Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[SenEDDtor Missile]

ANYWAYS... I want to ask a question to people who've played/seen this scene in Sonic 06: the scene where Princess Elise kissed Sonic back to life and helps him use the Chaos Emeralds to turn him Super. If Elise was exactly the same as she was in the game, save for the fact that everyone in Soleanna (including her) was an animal character like Sonic and his friends, would the scene have been made even the slightest bit better?

Much Shipper Nerd Rage will still commence.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

ANYWAYS... I want to ask a question to people who've played/seen this scene in Sonic 06: the scene where Princess Elise kissed Sonic back to life and helps him use the Chaos Emeralds to turn him Super. If Elise was exactly the same as she was in the game, save for the fact that everyone in Soleanna (including her) was an animal character like Sonic and his friends, would the scene have been made even the slightest bit better?

No it wouldn't. And people know that, but those decrying it would cross the line for the most negative thing in order to demonize it.

 

Not that Sonic 06 wasn't as bad as it was, not that the game and the scene in question isn't seen as a joke for a reason, but 8 years afterwards people continue to call it out just spit at or even crack a whip on Sonic's back.

[Phos]

He wrapped most of his money up in this?  He's either going to end up a pauper or make a living off dodge and burn.  I'm not the type to celebrate either.  

[Aquaslash]

The rage and overreaction over what was quite blatantly a "Sleeping Beauty" inspired moment will forever be one of the biggest moments of "Fandumb" in Sonic history.  In fact, I think it transcends Fandumb and moves on into some crazy thing of its own that I can't even think of.

[Salamander]

I'll link this back to Penders in a minute, but I think the issues with the '06 kiss scene are twofold: One is that Elise and Sonic look completely out of place with each other, and two is that Elise's unlikeability as a character makes any potential romance with Sonic totally unpalatable.  The "Sleeping Beauty" comparison is I think largely accurate, but fails to take into account the fact that nobody likes Elise and nobody wants to see her in a relationship with Sonic - and the kiss is an extension of a suggested (though one-sided) romantic tension between Sonic and Elise and is correctly read in that context.  (The Prince and the sleeping beauty get married afterwards, after all.)  If Elise had been, I don't know, a little girl giving Sonic a chaste kiss of revival, the scene would have been mocked for being over-sentimental, but only that.

 

What does this have to do with Penders and his work on Archie or his own material?  This is a personal opinion, but I don't think I could enjoy a Sonic story about relationship drama.  The minutiae of real human life is not what Sonic is about, and the characters shouldn't be worrying about their love lives rather than mad scientists with robot armies.  I repeat, this is a personal opinion that I do not judge other people for disagreeing with.  But I do seem to recall Archie fans looking back on Penders's run on Sonic with distaste because there was at times too great an emphasis on relationships and relationship drama, so I dare say I'm not alone.

 

Ironically, perhaps, Penders going in the relationship drama direction with his own "original" work isn't something that I'm much bothered with, because it doesn't have a predefined direction.  It's not about anything yet and you can build that aspect into it from the beginning.  A lot of science fiction attributes alternative romantic arrangements to its alien species both as a speculative device and as an allegorical way of commenting on the nature of human relationships.  I can see that, if you're reading TLSC as an extension of Archie and of Sonic, then that could be pretty uncomfortable, though.

[Delta Starfire]

Okay, folks, speaking as somebody who is LGBT (transgender and lesbian, in case you were wondering), I'm going to go out on a limb and say how much it royally sucks that almost no children's media includes LGBT characters. While it isn't always true (in my case it wasn't), a lot of us realise that we're LGBT pretty early on in life and being confronted by nothing but heteronormative, straight, cisgender characters in popular media can really make you feel like an isolated freak, and that can be a harmful thought to grow up with. So I personally think there ought to be more LGBT characters in children's media (and the wider media in general too, because we're still grossly underepresented) if only to A. let kids who are LGBT know that they're not alone and B. let all the other kids know that there's nothing wrong with being LGBT and that they should support and care for their friends and family if any of them are. And if Archie's Sonic wanted to have one or two LGBT characters, that'd be fine by me. Provided they were well written. 

