Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[- Eternal Paradox -]

Frank Miller...? 

 

...the hell are you doing aping his style in a family friendly comic? Miller's brand of crazy is not suitable for kids. Seriously. 

 

Top of my head says Miller's Responsible for one of the worse Batman comics I've ever read...

 

 

... Top of my head's riiiiiight...

 

... Not to derail the topic, but this is one the stupidest pieces of garbage I've ever read. Batman is a bald, unlike-able warmonger, the characters are flanderised and flat, and everything centres around glorifying this unlike-able bald bastard who isn't, in any sense of the word, Batman. Oh, and the ending has one of the greatest ass-pulls ever. Involving a volcano. And the art's so bad, almost a caricature but so goddamn inconsistent. And I'm unsure if the portrayal of women in this book is a parody, a statement about the life-standard of women in this world, or something bloody done for fapping. Probably the latter two.

 

...

... So yeah, it's no question Penders wants to write Sonic as a superhero comic complete with the unnecessary baggage that come with it (Night of One-thousand Sonics, one of my favourite stories because of the sheer lucidity of it, fits this trope to a T), and if Miller's his basis...

 

... Well, it's not hard for me to see why Pender's work is so bad.

[Tenko]

It's interesting to note, by the way, that I skipped more issues of SSS than anything else in my initial reading of StH, and I'll be skipping even more of them this time around.

Aww come on Bethany, you can do it!! What happened to the full re-read? Don't let all this talk put you off. How can you properly appreciate what we have had more recently, or now, if you don't wade through all that rubbish from the Penders era haha.

On a side note, I just finished reading the recent updates on all the Kirby stuff, with Marvel and Stan Lee etc. While I believe Kirby should get credit for his work, just as I did with Ken, I hope this thing doesn't start causing major trouble with the franchises like Ken did with Archie. I'm suprised he's not going on about it again actually on his Twitter and what not.

[Delta Starfire]

Top of my head says Miller's Responsible for one of the worse Batman comics I've ever read...

 

 

... Top of my head's riiiiiight...

 

... Not to derail the topic, but this is one the stupidest pieces of garbage I've ever read. Batman is a bald, unlike-able warmonger, the characters are flanderised and flat, and everything centres around glorifying this unlike-able bald bastard who isn't, in any sense of the word, Batman. Oh, and the ending has one of the greatest ass-pulls ever. Involving a volcano. And the art's so bad, almost a caricature but so goddamn inconsistent. And I'm unsure if the portrayal of women in this book is a parody, a statement about the life-standard of women in this world, or something bloody done for fapping. Probably the latter two.

 

...

... So yeah, it's no question Penders wants to write Sonic as a superhero comic complete with the unnecessary baggage that come with it (Night of One-thousand Sonics, one of my favourite stories because of the sheer lucidity of it, fits this trope to a T), and if Miller's his basis...

 

... Well, it's not hard for me to see why Pender's work is so bad.

 

From my limited experience of Miller's work (and it's limited because of this understanding -- I have no interest in writers who are flagrantly misogynistic), I'm given to understand that he usually portrays women very negatively, even going so far as to direct artists to include lots of "ass shots" in his scripts. Because, y'know, that's what we're for. Eye candy for men. 

 

 

Aww come on Bethany, you can do it!! What happened to the full re-read? Don't let all this talk put you off. How can you properly appreciate what we have had more recently, or now, if you don't wade through all that rubbish from the Penders era haha.

On a side note, I just finished reading the recent updates on all the Kirby stuff, with Marvel and Stan Lee etc. While I believe Kirby should get credit for his work, just as I did with Ken, I hope this thing doesn't start causing major trouble with the franchises like Ken did with Archie. I'm suprised he's not going on about it again actually on his Twitter and what not.

 

I never said it was a "full" re-read. Moreover, I think I can only stand to read Sally Moon the once... And I say this as someone who likes Sailor Moon. It was a painful parody/homage. 

