Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[KoDaiko]

I never went to a event before, are you allowed to bring stuff not Sonic-related? I know LSC is based off the characters from Archie Sonic, but it's pretty much something original at this point...r-right..?? 

I tried to watch the live stream, but the moment his face appeared on screen my finger slammed the mute button and my eyes turned to the comment section before I can think. I...still don't know what happened to be honest.....I ended up reading summaries and comments instead. Was he really criticizing Sonic at a Sonic event? If it's true, what a way to gain support from Sonic fans, Penders.

[Your Vest Friend]

Just to note, I'm seeing people pan Penders for saying that fan art and fan merchandise is illegal. Unfortunately for them, he's right on this one. 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

3 minutes ago, Detective Reptiles said:

Just to note, I'm seeing people pan Penders for saying that fan art and fan merchandise is illegal. Unfortunately for them, he's right on this one. 

How is fanart illegal? Everyone does it. Unless you mean selling it or something?

[Your Vest Friend]

2 minutes ago, SenEDtor Missile said:

How is fanart illegal? Everyone does it. Unless you mean selling it or something?

It's a weird situation where companies are tolerant of it because it's both not harming them for the most part and it'd be bad PR to try and get legal action on it. Even not for profit distribution of it is illegal by law, technically. 

[Sparky]

6 minutes ago, Detective Reptiles said:

It's a weird situation where companies are tolerant of it because it's both not harming them for the most part and it'd be bad PR to try and get legal action on it. Even not for profit distribution of it is illegal by law, technically. 

I don't care what the law says, I will draw whatever I want and distribute it however I please.

[Zaysho]

I decided I'd try summarizing the panel for anyone who wants to know the basics of what Pen said. Spoiler tags because it gets long.
 

Spoiler

 

- A driving force in Archie getting the license at all was David Silberkleit and he worked with the licensing department at SEGA. Apparently nobody knew how to approach the book, and Archie had taken several proposals. Editor Daryl Edelman was the one who set the direction and hired Gallagher and Scott Shaw for the original mini-series. Apparently the direction might have been different since Penders mentioned Daryl scrapped the first issue and the mini-series was developed from there. I'm a little unclear on this, though.

- Mentions his experience with Valiant's Legend of Zelda and how licensed comics typically don't have that long of a lifespan, which isn't totally untrue. Sonic is indeed an exception to the rule. It should be noted Nintendo didn't promote Valiant's books like they said they would, though. Other sources say that the intended audience either didn't read comics or otherwise didn't like the books anyway (which, to me, suggests the books were just bad/unappealing to fans/gamers, but whatever).

- Editor Paul Castiglia approached Mike Kanterovich to write for Sonic, and Penders collaborated with Kanterovich due to his own familiarity. The did a few submissions, two of which were accepted and published (Sonic #11). The third story featured a parody of the Mario Bros. which was flat out rejected. Other than that, SEGA gave very little input on what they submitted and otherwise didn't give them much to work with.

- Pen and Kanterovich eventually start submitting stories along the lines of the SatAM cartoon, which then editor Scott Fulop liked. Apparently the licensing director at SEGA who reviewed the scripts usually asked for MORE jokes and puns, which Kanterovich didn't like (according to Pen, Kanterovich got the impression the licensing director didn't understand his humor). Kanterovich quit around #36, shortly after finishing the Knuckles mini-series.

- Cartoons are cancelled, Fulop tells Penders the book may not last much longer. From there, Penders pitched "End Game" which was intended as a finale/conclusion, but then sales picked up and the story had to be revised. Initially Sally was to be killed off permanently, but editor Gabrie said no to this (and some other, questionable things I'm sure). #50 was intended to be a double-sized issue, but it was cut back because of subscription concerns (of course, we eventually got the "Director's Cut" edition of it as Sonic Super Special #6).

- Notes the difference between Direct Market and Newsstand sales. While direct market was circulating somewhere around 6-7,000 copies, apparently newsstands, around 1995-98, were circulating ten times that. I imagine that still isn't much in comparison to Big Two books judging by how he talked about it.

