Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[King Scoopa Koopa]

It occurs to me...

Is it just me, or does Penders seem to have a really cynical view of Sonic characters he didn't create, save for maybe Knuckles, if even him?

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

28 minutes ago, King Scoopa Koopa said:

It occurs to me...

Is it just me, or does Penders seem to have a really cynical view of Sonic characters he didn't create, save for maybe Knuckles, if even him?

That's because he was allowed to foist his wide range of ideas onto Knuckles, as opposed to Sonic who had more mandates protecting him from Ken's tomfoolery.

So of course he views Knuckles and his OCs as vastly superior. 

[horridus]

29 minutes ago, King Scoopa Koopa said:

It occurs to me...

Is it just me, or does Penders seem to have a really cynical view of Sonic characters he didn't create, save for maybe Knuckles, if even him?

Million dollar question- is it proper cynicism, or is it due to Penders being unwilling/incapable of actually thinking past his preconceived notions and actually engage with complexity in a meaningful way?

When outlining his view of Sonic, he had this to day-

Quote

 

When you stop and think how Sega looks at the character, he’s all ego and attitude. He thinks about number one. He can accept Tails because Tails is the subordinate junior assistant to his main act. He’d consider Sally nothing more than a fun to be with every now and then (if that) and a drag the rest of the time. His attitude towards Sally, and females in general, in probably much like that MTV-character in the movie She’s All That. The way he ditches the girl is so Sonic-like. (“You think all I want to do is spend my life with you? That’s cool and all, but I gotta go fight Robotnik! Later, babe!”)

I know I’m going to get into a lot of disagreement with people over this, but I’ve yet to hear anyone ever say “Y’know, he can be such an arrogant jerk, but he’s really quite lovable under all that!” They usually stop the comment after the word “jerk”.

In short, at the core of things he basically see's Sonic as a popular jerk sort, while dismissing the idea that there could be anything better or deeper than that. In short, the COMPLEXITY of the idea that for his flaws, Sonic is in fact a heroic and caring individual. His future plans for Sonic basically turned him into the protagonist for one of those hoary old 80s Sex Comedies.

Likewise, he justified trying to kill Sally off because he ultimately couldn't wrap his head around her as a leader in the field alongside Sonic. Something most people would have no trouble at all understanding, and his treatment of her seems to be a testament to his ideas of how children should/would be loyal and obedient to their parents no matter the circumstances. We see this repeated with Knuckles, who holds no animosity towards Locke despite the fact he really, really should.

In short? I'm not sure if it's actually cynicism, so much as Penders has a deeply, unfathomably narrow view of these characters and fiction in general.

Though I suppose in the end it makes little real difference given that it ends the same way regardless of the actual motive...

 

[Promethean0416]

2 hours ago, horridus said:

Despite it being the job he was hired for, one gets the impression with Penders that he actually really, really does not care for working with characters that weren't developed by him personally, and on top of that? He doesn't like to write Teenagers or especially children... even though these are literally what he is paid to do. When it comes to Tails though, he personally outlined his view that Sonic was only friends with him because Tails because Tails was his cheerleader. He's never actually seen Tails in any capacity beyond the most basic take of being a Kid Sidekick. While SatAM gets invoked here, it should be noted the show was developing him towards being a more independent hero. Penders however can't even imagine THAT much- for him Tails is just The Kid, and nothing more.

Yep, and when he does, he usually does so with outdated slang and phrases. Didn't he call Sally a "gal pal" at some point?

And yeah, he's presumably stuck in ye olde AoStH/SatAM days in regards to Tails. Anyway, that said, another update on the commission (adding Antoine this time around) and apparently LSC:

 

[babsiwuff]

6 hours ago, Promethean0416 said:

Yep, and when he does, he usually does so with outdated slang and phrases. Didn't he call Sally a "gal pal" at some point?

And yeah, he's presumably stuck in ye olde AoStH/SatAM days in regards to Tails. Anyway, that said, another update on the commission (adding Antoine this time around) and apparently LSC:

What’s with Antoine’s face?  Also, is anyone else noticing how he’s talking about drawing the characters based on how he personally interprets them?  But the way he sees them is completely off base with who they are.  

