Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 minute ago, SBR2 said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/KenPenders/status/985637698521083904

Welp. Guess that's confirmed.

Nope - replies shows proof that Lupe was deroboticised by Penders.

[horridus]

4 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/KenPenders/status/985637698521083904

Welp. Guess that's confirmed.

*shakes head* I never thought he'd make my point within moments after bringing it up. Cripes. 

2 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Nope - replies shows proof that Lupe was deroboticised by Penders.

Lupe was deroboticized by the BEM, which was Bollers' work. It does however directly contradict him all the same since that story is one HE wrote after the De-Robo-ing occurred. 

And why am I not surprised that he immediately jumped to Flynn being responsible? 

[Tylinos]

Oh, okay.  So Ken views actually acknowledging Karl's work as a slip-up on his part.  That explains it.

Seriously, wow.

 

Also, arguably a slight bit off-topic, but a separate part of that argument (regarding the background of the Soultouch in the comic) that I couldn't help but be astounded by:

Boy, it sure is good to know Ken thinks that someone's sexual orientation is a choice.  Glad to see he's just as in tune with LGBT folks as he's always claimed.

:|

But a bit more on-topic: That response (and the thread in general) definitely was enlightening on why he created the Soultouch to begin with, but I don't think it reflects as well on it as he seems to think it does.  It's just... Really, Ken?

[horridus]

5 minutes ago, Tylinos said:

Oh, okay.  So Ken views actually acknowledging Karl's work as a slip-up on his part.  That explains it.

Seriously, wow.

 

Also, arguably a slight bit off-topic, but a separate part of that argument (regarding the background of the Soultouch in the comic) that I couldn't help but be astounded by:

Boy, it sure is good to know Ken thinks that someone's sexual orientation is a choice.  Glad to see he's just as in tune with LGBT folks as he's always claimed.

:|

But a bit more on-topic: That response (and the thread in general) definitely was enlightening on why he created the Soultouch to begin with, but I don't think it reflects as well on it as he seems to think it does.  It's just... Really, Ken?

....seriously? He thinks asexuality is a choice??? Oh-ho-ho wow. Just when you thought the implications and rationale behind the soultouch couldn't get any uglier. Dear God he's going to get strung up if he ever releases this book, cause I cannot even begin to IMAGINE how badly he's gonna muff up the LGBT themes he promised. 

[SBR2]

38 minutes ago, horridus said:

 

Lupe was deroboticized by the BEM, which was Bollers' work. It does however directly contradict him all the same since that story is one HE wrote after the De-Robo-ing occurred. 

He's joking. Because Penders mentioned he didn't read Marl's stuff and didn't know Lupe was Deroboticized. 

[The Tenth Doctor]

You know who else thinks sexuality is a choice? Trump. His hated enemy (Chumpster he calls him). Ironic isn't it?

Anyway, his forgetfullness of his own stories, while saying he has done his research is astounding. In my book series, as I am writing it, I am keeping a character profile with notes of everything that happens to the character. This allows me to call back to something later in the series. You'd think a "professional" like Kenneth would do.

[SBR2]

16 minutes ago, Tylinos said:

 

Also, arguably a slight bit off-topic, but a separate part of that argument (regarding the background of the Soultouch in the comic) that I couldn't help but be astounded by:

Boy, it sure is good to know Ken thinks that someone's sexual orientation is a choice.  Glad to see he's just as in tune with LGBT folks as he's always claimed.

:|

But a bit more on-topic: That response (and the thread in general) definitely was enlightening on why he created the Soultouch to begin with, but I don't think it reflects as well on it as he seems to think it does.  It's just... Really, Ken?

As I'm the one he's talking about I'm not Asexual. But yeah it is totally douchey for him to say that.

This is because I said the concept is stupid BTW.

[horridus]

It's a cheap means of pairing people up without bothering to have them develop together in any meaningful way, one he concocted as a means of justifying Julie and Knux getting together. Hell, its the whole reason she LEFT the Legion- her reason for escaping from the insane technology cult wasn't because she disagreed or disliked the way she was treated. It was because an instinct she had no control over compelled her to be with a person she had never met or known before that point. If you are compelled by something against your will into taking an action, how can you ever be your own person? 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

9 minutes ago, horridus said:

It's a cheap means of pairing people up without bothering to have them develop together in any meaningful way, one he concocted as a means of justifying Julie and Knux getting together. Hell, its the whole reason she LEFT the Legion- her reason for escaping from the insane technology cult wasn't because she disagreed or disliked the way she was treated. It was because an instinct she had no control over compelled her to be with a person she had never met or known before that point. If you are compelled by something against your will into taking an action, how can you ever be your own person? 

