Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[horridus]

7 hours ago, dwitefry666 said:

I'd assume he got the name back when he 'won' back his characters, and is re-using...wait, he was trying to use the Kintobor name in Lara-Su Chronicles? 

In the Geoffrey St. John bio he made he made references to a 'Warlord Kintobor' and a 'Princess of Acorn', oblique references/derivatives to Robotnik and Sally Acorn without actually using their names, while simultaneously making zero effort to even try and differentiate them from their origins. 

[CertifiedNobody]

7 minutes ago, horridus said:

In the Geoffrey St. John bio he made he made references to a 'Warlord Kintobor' and a 'Princess of Acorn', oblique references/derivatives to Robotnik and Sally Acorn without actually using their names, while simultaneously making zero effort to even try and differentiate them from their origins. 

I don't have a problem with him creating expies of Sonic characters, but it's clear he's not even trying with these names.

[Zonic 2099]

6 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

I don't have a problem with him creating expies of Sonic characters, but it's clear he's not even trying with these names.

Unfortunately he wants this to still be as tied to Sonic as he possibly can without crossing the legal line but his doing so is painfully close to touching.

[horridus]

12 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

I don't have a problem with him creating expies of Sonic characters, but it's clear he's not even trying with these names.

Yep. Which is bizarre because he's demonstrated he CAN do it- he's replaced Rotor with a rhino called 'Artemus', and since he can't use Athair he evidently intends to use a new, female character called 'Auri-On'. He's perfectly capable of altering things to a degree where they're distinct from the source, but he just refuses to put in any real effort when it comes to the 'big names' he wants to rip off like Knuckles, Sally and Robotnik. Hell, even Sonic gets referenced as a 'Blue spined erinacinae', which is a fancy word for Hedgehog. 

[CertifiedNobody]

14 minutes ago, horridus said:

Yep. Which is bizarre because he's demonstrated he CAN do it- he's replaced Rotor with a rhino called 'Artemus', and since he can't use Athair he evidently intends to use a new, female character called 'Auri-On'. He's perfectly capable of altering things to a degree where they're distinct from the source, but he just refuses to put in any real effort when it comes to the 'big names' he wants to rip off like Knuckles, Sally and Robotnik. Hell, even Sonic gets referenced as a 'Blue spined erinacinae', which is a fancy word for Hedgehog. 

I feel like even I could come up with a better way to legally include a Sonic-y character. Maybe just have a fast side character called "Bullet", or even just make Scourge the Sonic of his world

[CertifiedNobody]

Honestly, the audacity of Ken to make Warlord Kintobor and the other expies after suing Sega and EA for creating the Nocturnus Clan is incredible and disgusting at the same time, and I'm curious as to whether or not he's self aware enough to let go of that case altogether so he won't get sued back by Sega. (I'd just like SEGA to bring back those characters and lore tbh.)

[Mega]

Can he even use Kintobor? The name was used in the old Sonic bibles and in StC, so like. What?

[CertifiedNobody]

23 minutes ago, Mega said:

Can he even use Kintobor? The name was used in the old Sonic bibles and in StC, so like. What?

Maybe he realized that was the case and dropped it in favor of "Robo-Robotnicus". I'm not sure which name is more insulting tbh.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

On 9/23/2021 at 4:52 AM, Zonic 2099 said:

Unfortunately he wants this to still be as tied to Sonic as he possibly can without crossing the legal line but his doing so is painfully close to touching.

Which, for the umpteenth time, is stupid as shit.

I don’t know how many times it needs to be said that he could go a lot further making it separate from Sonic. He was creative enough(?) to get away with plagiarism before people caught on decades later, he shouldn’t be having difficulty understanding the benefit of creating his own setting.

A ten year old can do this with ease.

[CertifiedNobody]

I wish Penders would be a Q&A or something. He may be overly political, occasionally insane, and think he can reprint the Archie Sonic comics he wrote, but I'd like hear more about what it was like transitioning the comic to be more serious, some of the stuff he planned had he stayed on, and minor stuff like how he feels about Shadow when Anti-Sonic already existed.

