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The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

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36 minutes ago, Zonic 2099 said:

So now it's about royalties?

LMAO.  You didn’t just want royalties Penders.  You wanted creative control too. You wanted Mobius 25 Years Later, the worst arc in the comics, to be the canon future.  You wanted to be notified every time they wanted to use your characters so you could either approve or reject them.  Why would Sega and Archie give creative control to an outsider?  So don’t make this just about royalties.  

You saw this as a chance to slither your way back into the comics.  Since it didn’t happen, you’re trying to advertise a fanfiction to strike a deal with a company.  But thanks to your actions, you’ve blacklisted yourself.  So there’s no light at the end of the tunnel for you.  Just move on and quit clinging to Sonic.  The franchise was fine before you and fine after you.

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6 minutes ago, Almar said:

So, did anyone tell him about Echidnas in Sonic Movie yet?

He saw the movie already. He basically did an 'exercise' about how those Echidna could CONCEIVABLY have been Dark Legion recruits on a mission, showing how 'easy' it would be to cohesively add his elements. When confronted over how idiotic it was, he said that 'clearly' the Legion wouldn't trust raw recruits with modern weaponry. It then devolved into him implying that if the Echidna demonstrated advanced technology that he could sue since they would need permission to do, which resulted in lengthy arguments and painstaking attempts to point out that not only did the concept not begin with him in the first place, but it's one that's so broad it can't be owned by anyone anyway. This resulted in Penders essentially digging his head into the dirt to drown out the noise and then blocking SkullPirateMike for the crime of attempting to actually reason with him like an adult. 

So no, he didn't accuse the movie of stealing the Echidna from him.

He did however claim that Longclaw was a Julayla equivalent, so, yeah. And then, bizzarely, suggested that the reason Sonic's parents weren't shown was because of him in some way. 

Yeah, in short? A whole lotta dumb. 

 

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I'm waiting for ken to start trying to claim he was the inspiration for sega game characters before they were created.

"I actually came up with idea first infinite back during [irrelevant bullshit] . I see they were inspired "

Well, if you look closely Infinite does kind of look like Enerjak.. 🤔

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1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

There are also rumours of Penders ruining Ben Hurst's attempts at pitching a collaborative SatAm movie by trying to monopolise it into his own vanity project.

Those are a bit more than rumors; both Ben and Ken have talked about it, though their accounts vary.

2 hours ago, SkullPirateMike said:

It's all just a desperate cling to relevance. For a few years between Sonic & Knuckles and Sonic Adventure, he was the main producer of Sonic content for America. It's still what he's best known for. He wants to believe he's as important to Sonic as Sonic has been to him, but, thanks to his own actions, his legacy was erased. His stories aren't even available as reprints any more, and the kids the series is aimed at now have never heard of any of his characters. Everything he's done to try and assert how important he is to the franchise has only made his work more forgotten. It's sad.

This used to be my reaction to his antics, but at this point, it's not even worth that. Like the chicken who crossed the road, the wheels have long since fallen off this joke.

If he at least had ANYTHING to show for it besides the saddest Twitter timeline in the history of the platform....

As much as I'm in favor of royalties for creators, though, the simple truth is that if they weren't agreed upon, they aren't really owed. You negotiate that upfront. But I wouldn't expect someone who can't even comprehend collaborative work such as a comic book to really understand or appreciate that.

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 I really think Pen left the comic expecting Mike to resort to bargaining for him to come back like J.G. did.

For all the bitterness he feels about not only being unable to write the comic, I for the life of me will never understand how he has yet to realize his legal shenanigans and antagonistic behavior are the reasons why he will never be part of the series again.

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11 minutes ago, Zonic 2099 said:

 I really think Pen left the comic expecting Mike to resort to bargaining for him to come back like J.G. did.

For all the bitterness he feels about not only being unable to write the comic, I for the life of me will never understand how he has yet to realize his legal shenanigans and antagonistic behavior are the reasons why he will never be part of the series again.

Because he's "right." And apparently, that's all he thinks matters.

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51 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

The more you read into Penders, the more sad, pathetic, and absolutely depressing it is. Behind the grandeur, and the bold claims, there's just an bad writer who never quite got over his one and only source of legacy, and instead of moving on with his life and trying to improve and make an even greater legacy, he's still pathetically chasing after old glories and the one thing that people had a slight liking of when someone else wrote his concepts and ideas. While everyone else moved onto better things, he's still trying to stir shit and convince SEGA, people, and possibly himself that he actually mattered in the grand scheme of things, and to SEGA.

