Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[RetroRy]

Hey did you guys know that Robo-Robotnik-Eggman has been in the post-reboot this whole time no matter what current writers, editors, people with common sense say? All hail Penders for his unquestionable knowledge!!!

Seriously like Sorcerer Lance and myself disput to him on Twitter, he used the Robo-Robotnik plot device to introduce an in-canon explication to the Adventure redesign (not as bad as Sonic's but lets not go there).  Fleetway did it too, it wasn't an original concept to begin with. And it has been clearly stated the current Eggman is not Ken's "Medieval Spawn" variant, it's not even Archie's character, it's Sega's character like it always has been.

But if it appears in a comic book, of course it has to be "stealing" Ken's "original" character. ?

[horridus]

It's ludicrous. And bringing up Gaiman v McFarlane only weakens his argument further given that the Judge in that trial even pointed out that if the 'Dark Ages' Spawn chracter had been created by another comic they'd have been sued over their resemblance to Medieval Spawn both visually and conceptually. 

Christ Almighty please don't tell me THAT is what the 'breach of agreement' he's been hinting at is about. If he honestly thinks the comic still using Eggman is somehow a breach of terms of whatever the hell the agreement said, I think I might honestly have an aneurysm. 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

So random thought for you all:

https://board.sonicstadium.org/profile/2255-senedtor-missile/?status=847082&type=status

[CleverSonicUsername]

That's like saying an Elseworlds interpretation of Bruce Wayne is a wholly original character and not just another take on Bruce Wayne.

Robo-robotnik's backstory is 1:1 with original Robotnik's with the exception that he had to roboticize himself and that he defeated his universe's Sonic. He's literally the same character with a few quirks added, which makes Ken's contribution profoundly minor. That's not even getting into the fact that post-reboot Eggman is pretty much just Eggman from the games.

 

So random thought for you all:

https://board.sonicstadium.org/profile/2255-senedtor-missile/?status=847082&type=status

 

What if someone made a character based on Lara-Su, deviated from her design and backstory slightly, and then tried to make money off of it. Would Penders freak out or is that fair game?

[Tylinos]

You know what?  It occurred to me why he's claiming this about Eggman.  I had an inkling when he first said it, but I ignored it because it didn't make sense until just now.  The problem is, we're thinking from the perspective of having actually read the post-reboot comic.  Ken, as far as anyone can tell, hasn't.  He's making assumptions from a summary.

He never read the exchanges Eggman had in Countdown to Chaos where he discussed how reality completely re-wrote itself, and how Eggman himself was completely different down to a molecular level. (Exchanges which seem to exist completely to say "Hey, Ken, Robo-Robotnik has been erased from existence, and Eggman's last memories of him are about to be gone too.")  He still thinks this is the same character in a new universe.

[horridus]

To say nothing of the fact that while Eggman was not referenced directly, bits and pieces of his differing origin have been revealed in the comics already, most notably the detail that he used to work for GUN and that in the past he looked like his classic game self. If he honestly could spout off like that while not actually reading a damn thing to confirm it.... goooood lord, this guy. 

Edit:

Somehow this does nothing to help with that aneurysm feeling. 

[CleverSonicUsername]

4 hours ago, horridus said:

 

Somehow this does nothing to help with that aneurysm feeling. 

 

I'm convinced Penders is just a narcissist. He's constantly jumping through hoops in his mind trying to inflate his own sense of worth, pontificating about how recolors are totally original characters and he's the victim of... something. He's kind of lazy too, because for the years he's been prattling on about The Lara-Su Chronicles, he has barely anything to show for it. It's asking a lot of a narcissist to pull their head out of their ass, but Penders really needs to let this go and get to work self publishing that dreck of his. God knows he's unhireable at this point, no publisher in their right mind is going to employ a man who bites the hand that feeds.

All that said, I think there's really no point in trying to reason with him. No matter what argument you make, Penders is so convinced in his own mind that he's right, and he's super special, and that everyone is worse off without him, that nothing anybody can say will shake his resolve.

[horridus]

It's not just that- it's how *insane* the whole line of reasoning is and how I cannot, in the name of all creation, comprehend how anything like that could be considered remotely legal from any standpoint. Robo-Robotnik was not something he created outside of Sonic or Archie for his own work. Robo-Robotnik is a literal copy of Robotnik, created to *be* a literal copy of Robotnik save for a single difference, with a near identical backstory that contains an explicit point of divergence. Everything about him, every last little thing is done in refletion of a character that Penders didn't create, didn't own, and never created or owned to begin with, and who ever only saw use outside of Penders because an in-universe reason for the Eggman design being brought in was needed. 

