Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[horridus]

You now, sometimes I honestly feel like some of us should start tracking down the various lies he's told and creating a master list or something, just so that we can have an easy to access reference for all the times he hasn't been honest about something, rather than having to plumb the depths of his twitter or forum. This man really has no right to indulge this kind of self-pity given the various dishonest things he's said and done. 

[RetroRy]

1 minute ago, horridus said:

You now, sometimes I honestly feel like some of us should start tracking down the various lies he's told and creating a master list or something, just so that we can have an easy to access reference for all the times he hasn't been honest about something, rather than having to plumb the depths of his twitter or forum. 

Actually, in response to Ken's response to me, Tenko/Fanged Sniper is again laying out the sanctions that Ken has previously stated in the past on how Archie can use his characters/stories which would basically give him control over the property.  Sanctions you have to dig deep for like you said @horridus because he certainly doesn't make them clear when he is ragging on how Archie is always the mean bully to him:

 

[Tylinos]

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/819651202795212800
https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/819651353945309184
It took some pressure from chaosjam/fairguy, but Ken's at least admitted that Archie would have to pay them.

And yes, Ken, I agree that paying a basic royalty fee for their use is reasonable to want.  But what you don't seem to get when talking about this stuff is that it's still a hurdle to Archie being able to use them.  Like Tenko said: Not only is there very little benefit to them paying extra cash when they can just use the Sega characters, but also it's pretty unlikely Sega would let them sub-contract characters like this without resistance.  And you're perfectly aware of this, Ken.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 minute ago, Tylinos said:

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/819651202795212800
https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/819651353945309184
It took some pressure from chaosjam/fairguy, but Ken's at least admitted that Archie would have to pay them.

And yes, Ken, I agree that paying a basic royalty fee for their use is reasonable.  But what you don't seem to get when talking about this stuff is that it's still a hurdle to Archie using them.  You say that nothing's stopping them from using your stuff, but this is stopping them.  Like Tenko said: Not only is there very little benefit to them paying extra cash when they can just use the Sega characters, but also it's pretty unlikely Sega would let them sub-contract characters like this without resistance.  And you're perfectly aware of this, Ken.

Except the potential costs in money if you and SEGA have a disagreement, the fact your conditions disagree with SEGA's terms and conditions, and many more.

But right, this is Ken Penders, I forgot that he's always in the right.

[horridus]

Boy oh boy, it's certainly turning out to be a Penderiffic day, isn't it? 

Yeah that... doesn't sound like a change at all, Penders. And he's leaving out the fact that those three getting special treatment not only opens the door for a lot of other unreasonable demands, but also impacts Knuckles, a character Penders does not own, never has owned, and never will own. He's basically demanding to be given more of a say in the life of the character than SEGA, and for Archie to go against any of SEGA's wishes while at the same time ensuring that anybody who wants to write about the future will have to abide his wishes when it comes to Knuckles no matter what. It's incredibly unreasonable, especially for someone who would not be working on the book himself. 

Lordy lordy lordy, this man. 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

4 hours ago, horridus said:

You now, sometimes I honestly feel like some of us should start tracking down the various lies he's told and creating a master list or something, just so that we can have an easy to access reference for all the times he hasn't been honest about something, rather than having to plumb the depths of his twitter or forum. This man really has no right to indulge this kind of self-pity given the various dishonest things he's said and done. 

We know you've come to terms with it, Penders. It's evident that's how you live your life every time you open your mouth.

[Kintor]

2 hours ago, horridus said:

Yeah that... doesn't sound like a change at all, Penders. And he's leaving out the fact that those three getting special treatment not only opens the door for a lot of other unreasonable demands, but also impacts Knuckles, a character Penders does not own, never has owned, and never will own. He's basically demanding to be given more of a say in the life of the character than SEGA, and for Archie to go against any of SEGA's wishes while at the same time ensuring that anybody who wants to write about the future will have to abide his wishes when it comes to Knuckles no matter what. It's incredibly unreasonable, especially for someone who would not be working on the book himself. 

Lordy lordy lordy, this man. 

Sheesh, all those posts just for a couple of sentences. Twitter is really the wrong platform for Penders. He needs to find something long form or just stop using the internet.

Also, I agree that it's a bad idea for Penders to get veto powers in regards to those three characters. It's pretty obvious by this point that Penders only has respect for his own work and cares little about the future of the Sonic comics. If given any measure of control he'd just use that power to try and retcon everything that has happened since leaving Archie, to the detriment of the Sonic comics as a whole.