 

And that's the problem. Penders would not have written them well. For a man who has, to his credit, made a lot of female characters, he can't even do something as simple as pass the Bechdel test. So I somehow doubt he'd be able to demonstrate the understanding and sensitivity to write a gay character well (to say nothing of a trans character -- in fact, I shudder at the thought). So, while making Rotor gay is an interesting idea and one I have no problem at all with, I don't think Penders would have been the right person to write Rotor as a gay character. I mean, this man thinks he's a trailblazing progressive in comics writing, but his first foray into writing a feminist message (StH #15) involved Sally and Bunnie walking into a trap disguised as a mini mall -- because, y'know, women can't resist shopping, even in a world run by a global dictator where money no longer has any value and a mini mall ought to look deeply suspicious, particularly to someone as intelligent as Sally. Although, I wonder if Penders would blame co-author, Kanterovich or Archie itself for making him write it that way.

 

One final point.

 

I think my biggest problem for the gay Rotor thing was making Rotor gay for the sake of making Rotor gay. I dunno, Something about that just seems off.

 

As far as I'm concerned, everyone, aside from characters who are in a relationship or have a crush, is A-Sexual.

 

 

The problem is that most people will interpret fictional characters, unless otherwise stated, as being straight and cisgender. Case in point, recall the uproar from people when J.K. Rowling announced that Albus Dumbledore was gay. Everybody had just assumed that he was straight, because his orientation had never been relevant to the story. That's the problem; heterosexual, cisgender, (male, white, western, and Christian, if we really want to get into specifics) is taken as the default by most of society. Stories about that kind of person are taken to be stories for everyone that everyone can relate to, whereas stories about anyone who is gay, bi, trans, (female, non-white, non-western, and non-Christian) are taken to be stories that are A. about that specific minority and B. only of interest to people of that specific minority. It's the reason they made Patch Adams straight in the movie of the same name, when the real world Patch Adams was actually gay. The producers assumed that if they'd been true to the historical person, audiences would think it was a gay movie, about a gay man, being gay, not a medical student with unconventional approaches to being a doctor. They feared that the important message of the movie would be lost. That's understandable, but the result is LGBT erasure, which disenfranchises us and I have a real problem with that. Society needs to get over its stupid hangups and recognise that some people are LGBT and sometimes we have important contributions to make to society. That's the point I'm making; exclusion of LGBT is essentially the same as erasure of LGBT. I know that is not usually the intent, but it is the result. And that's not fucking cool when you're the one being erased. 

[biznizz]

I admit that I have some shades of being a furry in me, so I can't say that the possible idea of a Mobian SEGA Anthro/Human relationship couldn't work.

 

The reason I asked that question is because I wanted to know if the bigger part of the controversy was the "bestiality" aspect or the "romance between Sonic and an annoying character" aspect. Or hell, given that Sonic was technically dead, so add the "necromantic" aspect too. The game presents a Trial of Love, where Sonic has to choose between Amy & Elise. Why? Why is the game trying to elevate Elise up to the same level as Amy, who's been chasing Sonic for years, yet the relationship between this sudden princess out of nowhere and the hero with attitude.

 

I dislike the scene because, not only does it imply that Elise has fallen in love with Sonic over the course of about three days or so, not only do those two have NO chemistry, but because in the end it doesn't matter as time was changed and we saw all this interaction and "falling in love montages" for absolutely nothing.

 

But yeah, one of the major problems I have with romance subjects coming up in this project, not that I'll read it (or at least PAY to read it), is that Ken Penders has no clue how to really write a romance. Sonic & Sally were inherited from better writers (like Ben Hurst) on SatAM and developed by other writers like Gallagher, Sally & Geoffrey (if that was even a thing) was incredibly forced (she barely meets the guy long enough to conduct a mission with him, kisses him, and suddenly he's a rival for Sonic in Sally's heart? WTH?), Hershey & Geoffrey wasn't even developed by Penders (he hinted it in the epilogue of Endgame, but did nothing with it. Them hooking up and getting married was all Karl), Locke & Lara-Le was a trainwreck and her relationship with Wynmacher was as bland as a rock.

