Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Tenko]

Even if you count Sonic #33 as the first appearance of Locke, the first other echidna to show up in the old Archie Universe, and that's being kind since he's only shown as a shadow figure in that issue, but the idea was obviously there, that puts Penders date of publication of these ideas at Feb 1996.

Dr Zachary's first appearance was in #65 of the Fleetway comics which was published and on shelves in Nov 1995, a good three months before Penders publication.

If you take it that step further, the first part of the two part French comic, Sonic Adventures: Dans Les Griffes De Robotnik had not only another echidna in Princess Alucion (a strong willed female echidna, predating Julie-Su) but an entire civilisation shown on its pages and that was in 1994, two years before Penders ideas were published, regardless of if he had heard of it or not, it existed.- 

If you go by copy right/trade mark date for these issues, or even plain old market release, Penders looses each and every time. The only way he could try and claim legal firstzies would be to show some form of dated scripts or drawings from before the dates the others were published. Even then he would have to take into account that for them to have been put to market first it's highly likely that the writers of the other comics would have also had those ideas drumming around long before their comics went to print too. Meaning it's good odds Penders would loose out on that front too.

Basically any way you spin it, he wasn't the first.

[Adamis]

According to some e-mails I had with Ken, he was approached by Bioware during the development of Chronicles, in 2006 in fact. They wanted him to be a consult or something, it didn't happen and he lost track of that.

I won't quote the whole explanation for obvious reasons, but there might be some truth in what he says... or not.

[horridus]

If that's the case, why the heck would he be 'startled' then that a company that initially approached him for consultation would wind up using ideas similar to his, even if him providing input never went anywhere? Nor does it justify him treating the entire thing as an act of malicious theft when as far as anyone was concerned, everything he made was property of SEGA to begin with. 

[Idon'tcare]

1 hour ago, Adamis said:

According to some e-mails I had with Ken, he was approached by Bioware during the development of Chronicles, in 2006 in fact. They wanted him to be a consult or something, it didn't happen and he lost track of that.

I won't quote the whole explanation for obvious reasons, but there might be some truth in what he says... or not.

That actually sounds reasonable, it does make sense that they would approach someone who has worked with Sonic material for a long time and who isn't tied up with any other Sonic projects. It makes even more sense when one considered SEGA/Sonicteams legendary attitude towards sharing information with outsiders that Bioware would look towards someone who at the time had a positive reputation in the Sonic community for information.

1 hour ago, horridus said:

If that's the case, why the heck would he be 'startled' then that a company that initially approached him for consultation would wind up using ideas similar to his, even if him providing input never went anywhere? Nor does it justify him treating the entire thing as an act of malicious theft when as far as anyone was concerned, everything he made was property of SEGA to begin with. 

It depends on how far he got with the project, if the entire thing never got beyond the talk about him acting as a consulter for the production then I can actually see how he would be startled by the content of the game. It is likely that Bioware just said that they were making a Sonic game and would like to have his input on it, I'm guessing here but Bioware may have been wanting to use the characters and content from the comic, but for various reasons *Cough*SEGA*Cough* the idea was scrapped and instead we got Shade and the Noctornus clan as Bioware just took the general idea of the Dark Legion and applied it to the their band of Echidna's. Namely a group of Hi tech echidnas banished to a pocket dimension who returns to take over the world when a female character from the clan turns good and sides with Knuckles against her own tribe. 

One can't deny that there are similarities between the game and Pender's ideas, but the differences between the two groups of characters far outweigh the similarities and I really get the feeling he's not as mad about the contents of the game but rather that he feels snubbed for it since not only was he not consulted about it but they still went ahead and used his general ideas for it anyway.

But one could if being evil enough also say that the real source of this snafu moment in SEGA history is Archie, they ensured SEGA that they had contracts with heir writers and artist saying that all the copyrights for everything in the comic belonged to SEGA. So SEGA didn't think they'd need Pender's advice or permission for using his ideas in a game. Yet Archie failed to ensure the safety of the documents that made sure SEGA actually had all the rights and by the time they figured it out it was too late to do anything about it since Pender's had claimed copyright on everything he had created for the comic.

 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

But regardless of that the problems we have now still wouldn't have arose had Penders not been a crazy fucker, because even if the documents had remained insecure, can you really see anyone else who worked on the comic going to this extent?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

4 minutes ago, Shaddy Joestar Dreemurr said:

But regardless of that the problems we have now still wouldn't have arose had Penders not been a crazy fucker, because even if the documents had remained insecure, can you really see anyone else who worked on the comic going to this extent?

No because a lot of them moved on, and was humble enough to realize that they were fucking side characters created for the express purpose of being in a Sonic the Hedgehog comic. Bollers literally didn't even give a shit to know anything about what was happening, and pretty much assumed his characters were still being used until someone broke the news about the reboot to him and he confirmed he owned the characters. 

