Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 hour ago, Leebo4 said:

I like Mogul as he is my fave Archie Sonic villain but I thought Scott failed when he tried to get the same copyright protection for his characters

Scott’s lawsuit was based on Archie’s royalties, reprints and a bunch of other shit with zero evidence that ended up getting thrown out of court, aided by him attempting to drag irrelevant companies into the lawsuit too, all it meant was Archie owed him no money for reprints. 

A side effect of Ken’s lawsuit on the other hand is that all writers on the comic automatically got the rights to their characters back, because if Archie couldn’t provide the contracts to prove Penders’ characters was owned by them, then they couldn’t provide contracts for anyone else either.

The only likely exception is Ian, who worked for Archie and likely had his contract reevaluated to reflect the court battle, but Ian IIRC also said during the court battle that he believed SEGA and Archie automatically got rights to characters for use in this licensed book when they were created which like - yeah, you’d assume that’s the natural assumption. I also believe this was a reason Penders also has so much spite against Ian for “being on Archie’s side” during the lawsuit. I might be incorrect on this as it was years ago and I can’t remember exactly if this was the case, so someone can correct me if I’m wrong.

Anyways, as a result, all previous writers have rights to their characters barring Ian, where Archie seem to own them (if the redesign of the FF being owned by Archie is any indication).

So yes, nothing legally stops Fulop from creating a series, as long as he divorces the Sonic aspects from it, but the question is WHY would you make a series on someone who is literally a boring combo of the Kingpin and Vandal Savage as a mammoth. No one gave a fuck who Mammoth Mogul was until Ian got his hands on him and introduced new aspects to him such as the Ixis Magicks, and a casino owner.

And let’s face it, Ian basically proved he could do Mogul even better when he introduced Breezie in Post Reboot Archie, who basically fulfilled the same purpose as Mogul pre-reboot, so to say he’s pretty valueless here is a understatement. As others said, before Ian came in, Mammoth was basically just a boring villain who farted around and tried to steal others’ powers.

Shock of horrors, when you introduce a overpowered villain with a chaos emerald embedded in him, there isn’t much you can do other than bullshitting reasons why he couldn’t wipe the floor with everyone. Ian was smart when he basically had Mammoth take himself off the playing field, and tell Sonic that he just has to wait his enemies out until they die, so why bother? 

But to say that Fulop is delusional that this will kick off is an understatement. It’s hard to believe there’s someone more delusional than Penders when it came to thinking anyone cares about their knockoff Sonic characters to support a whole series with them, but here we are.

I’d love to know why so many former Archie Sonic writers are so utterly delusional as to think people have heaps upon heaps of support for these random ass characters from a 90s Sonic comic that was only widely available in the US, and of which - again shock of horrors - people bought these comics because of Sonic the Hedgehog. No one bought these comics for the continuing adventures of Julie-Su, Lara-SU, Locke, Mammoth Mougl, or the Fearsome Four. They bought them for Sonic the Hedgehog, and his cast of characters.

I have characters I really like in this comic, like Mina Mongoose, but I’m not biting my teeth in utter hopelessness and anticipation that she and Ash will get a stand-alone comic. The idea these creators genuinely think these comics had that kind of impact to launch off their weird OCs into superstar status, worthy of comics, books, animated shows, and movies is delusional at best, and absolutely concerning at worst.

[SBR2]

Y'know what's the worst thing? Scott and Ken are buddies so there's a very real possibility of crossover between the continuing adventures of Mammoth Mogul and the Lara-Su Chronicles. God have mercy on us all.

[Zaysho]

3 hours ago, Ryannumber1Santa said:

I have characters I really like in this comic, like Mina Mongoose, but I’m not biting my teeth in utter hopelessness and anticipation that she and Ash will get a stand-alone comic. The idea these creators genuinely think these comics had that kind of impact to launch off their weird OCs into superstar status, worthy of comics, books, animated shows, and movies is delusional at best, and absolutely concerning at worst.

The irony here is that Bollers actually made a career for himself and doesn't need to even bother with trying to cash in on Sonic. If anything I think I heard he was surprised that the lawsuit led to the removal of his characters?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

5 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

The irony here is that Bollers actually made a career for himself and doesn't need to even bother with trying to cash in on Sonic. If anything I think I heard he was surprised that the lawsuit led to the removal of his characters?

Pretty much, yeah. He’d long since moved on to bigger and better things, not only writing award winning series, but becoming a full on editor (he’s the senior editor of Valiant Comics). 

