Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[NikoS]

*Enters Room

 - Well, it's been a while, i wonder what that Penders guy is up 2...

*sees latest posts

*exits room

Instant regret

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Well, now I just feel like I want to throw up. I literally want to throw up.

I guess this is what it looks like when ignorance feeds arrogance.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

4 hours ago, horridus said:

So, it's finally happened- he's finally begun to downplay Spaz of all people just make himself look better. Because the fact he knew somebody who was a fan makes him a more passioante individual about the whole thing than a guy who actually WAS a fan, and who actually sat down and played through Sonic Adventure sust so they'd be able to make that stupid adaptation in the comics. This from a man who boasted about never playing the games or reading his co-workers' work and who pretty clearly never really bothered all that much with the show it was originally meant to to tie-in to. 

Slight addition to that point, Spaziante was a man who went to the lengths of importing the Japanese version of Adventure because by the time the crew got their hands on a US copy, it would've been too late to tie in. Not only did Spaz do that, but also then had to try translate the game and it's story from Japanese to English just to get a feasible story out of it.

What did Penders do during this? Well for one, instead of proper Knuckles story, we had his lore shoehorned in, we had a weird as fuck sidestory with Locke literally taking off his clothes and fighting with a queen of a cat colony Star-Trek style, all the while people praised Locke, while the Chaotix were kidnapped and turned into butt-monkeys.

This is the man who's trying to claim he had more love, and passion for this series than the fucking man who went out of his way to import a copy of a game he didn't even understand in an era where I'm sure it would've been significantly more difficult to import and translate games from different countries, and said person only did this out of their love for the series.

Penders, fuck off. 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

Belittling Spaz now Penders? C'mon.

[The Tenth Doctor]

Hey Ken. May want to think for a second. You get paid pittance at conventions for your drawings at conventions, so small commission jobs. Spaz kept working on the comic and look WHAT HE'S JUST DONE.

The again I guess having passion doesn't matter to a fella who has a kid who plays the game.

To tie this in, I think we all agree he would get more done if he just quit Twitter. His procrastination is pathetic at this point.

 

Edited July 30, 2017 by The Tenth Doctor
Spelling mistake

[Zaysho]

Spaz is the one that breathed life in most of Pen's ideas be it with his amazing cover work or just designing many of Pen's original characters and concepts. The man is responsible for Julie-Su's look for crying out loud. Jesus, this guy.

 

7 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

What did Penders do during this? Well for one, instead of proper Knuckles story, we had his lore shoehorned in, we had a weird as fuck sidestory with Locke literally taking off his clothes and fighting with a queen of a cat colony Star-Trek style, all the while people praised Locke, while the Chaotix were kidnapped and turned into butt-monkeys.

The only thing I'd say to this, in fairness, was that they needed to adapt the new SEGA lore into the existing lore.

 

He just did it in the most half-hearted manner possible because the SEGA lore completely contradicted his word (which was never final).

[Ryannumber1gamer]

4 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Spaz is the one that breathed life in most of Pen's ideas be it with his amazing cover work or just designing many of Pen's original characters and concepts. The man is responsible for Julie-Su's look for crying out loud. Jesus, this guy.

 

The only thing I'd say to this, in fairness, was that they needed to adapt the new SEGA lore into the existing lore.

 

He just did it in the most half-hearted manner possible because the SEGA lore completely contradicted his word (which was never final).

I don't have so much of an issue with trying to tie elements together, but shit like glorifying his own canon, glorifying his characters, especially Locke at the expense of the other characters, and especially the bullshit ending to the entire arc that reduces Super Sonic into a fucking joke, I still say he's fucked up big time.

God, I really need to recreate that rant on the Adventure arc I did way back when because it's one of the arcs I absolutely despise in this series.

[Zaysho]

Just now, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I don't have so much of an issue with trying to tie elements together, but shit like glorifying his own canon, glorifying his characters, especially Locke at the expense of the other characters, and especially the bullshit ending to the entire arc that reduces Super Sonic into a fucking joke, I still say he's fucked up big time.

