Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Zaysho]

Fun fact about that; apparently Penders intended to reveal Rouge to be in her thirties or such when he wrote that, but was sacked before it could ever come up. Viewed in that context it's slightly less skeevy, though still kind of brow raising for various other reasons. I honestly would not particularly object to Rouge being aged up, but I would have figured her to be in her mid-twenties rather than her thirties myself. 

 

As for Penders' objections to Locke during Darkest Storm... remember, Locke is based on his father. A father he admitted he didn't have that great a relationship with and whom he only appreciated in hindsight because he himself 'had it good' compared to what his own dad had been through (IE being abandoned by his father at a young age). Because of this, Penders takes any kind of insinuation about Locke being a less than stellar father very, very personally, despite the mountain of evidence that would suggest that yes, Locke is kind of a douchebag. It's been said before and I'll say it again; he put far too much of himself into this, and as such, invested far too much into it as well.

1. Except Rouge was established, by SEGA, to be 18 since her first appearance... 'kay Penders. Granted, I see nothing wrong with aging/de-aging characters in adaptations/alternate universes (which Archie Sonic is), I doubt SEGA would've been OK with him making that call even if he was on the book still, you know, being an official licensed product and all (we'll ignore what a mess Charmy was because SEGA of America made up their own age). Wasn't that storyline during Pellerito's run as editor (who, I understand, wanted to get the book back on track after the mess Gabrie left after letting Bollers and Penders run wild for so long)?

2. Either Penders expected to be on the book forever, which is why he thought it was OK to model a character off of his father (and not loosely, apparently) or he just expected Archie to stop using "his" creations the moment he walked out the door, which they were under no obligation to do until the whole mess came up (because, up until then, everything was classified as WFH).

While I sort of understand why he'd be protective of Locke given the circumstances (maybe he should've looked at how Flynn progressed the character up until his sacrifice), I feel like there's some sort of "freelancing 101" lesson in here somewhere. I just think if you're on a book like Sonic, keep your personal life away. Creator owned work? Go to town. That's my take, anyway.

[horridus]

On the first front, it becomes loathsome no matter how you look at it; either Locke willingly engaged in that behaviour with a girl barely older than his own son, or a thirty year old woman paired herself up with a seventeen year old delinquent (Evil Sonic/Scourge) with similar undertones. Though I would point out, Sonic Team had her *17* in Sonic Heroes... were it not for bios suggesting otherwise, I myself would have assumed her to be in her mid-twenties or so. Either way though, skeeviness for all. 

 

And on the second front, I don't think Penders expected that Archie would hire on Flynn to replace him. From what I heard, he apparently expected to be hired back on shortly after. Course, that doesn't really dismiss the idea that he probably DID expect to be on the book forever or, barring that, expected subsequent writers to 'respect' his material, which in his mind translates in doing nothing radically different from what he was doing. 

 

And really, there's a plethora of things about Penders you could use as educational material... he's a living breathing 'Goofus'; an anti-role model, someone you should explicitly NOT emulate if you want to get anywhere in life. 

[Big Panda]

Re: artists: it varies not just between artists, but periods of the comic.

A good example of good artists becoming not so good later on is Art Mawhinney. His style fit perfectly for the classic era, but when it came to the modern era...I wouldn't say it was downright bad, just really out of place. He basically couldn't quite move on from drawing classic style. He continued to draw Sonic at the same height, but gave him green eyes and longer head spines (which looked awkward on his short body).

Either way, he still loses points for being the artist behind Titan Tails.

[horridus]

Re: artists: it varies not just between artists, but periods of the comic.

A good example of good artists becoming not so good later on is Art Mawhinney. His style fit perfectly for the classic era, but when it came to the modern era...I wouldn't say it was downright bad, just really out of place. He basically couldn't quite move on from drawing classic style. He continued to draw Sonic at the same height, but gave him green eyes and longer head spines (which looked awkward on his short body).

Either way, he still loses points for being the artist behind Titan Tails.

 

Let's be frank; no matter who drew that one, it was gonna suck. Spaz, Axer, Butler... any of them could have been on their A-game, with the best colorists available, and it would STILL be infamous as the Dumbest Thing Ever. 

 

Spot on about him later on though, sadly. He just could not do Modern Sonic's quills, like at all. 

[Zaysho]

On the first front, it becomes loathsome no matter how you look at it; either Locke willingly engaged in that behaviour with a girl barely older than his own son, or a thirty year old woman paired herself up with a seventeen year old delinquent (Evil Sonic/Scourge) with similar undertones. Though I would point out, Sonic Team had her *17* in Sonic Heroes... were it not for bios suggesting otherwise, I myself would have assumed her to be in her mid-twenties or so. Either way though, skeeviness for all. 

