Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Ryannumber1gamer]

3 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

I didn't even think that he would even care about the movie...

Penders had been trying to get both a Sonic movie and a Knuckles movie off the ground for years, fucking over Ben Hurst's attempt to get a SatAM movie made in his attempts to do so. Another Sonic movie being greenlit and successful is a gigantic blow to his overinflated ego, especially when he continually insists that only the comics (his in particular) would work for a movie.

10 hours ago, Stasis said:

As good as a confirmation this is, because it's Ian saying it Penders won't give a shit. 

Penders won't give a shit because it's Ian saying it outright, he won't give a shit because he knows he's wrong, and that he can't use Shade. The Chronicles case is not remotely like the Archie case, it got thrown out multiple times over, not even getting far enough to reach a courtroom. Even @Adamis has said that Penders has just this utterly ridiculously roundabout idea that just because SEGA hasn't used Shade in awhile, somehow that == them having surrendered rights to her, which is obviously ridiculous, and comes off more like he's just playing a dumbass game of chicken with them. Ian is right to just answer so bluntly about it.

[Rabbitearsblog]

9 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Penders won't give a shit because it's Ian saying it outright, he won't give a shit because he knows he's wrong, and that he can't use Shade. The Chronicles case is not remotely like the Archie case, it got thrown out multiple times over, not even getting far enough to reach a courtroom. Even @Adamis has said that Penders knows full well that he has absolutely zero claim to Shade, and is basically just playing chicken. Ian responding so bluntly and matter of factly is 100% on point here.

Even Ian is getting sick and tired of Penders...

[Zaysho]

Some things worth noting about the confirmation, I guess, but Shade/Chronicles were probably* never really off the table, but they were probably waiting for things to cool after the lawsuits.

*This is obviously speculative just from observations of the old comic; I don't know if Ian's ever formally talked about it

Reboot Archie, from what I understand, more or less had Chronicles stuff in the backdrop of Angel Island, from the weird tech Knuckles uses for traps to the references to other Gizoids. I believe even Naugus's new backstory was probably partially inspired by some of the background lore of Chronicles (the Trolls being referred to as the Second Great Civilization--the Nocturnus are the Fourth) so Ian was likely building toward this but only held off due to then tensions with Penders and waiting for the go-ahead from Sega. Sega was also breathing down Archie's neck at the time so I don't think they wouldn't have picked up on this either. It wasn't the Gabrie days anymore.

At this point I think it's just a matter of if Sega cares enough to use her, headaches or no. She's from a game not a lot of people probably played or would care about at this point, Sonic Team had nothing to do with her creation (as far as I know, compared to Sticks), she was never an established part of the cast in a way that she could just be slotted into IDW without readapting or changing her story. IDW isn't like Archie with a million footnotes to go play games you probably can't even buy (see the entirety of "Shadow Fall") or heavily referencing the past unless absolutely necessary. It's hard to say if she'd be worth the effort and dealing with the rigmarole with Sega. I wouldn't complain though.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

27 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

At this point I think it's just a matter of if Sega cares enough to use her, headaches or no. She's from a game not a lot of people probably played or would care about at this point, Sonic Team had nothing to do with her creation (as far as I know, compared to Sticks), she was never an established part of the cast in a way that she could just be slotted into IDW without readapting or changing her story. IDW isn't like Archie with a million footnotes to go play games you probably can't even buy (see the entirety of "Shadow Fall") or heavily referencing the past unless absolutely necessary. It's hard to say if she'd be worth the effort and dealing with the rigmarole with Sega. I wouldn't complain though.

I would say even if SEGA had no plans to use Shade, they'd probably still at least send a Cease and Desist if it got far enough with Penders using her in a paid for product (hell, that could still happen with TL-SC Beginnings given it literally uses SEGA characters in a paid for product). In usage or not, I doubt SEGA would stand to have one of their characters being used in a for-profit product by someone falsely claiming ownership of said character. If they didn't, it would just open the floodgates for other people to come in and do the same thing, with other, more popular characters. 

In all honesty, I felt like the Scourge situation was always just that kind of disaster waiting to happen. Like, as ThanksKenPenders mentioned multiple times over, even if the project had gone smoothly, there was no issues with the creative team, and it did come out, there's no telling if SEGA would actually leave it be or not, and there was no telling if Penders could get anyone picking up the license to Scourge in legal hot water with SEGA because again - Scourge's legality is in such a grey area that it just seems doubtful that SEGA would leave it alone, either on basis that Scourge is an Evil Sonic, or on the basis that Scourge still clearly looks like Sonic, just specifically movie Sonic this time. Just because SEGA have wiped their hands of the affair for now doesn't mean they aren't gonna intervene when an actual product releases that are making usage of their characters, designs, and concepts that's trying to make cash.