I’m nearly sure Bollers only found out he owned them because someone asked him about the status of Mina and such. Out of anyone, Bollers would probably allow usage of his cast, I’d imagine, it’s just Penders basically burnt any bridges with SEGA to allow that to happen. Ironically, given I’d say some of Bollers’ characters are the best ones who arguably became popular because of Sonic.

[horridus]

4 hours ago, Ryannumber1Santa said:

I’d love to know why so many former Archie Sonic writers are so utterly delusional as to think people have heaps upon heaps of support for these random ass characters from a 90s Sonic comic that was only widely available in the US, and of which - again shock of horrors - people bought these comics because of Sonic the Hedgehog. No one bought these comics for the continuing adventures of Julie-Su, Lara-SU, Locke, Mammoth Mougl, or the Fearsome Four. They bought them for Sonic the Hedgehog, and his cast of characters.

In fairness, at this stage it's just Penders and Fulop. As mentioned, everyone else has either moved on to better things (Bollers) or just plain isn't talking about anything pertaining to the trial or to Sonic at all. In this particular case, it makes certain amount of sense- Penders has long claimed Fulop as a close friend of his, even naming his new character human character Myhkal Taelor in part after Fulop's pseudonym of Kent Taylor. I guess we ultimately shouldn't be surprised that they have THIS much in common. Birds of a feather and all that. 

 

 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

6 minutes ago, horridus said:

In fairness, at this stage it's just Penders and Fulop. As mentioned, everyone else has either moved on to better things (Bollers) or just plain isn't talking about anything pertaining to the trial or to Sonic at all. In this particular case, it makes certain amount of sense- Penders has long claimed Fulop as a close friend of his, even naming his new character human character Myhkal Taelor in part after Fulop's pseudonym of Kent Taylor. I guess we ultimately shouldn't be surprised that they have THIS much in common. Birds of a feather and all that.

I mean, it goes without saying it’s not all of them. To be fair, I know there’s a lot more, but my mind tends to only think about Gallagher, Penders, Bollers, Fulop, and Flynn.

That said, I should’ve clarified I meant Archie staff, not writers specifically. It’s just two former writers having these delusions is a weird trend.

[Zaysho]

I'm honestly expecting these two will be collaborating if not form their own collective for publishing and promoting their work down the line.

[Zonic 2099]

I don't know Ken, some of these out of print graphic novels aren't exactly being sold at a reasonable price second hand
.I honestly pity any child who wants to start collecting Archie Sonic this late into the game. I can only imagine their collection would consist of randomly numbered Archives and maybe a couple of the latter issues. In comparison IDW Sonic is not only cheaper but the whole story is accessible.

[The Tenth Doctor]

"Our work". Yeah like anyone else's work mattered to him. 

[SBR2]

56 minutes ago, Zonic 2099 said:

I don't know Ken, some of these out of print graphic novels aren't exactly being sold at a reasonable price second hand
.I honestly pity any child who wants to start collecting Archie Sonic this late into the game. I can only imagine their collection would consist of randomly numbered Archives and maybe a couple of the latter issues. In comparison IDW Sonic is not only cheaper but the whole story is accessible.

Ok...does he think Archie's still printing these? There's no fucking way he's so out of the loop he doesn't understand the basic concept of "Archie can't print graphic novels of a license they no longer have".

[Guergy]

It is a lot easier to borrow them from your library than it is to buy them from Ebay, and even then, they may not have very issue. I know it is true for me. 

[AlienBunny]

More than likely kids are reading Archie Sonic free on a site than buying paperbacks. Easier to access. Easier to find all issues.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 minute ago, AlienBunny said:

More than likely kids are reading Archie Sonic free on a site than buying paperbacks. Easier to access. Easier to find all issues.

I think even at that, he's vastly overestimating how many kids are interested in Archie Sonic.

I'd in fact be willing to be he's talking absolute crap, the same way he talks absolute crap when he talks about Archie Sonic being some kind of worldwide cultural smash hit even though it was literally only known in the US.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

On 12/10/2020 at 8:14 AM, Ryannumber1Santa said:

Anyways, as a result, all previous writers have rights to their characters barring Ian, where Archie seem to own them (if the redesign of the FF being owned by Archie is any indication).

Wait...so that’s one of the reasons why there are legal reasons preventing their use?

