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The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

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48 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

It's also a title he used before for a Geoffrey St. John backup story that had him put together the Secret Service. 

Not at all surprising that Penders' work is so derivative of everything* that he even copies himself.

(* Except Sonic, ironically enough.)

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8 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Guys, stop being so mean. It's not as if another comic managed to follow the SEGA guidelines and information, and make a comic that's fairly accurate to game material while doing it's own neat thing. None at all.

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None.

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At. 

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All.

Yeah it did but from what I hear they made sonic the biggest jerk he had ever been

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I still like penders’ work despite his flaws, at least he didn’t have sonic be a total jerk

and at least he didn’t have a characetr spout his origin every single issue he was in

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1 hour ago, Leebo4 said:

I still like penders’ work despite his flaws, at least he didn’t have sonic be a total jerk

and at least he didn’t have a characetr spout his origin every single issue he was in

Yeah, you're right.

It's not as if he had Sonic start a relationship with a girl he knew his best friend had a crush on...

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And while being in a relationship with said girl still felt a need to disrupt his ex-girlfriend's arranged wedding for vaguely defined reasons that ultimately amount to him still feeling like she should be with him...

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(Do keep in mind that Sonic has no clue that's actually Antoine's evil twin. He doesn't even have THAT as a reason to do this.)

Or had Sonic still openly pine for said ex-girlfriend even as he was dating another girl, for whom he damaged his friendship with his closest friend to be with... 

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No sir ree, these are not the contemptible, sickening actions of a jackass. These are indeed the heroic actions of a character we are meant to like. And Penders most CERTAINLY did not illustrate his viewpoint of Sonic by painting him as someone who viewed girls more as entertainment and even painted his friendship with Tails as something more for the benefit of his own ego than anything...

http://mokat01.tripod.com/storeroom/edgy.txt

Quote

 

When you stop and think how Sega looks at the character, he’s all ego and attitude. He thinks about number one. He can accept Tails because Tails is the subordinate junior assistant to his main act. He’d consider Sally nothing more than a fun to be with every now and then (if that) and a drag the rest of the time. His attitude towards Sally, and females in general, in probably much like that MTV-character in the movie She’s All That. The way he ditches the girl is so Sonic-like. (“You think all I want to do is spend my life with you? That’s cool and all, but I gotta go fight Robotnik! Later, babe!”)

I know I’m going to get into a lot of disagreement with people over this, but I’ve yet to hear anyone ever say “Y’know, he can be such an arrogant jerk, but he’s really quite lovable under all that!” They usually stop the comment after the word “jerk”.

If Sonic ever dated anyone else, it’s not because he fancies himself a ladies man. He’d more likely think any girl would simply want the privilege of spending time with him. And if she ever did try to tie him down, he’d be gone in a flash.

Sonic does indeed care very much for Sally, as he would normally do for a sibling or very close friend. He more than likely cares for her in a very special way, but it took something like the scenario in ENDGAME for him to even come close to admitting it. Think about it. It isn’t until he thinks he’s lost her for good does he finally contemplate what she means to him. Even then, once it’s back to business as usual, he gets the ol’ wanderlust and goes searching for high adventure, giving not a hoot to what Sally feels.

 

Oh wait, Penders totally wrote ALL of that.

Penders' particular vision for who Sonic is as a person is, frankly, disgusting. Fleetway Sonic isn't ideal in a lot of ways, but he still doesn't hold a candle to what Penders envisions for Sonic. 

And Shortfuse mentioning his origin constantly is a cakewalk compared to the endless pages spent on a vaguely omniscient council of grandpas arguing about what to do and then doing all of squat to actually move the plot forward in any meaningful way, to say nothing of Knuckles being led around his nose and doing precious little to actually resolve any of the conflicts he finds himself a part in. And the less said about things like Chaos Knuckles or M:25YL, the better. 

 

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33 minutes ago, horridus said:

Yeah, you're right.

It's not as if he had Sonic start a relationship with a girl he knew his best friend had a crush on...

spacer.png

And while being in a relationship with said girl still felt a need to disrupt his ex-girlfriend's arranged wedding for vaguely defined reasons that ultimately amount to him still feeling like she should be with him...