[Sunwalker]

Now, here's where my ignorance as far as Archie's history shows: Just what was the story of Many Hands? It sounds like a pseudonym for multiple people, a la Alan Smithee, but my knowledge of the Penders era largely stems from this and the Archie thread. Could someone enlighten me? I only ask half-heartedly, because dredging up memories of such an artist sounds more cruel than anything.

"Many Hands" is a pseudonym for various artists working together on a single story, usually because of a pressing deadline.

Archie wasn't the first publisher to use it. Marvel had its own "Many Hands" back in the 70's and 80's:

http://comicbookdb.com/creator.php?ID=2152

http://marvel.wikia.com/Many_Hands

[biznizz]

@Eternal Paradox. There's a reason I have Batman Year One & Dark Knight Returns on my shelf and not DKSA or ASBARTBW.

Or, god forbid, Holy Terror.

[Jason Berry]

So who's worse? Penders or Miller? 

[DarkLight]

As a writer, or as a person?

 

Though either way, it's kind of a close call.

[biznizz]

Hard to say.

Miller is a xenophobic, misogynistic bigot who's all 'Murca!, whores, repetition, "The reason my stuff sucks now is because ITS A PARODY!", repetition, tits n ass, repetition, and thinks he's got connections in Hollywood (his Robocop scripts for 2 & 3 were apparently garbage even before the rewrites, he owes Zack Snyder & Robert Rodriguez for 300 & Sin City's successes, and completely sh*t all over the Spirit with the movie which was so bad that I'm sure Will Eisner is spinning in his grave).

Penders... is Penders, with all his antics detailed much more succulently in earlier posts in this thread.

So....

Personal opinion? I find Miller more repugnant with Penders not that far behind. IF ONLY because Penders has never insinuated that ALL Muslims are terrorists waiting to happen & we have to stop them from destroying the Free World.

[QuantumEdge]

I never thought I'd say this, but I think you made Penders seem like a decent human being with that comparison Biznizz

 

EDIT: Jeez, you weren't kidding about that Spirit movie...

[horridus]

Hmmm, Miller or Penders.... it's a tougher call than you'd think. 

 

Let's be clear; as has been stated over and over again, Miller is pretty much a pig. While he did indeed create some really amazing, definitive work in his day, post 9/11 the guy just lost it, and all of the worst traits he ever had, ones that had been bubbling under the surface for a while now, came out in full fore, and he never was able to recover.

 

Penders however... Penders exhibits a few of the same traits, though far more dialed down. When writing 'Girls Rule', each story ends either in failure, loss or ambiguity; for a book meant to celebrate the female characters of the comic, there's not a lot really to celebrate, and then there's his rather infamous line concerning Lupe 'taking the bullet' via Roboticization by stating he wanted to show that "even a woman" was capable of such self-sacrifice. There is also the fact that his writing and general characterization of Sally heavily derailed her into a soppy, sobbing mess towards the end of his career, as someone who would let her father dictate her life no matter her objections and no matter to the fact that she was the only reason he got to be king again, and in her mini-series Penders ultimately made it more about Geoffrey St. John than her, even hastily setting up a ship between the two to 'reward' him. 

 

Similarly, he has made some very questionable choices; he has admitted he only built up Vector's character so that Julie could beat on him, and then proceeded to write him speaking in excessive 'street' slang, as if to imply him as a stand in for an African-American. Furthermore, he stated he raised the technology level of the Kingdom of Acorn to make them more 'interesting'... so to him, a civilization's worth is based entirely on its tech level?? He displays further eurocentric attitudes via the Echidna; he displays them as generically sci-fi western despite being an Australian creature, and while he saw fit to introduce the Medieval England flavored Mercia sans any of the horribleness of its source, he made the Felidae of Cat Country out to be primitive, de-evolved savages who seem like Mobian neanderthals... this for jungle dwelling tribals whose culture seems to be a mishmash of Africa and Mesoamerica, and who are not at all portrayed sympathetically even in the face of their resisting Echidna encroachment. To say nothing of his various statements relating to the Poem Incident and staunch refusal to accept why Jewish people would be upset, even as Jewish people laid it out for him. And then there was the time he said to a black teenager that he could not appreciate the irony of saying 'They All Look Alike' with regards to his characters at his age... 