 

Arguably, his most believable relationship was between Knuckles & Julie-Su, and even then that wasn't perfect. The Soul Touch is perhaps the laziest thing I've ever heard of when hooking up characters, makes it easy! At the decompressed rate he was writing Knuckles, Julie & Knux didn't spend much time with each other, yet they were constantly (or at least she was) thinking about the other. The First Date is perhapse some of the worst of any "romance" that Penders ever did: with clumsy, overly defensive Knuckles willing to fight a friend who has legitimate suspicions of a woman that he barely spent time with, even if he does later apologize. The actual "date" ends with him kissing the girl... but why? Because Soul Touch; who cares about actually spending time together for some actual amount of time (even off panel) when you can just have it done just like that.

 

If Taelor is, as I supect he'll be, supposed to fall in love with Julie-Su, then it'd be even more blatant "I know how the teen-agers act. I'm hip!" stuff with made up stupid slang and needless angst.

 

And... again, if Lara looks anything like her aunt, then it'd be made all the worse: ugly on the outside as well as inside.

[Delta Starfire]

If Taelor is, as I supect he'll be, supposed to fall in love with Julie-Su, then it'd be even more blatant "I know how the teen-agers act. I'm hip!" stuff with made up stupid slang and needless angst.

 

I agree with your entire post, but I'm focussing on this here because I'd just like to point out how god-awful the way Penders used to write Vector was. Not quite as offensive as Mudflap and Skids, but pretty high on the list. I really hate it when people try to write in a dialect they obviously have little real experience of, because they inevitably wander off into offensive stereotypes.

[Tails spin]

This is boom related but placed it here since penders trolling

this may get lost in all the E3 stuff but ken penders sympathy with all the sonic boom negativity. http://forums.sega.com/showthread.php?512749-Ken-Penders-responds-to-the-Sonic-Boom-hate

[Shaddy Zaphod]

"Sympathy". even people who can't stand Boom know that this asshole is far below the level of any Sonic game, even bad ones.

[biznizz]

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/476149138384760832

 

 

Ken Penders ‏@KenPenders

@Sentaiblade I'm afraid I don't follow you. I always thought Sonic was the star. That's why I originally wanted to ditch Princess Sally.

 

4:49 PM - 9 Jun 2014

 

I am kicking myself for not being able to find the exact quote where Penders admitted that the reason he wanted to kill off Sally because her miniseries didn't sell that well (and that she had detractors and "thus" was unpopular) and that EndGame was supposed to be the finale and her death would motivate Sonic into finally killing off Robotnik.

 

But the closest I could find was this: http://archive.sonichq.net/newsite/news/interviews/kenpenders.php

 

By creating the feeling that growth was possible, that the readers would not be able to predict what happened next, something extraordinary happened. We attracted new readers, and not just a few. Month by month, people started climbing on board because here was a book that took chances, that didn't remain status quo. It was then that I began thinking about ENDGAME, and giving the readers the ultimate showdown between Sonic and Robotnik. I felt that the plot device of killing off Sally would be the only justification for Sonic to fully cut loose and go after Robotnik no matter what. At the time, I felt the character of Sally was only holding Sonic back from achieving his full potential. Despite her popularity with SOME readers, at least half wish we had gotten rid of her once and for all. Because Sega didn't want to rule out the possibility of using Sally in the future, it was decided she should live. As a result, I came up with BRAVE NEW WORLD, which set the stage for all new developments, including the concept that we didn't need to use the same villain issue after issue.

[Delta Starfire]

In fairness, I really don't have any objections to what he's saying in that larger quote. The book was a bit stale with Sonic facing the same enemy issue after issue and changing things up made it more interesting. At least for me. I would tend to agree with the consensus that the end of Endgame was a bit of a copout though. Even though it was another example of "she's dead but not really", I think there was more emotional impact in Sally's death aboard the Death Egg II just before the first genesis wave. And at least the resolution made sense... rather than Hershey dressed as Sonic wearing Snively seeing goggles...

Still, as far as Endgame goes, I get the impression that Sega's decision was pretty last minute, in which case I can actually sympathise with Penders there.

[Wittymations]

You know, maybe it's just me, but rather than going for shock death value, he could have written her in a way where he didn't view her as such a block for Sonic.