Yes, I’m behind. I only make peeks in this topic every few months or so, so feel free to catch me up to speed on what I need to know cuz I only checked the last page regarding Mammoth Mogul getting a series—which I too find ridiculous and just killed any interest I had left in the character beyond pre-reboot.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Wait...so that’s one of the reasons why there are legal reasons preventing their use?

Yes, I’m behind. I only make peeks in this topic every few months or so, so feel free to catch me up to speed on what I need to know cuz I only checked the last page regarding Mammoth Mogul getting a series—which I too find ridiculous and just killed any interest I had left in the character beyond pre-reboot.

For pre-reboot characters not made by Ian - yes. That was confirmed.

For post-reboot characters made by Ian - it's likely yes, because Archie owns the redesigned Freedom Fighters, so it stands to reason they own the characters created by Ian as well.

For the Freedom Fighters themselves - SEGA still own the rights to them, so they can still be used. The issue is Archie owns the post-reboot designs, so they'd have to either use the SatAM/Pre-Reboot designs, or redesign them altogether again.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 minutes ago, Ryannumber1Santa said:

For pre-reboot characters not made by Ian - yes. That was confirmed.

For post-reboot characters made by Ian - it's likely yes, because Archie owns the redesigned Freedom Fighters, so it stands to reason they own the characters created by Ian as well.

For the Freedom Fighters themselves - SEGA still own the rights to them, so they can still be used. The issue is Archie owns the post-reboot designs, so they'd have to either use the SatAM/Pre-Reboot designs, or redesign them altogether again.

I’m down for another redesign then. Ian’s team knocked it out of the park with their Post-Reboot designs and still kept the spirit of the characters, so I’d be ecstatic to see an IDW design of them if the time ever came.

Also might be a stupid question, but that also cover the Egg Bosses too being under Archie’s grip? I figured they’d be owned by Sega regardless.

Also, regarding Penders design of echidnas...it’s not that hard to fucking commission someone to design your characters for you if you’re lacking the artistic skill. If Penders is somehow keeping this whole train running for as long as he has, he could’ve simply made a rough sketch and pay someone to make improvements and better yet make it more distinct and different from Sonic. I don’t know if I’m beating a dead horse here, but practically any sane person would’ve gone that route instead.

[Silvereyes]

I find all the talk about rights very interesting. I do find it a little funny though how Archie can hold the rights to a certain design of the Freedom Fighters, but not the characters they are attached too. It'd be like, I dunno, Sally gets a special prom dress for a single issue, and that Archie would have to be commissioned if Sega wanted to put Sally in a game, and use that prom dress as an unlockable costume.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Well, there was that whole thing with Knuckles' hat...

[horridus]

11 hours ago, Silvereyes said:

I find all the talk about rights very interesting. I do find it a little funny though how Archie can hold the rights to a certain design of the Freedom Fighters, but not the characters they are attached too. It'd be like, I dunno, Sally gets a special prom dress for a single issue, and that Archie would have to be commissioned if Sega wanted to put Sally in a game, and use that prom dress as an unlockable costume.

From what I've heard, SEGA's copyrights are a weird, tangled web woven by a drunken spider when it comes to their spinoff stuff. For example, due to UK law? All the characters made for the Fleetway Sonic comic that weren't originally game characters belong to the people who made them. Jon Grey and Archie got into a bit of trouble with SEGA for sneaking a cameo of Fleetway characters Tekno, Ebony and Shortfuse into crowd scenes in one issue, and likewise Bollers got into a spot of trouble for having a brief cameo of the OVA setting. Heck, part of the reason why that one explorer skin of Knuckles for Dash got such a big reception? Is because up until then it was presumed that that HAT was off-limits because technically, it belonged to the company that had made the OVA. This is also one of the reasons you never saw any of the Sonic X exclusive characters migrating over into the Archie book- technically speaking, Chris and Bocoe and Decoe and so forth are owned by the company that made Sonic X. 

Well, that and SEGA being disinterested in such inter-franchise cross pollination. Its why Cream and Cheese and Vanilla didn't appear for so long. 

Take note that this is all stuff I've *heard*. I'm not an expert, and my info doesn't come from super duper insiders. But this is something that I've consistently heard enough times for it to become clear to me that SEGA's copyrights aren't really as cut and dry as we'd like to assume. And that the nature of copyright is weird enough that Penders can evidently own something as clearly derivative as characters called 'Evil Sonic' and 'Robo Robotnik'. 

Granted, Penders' situation is unique, and for all the wrong reasons... 