[horridus]

On 9/23/2021 at 10:29 AM, CertifiedNobody said:

I feel like even I could come up with a better way to legally include a Sonic-y character. Maybe just have a fast side character called "Bullet", or even just make Scourge the Sonic of his world

Given how Sonic was written during Penders' last run on the book, that would work better than you might imagine... 

On 9/24/2021 at 7:35 PM, CertifiedNobody said:

Honestly, the audacity of Ken to make Warlord Kintobor and the other expies after suing Sega and EA for creating the Nocturnus Clan is incredible and disgusting at the same time, and I'm curious as to whether or not he's self aware enough to let go of that case altogether so he won't get sued back by Sega. (I'd just like SEGA to bring back those characters and lore tbh.)

In case you haven't noticed, "Rules For Thee But Not For Me" is basically Penders' guiding principle in life. How aware he is, is up in the air given that he tends to religiously cite that case, yet at the same time seems to really believe that he can do this without it being legally problematic. Best I can guess is that he's counting on the fact he's too much of a small potato for SEGA to really care about. And on that front, he's right- the odds of this being any kind of success are slim to nonexistant, let alone successful enough to cut into SEGA's profit margins. 

On 9/24/2021 at 9:06 PM, Mega said:

Can he even use Kintobor? The name was used in the old Sonic bibles and in StC, so like. What?

Penders has consistently operated under this really weird logic that since things like 'Mobius' aren't in use, it's basically free real estate, even calling them 'abandoned' concepts. That they might still be copyright/trademarked to SEGA is something he never really acknowledges. 

On 9/27/2021 at 3:09 AM, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Which, for the umpteenth time, is stupid as shit.

I don’t know how many times it needs to be said that he could go a lot further making it separate from Sonic. He was creative enough(?) to get away with plagiarism before people caught on decades later, he shouldn’t be having difficulty understanding the benefit of creating his own setting.

A ten year old can do this with ease.

Therein lies the tragicomic irony that has been a part of this since the beginning. For as much as Penders' touts himself and his career, he's all too aware of the fact that Sonic is the only thing, literally the only thing that gave him a career and any kind of acclaim, and that he needs that connection to garner any sort of attention for his work. His sole original series, The Lost Ones, crashed and burned without ever getting past its first issue. Plus, he labors under the belief that his Sonic work has some kind of huge international fanbase. That gives him even less of a reason to bite the bullet and remake everything into a truly original work. 

[CertifiedNobody]

23 minutes ago, horridus said:

In case you haven't noticed, "Rules For Thee But Not For Me" is basically Penders' guiding principle in life. How aware he is, is up in the air given that he tends to religiously cite that case, yet at the same time seems to really believe that he can do this without it being legally problematic. Best I can guess is that he's counting on the fact he's too much of a small potato for SEGA to really care about. And on that front, he's right- the odds of this being any kind of success are slim to nonexistant, let alone successful enough to cut into SEGA's profit margins. 

The one thing he isn't counting on is that his book is actual garbage and Sega doesn't want it damaging their brand.

[CertifiedNobody]

Does anyone think we'll see Archie rereleased someday? I don't mean soon, but possibly after Penders' death. If Sonic continues it's growth as a multimedia brand, I could see Sega considering it worthwhile to buy back the "classic" Sonic comic from his family for a reasonable amount. It's not like they've fallen into obscurity, there are still articles talking about them to this day.

[Promethean0416]

6 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Does anyone think we'll see Archie rereleased someday? I don't mean soon, but possibly after Penders' death. If Sonic continues it's growth as a multimedia brand, I could see Sega considering it worthwhile to buy back the "classic" Sonic comic from his family for a reasonable amount. It's not like they've fallen into obscurity, there are still articles talking about them to this day.

Somehow, I doubt that the Archie series will get a rerelease because I imagine Sega is too focused/invested in IDW.

Then there's the character rights from others, which would probably attract attention from their respective creators and they may try to get a chunk of whatever profit is made on any rerelease of that content. Even after Penders, it will be likely those copyrights will pass to his children and grandchildren being owners, which they may not agree to allow.

So, it's 99.9% not likely happening.