God, I really need to recreate that rant on the Adventure arc I did way back when because it's one of the arcs I absolutely despise in this series.

Oh, no, I agree. Like I said, it's half-hearted because it went against what he tried to establish.

It's even more ridiculous because he just... made up another set of characters specifically to get his own spin on the lore which he didn't even need to do. Like, how hard would it have been to work in Athair's whole deal, or the stuff with Albion, or whatever into this without sidelining everyone else? I'm not much of a writer, but it seems like the pieces to the puzzle were already there, but he just wanted nothing to do with what Adventure did.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, Zaysho said:

Oh, no, I agree. Like I said, it's half-hearted because it went against what he tried to establish.

It's even more ridiculous because he just... made up another set of characters specifically to get his own spin on the lore which he didn't even need to do. Like, how hard would it have been to work in Athair's whole deal, or the stuff with Albion, or whatever into this without sidelining everyone else? I'm not much of a writer, but it seems like the pieces to the puzzle were already there, but he just wanted nothing to do with what Adventure did.

Hell, even Adventure established that the Knuckles tribe was only one of many many different tribes. Why not establish that maybe there was multiple tribes of Echidnas out there? Maybe Tikal and co's tribe could've had a rivalry with the Brotherhood or whatever, or what if the brotherhood was attempting to weaponize Chaos and the Chaos Emeralds, which caused Chaos' outbreak and forced Tikal to seal him away?

Oh right, because that would establish that A. Not all echidnas are controlled by his bullshit creations, and B. show actual character flaws with one of the most despicable groups to ever exist in this series. 

[Zaysho]

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

what if the brotherhood was attempting to weaponize Chaos and the Chaos Emeralds, which caused Chaos' outbreak and forced Tikal to seal him away?

This would, quite honestly, make for a very interesting story. Especially since at this point in the comic, Knuckles is trying to learn about his past and his roots. But I suppose the implication that the Brotherhood aren't perfect little angels just doesn't jive.

Which is odd because it's not like he didn't throw in such things either with the Dingo Regime or even the Dark Legion's side of things, unless now I'm just imagining things.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, Zaysho said:

This would, quite honestly, make for a very interesting story. Especially since at this point in the comic, Knuckles is trying to learn about his past and his roots. But I suppose the implication that the Brotherhood aren't perfect little angels just doesn't jive.

Which is odd because it's not like he didn't throw in such things either with the Dingo Regime or even the Dark Legion's side of things, unless now I'm just imagining things.

It honestly could've lead to *gasp* character development. Knuckles learns that the brotherhood are nowhere near as nice or perfect as they pretend to be, and Knuckles questions the roles they want him to fulfil. He doesn't want to become as evil and selfish as the brotherhood, who'll weaponize and allow people to suffer for their own wants and needs in the name of "justice". This causes Knux to forge his own path, potentially creating conflict between him and Locke. 

But nope, they're perfect and everyone loves them and everything they do is perfect.

And now I remember why I absolutely despise the Brotherhood too.

[horridus]

8 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Oh, no, I agree. Like I said, it's half-hearted because it went against what he tried to establish.

It's even more ridiculous because he just... made up another set of characters specifically to get his own spin on the lore which he didn't even need to do. Like, how hard would it have been to work in Athair's whole deal, or the stuff with Albion, or whatever into this without sidelining everyone else? I'm not much of a writer, but it seems like the pieces to the puzzle were already there, but he just wanted nothing to do with what Adventure did.

Evidently Penders was always planning for the Cat Country thing to happen within the Knuckles series. When the series went belly up, he saw fit to pretty much just force his way on through regardless of what was happening at the time, making alterations to hastily tie-in his pre-existing ideas into the 'new canon' of Sonic Adventure. 

