Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Agie]

Guy's got a very twisted definition of the word "popular" if those issues fit it. As you pointed out, they don't even have Endgame's initial praise saving them; they were hated from the start, and with Pneders' actions, they're even more hated now, meaning they don't even have the nostalgia filter on their side.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

The Mighty/Ray story... that's the one that actually referenced SegaSonic Arcade, isn't it?

Still trying to figure out how that happened.

[RobotnikHolmes]

18 hours ago, Tylinos said:

Sorry, maybe I just read in the wrong circles, but isn't the lead story of Knuckles 26 to 28 usually considered some of the absolute worst of that era of the comic?  If there are people who like it, or Ken himself personally finds it a crowning achievement, then more power to them, but I don't generally see it being touted as "one of the series' most popular stories."

Yeah, those issues weren't that good at all. I reviewed it on my blog. Honestly the only good thing about it was the more focus on Julie-Su. Even if it was centered around her sudden love/hate relationship with Knuckles, with art done by a guy who'd formerly workedon TMNT comics, at the very least it was a nice short break from the large clusterfuck that was the Brotherhood of Guardian and the "Knuckles is Jesus" plots. XP

EDIT: Sorry for all the typos

[Tenko]

Yup, it's the old newstand excuse again. That and blaming Star Wars for bumping Knuckles and the Super Specials off the shelves. Apparently sales had nothing at all to do with it tho. Which I have contested as I too remember those posts he made requesting people buy up more issues of Knuckles to help boost sales and thus the popularity of the series, probably to maintain said newsstand space.

So for him to say sales didn't factor in at all is a blatant lie regardless of what else was happening at the time.

Now where was that comic sales figures post lost in here, or maybe the last server crash. Pretty sure the Knuckles comics were on that list.

Edit : So he doesn't deny he asked for help with sales, but is saying that wasn't the problem, he only thought it was at the time. That the real reason was other properties bumping the Knuckles comics out of market and he only found it out since. I'm still inclined to not be satisfied with that reasoning. Now I really want some time to wade through the pages of this board and find the sales figures.

[Tylinos]

Suddenly all his "Archie Sonic won't last much longer" talk makes total sense; For over a decade, not just the mid-90s, he worked under the mindset that the book would soon be cancelled.  It's not just that he simply thinks that it stands no chance without him. (Though he's made that belief clear too.) It's that he's long since indoctrinated himself into believing the book is fated to soon die, no matter the circumstances.  Even after ten years off the book, that hasn't changed.

[Nestor]

1 hour ago, Tenko said:

Yup, it's the old newstand excuse again. That and blaming Star Wars for bumping Knuckles and the Super Specials off the shelves. Apparently sales had nothing at all to do with it tho. Which I have contested as I too remember those posts he made requesting people buy up more issues of Knuckles to help boost sales and thus the popularity of the series, probably to maintain said newsstand space.

So for him to say sales didn't factor in at all is a blatant lie regardless of what else was happening at the time.

Now where was that comic sales figures post lost in here, or maybe the last server crash. Pretty sure the Knuckles comics were on that list.

Edit : So he doesn't deny he asked for help with sales, but is saying that wasn't the problem, he only thought it was at the time. That the real reason was other properties bumping the Knuckles comics out of market and he only found it out since. I'm still inclined to not be satisfied with that reasoning. Now I really want some time to wade through the pages of this board and find the sales figures.

You should consider asking him why he never takes into account the effect of other properties on Ian's work...

[horridus]

1 hour ago, Tenko said:

Edit : So he doesn't deny he asked for help with sales, but is saying that wasn't the problem, he only thought it was at the time. That the real reason was other properties bumping the Knuckles comics out of market and he only found it out since. I'm still inclined to not be satisfied with that reasoning. Now I really want some time to wade through the pages of this board and find the sales figures.

That doesn't really make all that much sense- Star Wars books getting more shelf space would indicate that the franchise sold better, and if Knuckles was turning the stores a profit it would have kept going despite the supposedly vast number of Star Wars books. Money talks, after all. And if other works crowding out the books was the cause, then why didn't Sonic Universe get cancelled, especially given the overall decline of the Sonic Franchise's popularity at the time as well as the decline of comic sales overall? 

