Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Ryannumber1gamer]

13 minutes ago, SkullPirateMike said:

God, I keep thinking about this. I've been a Sonic fan since 1991, played every game except Boom and Free Riders, watched every episode of all the shows... but in Ken's paragraph of characters he's opening up licensing rights for, I've heard of exactly two of them. Geoffrey and Scourge. And I only know about them from the internet. It really hammers home how niche his stuff is, and how oblivious to that he is. Those comics were only available in North America. By the time comic stores here in the UK started importing them, his characters were already long dead, and with each passing year the portion of the fanbase who remember them gets smaller.

Back around when Ken blocked me (for pointing out the UK comics did technologically-advanced echidnas years before he did), he kept saying he was able to sue Sega for Shade and the Nocturnus Clan because they were clearly derivative of his characters, but... does he really not realise that argument works against him, too? He's really here arguing that Evil Sonic isn't derivative of Sonic in any way? It's baffling.

He wasn’t even able to sue for Shade and the Nocturnus. He won the case against Archie, he didn’t win the case against SEGA IIRC. I’m pretty sure SEGA can still use both, but as Ian has said - they aren’t worth the trouble of dealing with Penders yet again for the umpteenth time.

[SkullPirateMike]

2 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

He wasn’t even able to sue for Shade and the Nocturnus. He won the case against Archie, he didn’t win the case against SEGA IIRC. I’m pretty sure SEGA can still use both, but as Ian has said - they aren’t worth the trouble of dealing with Penders yet again for the umpteenth time.

Oh yeah, I'm well aware. I was just repeating what Ken told me himself, but I'm fully aware he's delusional. That's why I was pointing out to him that STC had already done tech-using echidnas, he was insisting he created the concept and was saying he could sue Paramount if they went in that direction in the movies.

[Mega]

Don't you just love how when I called Ken out on how he owes his legacy to the existence of the SatAM show, he just ignored it? Lol.

He wants to hold onto this idea that he's this grand influence on the history of the Sonic franchise when the show gave him a foundation for all of his really lackluster ideas and concepts.

I'm surprised he didn't true to argue, though. You'd think he'd come up with, "WELL, THE SHOW ONLY LASTED TWO YEARS! AND _MY_ IDEAS WERE BETTER/MORE REALISTIC."

[King Scoopa Koopa]

If "Floating Island Productions" had a licensing/marketing department with staff, I imagine it would be something like this.

[antyep]

Heh heh heh heh. Clowns are funny. And so is Penders’ bad writing and art.

[SBR2]

I was hearing he apparently does have someonewho wants to licenseout 3 charactersand honestly I'm betting it's Scott Folup wanting some of them for his Comic Superstar Mammoth Mogul TM series.

[SkullPirateMike]

Yeah, he also confirmed that his offer really was $10,000 per character, because he's saying that if someone licenses a character, that character is off the table for anyone else.

[Zaysho]

Joke's on him. I can make unlicensed Scourge art out of spite.

[Rabid-Coot]

i kinda don't expect things to go anywhere but it'll be amazing if drawing up terms to be spitful over a podcast finally makes this whole thing pay off.

[Nestor]

19 hours ago, SkullPirateMike said:

Back around when Ken blocked me (for pointing out the UK comics did technologically-advanced echidnas years before he did), he kept saying he was able to sue Sega for Shade and the Nocturnus Clan because they were clearly derivative of his characters, but... does he really not realise that argument works against him, too? He's really here arguing that Evil Sonic isn't derivative of Sonic in any way? It's baffling.

The irony is that, unlike Evil Sonic - who is literally Sonic in a leather jacket and shades but 'evil' - Shade and the Nocturnus really weren't derivative of his work; Shade's look, personality and backstory are completely different as well as her lacking the romance subplot that was the reason for Julie-Su's existence, while the Nocturnus's look and backstory is radically different from that of the Dark Legion - there's no Dmitri analogue, no chaos siphon accident, no Enerjak, no banning technology moral panic, no cultic tech worship, no cybernetic body replacements, no Brotherhood of Guardians, and the Nocturnus are their own civilisation, not a cult within an existing one.

