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The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096


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On 12.2.2018 at 5:59 AM, Ernest-Panda said:

But anyway, I have one. And it's one I've only ever seen people complain about before:

The story where Bunnie has her cybernetics upgraded. The story is about Bunnie have to her robotisized parts replaced because her immune system is rejecting them, completely eliminating any chance of her ever becoming fully flesh and blood again in the process. The story ends with the transplant being a success, and Bunnie admires her sleek, curvy new limbs before flying off happily.

When I saw people complaining about this, the part they took issue with was how Bunnie was supposedly giving off the message that "I'm never going to be a normal, fully-organic being again, but that's okay 'cos at least I have a sexy new bod", as if all that mattered now was that she was "sexy".

But I didn't see the moment like that at all. In my mind, I likened the situation to a war amputee making the best of their prosthetic limbs, with the message being "you can still be beautiful even if your body is unusual".

So yeah, people may have hated it, but I honestly thought it was one of Ken's rare moments of good writing. But that's just my opinion.

Well, the only thing that could arguably be used as an example of reasoning that Bunnie was treated sexually is that "sax-cymbal" joke in one of the earlier issues, I can't figure any other time oyt when they went and shot their own leg as effortlessly for a joke. That kind of stuff could leave unconcious mental pictures lingering around one's head or something.

But yeah, the story you mentioned was nice and I didn't see it in that light.

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9 hours ago, FFWF said:

Bizarre attitude towards Rough.  I don't know much about Archie, but even I know enough for it to be quite obvious that Geoffrey St. John and Rough have completely different roles and personalities.  And yet it being the same species is all some people need to call it a rip-off, even though skunks have been used as unsavoury animal characters for - well, apparently Pepé Le Pew came along in 1945, so...  This is a deeply silly charge.  Happily, Penders and his opinions are so irrelevant at this point that we can quickly move on to the fact that he's probably not wrong about the movie.  Wouldn't be at all surprised to see the voice actors from the games bumped, and the release date is clearly aspirational at this point.

It gets even more hilarious when you recall that in SatAM there were at least two background FFs who were skunks, and in all likelihood Geoff was designed by Art Mawhinney, a storyboard artist for the show. Not that pointing this out to him would make much of a difference, given how he long ago established that he is exempt from whatever standards he expects others to follow. 

5 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

2. I don't see how anyone can chastise Penders for not thinking of a specific breed for Hershey when I doubt any of the official Sonic cast were based on specific species or breeds deliberately. While some people and places can try to claim that x, y and z traits mean that they're supposed to be A, it's more likely that it's a result of choices in stylisation and/or taking the most familiar features of the animal in general. Even discreperancies like Big and Blaze being vastly different can be explained by Blaze being influenced by one set of cat stereotypes and Big another (with a dash of Totoro influence for good measure). 

I don't think anybody is chastising him for not specifying her breed, so much as his PRECISE rationale- namely that Sonic and co are all aliens and he just used 'cat' as a convenience for the sake of the reader. Even in the continuities that explicitly paint Mobius/Sonicworld as a separate planet distinct from Earth (Sonic the Comic and Sonic X) never framed it in such a manner. It just comes off as something he came up with in order to justify himself working on an action oriented funny animal book meant to promote a video game franchise, given the times he's made it clear he'd have rather been working on something more like Superman or Star Trek as a writer- things that are more 'real' to him than something like Sonic. 

36 minutes ago, BlueSky said:

Well, the only thing that could arguably be used as an example of reasoning that Bunnie was treated sexually is that "sax-cymbal" joke in one of the earlier issues, I can't figure any other time oyt when they went and shot their own leg as effortlessly for a joke. That kind of stuff could leave unconcious mental pictures lingering around one's head or something.

But yeah, the story you mentioned was nice and I didn't see it in that light.

The problem people had with it stems from the fact that after all the emotional build-up, the follow through felt underwhelming and diminishing given that not only was Bunnie suddenly A-Okay, but even commenting on how happy she was to have a nicer looking body now. For many, it felt as though the ending was trivializing what had previously been a pretty dire scenario for Bunnie. 