[PublicEnemy1]

37 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

At this point I think it's just a matter of if Sega cares enough to use her, headaches or no. She's from a game not a lot of people probably played or would care about at this point, Sonic Team had nothing to do with her creation (as far as I know, compared to Sticks), she was never an established part of the cast in a way that she could just be slotted into IDW without readapting or changing her story. IDW isn't like Archie with a million footnotes to go play games you probably can't even buy (see the entirety of "Shadow Fall") or heavily referencing the past unless absolutely necessary. It's hard to say if she'd be worth the effort and dealing with the rigmarole with Sega. I wouldn't complain though.

Even disregarding the potential headaches, given that SEGA is dead set on keeping Knuckles as the last echidna and Chronicles was never really canon in the first place, I don't see them letting Ian even touch anything from that game given how strict they've been with IDW.

[Rabbitearsblog]

9 minutes ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

Even disregarding the potential headaches, given that SEGA is dead set on keeping Knuckles as the last echidna and Chronicles was never really canon in the first place, I don't see them letting Ian even touch anything from that game given how strict they've been with IDW.

Also, Chronicles is not a well known game, so SEGA probably think that it's not much of a big deal whether or not anyone actually cares about Shade.

[Zaysho]

35 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I would say even if SEGA had no plans to use Shade, they'd probably still at least send a Cease and Desist if it got far enough with Penders using her in a paid for product (hell, that could still happen with TL-SC Beginnings given it literally uses SEGA characters in a paid for product).

I agree with what you're saying; I was mostly just going with the idea that Shade was probably never off the table and just had some thoughts on Archie and what I think Ian might have had planned before the book got canceled.

I'm honestly not sure if Penders is quite stupid enough to just take Shade because he doesn't own her; him being a dishonest idiot trying to throw his weight around on Twitter about it by attacking Ian doesn't change that fact. It's why he's doing those lazy workarounds like referring to "Shade" as a codename.

 

...of course I say that and he plans to resell pirated copies of a dead comic so I'm clearly giving him way more credit than he deserves.

And you're probably right about the Scourge thing too; it was never going to end well.

[horridus]

3 hours ago, Zaysho said:

...of course I say that and he plans to resell pirated copies of a dead comic so I'm clearly giving him way more credit than he deserves.

It IS impressive how the most consistent thing about Penders is that somehow, he always, always finds a way to lower the bar. Like, without fail, he finds new ways to disappoint. With UNCANNY precision. 

[GentlemanX]

Ian made it clear at the time that Sega was perfectly happy to let Archie utilize Sonic Chronicles content in the post-reboot stories; Archie was the one that had cold feet about it because they were worried about Penders throwing a fit about it. While it's certainly possible that's still true, it's also very much possible that it's not. Post-reboot, Ian was still allowed to use the Freedom Fighters and other AOSTH/SatAM content, Mighty and Ray, the Hooligans, Chaos and Tikal, have Shadow friends with the other members of Team Dark, and more. None of that is true now. You can argue that the Western content is because of Archie's contract and the Classic content is because of Mania, but Chaos, Tikal, and Shadow prove that what was fine for Modern content in Archie may no longer be the case for IDW. So even though Sega was fine with Ian using Chronicles stuff post-reboot, he may not be able to now.

Completely separate from that though, Ian has also made it clear that Chronicles is not canon to the games. Sega doesn't consider the events of the game to have happened, and even if they were to happen eventually the two year time skip means the game is permanently in the future. IF IDW had access to Chronicles content, it'd likely be incorporated very differently than simply having the events of the game being implied to have happened off panel as has been the case with other titles like SA1, SA2, Heroes, Generations, Forces, etc. Maybe that'd be in the form of a straight adaptation? Maybe the characters would be introduced in a completely different story? I don't know and I doubt Ian or Evan know either.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Honestly, IDW being given the green light to make a Chronicles adaptation would be the biggest, most glorious middle finger they could give to Penders.

Actually makes me want it even more now…

[King Scoopa Koopa]

4 hours ago, Zaysho said:

...of course I say that and he plans to resell pirated copies of a dead comic so I'm clearly giving him way more credit than he deserves.

I thought that part was going to be free? Or am I thinking of something else?

[Zaysho]

1 minute ago, King Scoopa Koopa said:

I thought that part was going to be free? Or am I thinking of something else?

It's entirely possible that's a mix up on my part. I assumed he was selling stuff since he also mentioned a complete collection and other things.