CORhYG5.png

(Do keep in mind that Sonic has no clue that's actually Antoine's evil twin. He doesn't even have THAT as a reason to do this.)

Or had Sonic still openly pine for said ex-girlfriend even as he was dating another girl, for whom he damaged his friendship with his closest friend to be with... 

spacer.png

No sir ree, these are not the contemptible, sickening actions of a jackass. These are indeed the heroic actions of a character we are meant to like. And Penders most CERTAINLY did not illustrate his viewpoint of Sonic by painting him as someone who viewed girls more as entertainment and even painted his friendship with Tails as something more for the benefit of his own ego than anything...

http://mokat01.tripod.com/storeroom/edgy.txt

Oh wait, Penders totally wrote ALL of that.

Penders' particular vision for who Sonic is as a person is, frankly, disgusting. Fleetway Sonic isn't ideal in a lot of ways, but he still doesn't hold a candle to what Penders envisions for Sonic. 

And Shortfuse mentioning his origin constantly is a cakewalk compared to the endless pages spent on a vaguely omniscient council of grandpas arguing about what to do and then doing all of squat to actually move the plot forward in any meaningful way, to say nothing of Knuckles being led around his nose and doing precious little to actually resolve any of the conflicts he finds himself a part in. And the less said about things like Chaos Knuckles or M:25YL, the better. 

 

Yeah in that case his depection of sonic wasn’t perfect but in Fleetway, apparently he was cruel to tails and I think I read somewhere he had pulled a prank that made tails think he was dead but I can’t remember where I read it from

 

those criticisms you brought up are valid though I don’t think going to Fiona when tails liked her is less so if they did like each other and Fiona would have to tell him she didn’t share the feelings

 

sonics attitude in those comics made it easy to turn the whole of Mobius sans tails (and cream in one side story) against him in the online fan continuation

Plus i don’t think it’s easy to try and move on with someone else if there’s a part of you that likes your ex

 

but how he handled fake Antoine leaves to be desired I agree

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1 hour ago, Leebo4 said:

Yeah in that case his depection of sonic wasn’t perfect but in Fleetway, apparently he was cruel to tails and I think I read somewhere he had pulled a prank that made tails think he was dead but I can’t remember where I read it from

And striking up a romantic relationship with a girl Tails' liked ISN'T cruel to you? 

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those criticisms you brought up are valid though I don’t think going to Fiona when tails liked her is less so if they did like each other and Fiona would have to tell him she didn’t share the feelings

I don't think you actually understand the point I'm making. Sonic knew his friend had a crush on Fiona. He knew that pursuing a relationship with her- again, a relationship that was actually initiated by his Evil Twin masquerading as him- would very badly hurt Tails, as well as damage his friendship. The 'heart wanting what it wants' does not begin to excuse any of this, especially when his later actions (and Penders own statements on the matter) make it painfully clear that he was using, repeat, USING Fiona as a rebound girl. While viewing his best friends emotional well-being as being secondary to his own self-gratification. No, Tails was not in the right for having his stupid, creepy crush on Fiona, but that doesn't justify Sonic's actions, not even remotely. Especially since, again- this is a relationship initially formed by EVil Sonic's deception. It's screwed up on like a number of levels. 

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sonics attitude in those comics made it easy to turn the whole of Mobius sans tails (and cream in one side story) against him in the online fan continuation

Begging your pardon, but what happens in a fan-made continuation has very little bearing on any of this. We are talking about Penders writing, at the time he was writing, and the Fleetway interpretation of Sonic as shown in the comics printed by Fleetway. 

Quote

 

Plus i don’t think it’s easy to try and move on with someone else if there’s a part of you that likes your ex

but how he handled fake Antoine leaves to be desired I agree

 

No, it isn't easy. But retaining feelings for an ex is no excuse for what Sonic did. His actions towards Tails, Fiona and even Sally are nothing short of despicable, and that Penders thought any of it was a good idea for the main character of the book is just one more component of the vast tapestry illustrating his incompetence as a writer and at understanding even the most fundamental aspects of the general IDEA of Sonic. 