That's just taking it at face value though- the problem these days stems not from the content, but Penders himself and his underlying rationale. Penders loves to present himself as some kind of grand progressive about anything and everything, but many of his statements make his actual dedication to such things questionable- in various statements, he betrays a very ugly mentality hiding beneath the image he tries to project. 

For instance, when interviewed about the Lupe story in Girls Rule, he had this to say-

Quote

 

Frankly, I thought the Lupe story was important simply because it showed that even a female could make the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of those dear to her

 

Emphasis mine. EVEN a female could do this. EVEN a female could make this kind of sacrifice. He may as well have said that Lupe is a credit to her gender. He may very well have thought he was being genuinely complimentary to her, but in the end, its a pretty diminishing statement, and a baffling one for such an ardent and loudly declared feminist to make. 

Then of course, when confronted over the brief relationship that Bunnie had with Evil Sonic, Penders had this to say-

Yeah. Bunnie's the one at fault here, even though she was deceived twice over by both Patch and then Evil Sonic/Scourge. She is the one who transgressed though, and Antoine would totally forgive her for being tricked and driven into Evil Sonic's arms, even though she had no idea it was Evil Sonic and thought the man she loved no longer loved her. 

Y'see what I'm getting at? 

There are other instances too- him touting Julie-Su as a major feminist character when her entire reason for leaving the Legion was ultimately to be with Knuckles thanks to the Soul Touch, and her ultimately future according to him being an utterly domesticated housewife to Knuckles (despite him claiming up and down she would still kick ass), the multiple excuses he gave for trying to kill off Sally including the ever infamous 'she was cramping Sonic's style', to the fact that the sole woman among the Guardians died off under 'mysterious circumstances' while her son, grandson and father all continued to live on... hell, I could probably write a doctoral thesis based upon all the screwy-ass implications to be found in his Knuckles work alone. 

So, in conclusion? The Bunnie story is criticized on its own merits, but in the larger scheme of thing, Penders himself is a good part of what fuels the criticism- because whatever his stated intentions and motives, there's something very grimy in his thought process, and knowing that makes it as such that one can't help but see the worst in what he does. 

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Never mind, I'll remove my off-topic comments and ask that any movie discussion be diverted to the movie thread. Continue.

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1 hour ago, horridus said:

The problem people had with it stems from the fact that after all the emotional build-up, the follow through felt underwhelming and diminishing given that not only was Bunnie suddenly A-Okay, but even commenting on how happy she was to have a nicer looking body now. For many, it felt as though the ending was trivializing what had previously been a pretty dire scenario for Bunnie. 

That's just taking it at face value though- the problem these days stems not from the content, but Penders himself and his underlying rationale. Penders loves to present himself as some kind of grand progressive about anything and everything, but many of his statements make his actual dedication to such things questionable- in various statements, he betrays a very ugly mentality hiding beneath the image he tries to project. 

For instance, when interviewed about the Lupe story in Girls Rule, he had this to say-

Quote

 

Frankly, I thought the Lupe story was important simply because it showed that even a female could make the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of those dear to her

 

Emphasis mine. EVEN a female could do this. EVEN a female could make this kind of sacrifice. He may as well have said that Lupe is a credit to her gender. He may very well have thought he was being genuinely complimentary to her, but in the end, its a pretty diminishing statement, and a baffling one for such an ardent and loudly declared feminist to make. 

Then of course, when confronted over the brief relationship that Bunnie had with Evil Sonic, Penders had this to say-

Yeah. Bunnie's the one at fault here, even though she was deceived twice over by both Patch and then Evil Sonic/Scourge. She is the one who transgressed though, and Antoine would totally forgive her for being tricked and driven into Evil Sonic's arms, even though she had no idea it was Evil Sonic and thought the man she loved no longer loved her. 

Y'see what I'm getting at? 