 

To bring it back on track, I am reading his tweets on his progress and he seems more focused on the M25YL rerelease/reboot, whatever you call it than the actual novel, which I guess is supposed to be easier than changing the story/certain elements many times, especially with that one "chameleon?" character.

 

 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

If anything Archie were to be re-released, I'd expect it to be post-reboot stuff. Maybe Worlds Collide or Genesis.

[Rabbitearsblog]

8 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Does anyone think we'll see Archie rereleased someday? I don't mean soon, but possibly after Penders' death. If Sonic continues it's growth as a multimedia brand, I could see Sega considering it worthwhile to buy back the "classic" Sonic comic from his family for a reasonable amount. It's not like they've fallen into obscurity, there are still articles talking about them to this day.

I doubt it since SEGA would have to clear it with Archie and from what I know, SEGA has cut off all ties with Archie, so they probably wouldn't want to deal with Archie beyond this point.

[CertifiedNobody]

1 hour ago, Promethean0416 said:

Somehow, I doubt that the Archie series will get a rerelease because I imagine Sega is too focused/invested in IDW.

Then there's the character rights from others, which would probably attract attention from their respective creators and they may try to get a chunk of whatever profit is made on any rerelease of that content. Even after Penders, it will be likely those copyrights will pass to his children and grandchildren being owners, which they may not agree to allow.

So, it's 99.9% not likely happening.

 

To bring it back on track, I am reading his tweets on his progress and he seems more focused on the M25YL rerelease/reboot, whatever you call it than the actual novel, which I guess is supposed to be easier than changing the story/certain elements many times, especially with that one "chameleon?" character.

 

7 minutes ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

If anything Archie were to be re-released, I'd expect it to be post-reboot stuff. Maybe Worlds Collide or Genesis.

Of course post-reboot Archie is easier to bring back, but in 20+ years, the trouble of the legal issues with creators may be outweighed by the value of pre-reboot archie. It's deeply tied to the history of the franchise and has a lot of nostalgic fans. There's a reason IDW bothered to go rerelease the 80s Transformer comics despite certain elements having been copyrighted by Marvel. Post-reboot doesn't have as much of that, and while I'd like it to come back, in the grand scheme of things it was barely anything more than a short-lived reboot of the series people remember and make Screen Rant articles about.

Most of these other creators have done absolutely nothing with their creations, and their characters will only decrease in value as they go unused more and more. I find it likely that Sega could get most of the important Archie stories back at that point. Penders descendants would likely be more willing to sell his characters back than him, especially since it would mean getting his classic stories rereleased.

Also is Penders seriously trying to rerelease M25YL? A comic starring Sega Mascot Sonic The Hedgehog and his copyrighted friends, Sally Acorn and Knuckles The Echidna?

3 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

I doubt it since SEGA would have to clear it with Archie and from what I know, SEGA has cut off all ties with Archie, so they probably wouldn't want to deal with Archie beyond this point.

Not anytime soon, but in a few decades that may not be the case.

[Rabbitearsblog]

On 10/4/2021 at 5:07 PM, CertifiedNobody said:

Not anytime soon, but in a few decades that may not be the case.

You might be right about that.  If the demand is high enough, then SEGA might try to negotiate with Archie Comics in releasing the comics.

[Zaysho]

On 10/4/2021 at 5:02 PM, Rabbitearsblog said:

I doubt it since SEGA would have to clear it with Archie and from what I know, SEGA has cut off all ties with Archie, so they probably wouldn't want to deal with Archie beyond this point.

I don't think Archie has any say in what gets re-released; their license expired nearly five years ago. Sega owns whatever wasn't ripped out by the lawsuit and always have. The issue lies with individual creators who retained the rights to their contributions or signed them over to others.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

27 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I don't think Archie has any say in what gets re-released; their license expired nearly five years ago. Sega owns whatever wasn't ripped out by the lawsuit and always have. The issue lies with individual creators who retained the rights to their contributions or signed them over to others.

What about reboot redesigns? I thought those were off-limits or something?

Shit’s not making sense from what I hear from here or there…

[Zaysho]

3 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

What about redesigns? I thought those were off-limits or something?