[Guergy]

 

21 hours ago, horridus said:

Despite it being the job he was hired for, one gets the impression with Penders that he actually really, really does not care for working with characters that weren't developed by him personally, and on top of that? He doesn't like to write Teenagers or especially children... even though these are literally what he is paid to do. When it comes to Tails though, he personally outlined his view that Sonic was only friends with him because Tails because Tails was his cheerleader. He's never actually seen Tails in any capacity beyond the most basic take of being a Kid Sidekick. While SatAM gets invoked here, it should be noted the show was developing him towards being a more independent hero. Penders however can't even imagine THAT much- for him Tails is just The Kid, and nothing more.

That sad part about that is he can be a decent writer but he needs someone to reign him in. I know that not every writer likes working with editors but you need to have someone watching your back.  

---

 

 

19 hours ago, horridus said:

Million dollar question- is it proper cynicism, or is it due to Penders being unwilling/incapable of actually thinking past his preconceived notions and actually engage with complexity in a meaningful way?

When outlining his view of Sonic, he had this to day-

In short, at the core of things he basically see's Sonic as a popular jerk sort, while dismissing the idea that there could be anything better or deeper than that. In short, the COMPLEXITY of the idea that for his flaws, Sonic is in fact a heroic and caring individual. His future plans for Sonic basically turned him into the protagonist for one of those hoary old 80s Sex Comedies.

Likewise, he justified trying to kill Sally off because he ultimately couldn't wrap his head around her as a leader in the field alongside Sonic. Something most people would have no trouble at all understanding, and his treatment of her seems to be a testament to his ideas of how children should/would be loyal and obedient to their parents no matter the circumstances. We see this repeated with Knuckles, who holds no animosity towards Locke despite the fact he really, really should.

In short? I'm not sure if it's actually cynicism, so much as Penders has a deeply, unfathomably narrow view of these characters and fiction in general.

Though I suppose in the end it makes little real difference given that it ends the same way regardless of the actual motive...

That is really enlightening to hear. I know Penders just like most writers has his biases but these characters do have potential. Even some of his own characters have potential. Some characters never realize their potential until a good writer gives them a good story. 

[Promethean0416]

12 hours ago, babsiwuff said:

What’s with Antoine’s face?  Also, is anyone else noticing how he’s talking about drawing the characters based on how he personally interprets them?  But the way he sees them is completely off base with who they are.  

Not sure, but I don't recall him ever wearing a beret at all in any media (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Anyway, commission/semi-project update, this time with 2 new characters (time to play "Where's Waldo"):

Metal Sonic...wow. Definitely too prominent of a top spine there, almost like wearing an oversized pointy cap.

And as for his soon-to-be announcement: "Coming soon in 20XX".

Edited February 21, 2023 by Promethean0416
Adding.

[horridus]

2 hours ago, Promethean0416 said:

Not sure, but I don't recall him ever wearing a beret at all in any media (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

Anyway, commission/semi-project update, this time with 2 new characters (time to play "Where's Waldo"):

Metal Sonic...wow. Definitely too prominent of a top spine there, almost like wearing an oversized pointy cap.

And as for his soon-to-be announcement: "Coming soon in 20XX".

Okay, it's official- Penders is absolutely just making it up as he goes along. That Metal Sonic looks like garbage and is blatantly there just to take up space. There's no planning involved with this at all, and if there is then that's just even sadder.

I can only pray that the commissioner just tossed money at him and said 'Go Nuts'.

[Promethean0416]

39 minutes ago, horridus said:

Okay, it's official- Penders is absolutely just making it up as he goes along. That Metal Sonic looks like garbage and is blatantly there just to take up space. There's no planning involved with this at all, and if there is then that's just even sadder.

I can only pray that the commissioner just tossed money at him and said 'Go Nuts'.

Yep, and it's a shame he won't take criticism on it (possibly yet), guess we'll see if the mystery commissioner notices and asks for a fix or a wait-and-see when the commission is 100% finished.

 

[babsiwuff]

5 hours ago, horridus said:

Okay, it's official- Penders is absolutely just making it up as he goes along. That Metal Sonic looks like garbage and is blatantly there just to take up space. There's no planning involved with this at all, and if there is then that's just even sadder.

I can only pray that the commissioner just tossed money at him and said 'Go Nuts'.

Why is Lara Su even there?  The characters are all their usual ages, which means she shouldn’t even be born yet.  This is so bizarre.

I’m also still in the camp that he doesn’t have commissioners; he just makes this crap up, to sell prints.  I mean, literally the only edit he made was to make Tails look less important.

[The Tenth Doctor]

With Metal, its certainly the top spine thats the worst but his eyes bug me. He's given them a strange outline, making them appear like they are pushed back further into his head as well as giving him two seperate eyes rather than the 'Unieye' we all know. The muzzle is hardly seeable but he should fix that with inking. Should being the relative term though.