Outside of incredibly broad concepts like 'being female', 'using technology' and 'turning good', the only inspiration they truly drew from his work was the getting stuck in an alternate dimension called the Twilight [blank] plot point, and even that works radically differently to Ken's version, both in terms of what it is / how it works and why they're there in the first place.

Ken's argument that this is somehow infringing his work instead of a nod to it is also a bit shaky when you consider his Twilight Zone is quite obviously inspired by the Phantom Zone, with his Knuckles story drawing a lot of parallels to Superman 2's plot (evil criminals sealed away in the past, accident releases them, last son of extinct race going to fight them....).

[Promethean0416]

Well, this interview with Screen Rant just came out a few hours ago:

 

https://screenrant.com/ken-penders-sonic-comics-lara-su-chronicles-interview/?utm_content=buffer18b9a&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_source=SR-TW&utm_campaign=SR-TW

[The Tenth Doctor]

Quote

I’m also not bitter about Archie or our legal fight. You’ll find me anything but.

Say that to Ian Flynn who you keep bullying every 5 minutes.

Quote

I’m hoping my story inspires the next generation to do their own thing as opposed to playing in someone else’s sandbox.

Yeah using a Sonic in a biker jacket and a Knuckles with a beard is your own thing.

Overall the interviewer is way too fair to Penders. The first paragraphs set him up exactly as Penders says, which as we all know, is as a GOD OF SONIC. Really really not worth reading, says its launching at Comic Con 2022 though. Thats when the lawsuits begin (it doesn't mention how Ken does not own the rights to print stories with Sonic in it, just says he is printing 20 years later again).

[Rabbitearsblog]

12 minutes ago, The Tenth Doctor said:

Say that to Ian Flynn who you keep bullying every 5 minutes.

Yeah using a Sonic in a biker jacket and a Knuckles with a beard is your own thing.

Overall the interviewer is way too fair to Penders. The first paragraphs set him up exactly as Penders says, which as we all know, is as a GOD OF SONIC. Really really not worth reading, says its launching at Comic Con 2022 though. Thats when the lawsuits begin (it doesn't mention how Ken does not own the rights to print stories with Sonic in it, just says he is printing 20 years later again).

I'm interested in seeing the audience's reactions to his works.

[SkyHorizon]

Hey there, relatively new user here. Just wanted to add my opinion in the mix.

I've read the "interview", if you can call it this way (totally non-objective in my opinion, but whatever...) and one thing hit me more than anything.

Penders said: "This is due to the fact that a lot of Sonic fans are autistic and they interact with others to varying degrees but we don’t necessarily know they’re autistic until we spend time getting to know them. I've interacted with several autistic fans for many years and the common attraction for them regarding Sonic are the bright colors and fast action. (...) By establishing Salma as autistic, we get to learn the parts of her she kept hidden, sometimes successfully, sometimes less so, disastrously so."

Now, aside from the fact that this looks like "HEY, LOOK HERE, I ABSOLUTELY WANT TO ATTRACT AUTISTIC PEOPLE" and the fact that Penders does not have the sensitivity to write such a subject, I'm the only one that find it quite offensive? I mean, I'm not autistic, but if I was I'd think that this is absolutely condescending and derogatory, something between "you have a good chance to be autistic if you like Sonic" and "autistic people are simple-minded people who are just attracted by flashy colors".

Somehow, I even got the feeling that he want to insinuate that people who dislike him are autistic and, considering that it's pretty evident that he consider them inferior or some bs like that (despite him saying otherwise), it would be a way to delegitimate them. Then again, the guy isn't well known for subtlety, so maybe I'm just imagining things... really interested to hear other people opinions, though.

[Chubzhac]

Quote

I’m hoping my story inspires the next generation to do their own thing as opposed to playing in someone else’s sandbox. I never saw Sonic as playing in someone else’s sandbox because Sonic didn’t exist when I began working in comics. I didn’t grow up with the character the way today’s kids did. From my point of view, I was one of the players building the sandbox others wanted to play in.