And if you really need an example of how stuck in the past Penders is while the others moved on, Bollers went on to write a successful solo series focusing on the origins of Emma Frost of the X-Men.

[Tenko]

If it was true, and thats a big if since he has been caught fibbing to make himself seem more saintly before. I wouldn't at all be surprised if the story went something like Penders was asked to consult, but he turned it down. Especially with his constant 'insider insight' that games and comics etc are bottom rung and only a medium to make a platform for a movie.

"Consult on a game? Without any control of the story etc? No I think I'll pass. But if you ever need a director/lead writer on a feature film come see me"

[King Scoopa Koopa]

17 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

No because a lot of them moved on, and was humble enough to realize that they were fucking side characters created for the express purpose of being in a Sonic the Hedgehog comic. Bollers literally didn't even give a shit to know anything about what was happening, and pretty much assumed his characters were still being used until someone broke the news about the reboot to him and he confirmed he owned the characters. 

And if you really need an example of how stuck in the past Penders is while the others moved on, Bollers went on to write a successful solo series focusing on the origins of Emma Frost of the X-Men.

Incidentally, I'm still waiting for Dan Slott to have Zonic help Spider-Man and Sonicaman: Chaos Ninja Team fight off Giant Robotno and Ivanna Robotina, since he apparently created those.

Oh wait, yes I can. Which is a good thing, because that's not something you do.

[Shadowlax]

On 1/1/2016 at 1:08 PM, Ryannumber1gamer said:

No because a lot of them moved on, and was humble enough to realize that they were fucking side characters created for the express purpose of being in a Sonic the Hedgehog comic. Bollers literally didn't even give a shit to know anything about what was happening, and pretty much assumed his characters were still being used until someone broke the news about the reboot to him and he confirmed he owned the characters. 

And if you really need an example of how stuck in the past Penders is while the others moved on, Bollers went on to write a successful solo series focusing on the origins of Emma Frost of the X-Men.

I didn't even know about the bollers thing? Did that happen on twitter or something?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

16 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I didn't even know about the bollers thing? Did that happen on twitter or something?

Yes. It happened on Twitter.

[Shadowlax]

21 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Yes. It happened on Twitter.

Could I possibly have a link please?

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Really now I'm just thinking about how and why Bollers even bothered confirming that... if people basically asked him "do you own these things you made" and he replied "what uh yeah sure whatever". Makes me wonder how much it'd actually take to get his stuff back in the comic.

[Tylinos]

A bit late to the party, but... Yeah, Ken's whole comment on what Ian said was just, uh, pretty rude.  Ian was just comparing the two characters.  You can do that with any two characters.  But no, Ken had to take it and force words in Ian's mouth.  Smooth, Ken.

 

So yeah, while I was away, Horridus linked me some of the other stuff Ken's been on about lately.

 

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/681937551679074304

This one's pretty much the usual, where he says Archie can use the characters while conveniently leaving out the part where he's (very rarely) noted that they only can if they pay him.  I'm really not surprised, but hey, I was asked to comment.

 

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/681939853693423621

This, though, is just wow.  "One doesn't advertise one's good deeds just to prove a point."  Is he trying to make a joke, or is there something I'm missing here, or what?  Ken's constantly bragging about great and important his work is, and how he "single-handedly" saved the comic back in the day.

 

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/681960101410816000

This one actually bugs me because it's a two-way street that Ken's put a one-way sign over.  Not all of Ken's characters are well-loved either, regardless of who was writing them.  Characters like Arlo, Sabre, and Jeremiah (to name just a few) never exactly had huge fan-followings.  Some, such as Hunter and Abby, border on being hated by much of the fanbase.  Even Drago, a character who was vital to Endgame, seems to have a total of only one (very vocal) fan in the world.

 

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/681960355715653632

And just to end things off, one last Invisible Majority comment to end off 2015.  It's been a while since Ken's made one of those.  I'd figured he'd actually realized that it was making him sound really silly to say that with no actual evidence, but apparently not.

 

Also, one more thing.  If MetroXLR99 (that guy who was arguing with Ken on Twitter in some of those tweets) is reading this: Dude, cut out the instigating a bit.  Poking the hornet's nest doesn't do anyone any favours.

 

EDIT: Just as I was getting to posting, I saw this new tweet:

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/683471739053977602

After someone mentioned the facts as Ken had previously presented them (that Bioware approached him regarding Chronicles), he corrected them by saying his wife and son were the ones approached while he was busy, and never got back to him about it.  While that's certainly more information (and makes his previous statement about being approached kind of odd and poorly said), it's not exactly a contradiction, so I don't get why he felt the need to try and correct anyone on it.  All it does is make it look like he was leaving out facts before.

