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The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

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People have brought up these concerns to Penders on his twitter, and each time he's basically said 'trust me, I got it covered'. Either there's some part of his deal that DOES allow some sort of exemption, or Penders is deeply misunderstanding the situation at hand, or is certain that he's altered things to the point where its legally distinct. 

Either way though, we're not gonna know til Comic-Con of next year. Supposedly. 

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Fan Art is illegal to sell. However most artist get away with selling their fan work (unless it's Disney). Unless it affects their underline, mostly companies don't care because a small artist selling fanart doesn't affect them. Ken Penders however may be a special case. I'm not just talking about using M25YL again. SEGA may not care about that considering all the fan projects I see going around. Just look at Esty. I'm more looking at the stock and traced images he has in his LSC comic (with the pages he's shown so far). Someone could send Penders a cease and desist if he used a copyrighted photograph without a license to use it.

 

Here some videos:

seanwes tv 142: Can I Sell Fan Art?

Ponder Sprocket: Adventures in Critiquing - Rain on Sunny Day

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The impression I get is that a lot of fanart commissions and things like that skate by the rights holders because they're effectively just being approached on an individual basis; it's not the same as another company attempting to muscle in on an IP.  There's no real threat involved, and it'd be too much hassle to go after so many small fry that pose no threat for no reward.  Penders... well, he might fly under the radar on these grounds, but given that he's literally been party to a SEGA lawsuit regarding character rights and does attempt to make arguments about legal IP ownership based on such, it might be a problem.  His potential IP violations seem more egregious than those of the average fanartist, not least because of the claims he makes about the implications.

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17 hours ago, horridus said:

People have brought up these concerns to Penders on his twitter, and each time he's basically said 'trust me, I got it covered'. Either there's some part of his deal that DOES allow some sort of exemption, or Penders is deeply misunderstanding the situation at hand, or is certain that he's altered things to the point where its legally distinct. 

Either way though, we're not gonna know til Comic-Con of next year. Supposedly. 

"Trust me, I got it covered. Iizuka is my uncle and Iwata stole the idea for turning the Wii remote sideways from me. Also, Mobians totally eat their young and Sally's technically legal so its okay if my sleazy old man skunk character has sex with her. I'm gonna write that in the wiki even though it didn't happen. Believe me... I know what I'm doing."

Oh God, this man... this man... I don't know what he is.

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I think last time printing old Archie came up we concluded that he probably wouldn't have the source pages for printing so it would be interesting to see if he does plan to sell a collection of printed scans.

Of course when it comes to anything connected to TLSC I believe that maintining the illusion of something happening is given more importance than actually doing something.

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3 hours ago, FFWF said:

The impression I get is that a lot of fanart commissions and things like that skate by the rights holders because they're effectively just being approached on an individual basis; it's not the same as another company attempting to muscle in on an IP.  There's no real threat involved, and it'd be too much hassle to go after so many small fry that pose no threat for no reward.  Penders... well, he might fly under the radar on these grounds, but given that he's literally been party to a SEGA lawsuit regarding character rights and does attempt to make arguments about legal IP ownership based on such, it might be a problem.  His potential IP violations seem more egregious than those of the average fanartist, not least because of the claims he makes about the implications.

Really this is the problem. There's a difference between a maybe 10 or 20 dollar commission and selling several copies of work you did for the parent company as your own. 

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16 hours ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

Not exactly news, but an Archie Sonic liveblogger I follow on tumblr wrote a pretty great piece on the grander issues with Penders's writing and characterization, his relation to other parts of the comic and the series as a whole. I knew I never liked a lot of his comics as a kid, but I never quite knew why or what was making me read something else instead of continuing with Sonic's comics.

I just finished reading that whole thing. A good read and it definitely explains a lot. A whole lot. Penders just dug himself in a hole and honestly he's a pretty bad fanfic writer. When Flynn took over that's when the comics started getting good but by then Penders couldn't stand anybody taking over property that he felt was his. After that lawsuit and the genesis wave, well he was so vain and so unable to see his own bad writing that he couldn't stand anyone doing it better. That's what it boils down to, his own jealousy taking away good written characters. One of my favorites, that I know is a hot take, was the rewritten Anti-Sonic as Scourge. Scourge became a decent villian when someone else was writing him and if Archie would've kept a better handle on their contracts then Penders might not be writing and inking that bad, gross comic which hopefully he's such a 'perfectionist' it'll never see the light of day. 

One can only hope at this point. 

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So...anyone heard about the scrapped stories Penders planned? From issues 155 to 175 and the events that lead to issue 200.

Here's the thing in the spoiler tag in case something happens to the link.

Spoiler

Only a select few have seen what I'm about to reveal here -- namely, the synopsis of the stories I planned leading to SONIC #175 and eventually SONIC #200. The following list was submitted to Mike Pellerito at his request while I was writing the Shadow storyline that saw print in issues #157 through #159.

Without further ado, I present to you what might have been...