I mean, as someone who's been collecting the back issues, I've recently just finished reading the ‘Knuckles as Enerjak’ story arc (#180 to #184). I have to say that Ian Flynn has done a great job tying up those loose ends left over from the Knuckles the Echidna comic. The fall of Echidna civilisation was brutal but it did bring things closer to the game continuity without an outright extinction event. While at least the Dark Legion, who were always the most interesting element, found new purpose in the Sonic comics by working with Dr Eggman.

So frankly there's no point in giving Penders any input now, he'd never come-up with a better conclusion to those story arcs then what Flynn already managed to provide. Not to mention that Penders would no doubt just cause untold damage to the current story arcs in the comics.

[horridus]

17 minutes ago, Kintor said:

Sheesh, all those posts just for a couple of sentences. Twitter is really the wrong platform for Penders. He needs to find something long form or just stop using the internet.

Also, I agree that it's a bad idea for Penders to get veto powers in regards to those three characters. It's pretty obvious by this point that Penders only has respect for his own work and cares little about the future of the Sonic comics. If given any measure of control he'd just use that power to try and retcon everything that has happened since leaving Archie, to the detriment of the Sonic comics as a whole.

Oh, but Twitter is the PERFECT platform for him- it allows him to better control the flow of information and allows him to banish people who make things inconvenient for him without it being obvious, and because of the nature of how Twitter works, it makes arguing against him hard because of how much effort it takes just to make even a few sentences. Back when he had a forum people would argue with him at length over his decisions, and because anybody could see what was being said, it was very obvious when he was just flat out ignoring facts that his critics would bring up. Even worse, he made a point of not banning anyone without a good reason, which meant many of his harshest critics continued to assail him with things he *didn't* want to hear, and he couldn't get rid of them without it being clear that he did so purely based on their opinions differing since, unhappily for him, none of his critics were ever trolling sorts. On Twitter he has none of these problems. 

Quote

 

I mean, as someone who's been collecting the back issues, I've recently just finished reading the ‘Knuckles as Enerjak’ story arc (#180 to #184). I have to say that Ian Flynn has done a great job tying up those loose ends left over from the Knuckles the Echidna comic. The fall of Echidna civilisation was brutal but it did bring things closer to the game continuity without an outright extinction event. While at least the Dark Legion, who were always the most interesting element, found new purpose in the Sonic comics by working with Dr Eggman.

 

A shame Penders didn't feel the same way. You wanna know what his reaction to that was? To basically berate Flynn for the move and claim that the Dark Legion could 'eat Eggman for Breakfast', and continue to whine about them being turned into his lackies even though by that point it there was little else that could really be done with the Legion beyond killing them all off, given that keeping them around as they used to be just wasn't going to work. Rather than be happy that his creations were getting any continued use or relevance at all, he could only moan about them no longer being as important as they had been when he had been writing. 

[dwitefry666]

On 08/01/2017 at 5:43 AM, horridus said:

Dammit, the board is still doing that thing where it cuts up the link. Okay, you see that "9" up in the address bar? Add "&t=2595", and you should be taken to a post in Ken's forum that outlines the kind of stuff he feels entitled to, which go beyond things like Royalties. Dan DeCarlo and Stan Goldberg were both former contributors to Archie, and DeCarlo in particular was responsible for the distinctive look of Archie's distinct in-house look, as well as the co-creator of Josie and the Pussycats and Sabrina the Teenage Witch. When Universal Studios made a film of Josie, DeCarlo tried to get a share of the profit... which resulted in Archie firing him and removing his name from stories he'd worked on. Sufficed to say, Archie has a very legitimately terrible track record with it's employees... the problem with Ken invoking DeCarlo and Goldberg however is that Penders demands were never simply about royalties. That link is meant to illustrate that his trying to present himself as 'reasonable' is dubious given that he feels like he SHOULD have a continued say in the comic if his characters were to be used. To say nothing of his repeated desire to retain copyright overh is characters even if they had continued use in Archie, something that would result in Archie losing it's contract with SEGA and thus losing the Sonic property. While he is correct that Archie is not a good company, he is leaving out certain details that even a very, very reasonable company would be disinclined to create and thus refusing to acknowledge how they might have impacted past negotiations. 

Oh god I'd forgotten all about the Josie & The Pussycats movie/DeCarlo thing, I remember it happening but I don't think I ever learnt the resolution - I didn't know Archie did that - arseholes. Thanks for the info.

[horridus]

Aand more Business Insights from the Penders. 