- Following "End Game" Pen gets the opportunity to do a Knuckles series. He chose to write for Knuckles because, in his words, Knuckles was "a blank slate" and "had nothing". We know what this led to. And, once again, apparently comic shops were ordering fewer issues of Sonic because Penders wasn't the main writer, which led to a series of back-ups he'd do in the main book so Archie can put his name on the solicitations. I've already said I have some doubts about this, though, because Knuckles always underperformed in the direct market compared to Sonic. From here he kinda trails off and leaves things at this before heading into the Q&A portion.

- Q & A time: First question is about the Sonic Adventure arc. SEGA told Archie to adapt the game, but didn't provide any materials. Spaz had to get a Japanese copy and took notes, which formed the basis of the arc (corroborated by Gabrie's editor's note in one of those issues). The Knuckles series was meant to include some of that storyline, but was cancelled just before, forcing the team to rework the stories into the main book (side note, Knuckles #33's intended cover was recycled for Sonic #80). He then goes on about how SA2 was a similar situation. In general, SEGA didn't provide Archie with anything.

- The licensing director at SEGA wanted Underground elements worked into the comic, but it clashed with continuity too much, so Archie chose not to do it. They compromised with a one-shot story in Sonic Super Special #10.

- Notes that it was thanks to Gabrie that Archie got away with much of what they did. Penders then says that he feels it'd be to the benefit of SEGA to allow the comic creators to do their own thing more because of the difference in how comics are released versus game schedules. Says that comics are a driving force in film and TV, and bemoans that SEGA is ignoring the comic. His initial film pitch was going to be based on the comics and he said it'd give Sonic the continuity needed on a global basis. Mentions the recognizability of Spider-Man or other superheroes, but Sonic doesn't have that to latch onto apparently (I disagree on this point, but whatever).

- The licensing director who was Pen's champion on the movie's development, Bob Luffler (might have misheard his name, so I apologize), passed away in 2007, and this affected their chances of getting it made. Prior to this, SEGA was receptive to the idea, especially since one of Pen's partners was the showrunner for the X-Men cartoon (which, based on previous things he's said, I believe is Larry Houston).

- He believes the movie is a viable project, just not the way Sony is doing it. He believes Sony is not serious about the movie, and may have bought the rights to bury it so it wouldn't compete with their properties which apparently other companies did in the past. He brings up Ratchet and Clank, and notes its lack of success, and that Sonic may not get off the ground because of that. He'd like to be proven wrong (time will tell). He says Sonic has to be more than the games, and believes the comics (read: his comics) should be the basis.

- Notes how hard it is to break into comics these days. And, this part is pretty true, like it or not.

- Talks about fan comics. References this Bleeding Cool article. Notes the ugly truth that copyright holders could always go after fan artists just due to the technicality of the law, even if most companies likely wouldn't (he sounds pretty pessimistic about this, however, so who knows if things could change--I sure hope they don't!). Does mention he's fine with people using his characters in fan comics, but would appreciate people crediting him. People are better off making their own stuff, and even notes TMNT's success (he got some things slightly wrong about this--he said the initial print run was around 6000 copies and had a black and white cover, but the print run for the first issue was 3000 copies and the cover was a two-color cover, but I'm being really nitpicky--but his point is otherwise valid).

- He proposed his film in 2003. Talks about how he would define Sonic's origins in his film, such as his what his shoes are like--protective gear because Sonic's fast, or the source of his speed? The first film would be establishing the origins of Sonic and the Freedom Fighters.

 

 

That's about it. Nothing especially new, but there is a little more elaboration, I think, on "End Game". Basically the story was pitched when they did think the book was ending, but things changed in development when the sales picked up. Though I have to wonder why they didn't just scrap "End Game" in light of this but I have a feeling the logistics/scheduling didn't allow for it. It sounds like they had a decent amount of lead time when it was pitched, however. If I was there, I'd ask a bit more about the difference between direct market and newsstand sales, because that's interesting to me and I'm curious what defines a success in one market versus the other, especially since he seemed to act like neither's figures were great (though I feel this explains what he's said about Wal-Mart dropping comics in the past).