[Promethean0416]

8 hours ago, babsiwuff said:

Why is Lara Su even there?  The characters are all their usual ages, which means she shouldn’t even be born yet.  This is so bizarre.

I’m also still in the camp that he doesn’t have commissioners; he just makes this crap up, to sell prints.  I mean, literally the only edit he made was to make Tails look less important.

Just going to go with "Time Travel" on that one...

On that, it is known that he does still get commissions, as evidenced from that one from a couple of years ago who he did the splash page "What If?" with Sonic, Knuckles, and Bunnie for someone, who posted that very negative review from the whole process. Though it seems it is more rare these days.

But yes, this one seems pretty random for a standard commission, but that's just me...

Anyway, mark your calendars if you are planning to go to WonderCon, because he will be there too selling this, apparently:

 

[Guergy]

On 2/20/2023 at 3:19 AM, Promethean0416 said:

Yep, and when he does, he usually does so with outdated slang and phrases. Didn't he call Sally a "gal pal" at some point?

And yeah, he's presumably stuck in ye olde AoStH/SatAM days in regards to Tails. Anyway, that said, another update on the commission (adding Antoine this time around) and apparently LSC:

I am a little conflicted. On one hand, it is a classic Archie Sonic art. On the other hand, it is somewhat off model. 

[Leebo4]

11 hours ago, Promethean0416 said:

Just going to go with "Time Travel" on that one...

On that, it is known that he does still get commissions, as evidenced from that one from a couple of years ago who he did the splash page "What If?" with Sonic, Knuckles, and Bunnie for someone, who posted that very negative review from the whole process. Though it seems it is more rare these days.

But yes, this one seems pretty random for a standard commission, but that's just me...

Anyway, mark your calendars if you are planning to go to WonderCon, because he will be there too selling this, apparently:

What what if page? Can anyone help find it please?

Never mind found it

[babsiwuff]

Okay, so he repositioned the characters and added Snivelly, and I’ll have nightmares about that for a while.  

I have a question.  He’s hand drawing this on paper, and there’s Archie paper grids..but he’s clearly moving and repositioning them digitally.  
I thought the Archie paper was leftover from his time there, but looks like he’s digitally got the template on another layer.  How’s he going to keep up this facade of having all this paper left over if he has to ink this by hand like he usually does?

[The Tenth Doctor]

Oh God I forgot he drew Snively like that. 

[Promethean0416]

Not sure if there's an answer to that, he may have sources to continue getting materials for commissions.

Regarding the commission update, definitely not much improvement, and yeah, Snively looks horrendous in design. Then again, this is similar to how he was drawn in his Sonic movie pitch, so maybe he decided to go off that or if he actually drew him at some point during his freelancing tenure in Archie? 

 

[horridus]

1 hour ago, Promethean0416 said:

Not sure if there's an answer to that, he may have sources to continue getting materials for commissions.

Regarding the commission update, definitely not much improvement, and yeah, Snively looks horrendous in design. Then again, this is similar to how he was drawn in his Sonic movie pitch, so maybe he decided to go off that or if he actually drew him at some point during his freelancing tenure in Archie? 

The only time I can remember Penders drawing Snively, off the top of my head, was in Brave New World-

As you can see, the image of Snively in the commission is awful similar to Snively's depiction here, with the defined cheekbones and weirdly supple lips. Another victim of Penders indecisiveness as to where these characters are meant to fall in terms of the cartoony-realistic scale of things.

[babsiwuff]

2 hours ago, horridus said:

The only time I can remember Penders drawing Snively, off the top of my head, was in Brave New World-

As you can see, the image of Snively in the commission is awful similar to Snively's depiction here, with the defined cheekbones and weirdly supple lips. Another victim of Penders indecisiveness as to where these characters are meant to fall in terms of the cartoony-realistic scale of things.

I remember reading a few of Ken’s Sonic stories way back when I used to go over to Bob Repas’ house.  I remember how he drew Snivelly and it REALLY drove me off liking the Archie series, which I was lukewarm about to begin with.

[Indigo Rush]

3 hours ago, horridus said:

 

 

nightmare nightmare this is actually the demon of my nightmares if I saw this gremlin in my house I would BURN tHE HOUSE DOWN

[Mega]

The thing that disgusts me about Ken's view of Sonic is that... it's not even in-character for SatAM, which he drew "inspiration" from?