SONIC: LINE OF SUCCESSION PTS I & II (SONIC #155 & #156)

SONIC: SYSTEM SHUTDOWN/RECONFIGURATION/REBOOT (SONIC #157, #158 & #159)

SONIC: ALL MY TOMORROWS... (SONIC #160 & #161) - King Sonic discovers he’s returned to the scene of one of his greatest battles and possibly the cause of his problems in the future. The problem is that no one can see or hear him, and any attempt to take action results in someone suspecting a supernatural cause. When he returns to the future, he discovers a changed world on top of having failed to change events in the past. As a last resort, Rotor sends Nicole into the past after having created her.

SONIC: LAST TANGO IN KNOTHOLE (SONIC #162) - Uncle Chuck and Rosie emerge on the town for a real date, and it’s up to Sonic to play guardian angel and prevent Robotnik’s stealth-bots from spoiling the happy couple’s evening. (16 pages)

SONIC: GIRLS NIGHT OUT (SONIC #163) - Some teasing from Ash results in Mina and Amy Rose making their way into Robotnik’s stronghold to prove they’re just as capable on their own as any Freedom Fighter (re: Sonic). When Sally hears what they’re up to, she and Sonic head out after them, only to discover Rouge and Nic the Weasel are on the scene, each looking to abscond with the rare gem that will power Robotnik’s latest weapon. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: THIS ROBIAN, THIS HEDGEHOG (SONIC #164) - When Sonic overhears how much his father resents his condition, unable to enjoy a “normal” life with his wife, Sonic risks all to find a cure. With the aid of his Uncle Chuck, Sonic makes his way into the Robotnik’s nano-tech labs and retrieves what he hopes is the answer to the problem. Unfortunately, Jules is still a Robian at the end, but thanks to nano-technology, he now looks more like his old self. (16 pages)

SONIC: LAST MAN STANDING (SONIC #165) - Antoine pops THE question to Bunnie. Unfortunately, she’s not able to respond before the gang has to go off on a mission to shut down Robotnik’s power plant before a meltdown in the core. While Sonic does all he can to ensure a safe ending for all, circumstances dictate a sacrifice on someone’s part, and Snively ends up proving he had more moxie than anyone ever gave him credit for. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: FALL-OUT (SONIC #166) Sonic is racked with grief, feeling responsible for the death of Snively, and drives everyone that much harder when preparing for their next mission. As their assignment unfolds, everyone becomes uneasy as the possibility dawns that Sonic could cross a line he never did before. For the Freedom Fighters, this moral quandary becomes even more difficult when it’s discovered the enemy’s latest plan could result in the extinction of every lifeform on Mobius.

SONIC: NEW WORLD ORDER (SONIC #167) - Sonic finally is informed of the duties of his new rank: Gentleman-At-Arms. His first task: accompany Princess Sally to Station Square as she sets up Knothole’s first embassy in a foreign land. Naturally, there’s some trouble before the group departs, including Sally’s displeasure when Sonic’s new rank means he can overrule her when it comes to security, as Antoine’s duties as head of the Royal Guard conflict with his proposal to Bunnie. (16 pages)

SONIC: OUR HEDGEHOG IN STATION SQUARE (SONIC #168) - Now that Princess Sally, Sonic, Tails and Rotor have arrived in Station Square for the duration, Sonic finds getting around town is more awkward than he likes, thanks to Evil Sonic making the scene. But if Sonic can’t provoke his bad doppelganger into a fight one way, perhaps scoring with Rouge might do the trick. Now if only Sally doesn’t get into the act. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11 or 16-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: A DISH BEST SERVED COLD (SONIC #169 & #170) - Knuckles and the Chaotix show up at Station Square, mean and spoiling for a fight with the group that attempted to invade Angel Island. Unfortunately, with the new alliance pact in place between Knothole and Station Square, that puts Sonic on a collision course with the embattled echidna. (2 16-page stories)

The idea was to tease whether or not Bunnie would accept based on the premise that she wasn't sure her and Antoine could lead a normal life due to her bionic parts. Eventually, events in SONIC #175 would have resulted in her saying yes to their engagement, leading to a spectacular wedding in #200.

Along the way, we would have explored the Sonic-Sally relationship in greater depth as I would be steering to get those two together after several trials and tribulations in which neither was sure what they themselves or the other really wanted.

When I resumed writing SONIC as a main feature with issue #145, I made it clear I was aiming to correct the fiasco Karl foisted upon fandom with the infamous slap. Both Mike and I were determined to correct what mainly perceived at the time as the worst moment in the book's history. However, neither of us saw that getting corrected over the course of an issue or two or three. Rather, it was decided that Sonic would play the field for awhile, allowing him to discover exactly why Sally was always the girl for him.

One of the things that made it difficult during my resumption of being the head writer was that in some ways it was accidental. Initially, I was going to submit whatever stories struck my fancy and spend the rest of my time working on other projects. So I wrote the stories published in SONIC #150 and 151 first, then was asked to begin writing what eventually became "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UNKNOWN" Part 1. Karl and I were supposed to alternate each successive chapter, but that plan went out the window when he and Mike couldn't work things out. Somewhere during the writing of issues #146 through #149, Mike decided he wanted stories to lead into the saga, which then resulted in me writing what eventually became SONIC #145. After finishing "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UNKNOWN", I recall then writing "LINE OF SUCCESSION" Parts 1 & 2, upon which I was then asked to write what eventually saw print in SONIC #152.