The stream (its whole eight hour run) is on Sonic Revolution's YouTube if you want to watch any of it (Pen's run starts around 5:29:00 mark). Of course, there's some Sonic Boom cast interviews and other good stuff in there too, so, you know, you don't have to watch for Pen xP

Edited June 13, 2016 by Zaysho
added a source about Valiant/Nintendo. Thanks KingScoopaKoopa!

[QuantumEdge]

Nice to see Ken's not too egocentric with his work...  Really, I don't know where to start.  The guy does state a couple facts, sure, but nearly every answer of his boomerangs back to him spouting on about his influence on the franchise, which we've heard tens of times on Twitter.  As much as I'm impressed that he had the guts to say all that under the same roof as people like Iizuka, he hardly did anything to change fans tunes about him.  He continued to big up his importance, claim he was the one to bring all the substance to Knuckles and tries to downplay the reasons why the Knuckles book went belly up.  I feel like we're just listening to a broken record at this point.

[Zaysho]

I'll say this, Pen seems pretty personable and friendly. I think I'd enjoy talking to him even if I couldn't, in good conscience, actually agree with a single thing he says.

I found it funny he kept going on about how it's been 23 years, referencing the comic's age, and ignoring he's at an event celebrating the 25th anniversary of the franchise. I mean, I'm not surprised, he made a point to tell people throughout the panel that SEGA is ignoring a very important asset by not utilizing the comics' continuity in another media (and though he doesn't explicitly say it, I can tell he's referring to his run because of things I've read in the past), despite the fact that anyone outside of SoA and Archie doesn't care about the comic. Never mind if SEGA did decide to use the comics as a basis for a movie/TV series at this point, it'd more than likely be based on the reboot era.

I wasn't all that happy with his thoughts on Knuckles, either. There's enough implied backstory in the games to make some interesting stories, and it's something I'd definitely make a counterpoint on if I ever spoke to him. It just reinforces the feeling that Pen really didn't care or believe Sonic was viable on its own merits, which I find pretty disheartening as a fan. I have to wonder if he'd have cared more if SEGA was more forthcoming with giving materials to Archie to help them develop their stories, even if I admittedly liked what was done for the most part.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

2 hours ago, Zaysho said:

- Mentions his experience with Valiant's Legend of Zelda and how licensed comics typically don't have that long of a lifespan, which isn't totally untrue. Sonic is indeed an exception to the rule. My understanding is that Nintendo didn't promote Valiant's books (though I can't seem to find the source for that anymore--help?), though most other sources I found noted that, well, the intended fanbase didn't read comics anyway or otherwise didn't like the books (which, to me, suggests the books were bad and unappealing to gamers/fans, but whatever).
 

Here you go:

LCI represented Nintendo and World Wrestling Federation, to name a few. So I guess, Steve had some conversations with him about doing Nintendo comics.

You have to understand, Nintendo was very hot back then. Mario Bros. was doing great. It sounded attractive. I knew you couldn't sell those comics in the existing comics market, but you might be able to sell them in the mass market. Steve was really behind this. He really wanted to do this. This was, of course, before I knew that he was sleeping with the banker. She seemed to be all gung ho about this, too. I was thinking about this, gee, the money people think it's a good idea.

Steve kept telling me things like because of Stan Weston and their relationship with Nintendo we could get the use of Nintendo's mailing list, who -- at that point -- had a 2,000,000 name subscriber database for their magazine. So if we could get an ad in their magazine -- maybe a blow-in card -- to advertise these new comics, that'd be pretty good.

2,000,000 people who are desperately interested in Nintendo, if we put out a good product...

...Maybe this would go. Nintendo was saying that they would help us market it and get on the shelves next to the games. That'd be great. We sign this deal, pay them a phenomenal amount of money, something like $300,000 -- which was a lot of money for a little company like ours -- and of course it never happened.