 

And on the second front, I don't think Penders expected that Archie would hire on Flynn to replace him. From what I heard, he apparently expected to be hired back on shortly after. Course, that doesn't really dismiss the idea that he probably DID expect to be on the book forever or, barring that, expected subsequent writers to 'respect' his material, which in his mind translates in doing nothing radically different from what he was doing. 

 

And really, there's a plethora of things about Penders you could use as educational material... he's a living breathing 'Goofus'; an anti-role model, someone you should explicitly NOT do if you want to get anywhere in life.

Ah, for some reason I thought she was 18 in the Heroes manual, but you're right. I guess Sonic Team went and "fixed" that later when they did later profiles. Just as well, honestly.

Indeed, this whole mess has been especially disillusioning and disappointing for me, since his was one of the few names I knew from the book since I was a kid (as well as the not used enough combo of Spaz and Harvo). But it is definitely an education, from everything to PR to understanding criticism and what to avoid with... well, anything.

 

Re: artists: it varies not just between artists, but periods of the comic.

A good example of good artists becoming not so good later on is Art Mawhinney. His style fit perfectly for the classic era, but when it came to the modern era...I wouldn't say it was downright bad, just really out of place. He basically couldn't quite move on from drawing classic style. He continued to draw Sonic at the same height, but gave him green eyes and longer head spines (which looked awkward on his short body).

Either way, he still loses points for being the artist behind Titan Tails.

I seem to recall he gave Sonic a whole mess of spines too, instead of just six on his head and two on his back. It really is a shame because Mawhinney was a great artist--great storytelling and movement--but you're right, he couldn't adjust to the modern style at all. That said, I think late Mawhinney was still miles better than Lim's contributions (not that LIm himself is a bad artist, but his Sonic stuff is awful), but I suppose that's not saying much.

Actually, I seem to recall seeing some really late-era Mawhinney stuff and the characters had this odd, almost soulless look to them, like the eyes kind of stare off into space. Am I the only one?

[horridus]

Indeed, this whole mess has been especially disillusioning and disappointing for me, since his was one of the few names I knew from the book since I was a kid (as well as the not used enough combo of Spaz and Harvo). But it is definitely an education, from everything to PR to understanding criticism and what to avoid with... well, anything.

I feel your pain. I really once admired the guy, even defended his contributions. I read far more into his work than he ever did, and after this whole trial nonsense and then seeing his twitter and forums... it hit me. The man was a prick. No ifs, ands or buts about it. I had to sell my Sonic collection because of it. I couldn't stand to even look at it, knowing I had wasted so much of my time and money on such a worthless excuse for a person. 

 

I seem to recall he gave Sonic a whole mess of spines too, instead of just six on his head and two on his back. It really is a shame because Mawhinney was a great artist--great storytelling and movement--but you're right, he couldn't adjust to the modern style at all. Granted, I think late Mawhinney was still miles better than Lim's contributions (not that LIm himself is a bad artist, but his Sonic stuff is awful), but I suppose that's not saying much.

 

 

It says more than you'd think; Lim could at least draw humans well, if nothing else. 

 

You want to scrape the bottom of the barrel? Two words, friendo; 'Many Hands'. Now THERE'S a not-compliment; 'Better than Many Hands'. 

[Zaysho]

It says more than you'd think; Lim could at least draw humans well, if nothing else. 

 

You want to scrape the bottom of the barrel? Two words, friendo; 'Many Hands'. Now THERE'S a not-compliment; 'Better than Many Hands'.

True, I think Sonic, in the end, was just a very bad fit for Lim. The guy was pretty good in many respects, just not with Sonic characters. Shame, because he actually did a good pin-up before he got the gig for the book and I can't help but wonder "Where the hell was this Lim?" during his actual run.

I don't know how I keep forgetting Many Hands (I heard somewhere that was actually Gabrie). Hell, even Penders was better than Many Hands... at least as far as basic composition/layouts go (when he wasn't having Spaz fill in panels/pages for him, anyway). I'd say his ability to draw characters was just as bad.

[SonikkuForever]

Latest Twitter drama: A user tells Ken that "everyone sees TLSC as "a major rip-off of the Archie comic series". Ken replies:

 

 

 

Whoa! Let's be careful with the term "rip off". TL-SC uses only characters I created, which both Archie & Sega benefitted from.