 

Oh, and then there are his excuses for why Rotor and Mace are gay; one is shy and awkward, and the other gets along with ladies real well! YEah, nothing questionable about THAT. 

 

Penders likes to try and sell himself as some kind of inclusive, uber-progressive sort, but his statements, actions and works do not really paint this picture of him, and reading deeper into it can reveal some pretty ugly logic. 

 

Ultimately I agree with the others here; Miller is far more vile, given that for all that is wrong with Penders, he has neither slathered his fetishes over everything and spouted off patently racist thinking as Miller has done. It's a close race, mind you, as I honestly think Penders is one VERY bad day away from making similar statements, but in the end... he's just an annoying douche. Miller is an annoying BIGOTED douche, and as such, takes the douche-Gold. 

[Killtank]

Let's be frank; no matter who drew that one, it was gonna suck. Spaz, Axer, Butler... any of them could have been on their A-game, with the best colorists available, and it would STILL be infamous as the Dumbest Thing Ever. 

 

Spot on about him later on though, sadly. He just could not do Modern Sonic's quills, like at all. 

 

I'm not a fan of Art's work, but his penciling is far from the worst thing about this issue. I don't think he's a bad artist, but, like many have said already, he just was not able to successfully adapt to Sonic's modern design. 

 

I'm glad you mentioned what happened between Locke and Rouge in that issue, horridus. That was very awkward for me to read, and it makes me wonder just what Ken was thinking. I know now that Rouge is approximately the same age as many of the main cast, but it was hard for that fact to register with me. Beforehand I made the assumption that she was much older than everyone else. It felt like every actor who voiced her made her out to be much older than Sonic and his friends. Regardless of what I knew back then, it's still an uncomfortable scene to revisit now that I know more about Rouge as a character. I can't believe or imagine that Ken would have written that scene with the idea of maintaining her official age. However, I'm not entirely sure I know what Ken is capable of doing, so I'm just assuming everything came together with the best intentions. 

 

I can say for sure that issues #151 and #152 turned me off the comics altogether until Ian later became head writer. I've always wanted to know more about the story behind "Sonic's Angels" from #152. Why was it penciled by two different artists with two clashing styles? It's such a jarring transition to go from Dubs to Al Bigley. What happened here? Was it an issue with the deadline? 

[horridus]

As I said, I think he envisioned her as being thirty... course, even with THAT in mind, it makes her later flirting with Evil Sonic just as creepy. So she's either eighteen and Locke likes 'em REAL young, or she's thirty and has no problem with teenagers. It's just horrid from every available angle. 

 

And it gets really creepy when you consider that Ken based Locke off his own father, so closely that when he died of cancer he had Locke go out the same way. Why the hell would he even TRY to envision pairing off Rouge with someone so closely derived from his own father???

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Everyone, we might as well look at the facts that no matter what the angle, It just wasn't thought out plain and simple. Honestly at this point and some of the other things that was seen in the comic at the time such as Sally obeying every single order that was given from her father who was not clearly well at the time and being stuck in his old ways of ruling and other things, Is it really that surprising that something as stupid as Rouge and Locke was in one of the stupidest ideas for a landmark issue?

 

Even if Rouge was in her 30's when Penders was writing that, Locke must have easily been in his 50's or 60's or even late 60's at this point if I had to guess so Rouge being in her 30s still wouldn't make the situation much better.

[horridus]

I always figured him to be roughly in his forties or so, honestly. 

 

But yeah. You wonder why I keep going back to this? I'm just THAT astounded that somebody could try something like this while clearly putting so little thought into just how wrong it would come off. 

 

And yes, it's Penders, but still.... it's just plain baffling. 