We never got the subscriber list, we never got help with the marketing and basically left to twist in the wind. Which we did. And we tried different things to make it work. It wasn't happening. I wanted to get out of the Nintendo business and get into the superhero business, but Steve and Melanie had surfaced and Winston had been fired. It was kind of contentious.

[horridus]

12 hours ago, Zaysho said:

I'll say this, Pen seems pretty personable and friendly. I think I'd enjoy talking to him even if I couldn't, in good conscience, actually agree with a single thing he says.

Glad you could, cause I don't really think I could manage. I've seen way too many contradictory, self serving statements from him, instances of him disrespecting his co-workers and successors, trying to take credit while denying any flaws in his own work, justifications for plagiarism and laziness and on and on and on. Whatever pleasant front he puts up in real life, that twitter and that forum of his is littered with examples of the real him, and for that reason alone I don't think I ever want to maintain a discussion with him. 

And on the APP front:

Okay seriously.... anybody who was actually at Sonic Revolt. Did you approach Penders? Did you ask about the App? Did you SEE the App? I am seriously asking anybody who was there if they saw anything, anything at all that could hint that there is in fact an App? I know Penders ain't going to provide anything to prove that it exists.

[Zaysho]

3 minutes ago, horridus said:

Glad you could, cause I don't really think I could manage. I've seen way too many contradictory, self serving statements from him, instances of him disrespecting his co-workers and successors, trying to take credit while denying any flaws in his own work, justifications for plagiarism and laziness and on and on and on. Whatever pleasant front he puts up in real life, that twitter and that forum of his is littered with examples of the real him, and for that reason alone I don't think I ever want to maintain a discussion with him. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this erases the shitty things he's said and done (my stance on those things hasn't changed), I just mean he comes across as nearly tolerable in real life, I'd be willing to speak to him given the chance, even if everything he says is disagreeable or just completely wrong.

And about the app... this is exactly what he said last year at SDCC, wasn't it? He STILL hasn't shown it outside of these events?

[horridus]

3 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

And about the app... this is exactly what he said last year at SDCC, wasn't it? He STILL hasn't shown it outside of these events?

Why yes, yes it was. He refused to provide photographs of any kind or so much as a screen cap to verify any of his claims. I am looking everywhere I can and so far, I have got a big ol pile of nothing when it comes to that App. Hence my practically begging anyone who actually attended the con who might have actually seen it to come forth and verify that it does, in fact, exist. 

Though at this point I'm pretty convinced that it doesn't, in any form. 

[Jason Berry]

8 hours ago, horridus said:

 

Okay seriously.... anybody who was actually at Sonic Revolt. Did you approach Penders? Did you ask about the App? Did you SEE the App? I am seriously asking anybody who was there if they saw anything, anything at all that could hint that there is in fact an App? I know Penders ain't going to provide anything to prove that it exists.

I saw it. He showed me how it works. The pages have the art first and word balloons coming in second to give a bit of an animated feel. There's also voice acting involved as well (English and French). I could barely hear the audio, but the voices sounded real stiff. I think he's using a computer program temporarily rather than voice actors. He showed me an options screen where you can turn off the animation, choose a different language and turn off/on sound along with other things. I got to see a finished page he hasn't shown yet too.

It's nice. Really. But I feel it's making what would otherwise be a normal comic a way, WAY too big of a hassle to tackle and feels really unnecessary. Why go through all this when you can..y'know? Just put out a comic?

That said, he was real nice and polite and a total class act the entire time he was there. Never pushy with anyone and kept to his booth for the most part. The ridiculous amount of outrage about him being at the show was absolutely pathetic.

[therealfalconpawnch77]

3 minutes ago, Jason the Jackass said:

I saw it. He showed me how it works. The pages have the art first and word balloons coming in second to give a bit of an animated feel. There's also voice acting involved as well (English and French). I could barely hear the audio, but the voices sounded real stiff. I think he's using a computer program temporarily rather than voice actors. He showed me an options screen where you can turn off the animation, choose a different language and turn off/on sound along with other things. I got to see a finished page he hasn't shown yet too.