 

 

 

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, Ken Penders, the savior of Archie and SEGA. What would we do without him?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Latest Twitter drama: A user tells Ken that "everyone sees TLSC as "a major rip-off of the Archie comic series". Ken replies:

 

 

 

 

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, Ken Penders, the savior of Archie and SEGA. What would we do without him?

We'd still have Ian Flynn writing the characters created by him and writing them better than Penders could ever hope?

 

But seriously? Those characters Sega and Archie ''benefited'' from was created for THE FREAKING SONIC THE HEDGEHOG COMIC SERIES! AS IN CHARACTERS THAT WERE FIRST CREATED FOR USE IN A LICENSED COMIC!

 

Man how does he manage to get on people's nerves so easily?!  

[Johnny2071]

Supposedly, his son was a fan at the time. Given how little effort he gave despite having the perfect excuse for being a grown man playing a children's video game, he never really utilized anything from the games unless he absolutely had to... I sometimes wonder if it was just a ruse he made up so his buddy on the series would bring him on board. 

 

Prior to writing for Sonic, Penders did a bit of work on licensed Star Trek comics as both an artist and a writer... much like with Archie, he was brought on board due to a personal friendship with a higher-up in DC, first doing art for a Who's Who guide and then writing a few issues. Looking over his bibliography, his only steady, longtime gig as a writer and artist was with Sonic, and it was the only thing you could say he was successful at. As has been noted, he pretty much coasted off of Sonic's fame and really DID try to use it to springboard his own career; remember The Lost Ones? The Image Crossover? 

 

Even now though, he's trying to use Sonic for his own ends. How else do you explain his baffling, obstinate refusal to do anything to TRULY separate LSC from his work on Sonic? His redesigns still look like the SEGA conception of Echidna, and the story he claims will blend seamlesssly with his past Sonic work. Despite the fact he made them Aliens which, by default, makes it a less than seamless blending alone. 

 

He knows his own work cannot stand on its own, and that is why he refuses to move beyond Sonic. It was the only time he had any real success and the only time he really had a career in comics as a writer. Otherwise? The overwhelming bulk of his work for comics has been as an inker and letterer... notably, he does not consider colorists essential in the way writers and pencillers are, despite that being where most of his career has been outside of Sonic. 

 

You know when you say "ruse", Penders starts to remind me more and more of Ivo Robotnik/Dr. Eggman, how he snuck into Mobian territory, got in good graces with them (including the higher-ups), and then stabbed on the back, all for his own twisted personal gain.

 

Boy, I wonder what would happen if Penders had to meet with Naka, Oshima, and Iizuka, and someone slapped an issue of Sonic Live on the table, along with the issue that features the stolen poem, the original version, and some of his TLSC art. That should be the feature-length Penders film: him in hot water with the true figureheads of Sonic and Sega. But why stop there, it should also be a live-stream film, and everyone would have a bucket of popcorn in front of them.

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

You want to scrape the bottom of the barrel? Two words, friendo; 'Many Hands'. Now THERE'S a not-compliment; 'Better than Many Hands'. 

 

Now, here's where my ignorance as far as Archie's history shows: Just what was the story of Many Hands? It sounds like a pseudonym for multiple people, a la Alan Smithee, but my knowledge of the Penders era largely stems from this and the Archie thread. Could someone enlighten me? I only ask half-heartedly, because dredging up memories of such an artist sounds more cruel than anything.

[SonikkuForever]

Now, here's where my ignorance as far as Archie's history shows: Just what was the story of Many Hands? It sounds like a pseudonym for multiple people, a la Alan Smithee, but my knowledge of the Penders era largely stems from this and the Archie thread. Could someone enlighten me? I only ask half-heartedly, because dredging up memories of such an artist sounds more cruel than anything.

 

 

"Many Hands" was a likely a pen name used when a story was cycled through several pencilers/inkers. He/they were only credited in two stories, which is good because the artwork is rather infamous for it's poor quality.

 

Heck, in some cases, it wasn't really artwork at all - one story credited to "Many Hands" is "Naugus Games" from Sonic Super Special #15. Seems Hands didn't want to (or couldn't) draw, so most of the story (which is credited to Penders, though he now insists he had nothing to do with it) was told through blank panels.

 

Four pages were just solid black panels with Sonic's eyes drawn in (because Sonic was in a cave) and then another six pages consisted of white panels with some snowflakes and word bubbles (because Naugus summoned a snowstorm). But maybe it was for the best, because whenever Many Hands was forced to actually draw something... the results weren't pretty.