There are other instances too- him touting Julie-Su as a major feminist character when her entire reason for leaving the Legion was ultimately to be with Knuckles thanks to the Soul Touch, and her ultimately future according to him being an utterly domesticated housewife to Knuckles (despite him claiming up and down she would still kick ass), the multiple excuses he gave for trying to kill off Sally including the ever infamous 'she was cramping Sonic's style', to the fact that the sole woman among the Guardians died off under 'mysterious circumstances' while her son, grandson and father all continued to live on... hell, I could probably write a doctoral thesis based upon all the screwy-ass implications to be found in his Knuckles work alone. 

So, in conclusion? The Bunnie story is criticized on its own merits, but in the larger scheme of thing, Penders himself is a good part of what fuels the criticism- because whatever his stated intentions and motives, there's something very grimy in his thought process, and knowing that makes it as such that one can't help but see the worst in what he does. 

Okay, if I got the gist, this is in some cases more about him having pretty unappealling and even questionable thoughts about the female characters in book.

I tend to think different people have different point of views from each other based on their environment and relationships and education and stuff, but this is pretty funny. At least in some cases I suppose some of these things could've been avoided by simply looking the thing outside writer's personal box. I dunno, sometimes he makes me feel a bit confused, especially when it comes to stuff like this, it's like he's saying one thing and pretty much doing the other.

The Lupe thing seems to me as if he was very enthusiastic about the fact he made a female character look cool. Some consideration before saying that out loud for finding out another way to tell how awesome he thought it was in a lot less provocative way and I think it'd be better already. It's just funny to say even female, is he referring to something stereotypical female model in media or is it something else? I dunno, it comes out sexist in this way it's in the quote, I agree.

...oh gee, that thing.

I dunno if it would even be something like that, if Antoine and Bunnie were supposedly not a thing at that moment due to the switcharoo. Like, if you're done with someone, isn't it in principle possible to start with someone else? It would've been pretty petty for Antoine to start a fit of temper in that situation about that kind of stuff, at least on an-all-ages book relationships level, if you know what I mean, like, telling if one's got funny things from someone else because if they don't the next victim might be a bit angry.

I dunno, maybe he was writing too much inside his own head or something (again), arguably I could see him telling it more to akin if Bunnie would commit such a stuff, but the way he writes it in the tweet just is too easy to understand as if the thing she had was doing that transgression already. I dunno, I live too much inside my head (as in stuff is so clear in my mind I speak only half of it out so it's pretty hard to get the real point out of it. If I'm in deep thoughts I tend to do it especially then) so I prolly see others doing it even when they don't and are just having pretty interesting brainwaves anyway.

Yeah, that Julie-Su housewife thing was pretty odd as far as I can tell, I cannot figure out anything else out of it than my tries to see if it could possibly be about him being really unclear about the stuff he speaks were pretty much all in vain. That thing was maybe one of the oddest choices storywise he made considering this theme we're discussing about, it's like "hey girls, after you come to the age of x you lose the possibility of being an action heroine for good and you become a normal housewife whatever you were before". Kinda funny message. I dunno, maybe he wanted to make his future stuff look like everything was so peaceful they didn't need to do the hero stuff anymore, but then I look at the males and there goes that theory, it's like the action-loss affects women the worst, guys seem to lose less since instead of being "desperate housewifes" they can go and do police stuff or something, exept Sonic who was prolly bored to death for not getting excitement to his life before the plot started to kick in or something.

But yeah, I can see the thing as a whole, though if one wants to see it one needs to consider a lot more stuff than just one story. I just hope I got it right. I tried to consider it from the stupid point too so that might look like it but that's just my perversion; I tend to look stuff like this from many sides on daily basis, however stupid and/or naive those sides are. Prolly the reason why my brains make me hungry even when I'm just sitting for hours, they're always working... like always.

I do agree with you, he's giving out a pretty different picture than what he's painting of himself when it comes to the female characters. And it isn't too pretty of a picture I'd say. At least I think that was the point. :blushing:

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18 hours ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

 

And it would be. So much so that I can imagine him doing that very sort of thing. *cough-SallyMoon-cough*

Pretty sure that was Dan Slott.

9 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

I'm actually going to rewind the conversation back a bit so I can give some cents on some topics of discussion I didn't see.