SatAM Sonic is one of the most emotionally vulnerable, kindhearted versions of Sonic out there. Yes, he's kind of a prick to Antoine, and he has a lot of bravado and boastfulness, but he's also very forgiving. Griff stole the power rock? Sonic compromised, splitting it in half, and letting Griff take half of it to save his home. Bunnie saves his life? He thanks her rather than going "I coulda handled that robo-phony!" He loves his uncle, loves his friends, and as much as he boasts about himself, he's just as quick to uplift those that are less sure of themselves, like Rotor.

He's just an all around cool guy who happens to be written as a cheesy 90's protagonist on a surface level, and his dated slang and 'tude can overshadow the softer aspects of his personality.

SatAM Sonic isn't the kinda guy who sees Tails as "just a kid." He went up to bat for Tails going on missions despite his age. He tries to teach him how to be a Freedom Fighter. He doesn't see Sal as just a fling- she means the world to him, even if he can be kinda dumb about it in episodes like Warp Sonic.

I've said it before, but Ken fundamentally does not Get most of the SatAM characterization. His take on King Acorn made him into such an awful person, salvaged only by Karl Bollers who I believe made him kinder to Sonic during some of his stories? Ken couldn't write Sally for beans from what I remember, and Antoine improved in Archie, but it seemed like eventually they retconned his earlier cowardice away so that he no longer grew past his cowardice but was always brave.

Just... gah. I HAVE OPINIONS. SatAM means a lot to me (tho I hate SatAM Antoine so I will 100% agree that Archie overall handled him better, haha.)

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Sometimes, I think he just doesn't get people, fictional or otherwise.

[babsiwuff]

5 hours ago, Mega said:

The thing that disgusts me about Ken's view of Sonic is that... it's not even in-character for SatAM, which he drew "inspiration" from?

SatAM Sonic is one of the most emotionally vulnerable, kindhearted versions of Sonic out there. Yes, he's kind of a prick to Antoine, and he has a lot of bravado and boastfulness, but he's also very forgiving. Griff stole the power rock? Sonic compromised, splitting it in half, and letting Griff take half of it to save his home. Bunnie saves his life? He thanks her rather than going "I coulda handled that robo-phony!" He loves his uncle, loves his friends, and as much as he boasts about himself, he's just as quick to uplift those that are less sure of themselves, like Rotor.

He's just an all around cool guy who happens to be written as a cheesy 90's protagonist on a surface level, and his dated slang and 'tude can overshadow the softer aspects of his personality.

SatAM Sonic isn't the kinda guy who sees Tails as "just a kid." He went up to bat for Tails going on missions despite his age. He tries to teach him how to be a Freedom Fighter. He doesn't see Sal as just a fling- she means the world to him, even if he can be kinda dumb about it in episodes like Warp Sonic.

I've said it before, but Ken fundamentally does not Get most of the SatAM characterization. His take on King Acorn made him into such an awful person, salvaged only by Karl Bollers who I believe made him kinder to Sonic during some of his stories? Ken couldn't write Sally for beans from what I remember, and Antoine improved in Archie, but it seemed like eventually they retconned his earlier cowardice away so that he no longer grew past his cowardice but was always brave.

Just... gah. I HAVE OPINIONS. SatAM means a lot to me (tho I hate SatAM Antoine so I will 100% agree that Archie overall handled him better, haha.)

I didn’t watch SatAM until years later.  Where I lived, they put it on at a super early time on Saturdays, and I didn’t wake up until 10 am so I watched the Nicktoons instead.  I didn’t know SatAM even had a following until I became a furry and saw all these older guys in their 30s and 40s going nuts over Bunnie Rabbot.  (Bob Repas was one of these guys and that’s how I met Ken.)

Outside of that though, I always saw the Archie comic as outdated.  It centred around a sliver of a show that only lasted two seasons, excluded newer characters like Cream and Tikal, and with all the OCs like skunks and cats and a million echidnas, it gradually turned into a furry comic that people bought alongside their latest issues of Furrlough or Genus.

Ken’s writing and art just made things more absurd, not just with the drama, but with how weirdly domestic things got.  I never liked the idea of Sonic as a king, and the transformations of Bunnie and Antoine just made them generic furry characters, and he pretty much shoved Tails aside or watered down his story arcs. Then there was the thing with Rotor, which made no sense.  He just felt Rotor should be gay because he was quiet.