The Archie Sonic comic was based off of a video game cartoon with it's own established story and characters and Ken himself spent years going around boasting and lying that Ben Hurst "passed the torch to him" in regards to the comic being the true continuation of SatAm. The Lara-Su Chronicles can be best described as Ken's fanfiction about Knuckles' future daughter and he's been doing everything he can to make sure the book ties into the Sonic franchise as closely as legally possible instead of reworking it into something original so that he can use the association as a crutch to boost sales.

 

[horridus]

1 hour ago, SkyHorizon said:

Now, aside from the fact that this looks like "HEY, LOOK HERE, I ABSOLUTELY WANT TO ATTRACT AUTISTIC PEOPLE" and the fact that Penders does not have the sensitivity to write such a subject, I'm the only one that find it quite offensive? I mean, I'm not autistic, but if I was I'd think that this is absolutely condescending and derogatory, something between "you have a good chance to be autistic if you like Sonic" and "autistic people are simple-minded people who are just attracted by flashy colors".

Somehow, I even got the feeling that he want to insinuate that people who dislike him are autistic and, considering that it's pretty evident that he consider them inferior or some bs like that (despite him saying otherwise), it would be a way to delegitimate them. Then again, the guy isn't well known for subtlety, so maybe I'm just imagining things... really interested to hear other people opinions, though.

Oh, it absolutely is condescending and derogatory. It's par the course for Penders- the guy desperately, and I mean DESPERATELY wants to be seen as some kind of accepting uber-progressive, but he just can't hide how narrow minded he really is. This is a guy who essentially tried to kill off one of the female cast (Lupe) in a book supposedly dedicated to the female cast (Girls Rule), and his explanation for doing this was to show that 'even a female could make the ultimate sacrifice'. It's kind of his thing by this point- he's a feminist who undermines his female characters, an anti-monarchist who obsesses over the trappings of monarchy, and proudly embraces multi-culturalism while making the fixation of his written works a mono-cultural clone of the USA. All while demanding the world praise him and respect him as The Most Liberal Of Liberals Ever. 

Aaand yeah, pretty much. Or at least, if not flat out autistic, then criminally stupid and misinformed. Penders reacts to anyone contradicting or taking issue with him as a personal affront to his person, and it really doesn't matter how minor or major the act in question ins- the moment you start opposing Penders' viewpoint on something, you're pretty much his enemy. He lives in a world where the only opinions worth respecting are the ones that benefit him, personally, and can't really seem to comprehend the idea that anyone could have any legitimate reasons to be against him at any level. 

[CertifiedNobody]

2 hours ago, horridus said:

Oh, it absolutely is condescending and derogatory. It's par the course for Penders- the guy desperately, and I mean DESPERATELY wants to be seen as some kind of accepting uber-progressive, but he just can't hide how narrow minded he really is. This is a guy who essentially tried to kill off one of the female cast (Lupe) in a book supposedly dedicated to the female cast (Girls Rule), and his explanation for doing this was to show that 'even a female could make the ultimate sacrifice'. It's kind of his thing by this point- he's a feminist who undermines his female characters,

TBH I don't think there's anything wrong with having a female character make a big sacrifice in a story starring the female characters, but knowing Penders, he probably tried to pull it off in a way that showed little respect for the character and undermined the value of the actual sacrifice repeatedly.

[horridus]

23 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

TBH I don't think there's anything wrong with having a female character make a big sacrifice in a story starring the female characters, but knowing Penders, he probably tried to pull it off in a way that showed little respect for the character and undermined the value of the actual sacrifice repeatedly.

There isn't, on paper. But when your precise logic implies that a woman doing such a thing is some king of bare minimum, that's where it gets troublesome. That 'even' makes all the difference. 

The fact the rest of the special mostly failed in its objective doesn't help either.