While the Soul Touch is definitely deus ex machina and a cheap plot device like you said, I honestly think it could be improved or at least mitigated in the creepy undertones if:

1) Instead of marking the other person as your soulmate, it instead simply draws you towards a person who will have a significant effect on your life, but doesn't specify if it's a positive/negative effect. This would still be deus ex machina and a lazy plot device, but at least there would be more room to grow and allow for a variety of conflicts and potential growth.

2) Put more emphasis on how the Soul Touch's negative elements come into play, like with Locke and Lara-le (I think that was Knuckles' mom's name?), like how just because you get pulled together by fate doesn't mean that you'll actually be able to keep together, and that relationships are a lot of work and require true commitment from both sides, something which was somewhat touched upon by Knuckles' parents but tended to be overlooked. The parallel would come in Knuckles and Julie-Su, either resulting in them coming to overcome their difficulties with each other and building a genuine bond despite their beginnings, or coming to realize that they don't have any chemistry and deciding to be strong friends instead, still allowing for the bond but not forcing a relationship for it's own sake.

[horridus]

1 minute ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

While the Soul Touch is definitely deus ex machina and a cheap plot device like you said, I honestly think it could be improved or at least mitigated in the creepy undertones if:

1) Instead of marking the other person as your soulmate, it instead simply draws you towards a person who will have a significant effect on your life, but doesn't specify if it's a positive/negative effect. This would still be deus ex machina and a lazy plot device, but at least there would be more room to grow and allow for a variety of conflicts and potential growth.

2) Put more emphasis on how the Soul Touch's negative elements come into play, like with Locke and Lara-le (I think that was Knuckles' mom's name?), like how just because you get pulled together by fate doesn't mean that you'll actually be able to keep together, and that relationships are a lot of work and require true commitment from both sides, something which was somewhat touched upon by Knuckles' parents but tended to be overlooked. The parallel would come in Knuckles and Julie-Su, either resulting in them coming to overcome their difficulties with each other and building a genuine bond despite their beginnings, or coming to realize that they don't have any chemistry and deciding to be strong friends instead, still allowing for the bond but not forcing a relationship for it's own sake.

There is just one problem with all of this- it implies there is something flawed about the process, and as we both know if there's one thing Penders can't stand, it's his perfect people's perfect Eros-Ex-Machina being demonstrably flawed or negative in any fashion. By daring to imagine how it could go wrong you've already put more thought into it than Penders, and have already strayed too far from his 'vision'. 

 

[Sidronas]

On 4/15/2018 at 7:16 AM, horridus said:

The forum page containing it has been lost- it happened some time after he had left Archie, and had characterized the conflict between himself and Bollers as a 'Donnybrook', and claimed that Bollers' writing was a 'hissyfit' and an attempt to undermine his writing on Mobius 25YL. Prior to that though, there was an incident in 2004 where Ken deleted multiple threads on his forum that brought up the fact that Bollers had declared that 25YL was simply one future of many, which was chronicles on SonicHQ. For some reason the SonicHQ forums of old are now exclused from the wayback machine. 

However, in a rare moment of clarity, I managed to save it, and have a few screencaps for the SonicHQ thread- 

There was only one page of the thread saved, but it was very telling- filled with instances of Ken deleting threads on his forums, essentially for the crime of bringing up that Karl Bollers had a different take on things than him. 

Any claim Penders makes about his feud with Bollers being anything but bitter is a lie, and there's no real way he could misremember who did what given the intensity of the incident. As such, Penders claiming Flynn responsible for actions Bollers took can only be construed as being spite on the part of Penders and him turning Flynn into his personal scapegoat... not that we needed to dredge all THIS up to understand that's the case. 

Really good work on your part Horridus, else it would have been lost to the mists of time like some of the Penders forum etc.

On 4/15/2018 at 12:18 PM, horridus said:

....the heck are you talking about? 

This shot alone clearly lists the minor-ass Echidna and ants that were lost to the Egg Grape Chambers, and Bollers wrote Echidnapolis getting demolished to begin with. As has been pointed out several times now, Flynn intervened to *save* Remington there, the only character in that lot who could be regarded as 'major'. 