I know he once said that the company now supports the book more, but he doesn't seem to regard why they'd be willing to do that for Flynn's work but not his own. 

12 minutes ago, Tylinos said:

Suddenly all his "Archie Sonic won't last much longer" talk makes total sense; For over a decade, not just the mid-90s, he worked under the mindset that the book would soon be cancelled.  It's not just that he simply thinks that it stands no chance without him. (Though he's made that belief clear too.) It's that he's long since indoctrinated himself into believing the book is fated to soon die, no matter the present circumstances.

I should note that he hasn't really answered that fellow's question...

And frankly, given how damn drawn out a lot of his plots became over the years and how many things he set up that didn't have a payout until Flynn came on board, I have a hard time accepting that was his mentality at the time. And if so, good grief will *nothing* get him to hustle a bit in his storytelling?? 

[Tylinos]

6 minutes ago, horridus said:

That doesn't really make all that much sense- Star Wars books getting more shelf space would indicate that the franchise sold better, and if Knuckles was turning the stores a profit it would have kept going despite the supposedly vast number of Star Wars books.

It was early 1999.  That's when the Phantom Menace was released.  Star Wars saw a huge surge of attention that year because of it, regardless of how badly the movie was received.

[horridus]

1 minute ago, Tylinos said:

It was early 1999.  That's when the Phantom Menace was released.  Star Wars saw a huge surge of attention that year because of it, regardless of how badly the movie was received.

Good point. I still have a hard time believing that that alone would be enough to cancel a book, if sales weren't the problem as Penders insists. 

[Tenko]

Don't know how reliable Comichron is for numbers, but during the time frame for these issues Penders mentioned its figures indicate Knuckles was always a good 1,000 copies sold below Sonic and the Super Special magazine.

Oddly tho that in itself only places Knuckles a couple slots below Sonic on the overall sales table, and the Super Special's were much closer to Sonic in sales and were still canceled. These numbers alone do make it a bit hard to understand the motive behind the cancelations, falling 1,000 copies short of the main comic could have spelt out Knuckles demise but it doesn't explain why the Super Specials left the stands when it seemed to be consistently pretty close to the main comic in numbers.

[horridus]

8 minutes ago, Tenko said:

Don't know how reliable Comichron is for numbers, but during the time frame for these issues Penders mentioned its figures indicate Knuckles was always a good 1,000 copies sold below Sonic and the Super Special magazine.

Oddly tho that in itself only places Knuckles a couple slots below Sonic on the overall sales table, and the Super Special's were much closer to Sonic in sales and were still canceled. These numbers alone do make it a bit hard to understand the motive behind the cancelations, falling 1,000 copies short of the main comic could have spelt out Knuckles demise but it doesn't explain why the Super Specials left the stands when it seemed to be consistently pretty close to the main comic in numbers.

Comichron doesn't cover ALL aspects of sales, such as subscriptions, it only covers a very narrow range of things- while it's a good indicator of where a book might be in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't tell the whole story. 

[Zaysho]

Yeah, Comichron specifically covers whatever Diamond has shipped, so it doesn't include mail-order subscriptions, newsstand editions (which actually have a different ISBN/UPC to the direct market editions), or digital. I imagine that's what the statements of ownership are for, but I don't think every comic has them published (Archie typically publishes them--I don't remember the last Sonic/Sonic Universe that had them though, but they were early this year).

It can provide a pretty good baseline, but it's probably not completely reliable.

[Big Panda]

So you know how with recent graphic novel releases they've been doing that thing where they put some credits at the bottom of the cover? On the Archie App, they've gone back and done just that to some of the older graphic novels.

Second, you know how, with any graphic novel that contains Kens work, no matter how small, he's always given top billing on the cover, always being listed first ahead of the other writers and artists?

Well among the older books to get the cover credit treatment is the Sonic Comic Encyclopedia. Let's take a look at the cover credits:

...

...

...

*gasps for breath* okay...okay...

Are you...are you kidding me?!

