic connection, because without it, he literally has nothing to offer. The only thing he has going for him is that he worked on Sonic for so long and that those characters and concepts used in the Lara-Su chronicles were once a part of Sonic, hence him billing it as a 'sequel' or whatever. 

 

Edited December 16, 2015 by horridus

[Jason Berry]

Is there anything out there that shows newsstand sales? Because otherwise, he's just pulling stuff out of his ass.

[Tylinos]

I tried looking the other day, but I couldn't find anything.  That said, even if the exact numbers aren't out there, Sonic selling well on newsstands isn't a lie.  It was known a while ago that it did well in newsstand sales back in the day.

Thing is, though, that wasn't even the point.  Ken brought up Diamond sales himself, and now he's gone off on this newsstands tangent which had nothing to do with his original point.  He's fishing for something to be right about by changing the point to something different.  Because yeah, even though newsstand sales really were good for Sonic, but that wasn't even what he was talking about in the first place.  He was talking about Diamond numbers being bad, which they aren't.

[horridus]

I tried looking the other day, but I couldn't find anything.  That said, even if the exact numbers aren't out there, Sonic selling well on newsstands isn't a lie.  It was known a while ago that it did well in newsstand sales back in the day.

Thing is, though, that wasn't even the point.  Ken brought up Diamond sales himself, and now he's gone off on this newsstands tangent which had nothing to do with his original point.  He's fishing for something to be right about by changing the point to something different.  Because yeah, even though newsstand sales really were good for Sonic, but that wasn't even what he was talking about in the first place.  He was talking about Diamond numbers being bad, which they aren't.

Whaddya expect, it's Penders. Penders most consistent trait is that he never has to apply to whatever standard he holds others to or that he himself sets up. Look over every argument and debate he's ever had. Moving the goal posts is his favorite tactic, when he isn't just ignoring people or just flat out dismissing them for not being 'insiders' like him. I probably sound like a broken record by this point, but at the end of the day this guy is not interested in being engaged or debated, not when it means having to challenge the narrative he's constructed for himself when it comes to either his career on the Sonic comics or the lawsuit. Any evidence presented that counters his claims can be brushed aside with any excuse, any at all. 

Frankly, Penders can claim whatever he likes and do his damndest to act as if he and he alone was responsible for the successes of the comic and imply all he likes that somehow, things are inferior now because he left and not because neither Sonic OR Comics are as popular as they once were. That doesn't change the fact that inspite of all that, Flynn has managed to keep the comic going and even oversee it branching out, and Sonic Universe has gone on much longer than Knuckles ever did. Penders is free to wallow in his delusion. Anybody with sense is going to know the truth.

[Idon'tcare]

So.. are there any news on the actual comic project he's working on or is it just business as usual for him?

[Salamander]

Ken is secretly the canniest PR man alive.  News on his actual creative and commercial work?  You jest.  It is all business as usual, which is no business, just Twitter sniping.

[horridus]

The most news there's been about it as of late is that there is no definitive release date due to him working on the App and health issues with his other family members. Frankly it's a smart move given that the last few times he promised a release, he failed to deliver. 

[Idon'tcare]

Ah okay...

[Tenko]

Hmm..so apparently Shade, Scourge and Shard wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for "his" creations. Scourge I'm willing to give him, but a Metal Sonic turning good, I could see that happening without the need "his" Metal Sonic with its Power Gem/Core thingee. As for Shade, that all depends on how much truth there is in the developers using the Archie comics as their inspiration.

It's his response to the fair point that "his" characters wouldn't exist as they are today without being hired by Archie and working on the Sonic comic. He leaps right to the defensive  in reply and says he has characters in mind for all situations and them being Echidnas is purely a cosmetic choice. So no, his character's would still exist as they are today without Sonic or its influence when he worked on the comics.

Apparently you can have your cake and eat it too >.<;

[SenEDDtor Missile]

It's his response to the fair point that "his" characters wouldn't exist as they are today without being hired by Archie and working on the Sonic comic. He leaps right to the defensive  in reply and says he has characters in mind for all situations and them being Echidnas is purely a cosmetic choice. So no, his character's would still exist as they are today without Sonic or its influence when he worked on the comics.