[Dr. Detective]

This thread is 423 pages long and almost 7 years old and issue 1 hasn't been released yet.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

16 hours ago, horridus said:

From what I've heard, SEGA's copyrights are a weird, tangled web woven by a drunken spider when it comes to their spinoff stuff. For example, due to UK law? All the characters made for the Fleetway Sonic comic that weren't originally game characters belong to the people who made them. Jon Grey and Archie got into a bit of trouble with SEGA for sneaking a cameo of Fleetway characters Tekno, Ebony and Shortfuse into crowd scenes in one issue, and likewise Bollers got into a spot of trouble for having a brief cameo of the OVA setting. Heck, part of the reason why that one explorer skin of Knuckles for Dash got such a big reception? Is because up until then it was presumed that that HAT was off-limits because technically, it belonged to the company that had made the OVA. This is also one of the reasons you never saw any of the Sonic X exclusive characters migrating over into the Archie book- technically speaking, Chris and Bocoe and Decoe and so forth are owned by the company that made Sonic X.

What I love about this headache inducing copyright stuff isn't just  what a complicated dangerous minefield it is that even quick cameo's get you into trouble, but equally how easy it is to dodge the copyright laws by changing minor details.
Would make me want to deliberatly use elements from all spin offs if I managed to get hired as an official Sega artist. Y'know, in an alternative dimension where pigs fly and hell is frozen over.

No no, this isn't Tekno, it's Tehkno. Look, she wears a hat, this "Tekno" character I never heard of didn't.
Eggman Nega? No no, it's Eggman Naugat. He's from an alternative candy dimension. Look, his mustache's shade of grey is one tone lighter then the other's.
What, I used the OVA's setting of Sonic's island? No no sir, look, this island also wears a hat, it's an entirely different location. Bye now.

Copyright laws are dumb. I would easily sail by every copyright law just on the merrit of being a terribly sloppy artist.
"Brilliant, you escaped copyright by cleverly pretending to have spelling mistakes and get the name wrong!"
Uhh, yes, "cleverly pretending", jup, that's what I did. I'm clever.
Maybe that's why Sega's so easy going on fan projects. Curses, this fangame cleverly used a different shade of Blue for Sonic, they outwitted us again!

[AlienBunny]

Is there sources on this? Because that doesn't sound right. Are we sure Archie owns copyright over some designs? 

I know that you can get a license to create for that company, to use their copyrights...

Sonic the Animation and Sonic X was still made under a studio owned by a parent company Sega Sammy Holdings. So SEGA still had copyright there. However, I don't know if Japan's copyrights system works the same as the US. Don't forget Sonic Boom and Archie making a comic for that too.

Ken Penders.. I'm not sure about the whole Evil Sonic situation. I don't think he's a derivative work, nor count as fair use. Copyright doesn't cover vague concepts like name and ideas like evil. Only the design could be copyrighted and his stories. Maybe for Archie, derivative, but again, a license is different...

Here's legalzoom; https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/what-are-derivative-works-under-copyright-law

Copyright collective works; https://copyright.gov/circs/circ34.pdf

This talks about licensing though I'm not sure if it's completely handy. https://copyright.gov/circs/circ34.pdf

[Scritch the Cat]

I’m pretty sure SEGA has the right to declare, ahead of time, in a contract, that any creation in a Sonic product belongs to them; such a declaration would presumably also include what and how a thing’s creators get paid.  Whether SEGA actually has arranged such things in advance for all possible Sonic products seems more vague.  But it must have gotten somewhat stricter after the fracas with Penders.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

When Hasbro had Marvel making Transformers comics, it was stipulated that any character which debuted in the pages of the book became Hasbro's property. This is why they skirted that with Death's Head and Circuit Breaker by having them appear in other stories before being introduced in Transformers.

(Which also led to confusion/debate as to whether Transformers was part of the main Marvel Universe, but that's another matter.)

So yeah, SEGA probably could have, but apparently no one in the video game business of the '90s knew or cared enough about how to write a contract so that someone else wouldn't retain ownership that would gum things up for decades to come. Hence why Geno belongs to Square Enix and Capcom does sweet eff all with Slam Masters and possibly Rival Schools.

[SBR2]

18 hours ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

When Hasbro had Marvel making Transformers comics, it was stipulated that any character which debuted in the pages of the book became Hasbro's property. This is why they skirted that with Death's Head and Circuit Breaker by having them appear in other stories before being introduced in Transformers.

Is that what happened? I thought it was the other way around and Marvel had full copyright to any original characters introduced?