Shit’s not making sense from what I hear from here or there…

The guy who spread that (who I believe was Kuta) was lying about that per this tweet the Rally4Sally people did.

Archie had to ensure Sega would own anything produced for the book especially after they screwed up the contracts so badly before Ian's time. It wouldn't make much sense for Archie to have any hold on anything after what happened.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

33 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

The guy who spread that (who I believe was Kuta) was lying about that per this tweet the Rally4Sally people did.

Archie had to ensure Sega would own anything produced for the book especially after they screwed up the contracts so badly before Ian's time. It wouldn't make much sense for Archie to have any hold on anything after what happened.

So there is a chance?

Well, that clears up a lot of things. Now all I need are details on if Sega might be keen on using the Nocturnus tribe in the future. (Feel free to shatter that dream if it turns out not the case)

[CertifiedNobody]

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

So there is a chance?

Well, that clears up a lot of things. Now all I need are details on if Sega might be keen on using the Nocturnus tribe in the future. (Feel free to shatter that dream if it turns out not the case)

Ian said that Chronicles was being covered in the Encyclospeedia, although we'll have to wait and see how much it is. They could  reestablish the Nocturnus Clan in it's entirety considering their connecting to Emerl and the Gizoids, or we could just get a page going over the game. 

2 hours ago, Zaysho said:

I don't think Archie has any say in what gets re-released; their license expired nearly five years ago. Sega owns whatever wasn't ripped out by the lawsuit and always have. The issue lies with individual creators who retained the rights to their contributions or signed them over to others.

I feel like everyone aside from Penders would be willing to hand over their characters for a reasonable amount of money, considering Penders is the only one who's actually got anything planned for his characters, and there's still a number of Archie comics without any original characters, such as the Genesis storyline and Mecha Madness.

Out of curiosity, does Sega own Fiona Fox? I think I remember something about her being used on the Sonic twitter at some point.

[Zaysho]

1 hour ago, CertifiedNobody said:

I feel like everyone aside from Penders would be willing to hand over their characters for a reasonable amount of money, considering Penders is the only one who's actually got anything planned for his characters, and there's still a number of Archie comics without any original characters, such as the Genesis storyline and Mecha Madness.

Out of curiosity, does Sega own Fiona Fox? I think I remember something about her being used on the Sonic twitter at some point.

I don't think it's that clear cut, but most of what I say is just assumptions based on observing this and small things I've gleaned from similar creators' rights cases. I am by no means an expert on the subject. However, I don't think it's as simple as just selling whatever they own (because these things just defaulted to them, only a handful of creators like Penders, Fulop, and Shaw have some copyright claim we know was filed in some form). There's virtually no reason for them to do that when they could (as Penders is currently attempting) just license them, but there's similarly no reason for Sega to license the characters back nor buy them. It's a stalemate. The only people who would probably be interested are people like me who liked the old comic. Sega would, understandably, just move onto a new product they actually control.

I'd like to be wrong for it all to work out, but the Archie mess makes Nintendo getting Sora into Smash Bros. look somewhat less nightmarish in comparison.

I don't know what Twitter post you're referring to, but they more than likely don't own her. She was created by Mike Gallagher in the 90's (albeit as an android) for a lead-in to the Tails mini-series before Penders introduced the real one a few years later in the Knuckles book. Presumably she'd default to Gallagher simply because he introduced her and Penders just reused a concept, not create a whole new character though (I get the irony considering all the shit he's said regarding Scourge and Robo-Robotnik).

[Shaddy Zaphod]

If anyone, I think Bollers is the one most likely to work with them to get some of the old characters back. At least from his twitter, he still sometimes answers Sonic questions and seems to maintain a casual respect for the series. They still probably wouldn't get their hands on them without giving him money, though, and the guy was the target of plenty of "the slap" anger alongside Jon Gray (which has sort of merged into general comicsgate conspiracy bullshit since they are two black men who have been public about their struggles in the industry), so maybe he'd want to stay out of it.

I dunno what's going on with Frank Strom or Romy Chacon (assuming they aren't a pseudonym for Pellerito), but I never liked much of what they created anyway.