*Nothing* about this character is original. Nothing at all. Nothing about him was conceived of for originality. And yet for being the means by which to bring things more in line with the games, PEnders *still* regards him as the same character, and treats him as being the same despite a massive, reality altering event establishing that right down to his *molecules*, that Eggman is no longer nor has he ever been the character of Robo -Robotnik, right down to his history being different, but still Penders seems to think that he should be treated as *his* character, and feels that this is an issue worth raising with regards to whatever the hell is going on with him and Archie. 

I just... the logic at work here is just so incredibly *warped* that trying to comprehend how anybody, even somebody like Penders, could earnestly believe it and believe it to be legally sound is just staggering. Yet here we are, with a grown man claiming that he should own a character used in a book, who is the chief villain of a franchise he doesn't own, who has been worked over to no longer be the 'character' he was previously, and yet somehow, *that isn't enough for this guy*. 

[horridus]

Apologies for the double posts, but with everyone's eyes on the Archie thread, I didn't want this to fly under the radar. As you can guess, Penders twitter is exploding, particularly since he is now officially in a slap fight with the guy who wrote the TSSZ article. Quite the spectacle. 

Amidst that though is Penders revealing more plans for the Work That Will Never Be. 

 

Sooo yeah, rather than 'just' using 144, he now feels entitled to include the ENTIRE 25YL arc as a lead-in to LSC. Boy, if the ugly artwork of LSC proper wasn't enough to drive away potential new buyers.... buuut yeah, evidently this is 'reasonable' to him. Mr. Reasonable right here folks. 

As for that feud I mentioned, well.... 

This is how it started out. Real lovely glass house our boy Penders lives in. I can't even really muster the energy to bring up all the times he's lied or ommitted details. Just above we have a whole discussion about him leaving out that the 'fire sale' going on isn't unique to Sonic's book, to say nothing of the other myriad, myriad stunts he's pulled that have made him into a deeply untrustworthy individual. Anyone else care to take a crack at it?

[CleverSonicUsername]

25 Years Later is a bad story, and as far as I'm concerned he can have it.

Also as for how insane his reasoning is, I would still chalk that up to extreme narcissism. Far be it from me to play armchair psychologist, though. Just calling it like I see it.

[Tylinos]

That initial tweet about BlazeHedgehog/Ryan Bloom was...weird, to say the least.  Maybe I'm remembering wrong, much as Ryan admitted he did before Ken even criticized him in the first place, but wasn't Tristan's habit of editorializing and shaky fact-checking what gave TSSZ its past reputation?  Why hold him in particular up as the beacon to be compared to?

The whole exchange between Ken and Ryan was...awkward, to say the least, and most of it isn't worth discussing.  However...

 

Quote

I can accept something critical of me as long as the facts are correct. Getting criticized comes with the job.

Ken, you've shown a habit of not wanting to accept facts when they make you look bad, and often complain about being targeted when people confront you with them.  That, or you just ignore people who point out facts. (Doing that's at least a bit more understandable.)  I've even seen at least one (unconfirmed) report of someone being blocked for pointing out that Ken did something shitty, while Ken proceeded to argue back with the person unable to respond. (Though, again, I can't really confirm how accurate this is without seeing the original tweets about it.  They might be exaggerating the situation.)

 

Quote

All I've ever sought is FAIR treatment for the use of my work. Archie had the capacity to resolve this amicably.

Also, we have this.  Wanting royalties for the use of your work is completely fair and understandable.  But claiming, for example, post-reboot Eggman as yours because he overwrote and replaced an Eggman who used to be Robo-Robotnik is just pure greed.

 

EDIT: Added in quotes because the actual tweets keep not showing up for me.

[CleverSonicUsername]

Most writers don't retain rights over characters they create for licensed series, or properties that they aren't the sole creator of. The fact that Penders got to walk with his is more than generous. I don't know what fair shake he's expecting at this point, he already got more than most people would.

 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

5 minutes ago, CleverSonicUsername said:

Most writers don't retain rights over characters they create for licensed series, or properties that they aren't the sole creator of. The fact that Penders got to walk with his is more than generous. I don't know what fair shake he's expecting at this point, he already got more than most people would.

 

Total control over something he doesn't own, total protection from editors for his work, and absolute cock-sucking from everyone for whatever he chooses to do regardless if his work actually merits praise or not.

[Tenko]

Ugh..he is still throwing out that "NEVER any contracts" line. If Archie had a copy that was submitted (regardless of the fact it was dismissed due to being a non sighted copy) in court, then it must have been copied from an original at one point. Besides out and out claiming Archie is guilty of fraud, and that they created a counterfeit document and forged his signature, I don't see how he can keep claiming there were never any contracts at all. He goes on about being fair and wanting people to not be misled by false information etc yet he is quite often guilty of these very things!