[Adamis]

8 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Penders had been trying to get both a Sonic movie and a Knuckles movie off the ground for years, fucking over Ben Hurst's attempt to get a SatAM movie made in his attempts to do so. Another Sonic movie being greenlit and successful is a gigantic blow to his overinflated ego, especially when he continually insists that only the comics (his in particular) would work for a movie.

Penders won't give a shit because it's Ian saying it outright, he won't give a shit because he knows he's wrong, and that he can't use Shade. The Chronicles case is not remotely like the Archie case, it got thrown out multiple times over, not even getting far enough to reach a courtroom. Even @Adamis has said that Penders has just this utterly ridiculously roundabout idea that just because SEGA hasn't used Shade in awhile, somehow that == them having surrendered rights to her, which is obviously ridiculous, and comes off more like he's just playing a dumbass game of chicken with them. Ian is right to just answer so bluntly about it.

I tweeted this the other day : https://twitter.com/AdamisFox/status/1465060318451744770?s=20

[Ryannumber1gamer]

On 12/1/2021 at 10:34 AM, Adamis said:

I tweeted this the other day : https://twitter.com/AdamisFox/status/1465060318451744770?s=20

Almost because they didn’t need to fight for her rights because the suit was thrown out multiple times, meaning there quite literally wasn’t a fight to be had. I also don’t see how this argument doesn’t work against Penders either, there’s several characters he hasn’t used in nearly a decade like Scourge, or Elias. Why would this apply to Shade, but not other characters? 

I just don’t get these justifications he’s using, they don’t make sense to me.

[CertifiedNobody]

10 hours ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

Even disregarding the potential headaches, given that SEGA is dead set on keeping Knuckles as the last echidna and Chronicles was never really canon in the first place, I don't see them letting Ian even touch anything from that game given how strict they've been with IDW.

Chronicles' canonicity is dubious at best, but it can't be entirely disregarded either because it's directly tied to the Gizoid lore from Sonic Battle and Sonic Advance 3. Knuckles being the last Echidna isn't really much of an issue because the Echidnas are in in another dimension. It bends the rules about as much as Tikal's  spirit being around does.

I think the arguments for Chronicles being canon are much stronger than it not being canon, even if we can't find a good place in the timeline for it.

5 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Honestly, IDW being given the green light to make a Chronicles adaptation would be the biggest, most glorious middle finger they could give to Penders.

Actually makes me want it even more now…

I wonder if Penders would actually try to sue again or if he's aware enough to just complain on twitter about it and say that was just Ian and the Sega executives probably haven't even seen it.

[Zonic 2099]

If Penders did try to take legal action if Shade ever did pop up in the comic, I'd imagine SEGA would actually get involved. He got stupid lucky with Archie's legal team being so laughably incompetent. SEGA would no doubt go hard to defend their property even if they have no plans to use her for the foreseeable future.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

23 hours ago, Zonic 2099 said:

If Penders did try to take legal action if Shade ever did pop up in the comic, I'd imagine SEGA would actually get involved. He got stupid lucky with Archie's legal team being so laughably incompetent. SEGA would no doubt go hard to defend their property even if they have no plans to use her for the foreseeable future.

I imagine this would be the case. Again, even just using her is grounds to have SEGA go after him. This isn’t a fan work that’s being put out for the sake of art, it’s a for profit product. If SEGA don’t intervene if/when he actually has the nerve to go through with it, they’re basically establishing a precedent for anyone else to walk in and use their characters in whatever product they please without SEGA’s go ahead. There’s just zero way I can even see SEGA be willing to take that chance.

Same thing with The Lara-Su Chronicles: Beginnings - while Penders may own rights to the stories he wrote, he doesn’t have rights to any of the SEGA characters in them, and based off the leaks, they’re literally 1:1 with what we had in Archie Sonic. From what I see, unless the stories are heavily edited to remove the SEGA characters, which they seemingly aren’t, at best those stories are in a legal hellhole that stops Penders from reprinting them or any of his previous Sonic stores, in the exact same way that SEGA can’t reprint for example - Ian’s stories that involve Penders’ cast.

From what I imagine, they’re at a legal standstill because these stories now contain two entities owned with two separate copyrights that lock each other out without a full agreement from both parties. And maybe, just maybe if it was a fan product, Penders might skirt under SEGA’s watch, it being a for profit product including SEGA’s IP without permission to use them - to me at least, it would be just too much for SEGA not to combat. Not fighting unlicensed for profit use of their characters is just too dangerous in terms of the floodgates it would open up.