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I get want you mean, I admit most of my knowledhe about the comic from wikis and stuff and the few sonic paperbacks i have which is a few scattered volumes of sonic archives as well as the sonic select books and a few trades of the Ian Flynn days

 

was just makes a point that the online comic built on the terrible behaviour threat fleetway comic exhibited, I think I would prefer. Sonic who has occasional questionable decisions than one who is mostly a jerk from time to time

 

not saying Ken’s writing fo sonic will ever be the best depiction of him but to me this the lesser fo the two evils

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11 minutes ago, Leebo4 said:

I get want you mean, I admit most of my knowledhe about the comic from wikis and stuff and the few sonic paperbacks i have which is a few scattered volumes of sonic archives as well as the sonic select books and a few trades of the Ian Flynn days

 

was just makes a point that the online comic built on the terrible behaviour threat fleetway comic exhibited, I think I would prefer. Sonic who has occasional questionable decisions than one who is mostly a jerk from time to time

 

not saying Ken’s writing fo sonic will ever be the best depiction of him but to me this the lesser fo the two evils

We will have to agree to disagree, then. To put it bluntly I do not see it that way at all, but frankly I am not interested in going back and forth like this. 

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Respect your view on this

 

read somewhere that originally in the sally miniseries her mother was going to be the villain, anyone know the details of how that was supposed to play out in the story 

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Penders' Sonic is unintentionally pretty unlikeable at times (and some of his other characters like Sally as well) but I think some of these problems translate into other writers such as Ian as well, and not so much as just a leftover from what Penders has done as they seem to hope. Sonic isn't particularly the best character to translate into a very delicate 'reality ensues' dynamic that the Archie one has, he's a guy low on responsibilities, high on ego and regularly has problems accepting or learning from his mistakes. He shows off and is reckless about things that can seriously damage or even risk the lives of other people and then tries to laugh them off. Characters like Sally in many areas are Sonic but more priggish and hypocritical. It's very hard to make these sort of characters work in more weightful and realistic situations, especially in the comics case where the writers aren't exactly willing to play them off as a 'the bad guy' and have them accept consequences of what they've done most of the time. Even after Penders left, the decision to deal with Fiona was to....make her TURN EVIL so Sonic would look relatively good.

This is why I wasn't big on the comics trying these sort of soap opera plots (aside from the simple fact I hate soap operas to begin with), the writers didn't know how to write these tactfully so when they wanted to go back to stories about the heroes we all love it didn't mesh well.

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Now I'll admit I'm not big on Fleetway's version of Sonic as a character, same with how Hurst wrote him in SatAM and Underground, but I'd 100% take that over Penders version any day.

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I suppose to Fleetway's credit, their Sonic is SUPPOSED to act like a swine, so erm, mission accomplished?

He's not meant to be a well meaning guy who just has a hip attitude about him but just ends up looking like an egotistical ass whose enabled and beloved anyway. A lot of the time Fleetway Sonic is called out on the fact he's an asshole as such a dominating characteristic.

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It's not because it's "made for purpose" and that they "contrast his word with is action" that it make the character less of a jerk. The tropes of "but he only looks like a jerk : even if he insult people after that he do something heroic" is often for me the writing version of "but you know, IRL he is nice", to be a bit caricatural. Words are *actions* there isn't some kind of magical dichotomy between both. If you insult someone and belittle him, it's not because you saved his dog after that than you weren't an asshole when you insulted him.

It's not because some people like that kind of character (which isn't wrong in itself, because it can be interesting) that the concern of other about this persona become "stupids" instantly, especially how much Sonic can be *abusive* in his way of talking sometimes.

Though I recognize one big thing to Fleetway : at least they often show how bad it is. Even if I can really understand why some people dislike that, it's miles betters for me against how sometimes Sonic was shown as a jerk in Archie without any real callout, especially Penders who looks like he put all the cliché he had about "adolescents".

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48 minutes ago, Adamis said:

StC Sonic isn't the "biggest jerk ever", that's a stupid exageration made up by people who only read two pages of STC and called it a day.