That’s my take/history on the comics.  As for Ken himself, as I’ve mentioned before, it’s good that other people out there see how awful he is both as a person and as a writer/artist.  He needs to stay the hell away from the entire Sonic franchise.
 

[horridus]

8 hours ago, Mega said:

The thing that disgusts me about Ken's view of Sonic is that... it's not even in-character for SatAM, which he drew "inspiration" from?

SatAM Sonic is one of the most emotionally vulnerable, kindhearted versions of Sonic out there. Yes, he's kind of a prick to Antoine, and he has a lot of bravado and boastfulness, but he's also very forgiving. Griff stole the power rock? Sonic compromised, splitting it in half, and letting Griff take half of it to save his home. Bunnie saves his life? He thanks her rather than going "I coulda handled that robo-phony!" He loves his uncle, loves his friends, and as much as he boasts about himself, he's just as quick to uplift those that are less sure of themselves, like Rotor.

He's just an all around cool guy who happens to be written as a cheesy 90's protagonist on a surface level, and his dated slang and 'tude can overshadow the softer aspects of his personality.

SatAM Sonic isn't the kinda guy who sees Tails as "just a kid." He went up to bat for Tails going on missions despite his age. He tries to teach him how to be a Freedom Fighter. He doesn't see Sal as just a fling- she means the world to him, even if he can be kinda dumb about it in episodes like Warp Sonic.

I've said it before, but Ken fundamentally does not Get most of the SatAM characterization. His take on King Acorn made him into such an awful person, salvaged only by Karl Bollers who I believe made him kinder to Sonic during some of his stories? Ken couldn't write Sally for beans from what I remember, and Antoine improved in Archie, but it seemed like eventually they retconned his earlier cowardice away so that he no longer grew past his cowardice but was always brave.

Just... gah. I HAVE OPINIONS. SatAM means a lot to me (tho I hate SatAM Antoine so I will 100% agree that Archie overall handled him better, haha.)

I suspect that Penders in general doesn't really understand a lot about what makes a hero in general.

This is a guy who looked at Sonic and decided, in his last run, to write a storyline wherein Sonic would pursue a girl he knew his best friend had a crush on, knowing that sooner or later Tails would find out and that it would hurt him badly... which, as it turns out, it did. While Tails' crush on Fiona was creepy given the circumstance, this was still a deeply terrible thing for Sonic to do, and to top it all off? He continued to pine for Sally afterwards even as he was dating Sally, and only stopped her wedding to Anti-Antoine out of sheer entitlement. Not because he found out Patch was an imposter, but because Sally was getting married to Antoine and that just Could Not Stand.

I want you to take a step back now. Forget about what you would interpret as being in-character for Sonic. ANY iteration of Sonic, or even just a basic platonic idea of Sonic as "A super fast teenage hedgehog who fights an evil scientist and has a cool teenager attitude". Does this kind of downright scummy behavior sound like the sort of thing you or anyone else would write down if you were made the writer of a children's series? This is the main character, someone the readers are meant to root for. Is this the sort of thing you would include for someone who is meant to come off as likable and heroic?

For a guy who grew up reading superhero comic books, it seems even the most basic ideas of how a 'heroic' character should behave is lost on him. You even see a bit of this with Knuckles, in the sense that despite being the title character, at the end of it Knuckles doesn't really have much of a choice in anything, as Penders' writes it. Major developments happen outside of his control, and multiple times the resolution comes about regardless of his actual deeds, and whatever conflicts are set up for him to have with his father or the Brotherhood? Are largely set by the wayside as Knuckles is destined to Basically Become his father, while ignoring/forgiving the transgressions of his forebears all the while, a pawn of destiny-ex-machina.

Penders writing problems go beyond an inability/refusal to even try grasping the characters he's meant to be writing for, and veers into him having a fundamentally broken view of how heroic, likable characters are meant to act just in general.

4 hours ago, King Scoopa Koopa said:

Sometimes, I think he just doesn't get people, fictional or otherwise.

Yeah, if I didn't actually know better? I'd swear that Penders somehow went most of his life without actually socializing with other people and learned everything he knows about people by watching television. I know this is not the case, but based off his work and how characters act under his pen, that's the impression I get. Like there's some kind of deep, fundamental disconnect going on.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Yeah, I'm no professional, so I don't want to start throwing out possible terms as speculation, but I do wonder if there's something going on there that affects his understanding in how he writes his characters (to say nothing of how he interacts with people, at least online).

It's just so bizarre to me.