[biznizz]

I'm not really buying that "My wife didn't tell me" excuse. Ken's always been chomping at the bit to spread his name around so, even if he doesn't really prioritize video games at all (sticking to TV & film). So you'd think that if a large, well-known video game company asked him to do some consulting work or an upcoming SONIC game, she would tell him.

My guess is that it's a half truth. He probably was busy with something, Bioware left a message with his wife, and then when she told him, Ken decided that it wasn't important enough to actually give a sh*t about.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, Tylinos said:

This one actually bugs me because it's a two-way street that Ken's put a one-way sign over.  Not all of Ken's characters are well-loved either, regardless of who was writing them.  Characters like Arlo, Sabre, and Jeremiah (to name just a few) never exactly had huge fan-followings.

Wait...who? No seriously, who the fuck were those three characters?

[Tylinos]

31 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

Wait...who? No seriously, who the fuck were those three characters?

Exactly.

But really, Arlo was the Armadillo in the Substitute FFs who completely vanished because he was too boring for anyone to care about, Sabre was Locke's father, and Jeremiah was the dog who told the stories of the Great War in the backup stories of the book during the year and a half leading up to Sonic Adventure.  They all made multiple appearances, but no one really cares about them.

[Idon'tcare]

7 minutes ago, Tylinos said:

Exactly.

But really, Arlo was the Armadillo in the Substitute FFs who completely vanished because he was too boring for anyone to care about, Sabre was Locke's father, and Jeremiah was the dog who told the stories of the Great War in the backup stories of the book during the year and a half leading up to Sonic Adventure.  They all made multiple appearances, but no one really cares about them.

Did anyone really give a monkey's ass about any of Pender's characters outside of Julie-Su?

2 hours ago, Tylinos said:

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/683471739053977602

After someone mentioned the facts as Ken had previously presented them (that Bioware approached him regarding Chronicles), he corrected them by saying his wife and son were the ones approached while he was busy, and never got back to him about it.  While that's certainly more information (and makes his previous statement about being approached kind of odd and poorly said), it's not exactly a contradiction, so I don't get why he felt the need to try and correct anyone on it.  All it does is make it look like he was leaving out facts before.

It's called shifting the blame, when caught lying about something a typical approach of someone who thinks highly of themselves will be an attempt to shift the blame from themselves onto someone else in an effort to maintain the level of trust and respect they perceive people to have in them.

2 hours ago, Tylinos said:

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/681939853693423621

This, though, is just wow.  "One doesn't advertise one's good deeds just to prove a point."  Is he trying to make a joke, or is there something I'm missing here, or what?  Ken's constantly bragging about great and important his work is, and how he "single-handedly" saved the comic back in the day.

No, he doesn't claim he singlehandedly saved the comic back in the day, he claims the comic saved the games from tanking back in the day, which in itself is a sign of just how out of touch Pender's was with things back then. And he especially claims Knuckles was only popular thanks to his work with him, which is pretty laughable as most Knuckles face hasn't read it or even knows there was a comic with Knuckles.

3 hours ago, Tylinos said:

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/681960101410816000

This one actually bugs me because it's a two-way street that Ken's put a one-way sign over.  Not all of Ken's characters are well-loved either, regardless of who was writing them. 

Well, one has to admit that he's right about the game characters not all being well loved. Stares at Silver, Big, Marine, Shadow and even Sonic and that's just the surface. But I find it funny that its written as if he was defending himself from a complainer or accusation about his characters being unwanted by shifting the topic onto one he himself doesn't like one bit.

[horridus]

43 minutes ago, Idon'tcare said:

Did anyone really give a monkey's ass about any of Pender's characters outside of Julie-Su?

The Dark Legion in general was decently popular as villains go. In general though, I think part of the appeal of his characters was more to do with what fans could interpret than anything to do with solid writing or character development on Penders part. I used to think there was actually something deep going with the Brotherhodo and Legion feud, only to discover years later that no, there really wasn't much there and any perception I had of such was just something I had made up in my head. Similarly, other characters got more popular when handled by other writers, even before Flynn came on board... St. John got some character development under Bollers, as did Elias. The rest though? Hard to say how much of it was genuine love and how much of it was due to Penders shoving stuff down the readers' throats.  

Quote

 

No, he doesn't claim he singlehandedly saved the comic back in the day, he claims the comic saved the games from tanking back in the day, which in itself is a sign of just how out of touch Pender's was with things back then. And he especially claims Knuckles was only popular thanks to his work with him, which is pretty laughable as most Knuckles face hasn't read it or even knows there was a comic with Knuckles.