It's nice. Really. But I feel it's making what would otherwise be a normal comic a way, WAY too big of a hassle to tackle and feels really unnecessary. Why go through all this when you can..y'know? Just put out a comic?

That said, he was real nice and polite and a total class act the entire time he was there. Never pushy with anyone and kept to his booth for the most part. The ridiculous amount of outrage about him being at the show was absolutely pathetic.

Wait... so the revolutionary Comic app... is just a motion comic? Well, I probably should've seen that coming.

[Agie]

How revolutionary, a motion comic. Not like I can find those on DVDs and YouTube, or maybe even apps that may contain them, nope, totally unique Penders creation.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

1 hour ago, SurrealBrain said:

How revolutionary, a motion comic. Not like I can find those on DVDs and YouTube, or maybe even apps that may contain them, nope, totally unique Penders creation.

He didn't know about those, so they don't count.

[horridus]

13 hours ago, Jason the Jackass said:

I saw it. He showed me how it works. The pages have the art first and word balloons coming in second to give a bit of an animated feel. There's also voice acting involved as well (English and French). I could barely hear the audio, but the voices sounded real stiff. I think he's using a computer program temporarily rather than voice actors. He showed me an options screen where you can turn off the animation, choose a different language and turn off/on sound along with other things. I got to see a finished page he hasn't shown yet too.

Well Glory Hallelujah, we have actual confirmation that the thing exists!

And from the sounds of it, it sounds... needlessly complicated given that there isn't even a proper book out, and, expectedly, nowhere near as impressive as he hyped this thing. But hey, that's progress at least, given the various other times he's said he'd deliver on something and then either done so months later or simply reneged entirely, so good for him. Maybe by years end he might even have a whole chapter available for his App. 

[Adamis]

The Storm will be 11 pages long. I've recieved the last three for translation

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Reminder it's taken about a year for this "short story" to actually finish.

But he was obviously too busy with his motion comic that isn't a motion comic (for the record, there's actual animation in motion comics, just not on the scale of a series, so simply having the images appear before the actual word balloons don't really count as animation imo).

[therealfalconpawnch77]

 New art of our main character... she still looks really old and her clothes blend in too well with her regular colors.

[Zaysho]

Oh thank goodness, he's actually using a fucking outline.

And... admittedly, the art looks better with the lining. The design's still unappealing and a shameless knock-off of Sonic, but this feels like a step up from most everything else we've seen. I'm not sure why he's insistent on coloring her clothing the same color as her fur/skin, though. There's not enough contrast and it blurs everything together. I'd go with a blue or even a deep red, personally.

Still waiting to see a screenshot of this app, but based on what I heard about his appearance at Sonic Revolution, I'm not expecting much.

[Dr. Detective]

It looks like the Echydnyas are invading through the black empty voids of our coffee mugs. We must all prepare.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Chaotix said:

It looks like the Echydnyas are invading through the black empty voids of our coffee mugs. We must all prepare.

Lucky for me my mug is white, so no black voids for them to show up in :D!

[Osmium]

27 minutes ago, therealfalconpawnch77 said:

 New art of our main character... she still looks really old and her clothes blend in too well with her regular colors.

I haven't been in here for a while, but I just have to comment on how unpleasant this design is. She looks really bony and frail and... I guess just old like you said is the best descriptor actually. She looks like an old librarian or something. No offense to old librarians of course XP 

I don't like how monochromatic she seems to be too, except for her hair which really doesn't mesh in with it that well. If you're trying to go for all pale magenta or whatever, at least put in hair that compliments or adds to it please. 

[Tylinos]

Personally, I think this drawing of Lara-Su is actually somewhat decent, at least compared to what he showed us before, and despite her cheeks looking oddly swollen.  He's learning.