What was really funny was reading Dan Drazen's reviews at the time, because he hadn't a clue what turmoil was going on behind the scenes trying to get the book out. As I always had a policy of saying nothing in defense when a paying customer criticized my work, I just shook my head and sighed. No one knew about the rewrites that were demanded, often which made no sense, nor did I get paid for. Nor the changes to story length and format that changed at a moment's notice. What made it even funnier was that while Dan was slamming the book, sales were going up and people paid attention I was in charge of the storylines again, much to the majority of the audience's approval.

The way I saw it, I was going to have fun writing what I did. It showed, and the audience responded. The only part I saw where I would have to tread darkly is the fall of Snively. Mike had wanted me to set him up for the audience to embrace him as they never did before, only to kill him off to rattle everyone, announcing to everyone not to take the book for granted as one would never know what to expect after that.

...is it safe to say that we dodged a bullet with this one

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6 minutes ago, Ellipsis-Ultima said:

So...anyone heard about the scrapped stories Penders planned? From issues 155 to 175 and the events that lead to issue 200.

Here's the thing in the spoiler tag in case something happens to the link.

  Hide contents

Only a select few have seen what I'm about to reveal here -- namely, the synopsis of the stories I planned leading to SONIC #175 and eventually SONIC #200. The following list was submitted to Mike Pellerito at his request while I was writing the Shadow storyline that saw print in issues #157 through #159.

Without further ado, I present to you what might have been...

SONIC: LINE OF SUCCESSION PTS I & II (SONIC #155 & #156)

SONIC: SYSTEM SHUTDOWN/RECONFIGURATION/REBOOT (SONIC #157, #158 & #159)

SONIC: ALL MY TOMORROWS... (SONIC #160 & #161) - King Sonic discovers he’s returned to the scene of one of his greatest battles and possibly the cause of his problems in the future. The problem is that no one can see or hear him, and any attempt to take action results in someone suspecting a supernatural cause. When he returns to the future, he discovers a changed world on top of having failed to change events in the past. As a last resort, Rotor sends Nicole into the past after having created her.

SONIC: LAST TANGO IN KNOTHOLE (SONIC #162) - Uncle Chuck and Rosie emerge on the town for a real date, and it’s up to Sonic to play guardian angel and prevent Robotnik’s stealth-bots from spoiling the happy couple’s evening. (16 pages)

SONIC: GIRLS NIGHT OUT (SONIC #163) - Some teasing from Ash results in Mina and Amy Rose making their way into Robotnik’s stronghold to prove they’re just as capable on their own as any Freedom Fighter (re: Sonic). When Sally hears what they’re up to, she and Sonic head out after them, only to discover Rouge and Nic the Weasel are on the scene, each looking to abscond with the rare gem that will power Robotnik’s latest weapon. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: THIS ROBIAN, THIS HEDGEHOG (SONIC #164) - When Sonic overhears how much his father resents his condition, unable to enjoy a “normal” life with his wife, Sonic risks all to find a cure. With the aid of his Uncle Chuck, Sonic makes his way into the Robotnik’s nano-tech labs and retrieves what he hopes is the answer to the problem. Unfortunately, Jules is still a Robian at the end, but thanks to nano-technology, he now looks more like his old self. (16 pages)

SONIC: LAST MAN STANDING (SONIC #165) - Antoine pops THE question to Bunnie. Unfortunately, she’s not able to respond before the gang has to go off on a mission to shut down Robotnik’s power plant before a meltdown in the core. While Sonic does all he can to ensure a safe ending for all, circumstances dictate a sacrifice on someone’s part, and Snively ends up proving he had more moxie than anyone ever gave him credit for. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: FALL-OUT (SONIC #166) Sonic is racked with grief, feeling responsible for the death of Snively, and drives everyone that much harder when preparing for their next mission. As their assignment unfolds, everyone becomes uneasy as the possibility dawns that Sonic could cross a line he never did before. For the Freedom Fighters, this moral quandary becomes even more difficult when it’s discovered the enemy’s latest plan could result in the extinction of every lifeform on Mobius.

SONIC: NEW WORLD ORDER (SONIC #167) - Sonic finally is informed of the duties of his new rank: Gentleman-At-Arms. His first task: accompany Princess Sally to Station Square as she sets up Knothole’s first embassy in a foreign land. Naturally, there’s some trouble before the group departs, including Sally’s displeasure when Sonic’s new rank means he can overrule her when it comes to security, as Antoine’s duties as head of the Royal Guard conflict with his proposal to Bunnie. (16 pages)

SONIC: OUR HEDGEHOG IN STATION SQUARE (SONIC #168) - Now that Princess Sally, Sonic, Tails and Rotor have arrived in Station Square for the duration, Sonic finds getting around town is more awkward than he likes, thanks to Evil Sonic making the scene. But if Sonic can’t provoke his bad doppelganger into a fight one way, perhaps scoring with Rouge might do the trick. Now if only Sally doesn’t get into the act. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11 or 16-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: A DISH BEST SERVED COLD (SONIC #169 & #170) - Knuckles and the Chaotix show up at Station Square, mean and spoiling for a fight with the group that attempted to invade Angel Island. Unfortunately, with the new alliance pact in place between Knothole and Station Square, that puts Sonic on a collision course with the embattled echidna. (2 16-page stories)

The idea was to tease whether or not Bunnie would accept based on the premise that she wasn't sure her and Antoine could lead a normal life due to her bionic parts. Eventually, events in SONIC #175 would have resulted in her saying yes to their engagement, leading to a spectacular wedding in #200.