 

[Zaysho]

Yikes, I'm almost glad I forget what Many Hands looks like, and I flipped through #113 recently since I was thinking about using it as a reference to practice layouts...

 

That said, I can't sleep yet and couldn't resist trying my hand at the above page.

 

Just a quick layout, I'm rusty with my comics pages and I thought it'd be a fun exercise.

Hell, I can't blame Penders for renouncing that issue. I've actually seen the blank pages before, and it's just... how many people in editorial and licensing were asleep when this crap went to the presses?

[biznizz]

Metal Sonic appeared first in Sonic CD, which came out in 1994... Geoffrey appeared first in the comics in 1995. So, FuhrerFanboy would be wrong.

 

"But Metal Sonic was just a personality devoid enemy in the game! And Geoffrey made his debut in the book in 1995, four months before the Sonic CD adaptation! You're just trying to bury just how great Ken really is with semantics! Did you see how brilliant the romance between Sally & Geoffrey was suddenly revealed to the reader at the end of the Sally mini, despite her barely knowing him? It's just as brilliant as the Soul Touch! Who wants to see characters actually spend time together and have a relationship grow. We got that already with Sonic/Sally & Bunnie/Antoine (which Ken totally created! Angelo wasn't a real contributor to the book!). Yawn. I'm glad that Knuckles/Julie-Su & a potential Sally/Geoffrey was fasttracked, it cut out the boring parts!"

[antyep]

"But Metal Sonic was just a personality devoid enemy in the game! And Geoffrey made his debut in the book in 1995, four months before the Sonic CD adaptation! You're just trying to bury just how great Ken really is with semantics! Did you see how brilliant the romance between Sally & Geoffrey was suddenly revealed to the reader at the end of the Sally mini, despite her barely knowing him? It's just as brilliant as the Soul Touch! Who wants to see characters actually spend time together and have a relationship grow. We got that already with Sonic/Sally & Bunnie/Antoine (which Ken totally created! Angelo wasn't a real contributor to the book!). Yawn. I'm glad that Knuckles/Julie-Su & a potential Sally/Geoffrey was fasttracked, it cut out the boring parts!"

 

Are you making this up? Because I'm laughing my ass off. XDDD

[Zaysho]

Are you making this up? Because I'm laughing my ass off. XDDD

The scary thing is, he's probably not that far off...

[biznizz]

Are you making this up? Because I'm laughing my ass off. XDDD

 

It's the logic of a Penders asskisser. Sadly enough, I got the spirit of that from this twitter thread: https://twitter.com/FuhrerMustang/status/472195049720008705

 

 

I seem to recall he gave Sonic a whole mess of spines too, instead of just six on his head and two on his back. It really is a shame because Mawhinney was a great artist--great storytelling and movement--but you're right, he couldn't adjust to the modern style at all. That said, I think late Mawhinney was still miles better than Lim's contributions (not that LIm himself is a bad artist, but his Sonic stuff is awful), but I suppose that's not saying much.

Actually, I seem to recall seeing some really late-era Mawhinney stuff and the characters had this odd, almost soulless look to them, like the eyes kind of stare off into space. Am I the only one?

 

You are not wrong. Art's Modern era stuff seemed a bit... stale in comparison to his earlier work. Also, so everyone can see it: Rouge macking on Locke.

 

 

 

 

Soooo...... ew.

 

 

As for the subject of Lim, I have to say that after he became a main penciller for the book, his quality took a nosedive; nearly everyone looked really, REALLY awful. Almost everything except, oddly enough, his Dr. Eggman looked really freaking bad.

 

 

 

Like seriously, Mecha Snively here only looks barely better than the normal Snively, so even most of Lim's humans were a crapshoot.

 

Many Hands I don't even consider a real artist; just a pseudonym of whatever Archie interns they could get to crap out Naugus Games and that adaptation of SatAM's Wolf Pack episode.

[QuantumEdge]

What's weird is my sister looked at the other comics Lim's worked for and his artwork's really good... I get the feeling he either A) he wasn't that interested in the Sonic comic and it shows or B ) he just can't draw a decent Mobian.

[Zaysho]

Wow, those pages of Rouge hitting on Locke... I want to gag. Not because of the illustrations, but the script. I know Rouge is intended to be insincere, but cripes it doesn't make it any easier to read. Mawhinney's kinda cutesy, cartoony style really doesn't fit with all the furry drama Penders was trying to shove down people's throats.

Many Hands I don't even consider a real artist; just a pseudonym of whatever Archie interns they could get to crap out Naugus Games and that adaptation of SatAM's Wolf Pack episode.