Edit: To elaborate, as I wrote this out at work and as such didn't have time to explain it better-

When you frame someone/something as 'even' being capable of something, you're immediately implying it as being deficient or lackluster in some fashion while the deed they commit is of some sort of basline that 'even' they can do it. It's like, oh, "Carl is a filthy drunk, but even HE can hold a job". In phrasing it the way he did, Penders basically made that entire story *deeply* insulting even without the context. 

[KingMario05]

Autist here (i.e. the guy Penders wants to pander to). Having read the interview, I actually kinda want him to sue over Prime... if only so Sega, now backed by the might of Netflix's lawyers, can finally take him to the cleaners and end this bullshit FOR GOOD.

Spoiler

Might actually be the entire reason as to why Prime exists in the first place, lol.

Also, the fact that he calls Sonic fans autistic for liking the franchise's emphasis on colors and action is real fucking rich, considering that he's he's the one who loaded up the comic with a bunch of half-baked Star Trek references only a man his age could get. (And not even that, considering that - at his peak in the early 2000s - Trek was kinda in a downward spiral.) So, yeah... projection much, Pendejo?

[Shaddy Zaphod]

10 hours ago, horridus said:

Oh, it absolutely is condescending and derogatory. It's par the course for Penders- the guy desperately, and I mean DESPERATELY wants to be seen as some kind of accepting uber-progressive, but he just can't hide how narrow minded he really is. This is a guy who essentially tried to kill off one of the female cast (Lupe) in a book supposedly dedicated to the female cast (Girls Rule), and his explanation for doing this was to show that 'even a female could make the ultimate sacrifice'. It's kind of his thing by this point- he's a feminist who undermines his female characters, an anti-monarchist who obsesses over the trappings of monarchy, and proudly embraces multi-culturalism while making the fixation of his written works a mono-cultural clone of the USA. All while demanding the world praise him and respect him as The Most Liberal Of Liberals Ever.

If he weren't a real person, you could make the case that it's a biting satire of liberalism from a leftist perspective, really.

I mean, I already do that, since he claims to be all about "creators rights" but abuses the already-corrupt copyright law to try and take ownership of ideas, which cannot actually be owned, but still.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

See the dangerous thing about Ken Penders is just how deluded he is on this matter.

Ever since that trial, he's had the delusion that he's some heroic figure. A representative of the little guy fighting back against the big bad companies for their rights and all that blah, blah blah.

So, it comes as no surprise that he'd spout derogatory babble thinking it's completely progressive.

In his mind, he's done no wrong, and anyone who takes issue with his actions indirectly dooming old characters, must be out of their gourds for fathoming such a thing.

Which comes off as ironic, given talk of him potentially sabotaging stuff like the Sonic SATAM show getting a proper sendoff movie or whatnot, in favor of his own project.

And yet, no, in his mind, he has done no wrong, and ya'll should just pony up those tens of thousands of dollars for "his" characters,

[SkyHorizon]

11 hours ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

See the dangerous thing about Ken Penders is just how deluded he is on this matter.

Ever since that trial, he's had the delusion that he's some heroic figure. A representative of the little guy fighting back against the big bad companies for their rights and all that blah, blah blah.

So, it comes as no surprise that he'd spout derogatory babble thinking it's completely progressive.

In his mind, he's done no wrong, and anyone who takes issue with his actions indirectly dooming old characters, must be out of their gourds for fathoming such a thing.

Which comes off as ironic, given talk of him potentially sabotaging stuff like the Sonic SATAM show getting a proper sendoff movie or whatnot, in favor of his own project.

And yet, no, in his mind, he has done no wrong, and ya'll should just pony up those tens of thousands of dollars for "his" characters,

You know, I've always thought that Penders should actually be thankful to Ian for making his boring and dull characters interesting and likeable. I don't think fans of Pre-Flynn Geoffrey exist, though, fans of Ixis-Geoffrey actually do. Same thing with Scourge and a lot of others.