 

Then again, he tried to get rid of Robotnik, of all people, a well. So, really, didn't know what the hell he was doing.

[Delta Starfire]

You know, maybe it's just me, but rather than going for shock death value, he could have written her in a way where he didn't view her as such a block for Sonic.

 

Then again, he tried to get rid of Robotnik, of all people, a well. So, really, didn't know what the hell he was doing.

 

Yeah, seriously. Although RoboRobotnik started manipulating events from behind the scenes pretty early on, so was it ever his intention for Robotnik to be permanently removed from the series? If so, he probably doesn't understand the Sonic formula. This is something StC had figured out back then; it doesn't have to be Robotnik every issue, but you can't really do Sonic without Robotnik... at least, not in an official Sega comic. Hell, I just write a fan comic, and I brought Robotnik back in the end (although, I had always intended to... it just took about four years...).

[biznizz]

As much as I despise how much accusations of the term seems to have spread to cover EVERY death in comics it seems, Ken's original plan for Sally was going to be classic fridging.

I forget if this was before or after he screwed Hurst over, but his casual attempted to kill her off because "she kept blocking Sonic's potential" or whatever reeks of disrespect of Hurst and the SatAM team. Why only her out of all the Freedom Fighters? Why couldn't she have, I dunno, have been thrown into the Zone of Silence or captured under threat of execution or hell, even roboticized again?

Even from a storytelling standpoint, Sally's death would have screwed over the whole point of the In Your Face future ending (before it was retconned into Robo-Robotnik 2/Eggman's future... then the real future again for 25YL) where Sally was very much alive.

And even when it was decided the book should live past Endgame, Sally was still gonna be dead for really reals until SEGA asked Gabrie to not kill her off. Hell, for a character that Ken supposedly really liked (keep in mind this was pre-Echidna infestation), he was more than willing to give her an extremely inglorious death and was well prepared to wash his hands of her completely (except for a story where Sally would "come back" but actually be a robot after a slow burn reveal).

[Delta Starfire]

As much as I despise how much accusations of the term seems to have spread to cover EVERY death in comics it seems, Ken's original plan for Sally was going to be classic fridging.

I forget if this was before or after he screwed Hurst over, but his casual attempted to kill her off because "she kept blocking Sonic's potential" or whatever reeks of disrespect of Hurst and the SatAM team. Why only her out of all the Freedom Fighters? Why couldn't she have, I dunno, have been thrown into the Zone of Silence or captured under threat of execution or hell, even roboticized again?

Even from a storytelling standpoint, Sally's death would have screwed over the whole point of the In Your Face future ending (before it was retconned into Robo-Robotnik 2/Eggman's future... then the real future again for 25YL) where Sally was very much alive.

And even when it was decided the book should live past Endgame, Sally was still gonna be dead for really reals until SEGA asked Gabrie to not kill her off. Hell, for a character that Ken supposedly really liked (keep in mind this was pre-Echidna infestation), he was more than willing to give her an extremely inglorious death and was well prepared to wash his hands of her completely (except for a story where Sally would "come back" but actually be a robot after a slow burn reveal).

 

Holy shit, I hadn't even thought of that! But you're absolutely right. Sally's death, for the reasons Penders gave, would have been textbook fridging. Thank Zeus's hairy ass that Sega did intervene.

[Wittymations]

Yeah, seriously. Although RoboRobotnik started manipulating events from behind the scenes pretty early on, so was it ever his intention for Robotnik to be permanently removed from the series? If so, he probably doesn't understand the Sonic formula. This is something StC had figured out back then; it doesn't have to be Robotnik every issue, but you can't really do Sonic without Robotnik... at least, not in an official Sega comic. Hell, I just write a fan comic, and I brought Robotnik back in the end (although, I had always intended to... it just took about four years...).

From what I heard, he didn't plan for RoboRobotnik to do it. I think SEGA said something about bringing back Eggman, because of Adventure 1, and he didn't like the idea because he felt like he took bold moves to get rid of their main villain and some other writer/editor/whatever finally was able to come up with a way that had a Robotnik in there without it being the one he killed.