So, is this another incident of Ken taking a slip up to ridiculous proportions, just like he said when the delays where proof of something being up with Archie, or is there anything to this?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

"Just as DC and Marvel haven't done".

    

[Tylinos]

7 hours ago, horridus said:

So, is this another incident of Ken taking a slip up to ridiculous proportions, just like he said when the delays where proof of something being up with Archie, or is there anything to this?

Basically, over in the Archie thread, Chaosjam noticed that the option to resub to the Sonic books aren't on the Archie store.  No idea yet if they were intentionally removed, or if it was just an oversight in their latest store redesign.

But the thing Ken pointed out about having a "fire sale" on Sonic back stock?  While that's true, and it could potentially be a sign of Archie wanting to get rid of their Sonic books, what Ken doesn't mention is that they're holding the EXACT SAME SALE on a number of graphic novels from their OWN properties as well.  Even the Life With Archie books are currently selling at about 65% off.

Short version: Yes, Archie may be trying to get out of the Sonic series.  No, Ken's talk of fire sales and Marvel/DC nonsense (as Ryannumber1gamer pointed out) isn't the hard evidence he thinks it is.

 

EDIT: Afro Thunder and Miru pointed out below that the above properties are technically owned by Marvel and DC's parent companies, so licensing isn't an issue with them.  Fair enough, there.

[horridus]

6 minutes ago, Tylinos said:

Basically, over in the Archie thread, Chaosjam noticed that the option to resub to the Sonic books aren't on the Archie store.  No idea yet if they were intentionally removed, or if it was just an oversight in their latest store redesign.

But the thing Ken pointed out about having a "fire sale" on Sonic back stock?  While that's true, and it could potentially be a sign of Archie wanting to get rid of their Sonic books, what Ken doesn't mention is that they're holding the EXACT SAME SALE on a number of graphic novels from their OWN properties as well.  Even the Life With Archie books are currently selling at about 65% off.

Short version: Yes, Archie may be trying to get out of the Sonic series.  No, Ken's talk of fire sales and Marvel/DC nonsense (as Ryannumber1gamer pointed out) isn't the hard evidence he thinks it is.

Hm, be unfortunate if they did given that they stuck with the book even after it was gutted, and with the upcoming new games sure to draw a bit more attention to the book itself. How nice of Penders to neglect to mention THAT part though, though I can't say I'm particularly surprised. Given the last few times Penders started screaming about the impending doom of the comic it didn't play out, I'd like to think that this is just him getting ahead of himself like he did those times as well. Particularly since Flynn not too long ago mentioned how subscription sales have been steadily climbing for the Sonic books, and if something was about to happen, I'd think he would have mentioned something or been informed about it ahead of time. 

We'll see though. 

[Kintor]

I still think that Penders' logic in regards to Riverdale is entirely flawed. The Sonic comics have been a lifeline for Archie since the 90s, providing a steady revenue stream for over 20 years now. Even if Riverdale is a success it will still be within Archie's best interest to keep the Sonic comic going, to help keep the business diversified and protected from downturns in Riverdale's fortunes.

Furthermore, the only way that Archie would reasonable drop the Sonic comics is if they can no longer afford the licence from Sega. This means that if Riverdale were to fail, as could likely happen, Archie might lose everything and thus no longer be able to afford their licenced comic lines. In this scenario I expect the bankruptcy and potential takeover of Archie to follow the short-sighted cancellation of the Sonic comics.

Because whether Archie wants to admit it or not their in-house IPs don't have the same pull with modern audiences. Riverdale is designed to compensate for that weakness but thus far it's only managed to anger Archie’s few remaining existing fans. This means that Archie really does need the Sonic comics now more than ever. Only the tireless loyalty of the Sonic fanbase, who have supported the Sonic comics since the beginning, can protect Archie from their own mistakes.

5 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

 

Incidentally, Scooby Apocalypse is actually a pretty good series. I've bought the first nine issues so far (all that have been released) and I plan to continue supporting this comic.

So yes, it's a dark and violent post-apocalyptic reboot of Scooby-Doo but it actually works as a fun story. This is because the versions of the characters here remain true to their roots. Think of it as kind of like Shawn of the Dead, where you have a dysfunctional group of people (and their talking dog...) caught in the middle of the apocalypse. Besides, this being Scooby-Doo, there's still a mystery to solve; as the team tries to uncover the reason why the apocalypse suddenly happened and also if there is a way to reverse the damage.

[Afro Thunder]

So in short, Ken is secretly hoping that if the Sonic license was dropped by Archie, he would have a shot at being able to get a hold of it and continue where he left off?