Edit : Damn, now he's gone from "being unable to remember signing said contract" and perhaps doubting its legitimate, to just what I said, out and out accusing Archie of fraud. Pretty bold and serious accusations to be making to be sure.

[johnboy3434]

3 hours ago, SenEDtor Missile said:

Total control over something he doesn't own, total protection from editors for his work, and absolute cock-sucking from everyone for whatever he chooses to do regardless if his work actually merits praise or not.

Having perused a few topics on his board, I get the impression that even his fans don't like him. For example, when he unveiled the cover image for the first book of LSC, the response was universally negative from everyone who wasn't a mod or Penders himself (assuming the two aren't identical).

Also, an opinion question for everyone in this thread: Do you honestly think LSC is ever going to be published in any capacity? Because I don't. We've had a cover and two story pages teased over the course of God knows how many years. Even if we ignore the potential legal issues that Sega may be ready to pounce with, or the problems of him finding a publisher for this monstrosity, I just don't think he has sufficient work ethic to put out the finished product.

[Tylinos]

12 minutes ago, johnboy3434 said:

...the response was universally negative from everyone who wasn't a mod or Penders himself (assuming the two aren't identical).

Just to be clear, assuming you're talking about his main mod BobR (since this isn't the first time someone's said he might just be Penders under a different name), BobR's been shown to be a real person who's been friends with Ken in real life for a while.

 

12 minutes ago, johnboy3434 said:

Do you honestly think LSC is ever going to be published in any capacity? Because I don't. We've had a cover and two story pages teased over the course of God knows how many years. Even if we ignore the potential legal issues that Sega may be ready to pounce with, or the problems of him finding a publisher for this monstrosity, I just don't think he has sufficient work ethic to put out the finished product.

Personally, I do think it'll come out eventually, though I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if it took another few years for that to happen.  I think the problem's not so much not having the drive to finish as it is that he keeps making ridiculous promises with deadlines that he can't keep.  He's massively overestimating how quickly he can finish everything, and just doesn't learn his lesson about that.

[horridus]

3 hours ago, Tenko said:

Ugh..he is still throwing out that "NEVER any contracts" line. If Archie had a copy that was submitted (regardless of the fact it was dismissed due to being a non sighted copy) in court, then it must have been copied from an original at one point. Besides out and out claiming Archie is guilty of fraud, and that they created a counterfeit document and forged his signature, I don't see how he can keep claiming there were never any contracts at all. He goes on about being fair and wanting people to not be misled by false information etc yet he is quite often guilty of these very things!

Edit : Damn, now he's gone from "being unable to remember signing said contract" and perhaps doubting its legitimate, to just what I said, out and out accusing Archie of fraud. Pretty bold and serious accusations to be making to be sure.

Penders has at times stated that he was 'ignorant of his rights' at times. To put it bluntly, I find it incredibly difficult to believe that anybody, especially somebody with prior working experiance in the comic book industry, could earnestly be THAT misinformed about their rights or go for ten years without having any issue with it whatsoever. Particularly since Penders had demonstrated that he at least possesses enough knowledge of ARchie's obligations to properly cite that everything made by Archie is owned by SEGA as per their contract. That Penders and his co-workers could possibly be THAT content to work without contracts, be that stupid and ignorant about what their rights were? Is a bit much to process. It doesn't help though that everyone involved has every reason to lie and to maintain the deception. There's just no way to get to the truth- Archie cannot produce the original contracts, but has sworn in court that they existed at one point. 

It's ironic because based on certain things Penders has said about certain people regarding their voting habits (which we will not get into here), people who exhibit gross foolishness evidently deserve whatever they get because of it. By his rationale, he deserves no sympathy. 

10 minutes ago, johnboy3434 said:

Also, an opinion question for everyone in this thread: Do you honestly think LSC is ever going to be published in any capacity? Because I don't. We've had a cover and two story pages teased over the course of God knows how many years. Even if we ignore the potential legal issues that Sega may be ready to pounce with, or the problems of him finding a publisher for this monstrosity, I just don't think he has sufficient work ethic to put out the finished product.

I'm swiftly losing confidence that it will ever be a thing myself. Even accounting for the fact that Penders is doing this entirely on his own, his progress since the time he first announced it to the present time has been incredibly limited. In the years that have passed since he first announced it, his only signs of progress have been incredibly, astounding limited, all the while he focuses his attention on tie-in products to sell for a book that hasn't been released while speculating on the franchise *possibilities*. Even accounting for his various other excuses, he should at least have SOMETHING of substance to indicate that he's actually getting somewhere with this, but so far? Nothing. I'm almost convinced that he's tossing out bits and pieces of art and those stupid bios as a means of looking like he's getting stuff done without actually really doing anything of sbustance. 