Everything in this book was written by Ian! And a whole multitude of artists works' appear throughout the book. Do you know how many of Ken's claims to fame appear throughout the book?

-Mobius and Angel Island maps

-That infamous copypasta Brotherhood group shot

-That fucking hideous Dulcy drawing

-Two pics of Dimitri

-Two pics from Sally's Source of All skinnydip

-Two pics on the Chaos Syphone article

That's about it. And he still gets top billing. LOLWUT 8D

[Ryannumber1gamer]

It's stuff like that which disgusts me about Archie honestly. I have no issue giving him the top billing on work he's actually did, and did most of it, like Knuckles Archives or whatever. Don't fucking put him as the top billing on everything, especially when he had fuck all to do with it. What's next? Will the Saga Series have him get top billing?

[RetroRy]

6 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

It's stuff like that which disgusts me about Archie honestly. I have no issue giving him the top billing on work he's actually did, and did most of it, like Knuckles Archives or whatever. Don't fucking put him as the top billing on everything, especially when he had fuck all to do with it. What's next? Will the Saga Series have him get top billing?

It seems Archie is more making sure that they appease Ken's ego so they don't have to deal with him again.

I do agree that Ken did absolute shit on the Encyclopedia (except make it completely unnecessary since it came out right before the lawsuit-reboot).  Putting Penders before Flynn makes Ian's hard work of putting it ALL together look insignificant.  They aren't highlighting the man who actually did the work and not really showing that Archie is standing behind him.  I'm sure Ian doesn't mind (or he will say he doesn't since he is a nice guy) but Archie really should of thought that through first.

[Zaysho]

9 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

It's stuff like that which disgusts me about Archie honestly. I have no issue giving him the top billing on work he's actually did, and did most of it, like Knuckles Archives or whatever. Don't fucking put him as the top billing on everything, especially when he had fuck all to do with it. What's next? Will the Saga Series have him get top billing?

Well he did ink and letter one story that appeared in there, without that who knows where this series would be? (Never mind his own dismissive attitude toward ink and letter work xP)

I am a little surprised they went and appended his name to the Encyclopedia of all things. I remember back when the Sonic Archives were still coming out, particularly around the Bollers era, Penders got top billing and not every issue he was involved with was even a lead story. It always rubbed me the wrong way. I know Archie's done dumb things like credit Ian within the Knuckles Archives (both in the list of creators and in the staff--Ian was only a staff writer who wrote some copy for chapter summaries and character profiles), but the reverse isn't any better. I like proper credits.

Makes me wonder how this is going to work out with the Fulop case, assuming existing reprints aren't just pulled altogether.

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

On 8/30/2016 at 6:28 AM, Tylinos said:

Sorry, maybe I just read in the wrong circles, but isn't the lead story of Knuckles 26 to 28 usually considered some of the absolute worst of that era of the comic?  If there are people who like it, or Ken himself personally finds it a crowning achievement, then more power to them, but I don't generally see it being touted as "one of the series' most popular stories."

For those who don't remember, this was the three-parter about Knuckles' love life, where Knuckles talked to his father about sex, and then attacked Vector because Vector said he was shit at dating.  The art was also pretty...unique, but that wasn't Ken's doing.  (Honestly, aside from the substantially better SegaSonic Arcade backup story, it was really just three issues of filler.)

Late to the party, but yeah it's actually the opposite of popular.

The art doesn't look pretty, proportions and spacing are off, and some characters were out of character! Vector trying to find a girl, being a jerk to Knuckles, It... feels off to talk about sex in a Sonic comic (well in this case a Knuckles comic) I mean it's supposed to be a children's comic right? And the stupidity that is the soultouch, used to explain why Knuckles and Julie-Su are together... Penders that's not how relationships work!

A story is supposed to keep you interested, to see what happens next, there should be some character development and interaction, and some good art to go with it.

Then it becomes good and talked about in a better light I guess...

(Now I'm starting to wonder if this post is a bit of topic...)

 

[Big Panda]

The prologue for the original M25YL story appears in this one in case you're unaware. As a bonus story. At the back. After the main arc.