I'm not sure what bothers me more. That whoever Archie wrangled together for that crap probably didn't have much of an art background or that SEGA really didn't give a shit what Archie was sending to print to represent their flagship... 

 

What's weird is my sister looked at the other comics Lim's worked for and his artwork's really good... I get the feeling he either A) he wasn't that interested in the Sonic comic and it shows or B ) he just can't draw a decent Mobian.

 

The funny thing is, I don't remember him even listing Archie/Sonic on his list of credits on his website back in the day. In any case, that stuff has definitely been buried by his much later work, but I always thought it was odd, considering how long he was on the book for. Guess Sonic was always just another gig to him and he wasn't that interested.

[Delta Starfire]

Just had a quick skim through SSS #15. How the hell did they get away with that...? I thought you guys were exaggerating about multiple pages with nothing but snowflakes on them, but no. This is no exaggeration. There literally are multiple pages with nothing on them but snowflakes! 

 

There's a reason I skipped that special... 

 

Oh, and it gets worse. The backup story is in black and white. This was 2001, people! The time of black and white comics was over by then -- especially in 48 page specials! 

 

No wonder it was the last Sonic special ever. 

[horridus]

They got away with it because, as stated, the Sonic comic during those times had little real oversight, and SEGA wasn't as involved as they are now. As such, all KINDS of blatantly shoddy work got approved, at least until Pellerito because head editor and SEGA started to actually involve themselves... which, naturally, was around the time Ken quit, given that he really cannot seem to handle working in an environment with actual standards. 

 

Though yeah, that backup story... I think it was meant to be an homage/parody of Frank Miller's Sin City comics, which are done in black and white to emphasize the 'noir' style. Course, for a multitude of reasons, it just failed miserably here and killed the entire line... and thank goodness for that. Penders evidently was gonna do a reboot of his own in the next Super Special, but that idea was axed. 

[biznizz]

Ken was planning on both the Manga Reboot in a Super Special, as well as Knuckles: 20 Years Later, where Knuckles fights/kills Dr. Droid/Robo-Robotnik and fulfill his ultimate destiny of being a greater hero than that nobody Sonic.

 

Honestly, the demise of the original Super Specials, as a companion book that pre-dated Universe, was wasted potential. You'd get some mixed bags (and I mean storywise. God help you if you got something Penders actually illustrated) like the Sonic Adventure one, Girls Rule, Return of the King...

 

...Then you'd get crap like Naugus Games, Sonic Stew (Ally McBeal parody? WTF?!), both Sonic Kids, and.... Parallel Paradigm (the Image crossover that was the backdoor pilot to Lost Ones).

 

Honestly, if they had people who actually gave a crap more consistantly then, the Super Special's demise could have actually been avoided.

[horridus]

Aye, that's the real tragedy. With the extra pages and a name like 'Super Special', you'd expect bigger, better and more significant stories from the main comic, stuff that was meant to be really memorable or epic... instead more often than not you just had the writers faffing about not doing a whole lot different from the main line. 

 

And you know, I had spent years not knowing that that 'Sonic Manga' thing was intended to be a full fledged reboot... I always regretted not seeing it because I thought it was a neat little idea to see that 'take' on Sonic, but then it turns out Penders intended it as the start of a rebooted Sonic verse... on his twitter he claimed it would have the best of all universes. Me, I think it was just his attempt to hijack the comic and the things that had contributed to its existence all the more. 

 

And oh yes, the Image Crossover. I cannot begin to imagine the kind of ego or balls that it takes to attempt something like that one, displacing TWO well known companies and their characters in the name of trying to start your own sub-par comic. 

[Delta Starfire]

Frank Miller...? 

 

...the hell are you doing aping his style in a family friendly comic? Miller's brand of crazy is not suitable for kids. Seriously. 

 

It's interesting to note, by the way, that I skipped more issues of SSS than anything else in my initial reading of StH, and I'll be skipping even more of them this time around. 

[biznizz]

He was a lesser type of crazy pre-9/11. Even though he had hookers, drugs, & violence in Sin City, it (at least the early stories) were actually well lauded in the industry.

 

This type of reference is like... if they recognize it, then hey, that's cool that they gave a tip of the hat to a (then) well respected creator. If they don't recognize it/never read Sin City, then it'll just go over their heads and be no stranger* than the time that Sonic got possessed by a magic zoot suit from another Zone.

 

 

* except for Bunnie-in-disguise doing that "odd" dance, which... eh.... is it any more blatant than this (from issue 8)?