1. For "Good stuff Penders did", I still stand by "The Library" from StH#65 being a small but nice gem of a story, and the best Dulcy story the Archie comic ever got. 

The story is really simple; Amy is frustrated because she wants to rescue some books but everyone else is too focused on restoring other parts of Mobotropolis, Dulcy agrees to go with her, they explore the library and find a couple of books from the author before being disturbed and scared out by an intruder (it's actually a character called Jeremiah, but nobody remembers him and it's not needed to follow the story). What makes it work is how Amy and Dulcy's characters complement each other and tap into aspects that were still fairly unused compared to their main traits (Amy still being in the phase of not being taken seriously due to her age and her having annoyance over it, Dulcy being empathetic towards kids due to being younger herself), and doing that while giving them good and believable character interaction. 

Seriously, the only other times "Dulcy connects with kids" ever come up again are "The Price of Flame" (which was more because she rescued a child so they thought she couldn't be there for bad as opposed to her connecting with them) and "Wings of Fire" (which was more because Dulcy was being shoved into a Chaotix dynamic post-reboot, especially since we don't know how old she was post-reboot). 

2. I don't see how anyone can chastise Penders for not thinking of a specific breed for Hershey when I doubt any of the official Sonic cast were based on specific species or breeds deliberately. While some people and places can try to claim that x, y and z traits mean that they're supposed to be A, it's more likely that it's a result of choices in stylisation and/or taking the most familiar features of the animal in general. Even discreperancies like Big and Blaze being vastly different can be explained by Blaze being influenced by one set of cat stereotypes and Big another (with a dash of Totoro influence for good measure). 

Are you responding to someone here? Cause #1 seems to be of two different mindsets.

3 hours ago, horridus said:

Then of course, when confronted over the brief relationship that Bunnie had with Evil Sonic, Penders had this to say-

Yeah. Bunnie's the one at fault here, even though she was deceived twice over by both Patch and then Evil Sonic/Scourge. She is the one who transgressed though, and Antoine would totally forgive her for being tricked and driven into Evil Sonic's arms, even though she had no idea it was Evil Sonic and thought the man she loved no longer loved her. 

Y'see what I'm getting at? 

There are other instances too- him touting Julie-Su as a major feminist character when her entire reason for leaving the Legion was ultimately to be with Knuckles thanks to the Soul Touch, and her ultimately future according to him being an utterly domesticated housewife to Knuckles (despite him claiming up and down she would still kick ass), the multiple excuses he gave for trying to kill off Sally including the ever infamous 'she was cramping Sonic's style', to the fact that the sole woman among the Guardians died off under 'mysterious circumstances' while her son, grandson and father all continued to live on... hell, I could probably write a doctoral thesis based upon all the screwy-ass implications to be found in his Knuckles work alone. 

So, in conclusion? The Bunnie story is criticized on its own merits, but in the larger scheme of thing, Penders himself is a good part of what fuels the criticism- because whatever his stated intentions and motives, there's something very grimy in his thought process, and knowing that makes it as such that one can't help but see the worst in what he does. 

Ooooh...! That's really uncomfortable to think about.

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1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Pretty sure that was Dan Slott.

Was it? The story I heard was that Penders wanted to do something with Sailor Moon and whoever holds the rights said no, so that's why the story was made.

Fandom urban myth? If so, doesn't speak well to Penders' character that it's so easy to believe he'd do that kind of thing.

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30 minutes ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

Was it? The story I heard was that Penders wanted to do something with Sailor Moon and whoever holds the rights said no, so that's why the story was made.

Fandom urban myth? If so, doesn't speak well to Penders' character that it's so easy to believe he'd do that kind of thing.

Sally moon was definitely Dan Slott. Anything involving the Zone Cops prior to Flynn is likely to be his work given that he introduced them and all. 

And given that the man really DID use a crossover event as a personal commercial for his own Lost Ones series, it doesn't really sound out there for him at all.

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Here's a curious question for y'all:

There's Pender's echidna lore, and then there's the Nocturnus Clan.

Which do you prefer, and what makes it better?