Along the way, we would have explored the Sonic-Sally relationship in greater depth as I would be steering to get those two together after several trials and tribulations in which neither was sure what they themselves or the other really wanted.

When I resumed writing SONIC as a main feature with issue #145, I made it clear I was aiming to correct the fiasco Karl foisted upon fandom with the infamous slap. Both Mike and I were determined to correct what mainly perceived at the time as the worst moment in the book's history. However, neither of us saw that getting corrected over the course of an issue or two or three. Rather, it was decided that Sonic would play the field for awhile, allowing him to discover exactly why Sally was always the girl for him.

One of the things that made it difficult during my resumption of being the head writer was that in some ways it was accidental. Initially, I was going to submit whatever stories struck my fancy and spend the rest of my time working on other projects. So I wrote the stories published in SONIC #150 and 151 first, then was asked to begin writing what eventually became "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UNKNOWN" Part 1. Karl and I were supposed to alternate each successive chapter, but that plan went out the window when he and Mike couldn't work things out. Somewhere during the writing of issues #146 through #149, Mike decided he wanted stories to lead into the saga, which then resulted in me writing what eventually became SONIC #145. After finishing "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UNKNOWN", I recall then writing "LINE OF SUCCESSION" Parts 1 & 2, upon which I was then asked to write what eventually saw print in SONIC #152.

What was really funny was reading Dan Drazen's reviews at the time, because he hadn't a clue what turmoil was going on behind the scenes trying to get the book out. As I always had a policy of saying nothing in defense when a paying customer criticized my work, I just shook my head and sighed. No one knew about the rewrites that were demanded, often which made no sense, nor did I get paid for. Nor the changes to story length and format that changed at a moment's notice. What made it even funnier was that while Dan was slamming the book, sales were going up and people paid attention I was in charge of the storylines again, much to the majority of the audience's approval.

The way I saw it, I was going to have fun writing what I did. It showed, and the audience responded. The only part I saw where I would have to tread darkly is the fall of Snively. Mike had wanted me to set him up for the audience to embrace him as they never did before, only to kill him off to rattle everyone, announcing to everyone not to take the book for granted as one would never know what to expect after that.

...is it safe to say that we dodged a bullet with this one

We’ve known about them for a long time, and they sound awful. Seems like the pissing match between him and Bollers would’ve continued too with him using Mina.

Kind of funny how he messes up the characters in these descriptions, I honestly can’t see Ash, as overprotective as he is - teasing Mina into thrusting herself into danger, especially seeing Mina has already done this - her development is her thrusting herself into danger to prove herself as a Freedom Fighter to Sonic, only to have to accept she just truly isn’t good at being a freedom fighter, and can help in other ways. Hell, part of the reason she ends up getting with Ash is because he’s supportive for her using music to inspire people.

Penders just fundamentally misses the point and would’ve ended up reverting the characters even further back, which given he already did it once to awful effect in #150, ew.

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21 minutes ago, Noodle Panda said:

The only story idea there that sounded even remotely interesting was the Jules one.

Everything else is the most boring, most prolonged, most foot-draggy dreck I’ve ever read.

You mean you didn’t want Sonic VS Penders God!Knuckles for the umpteenth time?

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3 hours ago, Ellipsis-Ultima said:

So...anyone heard about the scrapped stories Penders planned? From issues 155 to 175 and the events that lead to issue 200.

Here's the thing in the spoiler tag in case something happens to the link.

  Hide contents

Only a select few have seen what I'm about to reveal here -- namely, the synopsis of the stories I planned leading to SONIC #175 and eventually SONIC #200. The following list was submitted to Mike Pellerito at his request while I was writing the Shadow storyline that saw print in issues #157 through #159.

Without further ado, I present to you what might have been...

SONIC: LINE OF SUCCESSION PTS I & II (SONIC #155 & #156)

SONIC: SYSTEM SHUTDOWN/RECONFIGURATION/REBOOT (SONIC #157, #158 & #159)

SONIC: ALL MY TOMORROWS... (SONIC #160 & #161) - King Sonic discovers he’s returned to the scene of one of his greatest battles and possibly the cause of his problems in the future. The problem is that no one can see or hear him, and any attempt to take action results in someone suspecting a supernatural cause. When he returns to the future, he discovers a changed world on top of having failed to change events in the past. As a last resort, Rotor sends Nicole into the past after having created her.