Penders is apparently stalling for time, hoping that waiting as long as he is will somehow let him slip under the watch of SEGA, but the simple truth is that time isn’t going to make a difference. SEGA have a vested interest in protecting their IPs and ensuring all for profit usage is licensed. Even with Chronicles not being very important anymore, and it’s continuity with the rest of the series being debated, it doesn’t change the simple facts that according to Ian himself -  SEGA owns this character (or is possibly sharing ownership with BioWare, no one knows) and they probably aren’t gonna let it slide, no matter how small the role is. In my opinion at least, it’s just far too dicey a risk on SEGA’s part.

[Nestor]

15 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

Sega doesn't consider the events of the game to have happened, and even if they were to happen eventually the two year time skip means the game is permanently in the future.

9 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

I think the arguments for Chronicles being canon are much stronger than it not being canon, even if we can't find a good place in the timeline for it.

Chronicles really doesn't have to be put in the future - the time skip could happen literally any time after Shadow the Hedgehog without affecting the games either side of it, particularly as there are very few references to time in any of the games post-Shadow.

Indeed, it would make a lot of sense to put Chronicles immediately before Sonic Unleashed with the unresolved cliffhanger leading directly into Unleashed - it would conveniently explain why Sonic begins that game with all the Chaos Emeralds, how Eggman amassed his huge space fleet and doomsday weapon, as well as giving Eggman a time-frame for developing his Interstellar Amusement Park (which he claims he has been working on for years).

While unlikely, if SEGA ever wanted to reintroduce Shade, they could just have Ian drop a mini-comic similar to the ones he did for Sonic Forces with Shade telling Knuckles post-Chronicles that she needed to go off and explore the world alone in order to catch up on the 4,000 years she missed and to find a place for herself or something, to explain where she's been all this time.

Alternatively, if SEGA were smart, they could say she'd been doing time-share with Knuckles guarding the Master Emerald whenever he's off doing other things to sidestep Knuckles seemingly ignoring his guardianship since Sonic Adventure 2.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, Nestor said:

Alternatively, if SEGA were smart, they could say she'd been doing time-share with Knuckles guarding the Master Emerald whenever he's off doing other things to sidestep Knuckles seemingly ignoring his guardianship since Sonic Adventure 2.

And yet people thought I was crazy when I brought the idea of using Shade for this back years ago.

[CertifiedNobody]

37 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

And yet people thought I was crazy when I brought the idea of using Shade for this back years ago.

I've just assumed they got Gemerl to do it.

[Razule]

There's already no way every Sonic game takes place in the same year and Forces alone takes place over takes place over seven months. What's another two years of characters not aging? Sonic and Eggman have already been fighting for decades after all (I know this was just an addition to the English script).

 

[CertifiedNobody]

3 hours ago, Razule said:

There's already no way every Sonic game takes place in the same year and Forces alone takes place over takes place over seven months. What's another two years of characters not aging? Sonic and Eggman have already been fighting for decades after all (I know this was just an addition to the English script).

 

I guess the "decades" line was just hyperbole.

[Leebo4]

If you want to talk about spin offs or a connected shared universe I had this idea

 

a spin off starring Jojo

 

as the main human character

With the first Trans led video game movie

[Kazhnuz]

23 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Chronicles' canonicity is dubious at best, but it can't be entirely disregarded either because it's directly tied to the Gizoid lore from Sonic Battle and Sonic Advance 3. Knuckles being the last Echidna isn't really much of an issue because the Echidnas are in in another dimension. It bends the rules about as much as Tikal's  spirit being around does.

I think the arguments for Chronicles being canon are much stronger than it not being canon, even if we can't find a good place in the timeline for it.

Canonicity kinda works the reverse : here Sonic Chronicles reusing elements of Battle show that Battle is canon to Chronicles, not the reverse.

TBH, the only real elements making something being "canon" or not is "does it is stated as canon or not". Elsewhere we're simply creating our own (head)canons (which isn't bad, but doesn't make it official). For the moment, we have kinda trustable source that said that Chronicles isn't really seen as canon by Sonic Team. It's still officially part of the IP, but for the moment, the status is still that they don't have it as part of their canon.

But and as Ryannumber1 said, it doesn't change that SEGA own the character. ( And maybe that Chronicles is simply set permanently 2 years into the IP future )

[Shaddy Zaphod]

The real question would be if, at the time it was written, there was any specific idea on ST's part of who the Fourth Great Civilization was.

Also,

1 hour ago, Leebo4 said:

If you want to talk about spin offs or a connected shared universe I had this idea

 

a spin off starring Jojo

 

as the main human character

With the first Trans led video game movie

This seems to be in the wrong thread. Or perhaps you should have made your own thread for it, with more detail and elaboration? It's not really related to the Penders nonsense and probably deserves a happier home than this thread.