 

Well, the biggest jerk ever I admit is an exaggeration, but i guess mean that their version of Sonic was definitely SUPPOSED to have a mean and annoying edge to him, while some other medias were just a result of playing that Totally Tubular Dude direction completely straight and being even more oblivious to how obnoxious it was than SEGA's marketing was.

There seem to be some of similar mindset though. :P

tumblr_nrm2u2gQ711uouf1fo1_640.gifv

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1 hour ago, Adamis said:

StC Sonic isn't the "biggest jerk ever", that's a stupid exageration made up by people who only read two pages of STC and called it a day.

 

For the sake of argument, being the biggest jerk is still leagues better than the stuff he faced given Fleetway’s atmosphere.

Fleetway Sonic is a bit more abrasive than I’d like from the character. Now Super Sonic  on the other hand was definitely the biggest jerk ever.

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16 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I-uh-wha-erm

Ken, you did not create the continuity that came after your run. Ian Flynn built the majority of it. Even during what you created - Bollers also built a lot of it, as did Gallagher. You can't just take a non-relevant continuity and say "oh yeah, I have legal ownership to this since SEGA/Archie won't ". That ain't how it works.

Keep in mind that Penders, evidently, views FLynn's work as a separate continuity from whatever the hell it is he is doing... or something, I've honestly lost track of his excuses and justifications by this point. All I wonder now is how long it will be until he blocks THIS guy for pointing out the Unfortunate Truths that interfere with Penders' personal narrative. 

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Just now, horridus said:

Keep in mind that Penders, evidently, views FLynn's work as a separate continuity from whatever the hell it is he is doing... or something, I've honestly lost track of his excuses and justifications by this point. All I wonder now is how long it will be until he blocks THIS guy for pointing out the Unfortunate Truths that interfere with Penders' personal narrative. 

Apparently not since he intends to have everything from Flynn's era to be canon to the new future (likely to try grab any Archie Sonic fans who want a continuation of Ian's work)

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Just now, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Apparently not since he intends to have everything from Flynn's era to be canon to the new future (likely to try grab any Archie Sonic fans who want a continuation of Ian's work)

If, repeat, IF I remember correctly, he said that the Flynn stuff happened, but what happens in LAra-Su Chronicles is actually divergent from that. He called it 'FLynn Mobius' or some shit. That said, its a pretty transparent attempt to try and cast as wide a net as possible regarding the audience, as you said. Either way though, his logic remains, as always, Less-Than-Stellar. 

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3 minutes ago, horridus said:

If, repeat, IF I remember correctly, he said that the Flynn stuff happened, but what happens in LAra-Su Chronicles is actually divergent from that. He called it 'FLynn Mobius' or some shit. That said, its a pretty transparent attempt to try and cast as wide a net as possible regarding the audience, as you said. Either way though, his logic remains, as always, Less-Than-Stellar. 

I could be wrong, but the preview already makes explicit reference to the Flynn!Canon - Lara-Su mentions having dreams of a different life, only for a reset button to be pressed - referencing the Super Genesis Wave from Archie Sonic. 

Which IIRC - he did mention before this was his attempt to "split" the continuities, but it still happened and ties directly to Ian's run. On top of that, his statements have taken a shift from "I'm going to make a pocket universe" to "I'm using everything, including Ian's run". Which is already evident and contradictory to past mentions - he's mentioned planning to use Scourge. Not Evil Sonic, Scourge. Which implies Scourge's design more or less ripped from Archie Sonic, likely because it saves Penders the hard work of having to differentiate him from Sonic. The redesign work, and renaming has already happened, so now he thinks he can have his cake and eat it too - he can claim that this popular villain from Ian is in the comic, while also claiming that it "has nothing to do with Sonic". 

Penders can keep claiming it'll be a pocket universe, but it's already clearly evident to me that he intends to ride Ian's coattails to draw fans to the book, maybe because on some level, he knows that he's a hated figure in the Sonic fandom, and he might have a better chance if he claims Ian's creations are present in TL-SC. The fact he plans to just lift Scourge and place him into the series already proves to me that it won't be as simple as a pocket universe, he'll be grabbing whatever he wants from Ian's continuity to use.

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