With Penders, it doesn't seem that far fetched he would do that, but at the same time, he should realize that SEGA has rights to everything in the comic, so they could go to Boom! comics, IDW, or virtually anywhere else and continue where Archie left off. Example: the comic license for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is currently owned by IDW, and they also gained the rights to reprint some of the old Mirage comics as well. SEGA could easily do the same thing, though getting the rights to reprint the older Archie comics would be messy, considering the muddy legal situation with some of the comic's creators.

And as for the Big Two licensing stuff like Scooby Doo and Star Wars, those IPs and publishers are owned by the same respective parent companies (Star Wars and Marvel are under the Disney banner, and Warner Bros./Turner owns everything Hanna-Barbera and DC), so they can do whatever the hell they want with em.

[horridus]

56 minutes ago, Kintor said:

I still think that Penders' logic in regards to Riverdale is entirely flawed. The Sonic comics have been a lifeline for Archie since the 90s, providing a steady revenue stream for over 20 years now. Even if Riverdale is a success it will still be within Archie's best interest to keep the Sonic comic going, to help keep the business diversified and protected from downturns in Riverdale's fortunes.

Since when is Penders' logic *not* flawed? Last year he claimed that the book wouldn't last past 2016. Before that, he claimed that the problems with the subscriptions were surefire evidence that the book was in trouble and that it was going to be cancelled because of it. Before THAT he claimed that Boom would lead to a reboot of the series and become the new face of Sonic. And even before *that* he was certain that Sonic Universe wouldn't last a year. Penders has never been correct about any of his doomsday predictions, and if he's right this time it's because he's screamed it so many times by this point in time that the law of averages have finally come out in his favor. 

You're correct though. I think if Riverdale *fails* it will be more likely to doom the comic than it being successful. We'll see though. 

38 minutes ago, Afro Thunder said:

So in short, Ken is secretly hoping that if the Sonic license was dropped by Archie, he would have a shot at being able to get a hold of it and continue where he left off?

With Penders, it doesn't seem that far fetched he would do that, but at the same time, he should realize that SEGA has rights to everything in the comic, so they could go to Boom! comics, IDW, or virtually anywhere else and continue where Archie left off. Example: the comic license for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is currently owned by IDW, and they also gained the rights to reprint some of the old Mirage comics as well. SEGA could easily do the same thing, though getting the rights to reprint the older Archie comics would be messy, considering the muddy legal situation with some of the comic's creators.

And as for the Big Two licensing stuff like Scooby Doo and Star Wars, those IPs and publishers are owned by the same respective parent companies (Star Wars and Marvel are under the Disney banner, and Warner Bros./Turner owns everything Hanna-Barbera and DC), so they can do whatever the hell they want with em.

He's never said anything like that, beyond mentioning his desire to try and lisence and print out Knuckles books. That said, it wouldn't be surprising if he wanted something along those lines. 

You are correct that if SEGA wanted to keep a Sonic comic going, then in all likelihood it'd go to Boom or to IDW, and in the event of that happening the book would either be completely reinvented, or simply pick up where it left off. It's actually been speculated that if that were to happen, the pre-reboot continuity would be completely discarded given that, given all the people involved, it would simply be more trouble than it is worth, and they'd be more likely to focus on the post-reboot continuity assuming they didn't simply start everything from scratch. 

[Multikaris]

6 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

"Just as DC and Marvel haven't done".

    

Disney owns both Marvel and Star Wars. The Marvel Comics of other Disney things do not count. 

 

And Time Warner owns DC as well as Gran- I mean Flintstones and the rest of Hanna-Barbera (other than Swat Kats, which the creators got back). That probably doesn't count unless DC is very distanced from Turner. 

 

(And concerning the "many years" part, Marvel still made Ren and Stimpy, Beavis and Butthead, etc. as late as the 90s, and in the 2000s, they even had one based on a relatively obscure book.

[CleverSonicUsername]

20 hours ago, Afro Thunder said:

So in short, Ken is secretly hoping that if the Sonic license was dropped by Archie, he would have a shot at being able to get a hold of it and continue where he left off?

 

It wouldn't surprise me if he thought that. IIRC he was tweeting some garbage about wanting to come on for issue 300. I seriously doubt SEGA wants to do business with some asswipe that sued them.

Also I like how Penders is playing armchair publisher, speculating that Archie is pulling out of licensed comics. Like, they very well could, but it's cute coming from a guy who can't even pinch out one chapter of his own series. 