SONIC: LAST TANGO IN KNOTHOLE (SONIC #162) - Uncle Chuck and Rosie emerge on the town for a real date, and it’s up to Sonic to play guardian angel and prevent Robotnik’s stealth-bots from spoiling the happy couple’s evening. (16 pages)

SONIC: GIRLS NIGHT OUT (SONIC #163) - Some teasing from Ash results in Mina and Amy Rose making their way into Robotnik’s stronghold to prove they’re just as capable on their own as any Freedom Fighter (re: Sonic). When Sally hears what they’re up to, she and Sonic head out after them, only to discover Rouge and Nic the Weasel are on the scene, each looking to abscond with the rare gem that will power Robotnik’s latest weapon. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: THIS ROBIAN, THIS HEDGEHOG (SONIC #164) - When Sonic overhears how much his father resents his condition, unable to enjoy a “normal” life with his wife, Sonic risks all to find a cure. With the aid of his Uncle Chuck, Sonic makes his way into the Robotnik’s nano-tech labs and retrieves what he hopes is the answer to the problem. Unfortunately, Jules is still a Robian at the end, but thanks to nano-technology, he now looks more like his old self. (16 pages)

SONIC: LAST MAN STANDING (SONIC #165) - Antoine pops THE question to Bunnie. Unfortunately, she’s not able to respond before the gang has to go off on a mission to shut down Robotnik’s power plant before a meltdown in the core. While Sonic does all he can to ensure a safe ending for all, circumstances dictate a sacrifice on someone’s part, and Snively ends up proving he had more moxie than anyone ever gave him credit for. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: FALL-OUT (SONIC #166) Sonic is racked with grief, feeling responsible for the death of Snively, and drives everyone that much harder when preparing for their next mission. As their assignment unfolds, everyone becomes uneasy as the possibility dawns that Sonic could cross a line he never did before. For the Freedom Fighters, this moral quandary becomes even more difficult when it’s discovered the enemy’s latest plan could result in the extinction of every lifeform on Mobius.

SONIC: NEW WORLD ORDER (SONIC #167) - Sonic finally is informed of the duties of his new rank: Gentleman-At-Arms. His first task: accompany Princess Sally to Station Square as she sets up Knothole’s first embassy in a foreign land. Naturally, there’s some trouble before the group departs, including Sally’s displeasure when Sonic’s new rank means he can overrule her when it comes to security, as Antoine’s duties as head of the Royal Guard conflict with his proposal to Bunnie. (16 pages)

SONIC: OUR HEDGEHOG IN STATION SQUARE (SONIC #168) - Now that Princess Sally, Sonic, Tails and Rotor have arrived in Station Square for the duration, Sonic finds getting around town is more awkward than he likes, thanks to Evil Sonic making the scene. But if Sonic can’t provoke his bad doppelganger into a fight one way, perhaps scoring with Rouge might do the trick. Now if only Sally doesn’t get into the act. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11 or 16-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: A DISH BEST SERVED COLD (SONIC #169 & #170) - Knuckles and the Chaotix show up at Station Square, mean and spoiling for a fight with the group that attempted to invade Angel Island. Unfortunately, with the new alliance pact in place between Knothole and Station Square, that puts Sonic on a collision course with the embattled echidna. (2 16-page stories)

The idea was to tease whether or not Bunnie would accept based on the premise that she wasn't sure her and Antoine could lead a normal life due to her bionic parts. Eventually, events in SONIC #175 would have resulted in her saying yes to their engagement, leading to a spectacular wedding in #200.

Along the way, we would have explored the Sonic-Sally relationship in greater depth as I would be steering to get those two together after several trials and tribulations in which neither was sure what they themselves or the other really wanted.

When I resumed writing SONIC as a main feature with issue #145, I made it clear I was aiming to correct the fiasco Karl foisted upon fandom with the infamous slap. Both Mike and I were determined to correct what mainly perceived at the time as the worst moment in the book's history. However, neither of us saw that getting corrected over the course of an issue or two or three. Rather, it was decided that Sonic would play the field for awhile, allowing him to discover exactly why Sally was always the girl for him.

One of the things that made it difficult during my resumption of being the head writer was that in some ways it was accidental. Initially, I was going to submit whatever stories struck my fancy and spend the rest of my time working on other projects. So I wrote the stories published in SONIC #150 and 151 first, then was asked to begin writing what eventually became "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UNKNOWN" Part 1. Karl and I were supposed to alternate each successive chapter, but that plan went out the window when he and Mike couldn't work things out. Somewhere during the writing of issues #146 through #149, Mike decided he wanted stories to lead into the saga, which then resulted in me writing what eventually became SONIC #145. After finishing "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UNKNOWN", I recall then writing "LINE OF SUCCESSION" Parts 1 & 2, upon which I was then asked to write what eventually saw print in SONIC #152.

What was really funny was reading Dan Drazen's reviews at the time, because he hadn't a clue what turmoil was going on behind the scenes trying to get the book out. As I always had a policy of saying nothing in defense when a paying customer criticized my work, I just shook my head and sighed. No one knew about the rewrites that were demanded, often which made no sense, nor did I get paid for. Nor the changes to story length and format that changed at a moment's notice. What made it even funnier was that while Dan was slamming the book, sales were going up and people paid attention I was in charge of the storylines again, much to the majority of the audience's approval.