As mentioned above, what else is there to say than...

 

Couldn’t have said it myself bro.  It really is a shame that he took the short term win only to lose in the long run.

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31 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I mean, he's right about one thing. People are giving him far too much credit if they seriously believe he's the sole reason the comics were cancelled. 

As bad as Penders is, Archie themselves were also a bunch of incompetent fuckwits too. The way they handled the Sonic license after a certain point was, in hindsight, a large billboard advertising just how much they didn't give a shit anymore. If Penders was truly the sole reason for the comics cancellation, the comics would have ended after Worlds Collide. They wouldn't have bothered with a new continuity and it certainly wouldn't have gone on for as long as it did either.

Now, his nonsense definitely contributed to why the first continuity got wiped from existence. I know the man would tell you otherwise by trying to seriously pretend that all Archie had to do was ask him for permission to use his characters the way he wanted them to but there was no fucking way they were going to do that.

Whether out of pride or assurance that working anywhere near close to this insane weird person was not going to lead to anything good, there's no reasonable way someone could have expected Archie to accept that deal. Plus, at the end of the day, Pender's characters don't sell the book. It's the ones from the Sonic games who do and so long as they had that, they didn't need to put up with Penders and his bullshit anymore so they got rid of them. 

To be clear, Archie is incompetent as hell. The fact that I have to keep reminding myself that THEY sued HIM, then fired their legal team because they didn't know how to properly handle their own lawsuit, and then lost their case to this man, of all people, is pathetic. However, it's even worse that they made him right about something when it comes to the topic of being owed royalties. Now they're just selling main series Archie and a shit ton of Archie spin-offs... and Cosmo. Their continued existence is still incredibly baffling. However, at the very least they knew enough to not say okay to whatever it was Penders wanted. SEGA sure as hell wasn't going to allow it either if they had any say in the matter, even before Penders eventually sued them over Sonic Chronicles. Thankfully he lost that one because that one was just utter garbage. 

He's not the reason the comic was cancelled, sure, but he's definitely not 100% innocent either. His was just one of the many jenga pieces that were taken from the teetering tower. The way he's conducted himself after the fact is one of the heavy contributors to why he's such a villain in the eyes of many though. There's too much of it for any reasonable person to be on his side.

Passive aggressive personal attacks directed at Ian and his contemporaries, weird talk about anthros eating their own young, revisionist history about making it so that an underage girl had sex with an adult male, ugly ass character sheets and images of Lara-Su and other female characters wearing bikinis and being pin-up models, pretentious nonsense about alleged knowledge of film and law, saying weird sentences like "I was doing character development when I had a thought-", mismatched priorities that sees him designing mugs, shirts, and an app (for a SINGLE comic) before he's even made said comic, NOT making his comic after almost 10 years of promoting it, and carrying on like fucking EVERYONE is stealing ALL their ideas from YOU, a nobody that wouldn't be on anyone's radar if you weren't doing all the above awful shit. And etc. 

This is a situation where both parties were awful. I just have more outward disdain for Penders because I really have no reason to pay attention to Archie anymore. What's Archie gonna do that has anything to do with me anymore? Sneak a rancid, ugly, distracting Riverdale banner over the top of an IDW issue?

-qRIggRbuXKyG2cYK-BrUfNQEipNUqoii1O1vvooYT2y7_lbmqCR8D9raHgZgnNE2qu_FEYdIDh-Xc2-MkaehalDzWfxrDrgSA7JBN56oDVvNKvqRhzBuqMpXgsc5b6feSOtSUnX

OH NO! IT'S BACK!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAH~!

I don't doubt that his actions at the very least left a very bad aftertaste in the mouths of both SEGA and Archie, but I do agree Archie screwed up pretty bad. The licensing fee's from Worlds Unite, the legal shenanigans and Archie probably wanting to focus on Riverdale probably all made them just want to drop the comic.

While I see Pen as a factor in the break up between SEGA and Archie, to some people Penders is just that easy of a scapegoat and his behavior doesn't help matters. 😕

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44 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I mean, he's right about one thing. People are giving him far too much credit if they seriously believe he's the sole reason the comics were cancelled. 