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1 minute ago, Polkadi said:

Here's a curious question for y'all:

There's Pender's echidna lore, and then there's the Nocturnus Clan.

Which do you prefer, and what makes it better?

I prefer the Nocturnus Clan definitely. Mainly because it's far far less complicated and more interesting. There's no awkward lore like a soultouch, or brotherhood of bullshit. There's a simple race of echidnas more technologically advanced than their rivals and they went on to do eviler deeds in the name of "good". 

Honestly, I think if I were to rewrite Julie-Su's origins, I'd try to tie her into that lore. Nocturnus are the rivals of the Knuckles clan, so it'd be an interesting idea that there's two survivors while the clan remains inside of the Twilight Cage. Knuckles - Who'd be trying to protect the Master Emerald, and Julie, who'd be attempted to convince Knuckles to join her cause and steal the emerald to break open the Twilight Cage and reunite her clan, something akin to Ratchet and Clank's Prog duo, who wanted to break the Nexus creatures out of their home dimension so they'd be with their family.

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This makes me wonder if Shade could used again if SEGA allowed it. I know that Penders lost the case against her being similar to Julie-Su

 

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Just now, RedFox99 said:

This makes me wonder if Shade could used again if SEGA allowed it. I know that Penders lost the case against her being similar to Julie-Su

 

IIRC, Shade and Ix were always usable. Archie just forbid their usage because they didn't want to deal with Ken again. 

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29 minutes ago, Polkadi said:

Here's a curious question for y'all:

There's Pender's echidna lore, and then there's the Nocturnus Clan.

Which do you prefer, and what makes it better?

I didn't really get far into a Sonic Chronicles Playthrough when I tried to watch it, so I don't know much about the Nocturnus outside of synopses and the Encyclopedia.

 

With what I do know, however, I think I prefer the Dark Legion.

17 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

This makes me wonder if Shade could used again if SEGA allowed it. I know that Penders lost the case against her being similar to Julie-Su

 

Wait, WHAT?! 

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Yea, I seem to recall Ian saying Sega had no issues with the Nocturnus being used, that Shade and Ix etc were fair game as far as Sega goes, but it was Archie who turned down any pitches he made due to not wanting to stir the hornets nest with Penders. Someone is bound to have a screen grab of it all somewhere. I do recall the topic coming up a few times about what could be done with the Nocturnus post Chronicles. Would love to see Chronicles touched on at some point, the cliffhanger ending was so damn good and it went no where!!

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35 minutes ago, Polkadi said:

Here's a curious question for y'all:

There's Pender's echidna lore, and then there's the Nocturnus Clan.

Which do you prefer, and what makes it better?

I'm kind of a mixed example. The Penders lore is what I am used to and despite everything, I am still more attached. 

However, the Nocturnus lore is the more well written and thought out of the two- in particular the use of 'Nocturnus' renders them sinister sounding without making them sound like a demon worshipping cult. Seriously, you can't GET more 'Obviously Evil' than 'Dark Legion'. And at the very least, the Nocturnus backstory accounts for how they are able to make all their stuff. It was never really established where the Legion gets their gear, given how they were exiled. 

21 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

This makes me wonder if Shade could used again if SEGA allowed it. I know that Penders lost the case against her being similar to Julie-Su

 

Archie could always if they wanted to, they just didn't want to deal with Penders. Frankly though I'm not sure if SEGA would allow it even without the Penders Predicament- they are emphatically NOT interested in re-visiting anything pertaining to other Echidna or what became of them. 

4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Wait, WHAT?! 

Penders case against SEGA and Bioware was dismissed, so legally, they COULD use the Nocturnus if they WANTED to. Which in all honesty, they probably would not, Penders connection or no Penders connection. 

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I found it, somehow, the pre IDW stuff is getting harder to find again when anything to do with Ian or Sonic comics brings up pages and pages of IDW articles and news posts now!!


Let's say down the line SEGA allows you to use those characters and that story. Would you personally not want to touch it, or would you want to use the stuff in it?