 

It was really all about ego.

[Delta Starfire]

From what I heard, he didn't plan for RoboRobotnik to do it. I think SEGA said something about bringing back Eggman, because of Adventure 1, and he didn't like the idea because he felt like he took bold moves to get rid of their main villain and some other writer/editor/whatever finally was able to come up with a way that had a Robotnik in there without it being the one he killed.

 

It was really all about ego.

 

Well, StH #50 was published in June, 1997 -- coincidentally very close to when StC #100 was published, which also featured Robotnik's defeat (but not his death -- he never died in StC). I suppose Sonic Adventure must have been in the works at that time, albeit pretty early stages, I'm guessing. But in spite of all that, even if no major game projects were in the works, Robotnik is the yin to Sonic's yang. You kinda need to have him. At least, as long as the games do anyways. 

[blazingsonic]

 

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/476149138384760832

 

 

 

I am kicking myself for not being able to find the exact quote where Penders admitted that the reason he wanted to kill off Sally because her miniseries didn't sell that well (and that she had detractors and "thus" was unpopular) and that EndGame was supposed to be the finale and her death would motivate Sonic into finally killing off Robotnik.

 

But the closest I could find was this: http://archive.sonichq.net/newsite/news/interviews/kenpenders.php

 

 

 

What's funny is, I'm Sentaiblade. XD

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

 

So it's come to this. Summon an ambulance, and a Matrix squadron rescue party. This man has gone mad and needs to be pried from Nightopia at once.

[DarkLight]

If he's assuming Boom is overhauling the game continuity like the comic did to his nonsense, then there's one, little hole in his huge assumption. Sega has actually said that Boom will be an alternate continuity and how it is in no way comparable to what recently happened in the comic.

 

Although, I'm perhaps wrong to speak logic regarding anything with him and should just assume he's still crying for attention at this point.

[Zaysho]

 

So it's come to this. Summon an ambulance, and a Matrix squadron rescue party. This man has gone mad and needs to be pried from Nightopia at once.

Well, I guess since he burned all his bridges after pillaging his creations he decided it's OK to talk shit about his former employers.

Stay fucking classy, Penders. For your sake, I hope LSC does decently, because I seriously doubt anybody will hire you to do more than brush the eraser crumbs off the drawing table after this.

 

If he's assuming Boom is overhauling the game continuity like the comic did to his nonsense, then there's one, little hole in his huge assumption. Sega has actually said that Boom will be an alternate continuity and how it is in no way comparable to what recently happened in the comic.

Although, I'm perhaps wrong to speak logic regarding anything with him and should just assume he's still crying for attention at this point.

He actually believes the comic will go through another reboot if Boom is successful, which I don't see happening. Not since SEGA has had to insist that Boom isn't a reboot, but an alternate continuity, and the comic at this point is meant to represent the main game canon. A third Sonic book specifically for Boom is more likely going to be put on the table before the main Archie book is messed with any further.

[DarkLight]

That might be it. But it's stupid either way, as is what you expect out of the mind of Penders,

[KittyNakajima]

Just one more thing, for the sake of accuracy, could we stop posting that picture of him that looks like Mr Flanders on a bad day? He's updated his look since:

 

 

^DO NOT WANT. This look wrecks of mid-life crisis makeover complete with the sappy pickup lines at a bar. "Hey baby, I draw comics for a living. I can draw you like a sexy fox version of Princess Leia."

 

That said, I too am idly keeping an eye on this. I want to see if it was really worth having a bitch fit over paid fan characters to rip his reputation to shit. I mean, I'd imagine he's blacklisted or at least artist non grata for companies for the sheer fact of the amount of time/money wasted in those court cases; I couldn't possibly see anyone wanting to work with him unless they had an iron clad contract, freelance or otherwise.

 

Add in the fact that his behavior and actions have alienated a good part of the audience he's hoping to market this crap masterpiece to, and you have a lovely recipe for shit on a stick.

[Tenko]

HA! Is he gunna sue Sony and Sega-Sammy with this new movie news? It was after all his idea to make a Sonic movie remember...(if you forget he tried to steal the idea from a fellow writer and sabotaged his efforts to get one off the ground).