 

Honestly, the only time he flat out said that he later retracted as a joke, but going over some of his statements it's easy to see how that perception of him can grow; he heavily, heavily emphasizes his contributions to the book over the others who wrote for it and has claimed that both his efforts and his name were more responsible for the successes of the book than any of the others, and has made it clear that he barely, if ever, read any of his co-workers stories. He even went so far as to dismiss Angel DeCesare as 'writing Furry ARchie' (a rich statement coming from a guy who wrote a large portion of the stuff that led to the 'furry drama' perception the book had for a while). With all that in mind, he does very little to dissuade the idea that he genuinely does think of himself as being the 'savior' of the comic. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Idon'tcare said:

Did anyone really give a monkey's ass about any of Pender's characters outside of Julie-Su?

When Ian Flynn wrote them, yes. Matter of fact, I actually liked Lien-Da much better than Julie-Su. And Enerjak was awesome, especially when Knuckles became him.

[Idon'tcare]

1 hour ago, horridus said:

Honestly, the only time he flat out said that he later retracted as a joke, but going over some of his statements it's easy to see how that perception of him can grow; he heavily, heavily emphasizes his contributions to the book over the others who wrote for it and has claimed that both his efforts and his name were more responsible for the successes of the book than any of the others, and has made it clear that he barely, if ever, read any of his co-workers stories. He even went so far as to dismiss Angel DeCesare as 'writing Furry ARchie' (a rich statement coming from a guy who wrote a large portion of the stuff that led to the 'furry drama' perception the book had for a while). With all that in mind, he does very little to dissuade the idea that he genuinely does think of himself as being the 'savior' of the comic. 

Hmm, I must admit I never head much about that statement beyond the "Pender's said he saved Sonic" argument online, but I agree with you that his attitude and behavior is a major factor in how people view him more as a spoiled child rather than an artist trying to defend his work from exploitation. Half od the entire drama around him could be solved if he just took a few hours to sit down and explain it to people in a rational way instead of just throwing out twitter statements and cryptic comments every second day.

 

42 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

When Ian Flynn wrote them, yes. Matter of fact, I actually liked Lien-Da much better than Julie-Su. And Enerjak was awesome, especially when Knuckles became him.

I stand corrected then. I did like Flynn's first take on Knuckles as Enerjak, but the second one from the Dark World in Silver's arc was a complete embarrassment in my humble opinion. 

Perhaps a better question would have been. Did anyone really give a monkey's ass about any of Pender's characters when he wrote about them?

[Tylinos]

3 hours ago, Idon'tcare said:

Did anyone really give a monkey's ass about any of Pender's characters when he wrote about them?

I liked how he portrayed Harry, the Dingo cab driver.  It wasn't because he was anything special or something, but because he just felt like a chill guy trying to get by while all this weird stuff was going on around him with Knuckles and co.

[Tenko]

So Penders has said he would "technically have no problem using this character" when asked if he could use/or had considered using the character Scourge over the 'original' (boy do I use that term in the most loosest of ways) Evil Sonic design.

Regardless of if he acquired the rights to Evil Sonic via his crazy courtroom loopholes, wouldn't he, especially under his own creator rights umbrella he is constantly waving about, have to ask permission from Spaz to use the basic design? He didn't come up with Scourges look, he also didn't come up with his refined personality either, that writing etc belongs to Ian and Tracy.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

5 hours ago, Tenko said:

So Penders has said he would "technically have no problem using this character" when asked if he could use/or had considered using the character Scourge over the 'original' (boy do I use that term in the most loosest of ways) Evil Sonic design.

Regardless of if he acquired the rights to Evil Sonic via his crazy courtroom loopholes, wouldn't he, especially under his own creator rights umbrella he is constantly waving about, have to ask permission from Spaz to use the basic design? He didn't come up with Scourges look, he also didn't come up with his refined personality either, that writing etc belongs to Ian and Tracy.

Nah, don't be silly. See, if it weren't for Evil Sonic, there would be no Scourge, so he owns everything to do with him(save maybe the stories) lock, stock, and barrel.

Just don't bring up that without Sonic, there would be no Evil Sonic. Completely different thing.

[Idon'tcare]

7 hours ago, Tenko said:

So Penders has said he would "technically have no problem using this character" when asked if he could use/or had considered using the character Scourge over the 'original' (boy do I use that term in the most loosest of ways) Evil Sonic design.

Given how Pender's has changed all the other characters into their new and "improved" versions I don't think asking anyone for design permissions will be an issue here... In fact I want to see this abomination right now, I could use a laugh.

[antyep]

For all I'm convinced, the whole LSC might not be real (kinda), since it's been more than six years. It's probably just something he's trying to rub on Archie's face, since he has been trying to convince them to use his characters (under his mandates, of course), so maybe THEY can make LSC for him.