[horridus]

1 hour ago, CleverSonicUsername said:

It wouldn't surprise me if he thought that. IIRC he was tweeting some garbage about wanting to come on for issue 300. I seriously doubt SEGA wants to do business with some asswipe that sued them.

Also I like how Penders is playing armchair publisher, speculating that Archie is pulling out of licensed comics. Like, they very well could, but it's cute coming from a guy who can't even pinch out one chapter of his own series. 

Yeah, we covered that some pages ago, including his subsequent meltdown that, due to the timing, made it look like he was ticked that it wasn't gonna happen. 

Yeah, it's rather amusing and galling that Penders still claims credibility as an industry insighter, given that he hasn't been a part of the industry for ten years now and was never involved in the business side of things to begin with. 

Speaking of subscriptions, found something interesting- Sonic and Sonic Universe subscriptions are still available on Comixology. Not sure what that indicates with regards to Archie, but still, here's hoping. 

Edit: Aaand apparently the indication is nada due to Comixology being third party. Guess we really won't know anything for certain until tuesday. 

[RetroRy]

Oh look guys, "credible source" confirms Sonic is ending.

Yeah you are saved by a stupid-ass and confusing plot device in the mess leftover when YOU LEFT the book.  You neglected to participate anymore/play ball with SEGA and only filed for copyrights long after all your other avenues didn't work out.  I'm fairly certain Ken could have cared less about the comic when he left.

[horridus]

He is doubtlessly referring to the Bleeding Cool article that has pretty much put the rumor in the mainstream, as Tylinos mentioned in the Archie thread. Much like Penders himself, the article neglects to mention that it isn't just Sonic books undergoing large sales, and while it could indeed be indicative of them wanting to jump ship, it's not exactly uniquely happening to Sonic. It's not the first time- during a Comic-Con he tried to spread a rumor that Archie didn't have a Sonic panel that year, and cited Bleeding Cool's coverage as 'proof'... when in fact, Archie WAS there, with the Sonic panel as usual. 

For that second statement though... oh my fucking God seriously? He's STILL trying to push that asinine claim that Eggman is his because Robo-Robotnik was used to bring the design in the comic? Oh my fucking lord.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

51 minutes ago, chaosjam said:

Oh look guys, "credible source" confirms Sonic is ending.

Yeah you are saved by a stupid-ass and confusing plot device in the mess leftover when YOU LEFT the book.  You neglected to participate anymore/play ball with SEGA and only filed for copyrights long after all your other avenues didn't work out.  I'm fairly certain Ken could have cared less about the comic when he left.

God, daily dose of stupid right guys? First off, you heard it right here, right now. He's pretty much trying to pretend that The New252 Eggman *WHICH IS CONFIRMED TO BE THE SEGA EGGMAN MIND* is Robo-Robotnik, who's pretty much Eggman anyway only with a different origin so the point is moot. On top of that, the only good thing Penders did was a tone shift in the comic. Other than that, he got a free ride on the coattails of Sonic's popularity, and pretending he's the reason it's lasted this long? Fuck off.

[Tylinos]

Ken, seriously, whether the comic is ending or not, there is no fire sale specifically on Sonic.  Please do a little research before you make these claims.  But hey, I was bored last night, so I went and did the work for you in case you started this again.

Out of the 32 books in the Sonic & Mega Man section, the average sale on them is 55% off.  Seems pretty big until you realize that out of the 65 books in the main Archie section, the average sale there is 50% off.  The Sonic sale's slightly bigger, but those numbers are both really close.  Heck, the only reason the Archie number's even the lower one is because some of Archie's absolute newest books are only on sale for a dollar or two off.  There's an absolute ton of Archie books at over 60% off.
 

2 minutes ago, horridus said:

For that second statement though... oh my fucking God seriously? He's STILL trying to push that asinine claim that Eggman is his because Robo-Robotnik was used to bring the design in the comic? Oh my fucking lord.

Okay, Ken, you've actually surprised me.  I didn't think you could get that pedantic about what counts as "yours".

[horridus]

It's mind boggling. He didn't even write that story or design that design, and the character of Robo-Robotnik is literally an other dimensional version of Robotnik. How the hell can he insist though that Eggman is 'his'???

Edit:

Does he... does he not process that this doesn't help his case? Like at all??

[CleverSonicUsername]

Again, not too enamored with the comic and I don't think it would affect me personally if it was cancelled, but I do hope that's not the case. If only because the world doesn't need a Ken Penders emboldened by an Archie Sonic cancellation. The guy is already so smug yet wrong about everything that it takes on almost a Trumpian level of "how does this motherfucker's head even work?"