As bad as Penders is, Archie themselves were also a bunch of incompetent fuckwits too. The way they handled the Sonic license after a certain point was, in hindsight, a large billboard advertising just how much they didn't give a shit anymore. If Penders was truly the sole reason for the comics cancellation, the comics would have ended after Worlds Collide. They wouldn't have bothered with a new continuity and it certainly wouldn't have gone on for as long as it did either.

Now, his nonsense definitely contributed to why the first continuity got wiped from existence. I know the man would tell you otherwise by trying to seriously pretend that all Archie had to do was ask him for permission to use his characters the way he wanted them to but there was no fucking way they were going to do that.

Whether out of pride or assurance that working anywhere near close to this insane weird person was not going to lead to anything good, there's no reasonable way someone could have expected Archie to accept that deal. Plus, at the end of the day, Pender's characters don't sell the book. It's the ones from the Sonic games who do and so long as they had that, they didn't need to put up with Penders and his bullshit anymore so they got rid of them. 

To be clear, Archie is incompetent as hell. The fact that I have to keep reminding myself that THEY sued HIM, then fired their legal team because they didn't know how to properly handle their own lawsuit, and then lost their case to this man, of all people, is pathetic. However, it's even worse that they made him right about something when it comes to the topic of being owed royalties. Now they're just selling main series Archie and a shit ton of Archie spin-offs... and Cosmo. Their continued existence is still incredibly baffling. However, at the very least they knew enough to not say okay to whatever it was Penders wanted. SEGA sure as hell wasn't going to allow it either if they had any say in the matter, even before Penders eventually sued them over Sonic Chronicles. Thankfully he lost that one.

He's not the main reason the comic was cancelled, sure, but he's definitely not 100% innocent either. His was just one of the many jenga pieces that were taken from the teetering tower. The way he's conducted himself after the fact is one of the heavy contributors to why he's such a villain in the eyes of many though. There's too much of it for any reasonable person to be on his side.

Passive aggressive personal attacks directed at Ian and his contemporaries, weird talk about anthros eating their own young, revisionist history about making it so that an underage girl had sex with an adult male, ugly ass character sheets and images of Lara-Su and other female characters wearing bikinis and being pin-up models, pretentious nonsense about alleged knowledge of film and law, saying weird sentences like "I was doing character development when I had a thought-", mismatched priorities that sees him designing mugs, shirts, and an app (for a SINGLE comic) before he's even made said comic, NOT making his comic after almost 10 years of promoting it, and carrying on like fucking EVERYONE is stealing ALL their ideas from HIM, a nobody that wouldn't be on anyone's radar if he weren't doing all the above awful shit. And etc. 

This is a situation where both parties were awful. I just have more outward disdain for Penders because I really have no reason to pay attention to Archie anymore. What's Archie gonna do that has anything to do with me anymore? Sneak a rancid, ugly, distracting Riverdale banner over the top of an IDW issue?

-qRIggRbuXKyG2cYK-BrUfNQEipNUqoii1O1vvooYT2y7_lbmqCR8D9raHgZgnNE2qu_FEYdIDh-Xc2-MkaehalDzWfxrDrgSA7JBN56oDVvNKvqRhzBuqMpXgsc5b6feSOtSUnX

OH NO! IT'S BACK!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAH~!

I agree that Archie dropped the ball hard in this lawsuit.  If they came up with the contract, the case would have been open and shut.  They lose the contract and fired their legal team for it.  How is losing your paperwork your legal team's fault?  But let's be honest.  Archie had no choice but to sue Penders.  If they didn't sue and tried to make a deal to appease Penders, SEGA would have gotten pissed, and Archie loses the license in 2011 instead of 2017.  Archie's lawyers tried to say the contract was lost in a fire.  That's the courtroom equivalent of "a dog ate my homework".

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14 minutes ago, goldenchimchar said:

But let's be honest.  Archie had no choice but to sue Penders.  If they didn't sue and tried to make a deal to appease Penders, SEGA would have gotten pissed, and Archie loses the license in 2011 instead of 2017.  Archie's lawyers tried to say the contract was lost in a fire.  That's the courtroom equivalent of "a dog ate my homework".