[Tylinos]

I think I'm just going to let this one speak for itself.

[horridus]

Given the previous naming conventions utilized, shouldn't it just be Artemis, who is a "Ry'no" or a "Rhinocerotidae"?

I mean, I'm rather glad that he's actually making a reasonably drastic change, but... dude, do NOT bring up the fact that this guy used to be Rotor, and do not do the whole 'the' thing that Sonic characters do. It doesn't cover up the fact that this is a derivative of Sonic, and given that this is supposedly a hard science fiction story, it just isn't fitting. Then again neither is the abundance of alien characters with names distintly mired in human languages... 

[Tylinos]

Just now, horridus said:

I mean, I'm rather glad that he's actually making a reasonably drastic change, but... dude, do NOT bring up the fact that this guy used to be Rotor, and do not do the whole 'the' thing that Sonic characters do.

1000 times this.  From name and species alone, it's already a giant step up from K'nox in being a stand-in who doesn't feel paper-thin, but outright calling him a replacement for Rotor feels...silly.  When Ian repopulated the comic after the reboot, he didn't advertise characters as being replacements for removed characters, and even went out of his way to make it clear he wasn't trying to "replace" anyone.

Point is, as long as Ken makes Artemis feel like a genuinely new character that's just filling Rotor's role rather than "yeah this is Rotor in all but name and look", then we're cool.

[horridus]

Now if only he'd do the same to the rest of the setting and the various Sonic related bits of terminology. Mobius, Kintobor, "Princess Acorn" and "Blue Spined Erinicidae", if he can similarly discard these things in favor of truly original content... well it'd still be inept and horribly done, but at the very least he'd be showing himself as willing to wean himself off the reliance on Sonic stuff. 

Shame about the Echyd'nya though, that's gonna be an albatross around his neck no matter what. 

[The Tenth Doctor]

Ken, the drawing board should have been years ago. Coming up with a character change that was really important in your original story is something you think of at the beginning of the project. Further proof this guy will never finish his project.

[horridus]

4 minutes ago, The Tenth Doctor said:

Ken, the drawing board should have been years ago. Coming up with a character change that was really important in your original story is something you think of at the beginning of the project. Further proof this guy will never finish his project.

Oh, the kind of trouble this guy could have saved himself if he had done stuff like this from the start rather than loudy declaring how intent he was at riding Sonic's coattails. It probably is too little too late, but given the nonstop stream of headbangingly stupid and hypocritical stuff we've seen from this guy and his efforts at 'distancing' his work from Sonic- by doing as little as possible towards that end- it's nice to get maybe a hint that he might have a better idea of how to do it. 

Not that I expect him to, but hey, it's nice to be surprised every now and then.

[CleverSonicUsername]

5 hours ago, johnboy3434 said:

 

Also, an opinion question for everyone in this thread: Do you honestly think LSC is ever going to be published in any capacity? Because I don't. We've had a cover and two story pages teased over the course of God knows how many years. Even if we ignore the potential legal issues that Sega may be ready to pounce with, or the problems of him finding a publisher for this monstrosity, I just don't think he has sufficient work ethic to put out the finished product.

I wouldn't rule it out completely, but right now I hedge on the side of "nope." He seems far more engrossed in Twitter drama and whining about his previous employer (always a good look) than he is in LSC. The funny thing about art and production is that you won't get anywhere dwelling in the past. Reflect on it, learn from it, and use that to push forward. If you lack the commitment to improve, and you lack the drive to press forward, you're not going to produce a damn thing. Ken needs to shut Twitter off and put pen to paper or he's never going to get anywhere.

I draw comics on the side, it's a fun hobby but I do treat it with some amount of seriousness. In the years I've been doing it I've found that the most vital quality an artist can have is dedication. Motivation and inspiration are fickle things, they come and go. It's important to make the best use of them when they come, but it's paramount that you learn how to proceed even when they may not be there. Dedication can be learned, you can devote yourself to something, set attainable goals and a schedule, and work.

As far as I can tell, Penders lacks dedication. He has barely created anything substantial. He's caught in that phase where you keep making concept art and promo images and talking about all the great things you're going to do, but he doesn't have the work ethic needed to actually make a damn comic.

tl;dr I'm tired and rambly, my answer is "probably not!"

[Inkarnate]

6 hours ago, Tylinos said:

I think I'm just going to let this one speak for itself.

Is it more sad that I laughed at this or that this man was one of my writing influences as a young writer?