Albion and its inhabitants getting torched was Flynn's work, but to be perfectly blunt, given that neither Penders or anyone else did squat with Gala-Na and her council of morons after the Chaos Knuckles arc? You reaaallly can't argue that they were major or important characters.

Penders' problem lies with the fact that his private playground was no longer untouchable, and that no matter how much he wanted to pretend otherwise, the status-quo he concocted wasn't what the readers wanted. That's the core of it all with him- his wounded pride and inability to accept that the book had moved on from him and his go-nowhere plot points. . 

yeah, even i think that it is a bad way of doing a comic, particular if its going to be shared by other people.

11 hours ago, Tylinos said:

And in case anyone still needed more proof that Ken did not care about Karl's work:

As a reminder, Lupe (who was roboticized in SSS11, not killed) had her free will restored under Karl's pen in #100, five whole years before Ken left the book.

But, of course, it can't end there.  Because, as he apparently forgot, Ken himself used Lupe again in #152.

Truly a man with deep respect for the series' continuity.

To me that's a bit of a big oversight on his part, particularly if he only paid attention to his own work...

[DabigRG]

16 hours ago, Tylinos said:

And in case anyone still needed more proof that Ken did not care about Karl's work:

As a reminder, Lupe (who was roboticized in SSS11, not killed) had her free will restored under Karl's pen in #100, five whole years before Ken left the book.

But, of course, it can't end there.  Because, as he apparently forgot, Ken himself used Lupe again in #152.

Truly a man with deep respect for the series' continuity.

Huh.  You know, in hindsight, the way that ministory ended makes more sense.

And to be somewhat fair, Lupe and the Wolf Pack were only really in that issue to react to the Nanite City being built. She could(or more accurately, has to) be replaced by another character there depending on if he choses to include that plot point at all.

 

14 hours ago, horridus said:

....seriously? He thinks asexuality is a choice??? Oh-ho-ho wow. Just when you thought the implications and rationale behind the soultouch couldn't get any uglier. Dear God he's going to get strung up if he ever releases this book, cause I cannot even begin to IMAGINE how badly he's gonna muff up the LGBT themes he promised. 

...I don't get it. Mind explaining the matter?

[Big Panda]

13 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

...I don't get it. Mind explaining the matter?

Which part?

[DabigRG]

12 minutes ago, Ernest-Panda said:

Which part?

Eh, probably the first three sentences, since that's where the matter is apparently centered.

[horridus]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Huh.  You know, in hindsight, the way that ministory ended makes more sense.

And to be somewhat fair, Lupe and the Wolf Pack were only really in that issue to react to the Nanite City being built. She could(or more accurately, has to) be replaced by another character there depending on if he choses to include that plot point at all.

That really does nothing to change the fact that he didn't bother pay attention to not only the work of his co-writer, but his own stories as well. For a man who absolutely demands that his vision be heeded and respected its a pretty massive show of hypocrisy, as well as confirming the fact that he's nowhere near as diligent as he likes to claim when it comes to all this. 

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

...I don't get it. Mind explaining the matter?

Think carefully. Depending on who you ask, asexuality is either a sexual orientation or the lack of one entirely. Wherever your opinion lays on the particulars of that, it means a lack of sexual attraction towards others regardless of gender. (For those of you who keep up with this better than I do, yes, I know, there's a huge spectrum of all this, but this ain't about the full history of the subject). In short, much like homosexuality or bisexuality, its something you are born with. You cannot 'choose' to be an asexual. You can CHOOSE to abstain from sex or be celibate, but you cannot choose to be asexual. 

Declaring that asexuality is a choice is a deeply troublesome statement on par with suggesting that being gay or bi is a choice- it's deeply ignorant and bigoted. And its not as though Penders here is simply confusing celibacy and asexuality- deeper in that chain of replies it is made crystal clear to the man that asexuality is definitely not a choice and why saying so is offensive, but rather than acknowledge and apologize all he's done is double down, boasting about how inclusive and accepting he is and demanding to know why does it matter if he thinks asexuality is a choice if he accepts it anyway. It's the same kind of defense people used in the early 2000s to defend similar nonsense regarding views of homosexuality and bisexuality being choices when called out on their nonsense. He even goes on later to claim Asexuality is the result of a chemical imbalance, which likewise is another thing often claimed about non-heterosexual preferences in order to invalidate it. 