EDIT: oh and this

Poor Michael Gallagher, it seems taking legal action is the only real way to get any recognision anymore.

[Agie]

Beautiful. Just beautiful. Looks like they're giving him top billing on everything that had even the romotest sign of his work.

Now isn't that just great?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I can't fucking believe this nonsense.

i checked the Archie app and...

Sonic Saga Series Volume 2: Order from Chaos is giving Penders top billing.

[RobotnikHolmes]

On 8/30/2016 at 1:58 AM, Tylinos said:

Sorry, maybe I just read in the wrong circles, but isn't the lead story of Knuckles 26 to 28 usually considered some of the absolute worst of that era of the comic?  If there are people who like it, or Ken himself personally finds it a crowning achievement, then more power to them, but I don't generally see it being touted as "one of the series' most popular stories."

For those who don't remember, this was the three-parter about Knuckles' love life, where Knuckles talked to his father about sex, and then attacked Vector because Vector said he was shit at dating.  The art was also pretty...unique, but that wasn't Ken's doing.  (Honestly, aside from the substantially better SegaSonic Arcade backup story, it was really just three issues of filler.)

Well to be honest, as horrible a writer he is, he was the oldest writer to be on the book before the reboot, and most of the stuff he came up with (parts of the world map and the Dark Legion which would later join Eggman and create the Dark Egg Legion chapters) would pave the way somewhat for future ideas. XP

[horridus]

2 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I can't fucking believe this nonsense.

i checked the Archie app and...

Sonic Saga Series Volume 2: Order from Chaos is giving Penders top billing.

Sometimes I have to wonder if that was part of the conditions of the Lawsuit, that he get top billing regardless of how much or how little he did for a book. Cause otherwise I really cannot imagine why Archie would *want* to give him top billing. 

[BlueSky]

Well, this credit thing seems pretty interesting. It's sad when the order is this hard to understand. I can't help but feel this "Penders first" is going to become something akin to "& Knuckles". I can understand Archie trying to be cautious and all, but this is a bit of overreacting from where I stand at least. All I can say to them is...

Quote

"Say after me/
It’s no better to be safe than sorry"

... Yes, I just quoted A-ha ("Take on Me" to be precise) but honestly that was the first thing that came to my mind when reading about that crediting stuff from here. Sorry if you feel disturbed after reading this post.  

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

On 8/30/2016 at 6:28 AM, Tylinos said:

(Can't get rid of quote box cause I'm on phone... -_-)

Anyway, yeah this has something to do with the law suit. That must be why his name appears first on things which had only one story on or something...

But yeah still a bit peeved. Flynn's name should be first, along with several other artists who penciled those stories. 

It's kinda... Peculiar.

[Zaysho]

I'm somewhat unsurprised at this (given the Encyclopedia), but I'm rather baffled by this particular instance of crediting.

"...For a Friend" is Pen's last official contribution to the book, but for him to get top billing for ink and letter work on one story? This is just ridiculous and overcautious. I love that Archie actively acknowledges the work of their inkers, sometimes their colorists and other creators, on the covers for their books. It's a wonderful thing seeing Jim Amash get equal billing right next to Flynn and Yardley. And the reason those names are the main highlights on those covers is because they're the primary contributors on the stories. The rest of the creators, be they other pencilers, inkers, writers, etc. are credited within the book and their pages are practically unaltered.

This is why Penders getting, often times undeserved, top billing always bothers the hell out of me. It's not only misleading, but his name, and the obvious baggage it now carries, serves to overshadow the work of the other creators, and this is beyond fair representation/accreditation to me. I've said it before, but while I don't like that Flynn was credited as a creator in the Knuckles Archives (though never on the cover), the reverse is not better. I know Archie doesn't want another lawsuit (and are basically in the midst of another already), but a tiny bit of common sense on who gets to be on the cover credits would be nice (and obviously clear acknowledgement within the books themselves). Hell, I see nothing wrong with his name being on the cover of the Best of Sonic, but then it makes the exclusion of Gallagher's name all the more glaring and it makes Archie look like they don't care and they're trying to appease the one guy who won't go away even after getting what he wanted.