Apparently you can have your cake and eat it too >.<;

So he's saying that his characters would still be bland and wooden regardless of Archie or SEGA? Good to know. /joke.

Edited December 20, 2015 by SenEDtor Missile

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

His characters are his babies then.  Cool to know.

[horridus]

Babies nothing, they're placeholders. And frankly, if that's the case, why is he so eager to do as little as possible when it comes to separating the damn characters from their source material? Well, beyond the fact that them debuting as Sonic characters kinda sorta makes them Sonic characters and no matter what he claims, that's the only meaningful context in which they exist and in which they are known and thus the only way they have any actual worth. Guy's not just trying to have his cake and eat it, he's trying to stuff the whole damn bakery down his gullet. 

Edited December 21, 2015 by horridus

[Agie]

I'd say he'd even puke out the bakery from eating too much...but I get this gut feeling that saying that would still give him too much credit.

[Idon'tcare]

So going by Pender's words there was always going to be a Dark Legion, a Julie'su and Lara'su. But rather  than using them in a stand alone comic project like the Lost Ones he just added them into a licensed comic... Geez

It's his response to the fair point that "his" characters wouldn't exist as they are today without being hired by Archie and working on the Sonic comic. He leaps right to the defensive  in reply and says he has characters in mind for all situations and them being Echidnas is purely a cosmetic choice. So no, his character's would still exist as they are today without Sonic or its influence when he worked on the comics.

 That makes me wonder a lot at how the characters would have turned out if he had used them in his Star Trek comics instead of the Knuckles comic. Heck, one can only wonder how fast it would have crashed and burned from fan reactions or SEGA blowback if he'd had introduced the Dark legion, the crazed family background and cybernetic soul mate plus future Mary Su type daughter in the Sonic comic.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Penders is full of it, and he knows it. He claims that The Lost Ones, and his characters were all unrelated to Sonic, and didn't need him or the comic, and in general, it was Penders that was important. Despite that claim, he attempted to use Archie Sonic to launch off The Lost Ones by making Dr. Droid the main villain of the comic, the Image crossover, and more. He's full of shit. Period.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Ugh. The problem is he's still either fully convinced or pretending to be fully convinced that people bought the Sonic comics, or indeed still do buy the Sonic comics for any reason other than "because it's Sonic". That's half the reason the games still sell at this point, too.

[Tenko]

I'm still of the mindset that Penders original plan failed.

He brings up the whole "Archie could always continue to use my characters" deal a lot, used to tag Archie in the posts too. Constantly trying to push this idea that he has no clue why they didn't/don't choose to keep them in play. Even after his odd rules for said characters and required payment for their use came to light.

I've always believed that his intention in using the loophole in his contract, or loss of one, to claim "his" characters, was so that he could have a steady income from Archie without even having to work for it.

This plan however crumbled around him when Archie axed all his character's, one can only assume in response to hearing his demands. His planned free annual income then fell to the slim margins made via reprint collections that used his work, which have now also come to a halt for the time being.

Basically I don't think his original idea when he started laying down copyrights and registering his characters right out from under Archie quite went as swimmingly as he would have people believe. 

[horridus]

Steady income, AND to basically try and permanently shoehorn 'his' vision for the comic forever and ever. Even if SEGA's contract with Archie didn't make his demands for ownership utterly impossible, those 'guidelines' and having to pass crap past him would have sunk the deal anyway. I really, really cannot begin to comprehend how he thought there was any other way for this to end, that Archie would just bend over backwards to accomodate him.

Similarly, I can't comprehend how he thought releasing this particular tidbit regarding his characters would somehow strengthen his argument. It literally amounts to him basically saying that they have so few defining traits that ultimately it doesn't matter what setting they are written for. If your character can be 'everything', then how can they be *anything*? All it does is just reinforce the notion that his only real strategy in life was to ride the coattails of something better known. It's the cynical mindset of the person who wants to invent the next Pet Rock or Chia Pet.