[Your Vest Friend]

he has admitted he only built up Vector's character so that Julie could beat on him, and then proceeded to write him speaking in excessive 'street' slang, as if to imply him as a stand in for an African-American.

 

Yeah, Penders piled a lot of shit on other characters (not just Vector, although he did get a lion's share of it) for the sake of glorifying Julie-Su's character. Kinda sickening.

 

And yet, the biggest irony I see is that Penders writing the Chaotix into his stories so often, even if it was more for just glorifying the Echidnas in the end, is what got me to discover the Chaotix in the first place. Fortunately, Sonic Team decided that some of them were deserving of a comeback so that it wasn't the only interpretation I had of them. 

[Gabz Girl]

Wait...Penders wanted to make a Sonic manga reboot? o__o Lemme guess, was it going to look something like this?

 

 

Or this??

 

 

Thank GOD that never came to fruition then!

[SenEDDtor Missile]

 

 

Thank GOD that never came to fruition then!

 

For a second there I thought Julie-Su's hair was a shiny pointy metal thing XD.

[Delta Starfire]

Heh. I met the Chaotix in the very first issue of StC that I read, and their personalities there were way closer to their game personalities than in StH, at least during the Penders era. Reading StH was a bit jarring when I met the Chaotix.

[Your Vest Friend]

Wait...Penders wanted to make a Sonic manga reboot? o__o Lemme guess, was it going to look something like this?

 

*snip for size*

 

Or this??

 

*snip for size*

 

Thank GOD that never came to fruition then!

 

 

Oh, you missed the manga reboot concept art posted? Lemme post it for you.

 

 

For a second there I thought Julie-Su's hair was a shiny pointy metal thing XD.

 

...That's Amy Rose.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

 

...That's Amy Rose

...Oh. I couldn't tell because the front quill/hair looked similar to Julie-Su's Wig Hair.

[Big Panda]

If that manga thing was intended to be a reboot, why does it clearly say "originally intended to be an alternate timeline"?

[horridus]

Honestly? I think its because Penders is trying to rewrite reality. He has accused Flynn of ripping him off before, so honestly? Maybe he's trying to make it seem he had the idea before Flynn, nevermind that the reboot going down the way it did was entirely because of Penders...

[Your Vest Friend]

Heh. I met the Chaotix in the very first issue of StC that I read, and their personalities there were way closer to their game personalities than in StH, at least during the Penders era. Reading StH was a bit jarring when I met the Chaotix.

For the most part I can somewhat agree. However, Vector really was an oddball because StC portrayed him as way more serious and "genius" than Knuckles Chaotix ever inferred. Good on it for predicting the leadership role, though.

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

Y'know, the thing I could never get over with the echidnas is how a large chunk of them appeared as Knuckles with a wig. I get that, in the case of Lara-Su etc., they need to make them more feminine somehow, but it's just the laziest possible way of doing so, outside of just putting girly eyelashes on Knuckles.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Ya know, If Spaz was at least going to be the artist for the manga universe, I wouldn't mind as I quite honestly like those manga designs he created that was shown above but as for Penders rebooting it into a manga? It sounds very stupid to me since it sounds like that A.It would be coming out of no where and B.requires having to buy a issue of a completely separate Sonic series to learn about the reboot. At least when Ian did the reboot, he had the sense to have the final part of Worlds Collide take place in Sonic Issue 251 so subscribers and regulars who only pick up StH will know that Eggman screwed up Sonic's chaos control leading to the reboot. 

Y'know, the thing I could never get over with the echidnas is how a large chunk of them appeared as Knuckles with a wig. I get that, in the case of Lara-Su etc., they need to make them more feminine somehow, but it's just the laziest possible way of doing so, outside of just putting girly eyelashes on Knuckles.

Oh no, According to Ken, none of his characters have any design relation to Knuckles, despite any proof that people show him.

 

And yes, he has actually said none of his designs are related to Knuckles even when he got presented with two different pictures that shows Knuckles' kind side by side. -facepalm-