The way I saw it, I was going to have fun writing what I did. It showed, and the audience responded. The only part I saw where I would have to tread darkly is the fall of Snively. Mike had wanted me to set him up for the audience to embrace him as they never did before, only to kill him off to rattle everyone, announcing to everyone not to take the book for granted as one would never know what to expect after that.

...is it safe to say that we dodged a bullet with this one

Oh yeah, I remember those. Funny how some things work out.

I honestly forgot about Station Square possibly invading Angel Island, though.

Hesitant as I am to ask, how were the sales around that general point in time?

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Penders' idea to redeem Snively and kill him off and have it be a really emotional moment that has Sonic wracked with grief has always felt super weird to me. Snively has been evil and a sworn enemy of the Freedom Fighters for many, many years. Sure, if he finally sacrificed himself, it would be emotional, but grief seems like it'd be an odd response. I would more expect them to be stunned that he had good in him after all, thankful for his sacrifice, and be more serious and somber for a while in light of it. But would they MISS Snively? Of course not! He's been sidekick to one of the worst villains in Mobius' history since the Freedom Fighters were kids! So why would Sonic be "wracked with grief" as though Snively was one of his friends?? And that's not even getting to the weirdness of why Penders felt the need to redeem him or kill him off in the first place.

Some of the other ideas sound OK, but that doesn't necessarily mean they would be any good in Penders' hands...

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I'm a big fan of the rare pair of Sonouge so everytime I see that damn pitch where Sonic plans to bang Rouge to make Evil Sonic fight him I'm filled with blinding rage.

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26 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

I'm a big fan of the rare pair of Sonouge so everytime I see that damn pitch where Sonic plans to bang Rouge to make Evil Sonic fight him I'm filled with blinding rage.

...what, fucking what? Was that a thing? Why...oh my god there is so many things wrong with the penders era rolled up into a big ball of crap, in what you just said.

48 minutes ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

Penders' idea to redeem Snively and kill him off and have it be a really emotional moment that has Sonic wracked with grief has always felt super weird to me. Snively has been evil and a sworn enemy of the Freedom Fighters for many, many years. Sure, if he finally sacrificed himself, it would be emotional, but grief seems like it'd be an odd response. I would more expect them to be stunned that he had good in him after all, thankful for his sacrifice, and be more serious and somber for a while in light of it. But would they MISS Snively? Of course not! He's been sidekick to one of the worst villains in Mobius' history since the Freedom Fighters were kids! So why would Sonic be "wracked with grief" as though Snively was one of his friends?? And that's not even getting to the weirdness of why Penders felt the need to redeem him or kill him off in the first place.

Some of the other ideas sound OK, but that doesn't necessarily mean they would be any good in Penders' hands...

He's in too deep. I mean is in, as still actively to this day.

Joking aside he actually is, sometimes writers get so obsessed with their characters greater context is lost. Not saying folks cant be forgiven or mourned. I'm not unfamiliar with spontaneous character forgiveness syndrome myself

Looks at my avatar

But I dunno sometimes creators get so into whatever all their characters or at least the ones they really like are special dolls that have to be around and if they do have to go it will be incredible fan fare, regardless of who they were. This isnt to say you can't like your work or apathy is the state of a true creator or any bull like that. But sometimes folks are in too deep are just a bit more invested some characters than they should. There's a whole conversation to be had about Steven universe in that regard, so it even happens in less awful things. He just, over valued his toys.

Now this conversation comes with the context of "I cant objectively tell you what character is the best investment" , but I feel like we both agree in this instance it's a bit funky. Seems kinda weird they would care when sonic characters have condemned folks to being dead , kinda often and we just slide on past it. But I suppose penders never really cared much about game stuff anyway. And to his credit I plan flynn is doing a tilt on that sort of thing in the new comics right now. So that level of villainous forgiveness wasn't with out some merit. At least to those in the writing room

 

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3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

SONIC: LAST TANGO IN KNOTHOLE (SONIC #162) - Uncle Chuck and Rosie emerge on the town for a real date, and it’s up to Sonic to play guardian angel and prevent Robotnik’s stealth-bots from spoiling the happy couple’s evening. (16 pages)

Why the hell would Robotnik even care about their date?

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2 hours ago, SBR2 said:

I'm a big fan of the rare pair of Sonouge so everytime I see that damn pitch where Sonic plans to bang Rouge to make Evil Sonic fight him I'm filled with blinding rage.

I was trying to hold it in, dangit! :joy: 

 

1 hour ago, Panda Claus said:

Why the hell would Robotnik even care about their date?

No clue. I guess the idea is that Eggman was planning a sneak attack that just so happened to fall in line with the stories events, but when you remember how Mina and Ash became a couple...

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3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

...what, fucking what? Was that a thing? Why...oh my god there is so many things wrong with the penders era rolled up into a big ball of crap, in what you just said.

 

I mean the pitch reads "perhaps scoring with Rouge will do the trick" which as far as I know has just one meaning and that's having sex with someone. 

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19 hours ago, Ellipsis-Ultima said:

So...anyone heard about the scrapped stories Penders planned? From issues 155 to 175 and the events that lead to issue 200.