While I can sympathize with suddenly having to abide with something in an area that had previously been entirely his own, that sympathy dampens considerably given that he rather arrogantly seems to presume that Knuckles was 'his' and his alone to work with regardless of what the actual owners of the character wanted. To say nothing of the preposterous means by which he tied the Knuckles Clan into his pre-existing mythology by making them an *offshoot* of Albion. 

[QuantumEdge]

5 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

It honestly could've lead to *gasp* character development. Knuckles learns that the brotherhood are nowhere near as nice or perfect as they pretend to be, and Knuckles questions the roles they want him to fulfil. He doesn't want to become as evil and selfish as the brotherhood, who'll weaponize and allow people to suffer for their own wants and needs in the name of "justice". This causes Knux to forge his own path, potentially creating conflict between him and Locke. 

But nope, they're perfect and everyone loves them and everything they do is perfect.

And now I remember why I absolutely despise the Brotherhood too.

Could never have happened, I'm afraid, Ryan.  Penders was way too attached to his side of the comic being in flawless shape, where any threat wasn't quite as big a deal.  The Brotherhood were meant to be some benevolent, slightly edgy "Ends justify the means" type group, only to kinda backfire thanks to Penders not being able to properly write the behaviour to fit.  The man's tonal and emotional understanding in storytelling is abysmal, quite frankly.  It was never helped by his undying need to introduce some new supporting character every two pages, since he couldn't seem to be happy in working with what he already had.  He was only dragging himself down, which really shows when you compare his Knuckles work to Karl Bollers' Return to Angel Island, where he simply used what was already there and made one of the best stories of one of the worst eras for the book.

[SBR2]

13 hours ago, The Tenth Doctor said:

Hey Ken. May want to think for a second. You get paid pittance at conventions for your drawings at conventions, so small commission jobs. Spaz kept working on the comic and look WHAT HE'S JUST DONE.

The again I guess having passion doesn't matter to a fella who has a kid who plays the game.

To tie this in, I think we all agree he would get more done if he just quit Twitter. His procrastination is pathetic at this point.

 

Wait it just donned on me. Is his claim that because he wasn't a fan but his son was him taking the job is more noble than Spaz or something?

[King Scoopa Koopa]

10 hours ago, QuantumEdge said:

The man's tonal and emotional understanding in storytelling is abysmal, quite frankly.  

I would suggest it goes beyond his comics work.

[horridus]

8 hours ago, SBR2 said:

Wait it just donned on me. Is his claim that because he wasn't a fan but his son was him taking the job is more noble than Spaz or something?

'More noble' is not stated, but is implied. Rather he is stating that HE was the most passionate and dedicated freelancer working for the book because he was doing it on his son's behalf, and stating this despite the fact that he largely sidelined characters from the games AND show in favor of his own material and even copped to never playing the games, wheras Spaz was an actual fan of the series who went the extra mile to ensure that the Sonic Adventure Adaptation would have a bit of accuracy. 

Keep in mind that for the SA Adaptation, Penders focused on that stupid 'Cat Country' story arc that had absolutely nothing to do with the game in even the most vague of ways. Yet according to him, HE was the most passionate and dedicated one working on the book. In short, he's pretty much doing his damndest to declare himself the single most important thing to happen to the Sonic comic book franchise, regardless of what anyone else did or much (or rather, how little) effort he actually put into things.

[Tenko]

Interesting..so apparently us the fans were the reason it evolved into a teen drama series, he was only responding to fan outcry. Is it just me or is he laying blame on the fans for pretty much everything that has been brought up lately. From certain story arcs, the evolution of his writing, all the millions of generic characters...its all us guys. 

He also made a tweet concerning the games and their lack of story again, blaming the general lack of material back in the day for the direction the comics went and why they didn't seem to follow the minor points and flow etc that were present in the games.