If he had just shut up, nowadays he would probably be remembered as someone who introduced a lot of interesting characters (despite not really having a part in making them interesting) instead of being considered a total failure as a writer.

[Zonic 2099]

1 hour ago, SkyHorizon said:

If he had just shut up, nowadays he would probably be remembered as someone who introduced a lot of interesting characters (despite not really having a part in making them interesting) instead of being considered a total failure as a writer.

The problem isn't necessarily his speaking up so much as his bitterness, greed and overestimating the value of his works that made his demands unreasonable.  Rather than asking for royalties in exchange for signing back all his works he tried scamming two companies into giving him a movie and some control over the comic among other things.

 

[Leebo4]

I think Ken should be given some credit for his work on the comics

 

for better or for worst he did take the comic in the direction of the tone of the satam show with ambitious mythology, ideas and taking it seriously

 

you can contest the quality or execution but I honestly doubt if he didn’t take it in the direction he did, the comic would be the long runner it became

most comic writers back then working on a tie in comic especially a video game one wouldn’t have put in the effort he did in trying to expand the universe

[horridus]

16 hours ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

If he weren't a real person, you could make the case that it's a biting satire of liberalism from a leftist perspective, really.

I mean, I already do that, since he claims to be all about "creators rights" but abuses the already-corrupt copyright law to try and take ownership of ideas, which cannot actually be owned, but still.

I've long said that if you tried to describe Penders to people who weren't familiar with him, they'd have a hard time believing he's real. If he were a character in a work of fiction people would call him over the top and unbelievable. Man's a living caricature, and a deeply unflattering one at that. 

4 hours ago, SkyHorizon said:

You know, I've always thought that Penders should actually be thankful to Ian for making his boring and dull characters interesting and likeable. I don't think fans of Pre-Flynn Geoffrey exist, though, fans of Ixis-Geoffrey actually do. Same thing with Scourge and a lot of others.

You'd think so, but that's not really how Penders rolls. The guy for all intents and purposes views himself as 'the' writer for the Sonic book and in the wider scheme of things see's himself as providing crucial lore and worldbuilding to the Sonic franchise on the whole, with later writers basically being intruders into something he all but views as HIS great work exclusively. He acts less like one writer on a licensed book among many other writers, and more like an Original Creator who was forced to suffer 

And I'll say this- his stuff DID have fans, back in the day, but not in the way he likes to pretend. One of the beautiful things about underdeveloped characters is that it allows you to do a lot of the legwork yourself- it's rather stimulating for the imagination. I think what happened is that a lot of fans developed his stuff for their own work and saw what they developed as already existing in the characters. I know, cause that was the case for me- I eventually realized that a lot of what drew me to Penders' characters ultimately came from fan writers rather than Penders himself. It's untrue to suggest there were NO fans- but it IS true that they became far, far more popular once Flynn got to work on them. 

1 hour ago, Leebo4 said:

I think Ken should be given some credit for his work on the comics

for better or for worst he did take the comic in the direction of the tone of the satam show with ambitious mythology, ideas and taking it seriously

you can contest the quality or execution but I honestly doubt if he didn’t take it in the direction he did, the comic would be the long runner it became

most comic writers back then working on a tie in comic especially a video game one wouldn’t have put in the effort he did in trying to expand the universe

It's kind of hard to appreciate that it's basically saying he should be credited for putting in a bare minimum of storytelling direction when others wouldn't, especially when it's clear that he needed Kanterovich in the first place to not only get him in the job, but to give his earliest works a veneeer of basic writing competency. His mythology was bloated and nonsensical, and it's clear over time he saw the book less as its own thing and more of a vehicle for his own ideas that he couldn't get made anywhere else, IE the Knuckles books. Add in the fact that his career owes more to the popularity of Sonic and the culture of permissiveness at Archie that allowed him to thrive, and it becomes even more difficult to care THAT much about his contributions.

And to be blunt, he's already credited with the things you mention. That his efforts are genuinely unimpressive and his own rancid behavior makes it that much easier to dismiss him is something he's brought on himself entirely.