In short? Its a deeply dehumanizing stance to take given that it declares a fundamental aspect of a person's being as being invalid or akin to a mental defect or disease. Its basically saying 'this aspect of your life is not real and you are only pretending'. For any person to take this stance is troubling. For anyone to take it after having it explained to them is worse. And it is ESPECIALLY repugnant coming from a man who makes as much of a show of being a liberal progressive as Ken does, one who loudly declares his inclusivity and acceptance while doubling down and continuing to call an entire category of people invalid simply because he can't actually wrap his head around asexuality, and when given the chance to learn instead chooses to dig in and continue to declare himself in the right. 

Its not exactly surprising, mind you. Penders' dedication to liberalism has always been more of a dog and pony show than anything, something for him to boast about while putting as little real effort as possible into things. His work and his statements betray a mindset far less liberal than Penders would have the world believe, or himself for that matter. So not, its not surprising... but its disappointing and wretched all the same, especially in the face of him loudly declaring himself an ally for the marginalized. Given that his understanding of LGBT issues in general is sub-par at best, I sincerely dread to think what he'll get up to if by some miracle he ever actually releases LSC. 

So. Does THAT clear it up for you, then?

[DabigRG]

 

5 minutes ago, horridus said:

Think carefully. Depending on who you ask, asexuality is either a sexual orientation or the lack of one entirely. Wherever your opinion lays on the particulars of that, it means a lack of sexual attraction towards others regardless of gender. (For those of you who keep up with this better than I do, yes, I know, there's a huge spectrum of all this, but this ain't about the full history of the subject). In short, much like homosexuality or bisexuality, its something you are born with. You cannot 'choose' to be an asexual. You can CHOOSE to abstain from sex or be celibate, but you cannot choose to be asexual. 

 

Okay, this is where I was getting a little confused. Thanks for clarifying!

 

[Multikaris]

17 hours ago, SBR2 said:

He's joking. Because Penders mentioned he didn't read Marl's stuff and didn't know Lupe was Deroboticized. 

Or now he’s decided due to legal reasons she died instead. Maybe like Carl Condor and Fly Fly Freddy.

 

And speaking of Gala-Na, look her up on Tumblr to find out how she can be used. 

[DabigRG]

36 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

And speaking of Gala-Na, look her up on Tumblr to find out how she can be used. 

Uh, you sure that's a decent recommendation?  

[Multikaris]

54 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Uh, you sure that's a decent recommendation?  

Yes. It’s SFW for the most part. Or even DA could be used to find some perfectly SFW stuff about her.

[RedFox99]

2 hours ago, horridus said:

Its not exactly surprising, mind you. Penders' dedication to liberalism has always been more of a dog and pony show than anything, something for him to boast about while putting as little real effort as possible into things. His work and his statements betray a mindset far less liberal than Penders would have the world believe, or himself for that matter. So not, its not surprising... but its disappointing and wretched all the same, especially in the face of him loudly declaring himself an ally for the marginalized. Given that his understanding of LGBT issues in general is sub-par at best, I sincerely dread to think what he'll get up to if by some miracle he ever actually releases LSC. 

I'm a pretty conservative guy, but I picked up on that Ken is a psuedo-liberal in that he uses his "beliefs" to cover up how crooked he can be a while ago, especially with that foot fetish art he did. If you claim to be very progressive, don't be two-faced about them.

[DabigRG]

24 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

I'm a pretty conservative guy, but I picked up on that Ken is a psuedo-liberal in that he uses his "beliefs" to cover up how crooked he can be a while ago, especially with that foot fetish art he did. If you claim to be very progressive, don't be two-faced about them.

Oh goodness, are you serious?

[RedFox99]

18 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Oh goodness, are you serious?

Yeah, I think commissioned by someone ti make an art piece of Lien-da with big emphasis on her feet.

[horridus]

On 4/14/2018 at 11:51 PM, captobvious42 said:

Ya know, I'm bringing this up weeks late so its probably not as relevant, but there was talk about the UK's Sonic the Comic -- either using characters from it or maybe even reprinting them in the states. I think around that time, Penders was whining about reprints and the like, which I imagine he'll bring up every once and awhile. 

I was just wondering what his reaction would be if they did reprint the UK Sonic instead of US. Especially when they get to Dr. Zachary.

He'll react as he always does when other areas of Sonic utilizing similar ideas to him comes up- tie himself into a nonsensical pretzel in order to justify how his ideas are uniquely his and how he was the first and blah blah blah. Guy does not like to confront the possibility that he isn't as unique as he thinks he is. Likewise, his whining and demands that the old Archie continuity be reprinted would get louder, while his refusal to accept WHY none if it will likely reprinted will become more and more pronounced. 