It will certainly be interesting to see how IDW does considering Sega's current "follow the game world" type philosophy. Especially considering Penders old views on characters NEEDING backstory, parents and large groups of others to interact with to be popular and worthwhile.  Ignoring the vast Disney cartoon empire whos characters generally had a select few villains and a small group of friends etc but all became very popular, none of which had parents or intricate backstory leading all the way back to birth with while towns/cities where every person had a name and pages dedicated to them...

[Tylinos]

52 minutes ago, Tenko said:

 Ignoring the vast Disney cartoon empire whos characters generally had a select few villains and a small group of friends etc but all became very popular, none of which had parents or intricate backstory leading all the way back to birth with while towns/cities where every person had a name and pages dedicated to them...

Except for Donald Duck.  His family tree is almost as expansive as Penders' family tree for Knuckles.  His family even reigns over a duck-themed city.

Point is, we can just be thankful Donald's father never tried to microwave him as an egg.

[Tenko]

1 hour ago, Tylinos said:

Except for Donald Duck.  His family tree is almost as expansive as Penders' family tree for Knuckles.  His family even reigns over a duck-themed city.

Point is, we can just be thankful Donald's father never tried to microwave him as an egg.

I've personally not delved into his family tree that much beyond the few comics and cartoons I have seen, like the original Ducktales and random TV movies etc, but his nephews always bugged me, who are their parents? To leave them with Donald and Uncle Scrooge like...forever. Have they ever been shown?

To be fair I have always wanted to see Christmas Island in the games, where Sonic is from, would even be curious about how Sonic first ran into Eggman and that adventure as mentioned in the original Sonic manual, but I've never had a want or need to see his parents, while I liked Uncle Chuck and he did play a good role in SatAM he isn't necessary outside that piece of media. The whole extended family cast Penders brought in to the comics was always dead weight and kept Sonic in one place which I thought was a stupid idea considering all the offical manual descriptions of Sonic ever.

Then you add that to Knuckles with his official summary of "last survivor of his ancient race" thing and the extended echidna cast just jumped the shark. Sure play with the idea or tease him with possible clues etc but never let him actually find them. And this is coming from someone who actually liked at least one of them.. Dr Fini was quite interesting, also of note he wasnt a Penders one.

Yet he seems adamant to carry this drama and extended cast nonsense over to his Lara-Su project.

[horridus]

2 hours ago, Tenko said:

Interesting..so apparently us the fans were the reason it evolved into a teen drama series, he was only responding to fan outcry. Is it just me or is he laying blame on the fans for pretty much everything that has been brought up lately. From certain story arcs, the evolution of his writing, all the millions of generic characters...its all us guys. 

He also made a tweet concerning the games and their lack of story again, blaming the general lack of material back in the day for the direction the comics went and why they didn't seem to follow the minor points and flow etc that were present in the games.

Of course it was the fans' fault that he wrote stupid, stupid crap. It was fan demand that led to Knuckles destiny as savior of Mobius overtaking everything else. It was fan demand that led to Sally to strip down and dump herself in a pool of memories that only served to validate her father being an asshole. It was FAN DEMAND that led to Sally becoming a doormat to her father! It was FAN DEMAND that resulted in Evil Sonic impersonating Sonic and making out with everyone! Fan Demand that the Image Crossover served as a commercial for Ken's Lost Ones series! Fan Demand is responsible for 'Chaos Knuckles'! 

Yeah, it's not really surprising by this point. Penders has displayed far, far more passion for excusing himself and shifting blame for his own poor decisionmaking than he does for his actual writing or art. Had he put half as much effort into either that he does into coming into his excuses, he'd prolly have TWO books out by now that, if not good, ar at least average. By this point this guy will say and do ANYTHING to avoid responsibility or blame- I mean hell, recently he even said that the cancellation happened because SEGA and Archie were being 'spiteful' to the fans. 

Yes, really.