Here's the thing in the spoiler tag in case something happens to the link.

  Hide contents

Only a select few have seen what I'm about to reveal here -- namely, the synopsis of the stories I planned leading to SONIC #175 and eventually SONIC #200. The following list was submitted to Mike Pellerito at his request while I was writing the Shadow storyline that saw print in issues #157 through #159.

Without further ado, I present to you what might have been...

SONIC: LINE OF SUCCESSION PTS I & II (SONIC #155 & #156)

SONIC: SYSTEM SHUTDOWN/RECONFIGURATION/REBOOT (SONIC #157, #158 & #159)

SONIC: ALL MY TOMORROWS... (SONIC #160 & #161) - King Sonic discovers he’s returned to the scene of one of his greatest battles and possibly the cause of his problems in the future. The problem is that no one can see or hear him, and any attempt to take action results in someone suspecting a supernatural cause. When he returns to the future, he discovers a changed world on top of having failed to change events in the past. As a last resort, Rotor sends Nicole into the past after having created her.

SONIC: LAST TANGO IN KNOTHOLE (SONIC #162) - Uncle Chuck and Rosie emerge on the town for a real date, and it’s up to Sonic to play guardian angel and prevent Robotnik’s stealth-bots from spoiling the happy couple’s evening. (16 pages)

SONIC: GIRLS NIGHT OUT (SONIC #163) - Some teasing from Ash results in Mina and Amy Rose making their way into Robotnik’s stronghold to prove they’re just as capable on their own as any Freedom Fighter (re: Sonic). When Sally hears what they’re up to, she and Sonic head out after them, only to discover Rouge and Nic the Weasel are on the scene, each looking to abscond with the rare gem that will power Robotnik’s latest weapon. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: THIS ROBIAN, THIS HEDGEHOG (SONIC #164) - When Sonic overhears how much his father resents his condition, unable to enjoy a “normal” life with his wife, Sonic risks all to find a cure. With the aid of his Uncle Chuck, Sonic makes his way into the Robotnik’s nano-tech labs and retrieves what he hopes is the answer to the problem. Unfortunately, Jules is still a Robian at the end, but thanks to nano-technology, he now looks more like his old self. (16 pages)

SONIC: LAST MAN STANDING (SONIC #165) - Antoine pops THE question to Bunnie. Unfortunately, she’s not able to respond before the gang has to go off on a mission to shut down Robotnik’s power plant before a meltdown in the core. While Sonic does all he can to ensure a safe ending for all, circumstances dictate a sacrifice on someone’s part, and Snively ends up proving he had more moxie than anyone ever gave him credit for. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: FALL-OUT (SONIC #166) Sonic is racked with grief, feeling responsible for the death of Snively, and drives everyone that much harder when preparing for their next mission. As their assignment unfolds, everyone becomes uneasy as the possibility dawns that Sonic could cross a line he never did before. For the Freedom Fighters, this moral quandary becomes even more difficult when it’s discovered the enemy’s latest plan could result in the extinction of every lifeform on Mobius.

SONIC: NEW WORLD ORDER (SONIC #167) - Sonic finally is informed of the duties of his new rank: Gentleman-At-Arms. His first task: accompany Princess Sally to Station Square as she sets up Knothole’s first embassy in a foreign land. Naturally, there’s some trouble before the group departs, including Sally’s displeasure when Sonic’s new rank means he can overrule her when it comes to security, as Antoine’s duties as head of the Royal Guard conflict with his proposal to Bunnie. (16 pages)

SONIC: OUR HEDGEHOG IN STATION SQUARE (SONIC #168) - Now that Princess Sally, Sonic, Tails and Rotor have arrived in Station Square for the duration, Sonic finds getting around town is more awkward than he likes, thanks to Evil Sonic making the scene. But if Sonic can’t provoke his bad doppelganger into a fight one way, perhaps scoring with Rouge might do the trick. Now if only Sally doesn’t get into the act. (16 pages if 1 issue or 2 11 or 16-page stories if spread over two issues)

SONIC: A DISH BEST SERVED COLD (SONIC #169 & #170) - Knuckles and the Chaotix show up at Station Square, mean and spoiling for a fight with the group that attempted to invade Angel Island. Unfortunately, with the new alliance pact in place between Knothole and Station Square, that puts Sonic on a collision course with the embattled echidna. (2 16-page stories)

The idea was to tease whether or not Bunnie would accept based on the premise that she wasn't sure her and Antoine could lead a normal life due to her bionic parts. Eventually, events in SONIC #175 would have resulted in her saying yes to their engagement, leading to a spectacular wedding in #200.

Along the way, we would have explored the Sonic-Sally relationship in greater depth as I would be steering to get those two together after several trials and tribulations in which neither was sure what they themselves or the other really wanted.

When I resumed writing SONIC as a main feature with issue #145, I made it clear I was aiming to correct the fiasco Karl foisted upon fandom with the infamous slap. Both Mike and I were determined to correct what mainly perceived at the time as the worst moment in the book's history. However, neither of us saw that getting corrected over the course of an issue or two or three. Rather, it was decided that Sonic would play the field for awhile, allowing him to discover exactly why Sally was always the girl for him.