2 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Or now he’s decided due to legal reasons she died instead. Maybe like Carl Condor and Fly Fly Freddy.

 

And speaking of Gala-Na, look her up on Tumblr to find out how she can be used. 

I am certain there are more than a few fans who came up with a comprehensive use for her. That is not the issue- the issue is that Penders is essentially demanding that other people put more effort into things then he did, and then crying when his characters and ideas are deemed unimportant enough to be swept aside after he himself did so little. In the five years that passed between the last time Gala-Na and Albion showed up and the time he left Archie, he did NOTHING with them. They essentially fell off the face of the comic. Given that Echidnapolis already filled the slot of 'Hidden High Tech City', there's a pretty strong argument that there wasn't much of a point to Albion to begin with beyond Penders being so in love with Echidnapolis that he had to make another one. 

44 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

I'm a pretty conservative guy, but I picked up on that Ken is a psuedo-liberal in that he uses his "beliefs" to cover up how crooked he can be a while ago, especially with that foot fetish art he did. If you claim to be very progressive, don't be two-faced about them.

Not quite. That picture was something someone won in a raffle, commissioned due to their specifications- and at first, Penders was upfront about that, no harm no foul. He then, in an incredibly baffling and damning move, suddenly declared that it was actually a political allegory for that years presidential election. The fact that he wound up comparing Hillary Clinton to Lien-Da, a murderous power hungry terrorist, was lost on him. It was wholly unneeded and only made him look worse, especially since, again, he had initially copped to what it was and why it was there. 

More pertinent examples of his lackluster liberalism can instead be found in his work- he's a feminist who repeatedly advocated for a prominent heroine to be killed purely on the basis of it motivating her love interest (SAlly in Endgame), and who in the entire bloodline of the uber important heroic family allowed for only one woman member, one who died while her son, grandson and great-grandson would live on (JAnelle-Li and the Brotherhood). He espouses racial inclusivity and champions himself as a proponent of diversity, while writing a character as a caricature of a black man (Vector) in one book, and making a bog standard WASP protagonist the main focus of another book supposedly built on an entirely Asian superhero team (The Lost Ones) in another, all the while cheerfully exploiting a real life tragedy in the name of painfully cliche superpower origins. And for a man who champions the idea of non-traditional marriage, he cannot seem to conceive of a married relationship functioning as anything but the most standardized of standard marriages (Knuckles and Lara-Su's domestic partnership). 

I could really go on, but the point of order is that there is a very tremendous divide in what Penders says he believes and what he actually writes. That stupid-ass tickling pic has nothing to do with any of that, beyond the cheap attempt to make it more 'dignified' that backfired horribly. 

[RedFox99]

2 minutes ago, horridus said:

The fact that he wound up comparing Hillary Clinton to Lien-Da, a murderous power hungry terrorist, was lost on him.

I imagine Clinton's detractors would have a field day with that statement.

 

2 minutes ago, horridus said:

More pertinent examples of his lackluster liberalism can instead be found in his work- he's a feminist who repeatedly advocated for a prominent heroine to be killed purely on the basis of it motivating her love interest (SAlly in Endgame), and who in the entire bloodline of the uber important heroic family allowed for only one woman member, one who died while her son, grandson and great-grandson would live on (JAnelle-Li and the Brotherhood).

Or how Julie Su did not do much action during M25YL. 

3 minutes ago, horridus said:

He espouses racial inclusivity and champions himself as a proponent of diversity, while writing a character as a caricature of a black man (Vector) in one book, and making a bog standard WASP protagonist the main focus of another book supposedly built on an entirely Asian superhero team (The Lost Ones) in another, all the while cheerfully exploiting a real life tragedy in the name of painfully cliche superpower origins.

Yeah, the guy may be racist. Also, didn't he make a comment about the main lead in the Ghost in the Shell movie?

 

4 minutes ago, horridus said:

And for a man who champions the idea of non-traditional marriage, he cannot seem to conceive of a married relationship functioning as anything but the most standardized of standard marriages (Knuckles and Lara-Su's domestic partnership). 

Interesting point 

[Tylinos]

18 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

Also, didn't he make a comment about the main lead in the Ghost in the Shell movie?

Yes:

While I get the feeling he was trying to say something about how the story was changed to accommodate her not being portrayed by an Asian actress, he did a terrible job of wording himself there.