 

Yep. Nothing he did in any way could have led to this, nor Fulop, nor Archie's incompetence finally causing SEGA's patience to run out. It's PURELY spite. It's literally the logic of a twelve year old. He's just gonna keep grasping at whatever straw he can to evade responsibility, no matter how desperate or pathetic or blatantly untrue his arguments are.

Quote

 

It will certainly be interesting to see how IDW does considering Sega's current "follow the game world" type philosophy. Especially considering Penders old views on characters NEEDING backstory, parents and large groups of others to interact with to be popular and worthwhile.  Ignoring the vast Disney cartoon empire whos characters generally had a select few villains and a small group of friends etc but all became very popular, none of which had parents or intricate backstory leading all the way back to birth with while towns/cities where every person had a name and pages dedicated to them...

 

You know, I WOULD cut him a bit of slack on this- there really wasn't all that much available at the time, and SEGA really wasn't much of a help in establishing what they wanted. And hey, one of the things I enjoyed about the old spinoffs is seeing how creative people could get with so little available. Trouble is, Penders  at some point stopped thinking in terms of 'this is a Sonic/Knuckles story I am working on', and began to approach it as 'this is MY story with a Sonic/Knuckles coat of paint', and from there, things took a very bad turn. The fact that his efforts were lackluster at best when it came to pre-existing materials doesn't help, nor does it help that he chose to ignore game developments even as the games became more story driven.  Nobody pointed a gun at his head and ordered him to hijack the book towards his own ends- that was aaalll him, and nothing will change that. 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Saying there wasn't much there at the time is fair enough.

Whst isn't is the fact they opted to ignore or downplay literally everything that WAS there. The 25th issue, as much as I like it in spite of this, is a perfect example.

They couldn't even get the Chaos Emeralds, the pivotal and primary plot devices since Day 1, correct -- or the Super forms.

[rosedust]

Is he really putting sex scenes in his comics? Who the hell wants to see that? (if you do don't answer that question) Seriously, that's downright disgusting.

[BlueSky]

On 02/08/2017 at 3:11 AM, Tenko said:

I've personally not delved into his family tree that much beyond the few comics and cartoons I have seen, like the original Ducktales and random TV movies etc, but his nephews always bugged me, who are their parents? To leave them with Donald and Uncle Scrooge like...forever. Have they ever been shown?

If you're interested about this, here're few links; (let me be a duck geek again )

Wikipedia has some stuff, I skimmed trough but I'm not too certain if all's right, considering how much text there is. Best way would probably be go and find those books that have Scrooge's life story in comics (made by Don Rosa) since there's some tidbits, usually the hardcover books have some stuff in them about the background of the stories or something like that. At least in here the versions do have those.

Then here's one example of Donald's family tree (my personal favourite); made by Don Rosa  (it's going pretty much based on groundwork from family trees made before this one actually so I'd say it's pretty "accurate", at least from the "Barksian view") who has actually made many stories involving the family tree and different relations. (sorry, it seems there's no English version. The point is, we have at least one version of what nephews' mom looks like, but as you can see, there's that bird blocking their dad's face...)

___

About Penders though, maybe fans have asked about stuff, but the asks have been misunderstood and what we got was the result. One can't really tell what the other exactly means if that other isn't making a large essay/detailed script when it comes to the stuff like this.

And then there's the fact Penders seems to be the kind of person who "knows what he's doing", aka does just like he sees best, while avoiding to take notice from other's opinions.

Which can be a good thing and a bad thing.

[Chris Knopps]

Wow...

I just popped in to say, wow. A thread about Penders and his work is nearing 300 pages worth of discussion.

A shame his project hasn't even released yet. Imagine the page numbers if folks had finished work on shelves to go off of.

The new adventures of Not Knuckles and his family, coming soon to nobody near you.

[BlueSky]

He's such a hot potato everyone in this topic here needs to talk about him. The thing is, even when the final product hasn't been released to the public eye at the moment, he's been nice enough to share some tidbits of pages.

I'm still thinking this isn't going to be "bedtime reading" type of comics.