This.  One thing a lot of people (including Ken himself) tend to forget is that the lawsuit was originally set off by Ken threatening legal action.  Archie didn't sue him out of the blue; They preempted him after he called for them to cease and desist.

http://web.archive.org/web/20160327222526/http://www.kenpenders.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=133

Quote

At this time, anyone distributing and selling copies of SONIC ARCHIVES Nos. 3 through 13, SONIC SELECT Nos. 1 and 2, as well as any of the latest issues of SONIC THE HEDGEHOG and SONIC UNIVERSE that feature my characters in any way, shape or form will be asked to cease and desist or else risk facing the consequences. This includes any version of said material, which also includes my original works, which sees release in any format beyond the original published comic books, including but not limited to digital downloads. (Yes, the iTunes and iPhones stores distributing my stories are currently infringing my copyrights, and are in the process of being made aware of this infringement.)

 

But regardless, it's pretty much undeniable that Archie and their legal team dropped the ball massively.  You don't start a lawsuit unless you have all your ducks in a row.  Archie started a lawsuit and then realized the ducks ran away years ago.

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10 hours ago, Tylinos said:

This.  One thing a lot of people (including Ken himself) tend to forget is that the lawsuit was originally set off by Ken threatening legal action.  Archie didn't sue him out of the blue; They preempted him after he called for them to cease and desist.

http://web.archive.org/web/20160327222526/http://www.kenpenders.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=133

 

But regardless, it's pretty much undeniable that Archie and their legal team dropped the ball massively.  You don't start a lawsuit unless you have all your ducks in a row.  Archie started a lawsuit and then realized the ducks ran away years ago.

I can cut Archie a little slack in the earlier days for not staying on top of things when they probably thought the comic would probably end early on. I mean the fact for the longest time they took so long in actually putting the series out in graphic novel form is really telling.
Of course, Penders, Bollers and Gallagher stuck around for a long time didn't they? All that time they could have gotten all three of them under contract and they didn't.

Archie did mess up, but at worst they were just stupid about this. Penders on the other hand was anything but Mr. Reasonable. He risked the early death of the property he was trying to benefit from and the deals that we do know he tried to strike with Archie and/or SEGA are hilariously mind boggling. Considering SEGA doesn't even touch the Freedom Fighters, there's no way they'd use his characters even more so if it means letting some guy trying to sue them over a DS game the right to use Knuckles.

I do like some of his characters, Rob, Julie-Su Elias, Lien-Da and the Dark Legion and Scourge.. (Though Ian is his real daddy in my opinion) but now they are pretty much all tainted for me at least (Scourge being the exception because again, Ian). There are so many ways Ken could have benefited from this if he wasn't trying to make deals that would only be beneficial to himself. Like again, give the characters back in exchange for reprint royalties. I don't think Archie would have any reason to not accept that deal. But instead we have him only give them back..or more likely give Archie & SEGA dual ownership if he gets the rights to use Knuckles in his projects.. which hopefully would not come with his ridiculous three mandates.

I really don't want to dislike the guy, anyone for that matter, but there's only so much leeway I can give a person before seeing them as an irredeemable lost cause. Even if they did a lot of work in shaping one of my favorite comics.

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Alright, I watched the third interview. I skipped out on the 2nd because listening to nearly an hour of Penders was bad enough, but over an hour is too much. At 25 minutes, this was a lot more digestible. 

So, a few things of note- 

-Evidently his wife was involved in the business negotiations part of things, while Penders describes himself as the 'Sonic Creative Guy'. Yeah, between his wife and Larry Houston he kind of comes off as The Weakest Link. 

-Regarding the design changes he made in those hideous bits of concept art that were a part of his pitch, he evidently did that in anticipation of copyright as well as potential marketing. Likewise, he mentions the goal was to do the movie in such a way that if SEGA wished it, assets made for the movie could be repurposed into use for the games. This is not the last time this particular logic will rear its head. 

-He relays a story about how a past studio got the license to do a Sonic movie, only to bury it so that it wouldn't compete with something else they were working on. I believe he's mentioned this elsewhere, but I'm going to re-iterate it here. 

-According to him, after the initial pitch he and Houston were offered a possible partnership in making the film by a pair of SEGA of Japan Executives, only for SEGA to undergo a massive shift the very next day, with those pair no longer working for the company. He describes it as a 'purge'. 

-Interestingly, when the first attempt by he and Houston to make a Sonic movie went Kaput, they then attempted to get a Phantasy Star movie made in the hopes of demonstrating to SEGA that they could in fact make a successful movie out of one of their properties. God only knows what THAT might have looked like. I'm a little startled to learn he even knows what a Phantasy Star IS. 