Oh, I'd be all over it. And as far as I've heard, SEGA would be cool with it. The concern is Mr. Penders would sue if we did

Source is :

http://www.bumbleking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7635&sid=500a793e857473fca7e083f5e809ea8c&start=60

 

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Huh. Well I'll be. I was always fairly certain that they'd not want to explore the Nocturnus on general principle, Penders or no Penders. I'm not holding my breath for them showing up in IDW, but still, this is good to know. 

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You know, between his jab at Rough and his (completely hypocritical) jab at Sonic the Movie, he's either just that much of a tool, or trying to start a flame war amongst a fanbase that blacklisted him years ago. Either way, he's going to get nowhere with the Sonic fanbase, only the idiots that are debased enough to actually believe the crap he spews out.

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Or both.

I like to think his number of supporters is shrinking. I mean, it logically has to be; he's doing nothing at all to maintain interest or attract new readers to his work, because there's not only nothing new being released, but access to his old stuff is now extremely limited -- by his own hand, no less.

Meanwhile, the supporters he has are going to dwindle in number. They'll likely forget about whatever they were looking forward to, develop new interests, things will happen in their life to distract them (job, marriage, kids, etc.), and so on. And getting someone whose interest has lapsed can be even harder than maintaining it to begin with.

At this rate, his only real hope is to pull in new fans. And hey, he might, despite how bad it looks. I mean, Twilight was popular, so you can't really rule anything out.

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9 hours ago, Polkadi said:

Here's a curious question for y'all:

There's Pender's echidna lore, and then there's the Nocturnus Clan.

Which do you prefer, and what makes it better?

I don't prefer either, they're both as bad as each other. The Dark Legion ended up convoluted as hell and consumed the comic, but the Nocturnus Clan were poorly thought out in terms of what Sonic was in 2008.

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14 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

I don't prefer either, they're both as bad as each other. The Dark Legion ended up convoluted as hell and consumed the comic, but the Nocturnus Clan were poorly thought out in terms of what Sonic was in 2008.

Mind explaining that a little more?

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20 hours ago, horridus said:

Then of course, when confronted over the brief relationship that Bunnie had with Evil Sonic, Penders had this to say-

Yeah. Bunnie's the one at fault here, even though she was deceived twice over by both Patch and then Evil Sonic/Scourge. She is the one who transgressed though, and Antoine would totally forgive her for being tricked and driven into Evil Sonic's arms, even though she had no idea it was Evil Sonic and thought the man she loved no longer loved her. 

Y'see what I'm getting at? 

There are other instances too- him touting Julie-Su as a major feminist character when her entire reason for leaving the Legion was ultimately to be with Knuckles thanks to the Soul Touch, and her ultimately future according to him being an utterly domesticated housewife to Knuckles (despite him claiming up and down she would still kick ass), the multiple excuses he gave for trying to kill off Sally including the ever infamous 'she was cramping Sonic's style', to the fact that the sole woman among the Guardians died off under 'mysterious circumstances' while her son, grandson and father all continued to live on... hell, I could probably write a doctoral thesis based upon all the screwy-ass implications to be found in his Knuckles work alone. 

So, in conclusion? The Bunnie story is criticized on its own merits, but in the larger scheme of thing, Penders himself is a good part of what fuels the criticism- because whatever his stated intentions and motives, there's something very grimy in his thought process, and knowing that makes it as such that one can't help but see the worst in what he does. 

Oh, Man in hindsight my question's not great. I sound like I'm thinking Antoine would be jealous despite the fact Bunnie would have had every right to move on in that time. I guess I was more curious about if they talked about these things but I phrased it really grossly now that I look at it again four years later.

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6 hours ago, SBR2 said:

Oh, Man in hindsight my question's not great. I sound like I'm thinking Antoine would be jealous despite the fact Bunnie would have had every right to move on in that time. I guess I was more curious about if they talked about these things but I phrased it really grossly now that I look at it again four years later.

I don't think your question was bad, Ken just warped it.

I would've loved to see Ant's reaction.

"A whole kingdom of eligible bachelors to choose from and you go for HIM??"

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