One of the things that made it difficult during my resumption of being the head writer was that in some ways it was accidental. Initially, I was going to submit whatever stories struck my fancy and spend the rest of my time working on other projects. So I wrote the stories published in SONIC #150 and 151 first, then was asked to begin writing what eventually became "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UNKNOWN" Part 1. Karl and I were supposed to alternate each successive chapter, but that plan went out the window when he and Mike couldn't work things out. Somewhere during the writing of issues #146 through #149, Mike decided he wanted stories to lead into the saga, which then resulted in me writing what eventually became SONIC #145. After finishing "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UNKNOWN", I recall then writing "LINE OF SUCCESSION" Parts 1 & 2, upon which I was then asked to write what eventually saw print in SONIC #152.

What was really funny was reading Dan Drazen's reviews at the time, because he hadn't a clue what turmoil was going on behind the scenes trying to get the book out. As I always had a policy of saying nothing in defense when a paying customer criticized my work, I just shook my head and sighed. No one knew about the rewrites that were demanded, often which made no sense, nor did I get paid for. Nor the changes to story length and format that changed at a moment's notice. What made it even funnier was that while Dan was slamming the book, sales were going up and people paid attention I was in charge of the storylines again, much to the majority of the audience's approval.

The way I saw it, I was going to have fun writing what I did. It showed, and the audience responded. The only part I saw where I would have to tread darkly is the fall of Snively. Mike had wanted me to set him up for the audience to embrace him as they never did before, only to kill him off to rattle everyone, announcing to everyone not to take the book for granted as one would never know what to expect after that.

...is it safe to say that we dodged a bullet with this one

"Dodged a bullet"? Well, put it this way, it's more like:

source.gif

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On 11/30/2019 at 10:45 AM, Ellipsis-Ultima said:

SONIC: ALL MY TOMORROWS...

Stop using TOMORROWS in your titles for things Ken. TOMORROWS is not a good word. I know all words are made up but some words are better than others. That word is a not a good word.

On 11/30/2019 at 10:45 AM, Ellipsis-Ultima said:

SONIC: FALL-OUT (SONIC #166) Sonic is racked with grief, feeling responsible for the death of Snively,

PFFFT! 

Sorry. When I was reading that, I was expecting it to say the death of Sally or someone he might care way more about. Reading Snively almost made me choke on my saliva. Not saying Sonic wouldn't care if he got the dude killed but, especially at this point in the comic's life, Snively wasn't exactly the nicest of dudes either so grief might be too much. I could see Sonic being a bit rattled and a little too cautious for a bit but  I dunno about a whole plot centered on him turning into Paton because of it. I also thought that Sally was supposedly the leader but than again, Ken wanted her dead so I guess not.

On 11/30/2019 at 10:45 AM, Ellipsis-Ultima said:

SONIC: NEW WORLD ORDER (SONIC #167) - Sonic finally is informed of the duties of his new rank: Gentleman-At-Arms. His first task: accompany Princess Sally to Station Square as she sets up Knothole’s first embassy in a foreign land. Naturally, there’s some trouble before the group departs, including Sally’s displeasure when Sonic’s new rank means he can overrule her when it comes to security, as Antoine’s duties as head of the Royal Guard conflict with his proposal to Bunnie. (16 pages)

This entire thing reads like one of the most alien and strangest things I might randomly come across browsing Fanfiction.net. Sonic is a soldier with a rank "Gentleman-(HA!) At-Arms" and is going with his girlfriend, the princess, to Station Square to set up an embassy for his kingdom and then politics ensue...? Are they the kind of politics that get Sonic framed and put him on the run because than it might feel more adventure-esque. 

I know this was a different time and the chemical make up of the Archie comics, even in Ian's run, was pretty much this for the longest time. I have so many of these books after all. Despite knowing that, it's STILL weird to me. 

On 11/30/2019 at 10:45 AM, Ellipsis-Ultima said:

. But if Sonic can’t provoke his bad doppelganger into a fight one way, perhaps scoring with Rouge might do the trick.

Ah yes. Truly the Sonic way of handling a situation. Scoring with Rouge the Bat.

Christ.

On 11/30/2019 at 10:45 AM, Ellipsis-Ultima said:

So I wrote the stories published in SONIC #150 and 151 first, then was asked to begin writing what eventually became "THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UNKNOWN" Part 1.

The Good, The Bad, and the Unknown are some of the few issues I own before 160. When I got the back issues it came with Issues 150 onward. I read them all, expecting good art and good stories, but I didn't get either of those until 160. So I just decided to put 160 onward in my binders and chucked 159 and below into a corner somewhere. I still have them,

This was before I even knew about Ian, Penders, Gallagher, and Karl. 

Sorry Ken, but those stories were just some bullshit. Maybe I'll find one I like somewhere in the mess after Issue 50. I just finished reading and reacting to Endgame but I know for a fact that I'm mostly in for some weird and borderline offensive shit. 

Not everything I read in this post sounded like the worst thing ever but they're just synopsis' to stories that when acted out, no doubt would have been far worse. I'll never not be happy that things changed for the better. 

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