-He goes into a bit of detail about the plot of Armageddon itself. His stated goal was to 'go beyond SatAM' and then make subsequent movies based off the comics, and indicated he wanted to off Robotnik after the first film. I'm sensing a pattern here....

-His justification for using the comics is rather revealing of his entire mindset, especially regarding the place of the comics in the grand scheme of things. He cites how all the 'best' movies of these last several years have all been comic based and specifically cites Marvel as justification for his belief in using the comic books first and foremost as the basis for a Sonic film. So basically the same logical fallacy he spews out whenever it's pointed out that Sonic is a video game franchise and NOT a comic book series, once again hinting that he honestly seems to think the books were the most known/popular part of Sonic rather than the actual games. 

-Hilariously he's asked about the initial design for Sonic in the live action film vs the redesign. Penders claims he would have gone with the redesign from the beginning, but neglects to bring up that he had initially praised that damn thing. 

-Finally we get into Lara-Su Chronicles a bit, and here are some of the more significant reveals- firstly, his insistence on doing the comic in digital is tied into him, much like with the Sonic film, wanting to do so as a means of making it easy to repurpose those images for use in tie-in products and the like. However, the biggest reveal has come with him describing how he wanted to proceed with the App- evidently when the App is released it will contain the first chapter of the first book of LSC, and from then on new chapters would be uploaded to it as they are completed. Which sounds suspiciously like, oh, a goddamn WEBCOMIC. A crappy one that you need an APP for. Likewise, he reasons that the reason this is taking so long is because he is planning for a global release as well as trying to introduce voice acting and narration and so forth, as well as translations for multiple audience releases overseas. He claims that he HOPES to have something out by Summer, but given his track record I'm not liking the odds of that one manifesting. 

Words kinda fail me. 

After that he goes on about the Republic and tries to hype it and himself as being ahead of the curb... unfortunately the exact premise of the Republic has been done already, and done better at that, given that even with current events it still comes off as clunky and frankly cartoonish, going by the horrendous things we see on its facebook page. 

So yeah, that's Ken on the Movies. 

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I did find it pretty hypocritical that he talked about the change in design and how it was a smart move when he himself refuses to take any kind of criticism.

But given how much he's investing in this app, and knowing how most people feel about it, I do worry he won't be able to take the financial blow if and when this thing comes out.

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1 hour ago, horridus said:

Sooo this just happened....

 

 

 

I should point out that first of all, Pellerito wasn't an editor for that issue- Justin Gabrie was, and Pellerito was only the assistant editor then. Likewise, the issue where the Slap happened was nearly 30 issues before Flynn would make his first script. Even for Penders, this is pretty damn ludicrous. 

So your response to the criticism is to bring up the mistakes other writers made?  I love the whataboutism there.  Bringing up the Slap doesn't negate the mistakes you made on the comic nor does it negate the criticism on you.  This guy is obviously jealous that Ian is well-liked by the fans while he isn't.  Ian doesn't ever bring up Ken Penders, but Ken Penders sure does love talking about Ian a lot.

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The slap was all around badly executed, and Jon Gray's 'demonic' artwork didn't help humanise Sally in that instance either, but the thing is the one thing people wanted to culminate that moment Ian did; and that is have Sally SAY SHE WAS SORRY ALREADY. For the narrative to treat her action as flawed and her to take responsibility for it. Yeah it was in past tense after over 30 issues and even then was likely only done because it was practically a meme for Archie's worst writing moments, but it was something Penders and everyone else on board at the time never thought of doing at all, just make Sally remotely repentant.

Truthfully most characters of similar archetype to Sally tend to have that 'big nasty vitriolic outburst' moment somewhere down the line, but the thing is it almost always leads to remorse and humility, to show the character regrets hurting those they care about so the cast and audience can forgive them. Sally was prone to outbursts in the Penders era anyway, I almost appreciate he kept a little of her early matriarch side, but at times it felt like he almost systematically avoided making her face consequences or even just apologise for a single one of them, which was a much bigger factor in her feeling unsympathetic. One of the most absolute worst writing approaches you can use when a character has done something unlikeable is try to sweep it under the rug (and this wasn't the only example left dangling after Penders' run either, what exactly would have happened with Sonic and Tails had he stayed?).

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