Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[SuperLink]

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/483682614713135104

 

 

 

He likes to pretend to be progressive, when his work shows him to be the exact opposite. I wouldn't call him an "ignorant old grandpa", I'd call him a clueless, hypocrtical sack o' sh*t.

He may actually be well-intentioned, just rather ignorant, but if he was truly interested in the wellbeing of women and equality in general he would avoid making "excuses" when called out for a misogynistic mistake and apologise for them. That's what an adult who was genuinely invested in caring about the subject matter would do.

 

The fact that he's so far been sidestepping and making excuses rather than apologising for his ignorance like he should be is not doing him many favours. Hopefully if more pressure is applied he will genuinely apologise and try to improve his behaviour, that's the best scenario we can hope for.

[Delta Starfire]

He may actually be well-intentioned, just rather ignorant, but if he was truly interested in the wellbeing of women and equality in general he would avoid making "excuses" when called out for a misogynistic mistake and apologise for them. That's what an adult who was genuinely invested in caring about the subject matter would do.

 

The fact that he's so far been sidestepping and making excuses rather than apologising for his ignorance like he should be is not doing him many favours. Hopefully if more pressure is applied he will genuinely apologise and try to improve his behaviour, that's the best scenario we can hope for.

 

And that's how you can tell a sincere apology apart from a notpology. "I'm sorry if you were offended" is not a sincere apology. Unfortunately, it is the kind of "apology" you hear most often when someone says something stupid, ignorant, and insensitive. 

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

Casually misogynist, more like. Moreover, ignorance is no excuse. I don't give a crap how old someone is. When someone is sexist, I call them on it. Shutting up and tolerating prejudice just 'cause it's from an older generation, who "doesn't know any better", doesn't help to fix the problem. 

 

Of course. But passive and active are two different things with two different treatments, and it's a bit premature to label Penders one or the other. Sexists are, ultimately, still human beings, and deserve to be coaxed out of that mentality, not thrown to the wolves. Even an idiot like Penders.

 

I dunno, maybe that's just me, but even the worst of people are still people. To just degrade them into cartoon monsters is just as much a lie as the lies they tell themselves, even if they're awful.

 

Sorry if that's hurried, but I'm running out the door :[

[Delta Starfire]

Of course he's still a person. Just not a very good person and we're calling him out on that. 

[Celestia]

I do believe people can change, but unfortunately some people can't--or, a lot worse, they simply don't want to.

 

Nobody knows where Penders will go from here as a person, but for now, it's perfectly reasonable to criticize his actions and words in the present. Who knows, there's a chance he could listen. I think it's only crossing the line if someone literally wishes harm or even death on him, which admittedly has popped up in this topic more than once.

[The Tenth Doctor]

I do believe people can change, but unfortunately some people can't--or, a lot worse, they simply don't want to.

 

Nobody knows where Penders will go from here as a person, but for now, it's perfectly reasonable to criticize his actions and words in the present. Who knows, there's a chance he could listen.

 

To add fuel to this, people find it hard to change if they've had this mind set for a while. He's had it in his comics from at LEAST the mid 90's. I wish I could say he could change but it's hard to drum something out of someone that they've been practicing for about 19 years or so.

[Delta Starfire]

My point is, some people are bad. Being bad does not make you not a person and I absolutely do not believe in dehumanising bad people in a vain effort to disassociate ourselves from them. I think that is a dangerous way of thinking, because when you view someone as less than human, you can start rationalising their mistreatment. But if we don't call out bad people for being bad, if there are no consequences (and bankruptcy is sometimes a consequence of being bad), then what possible reason have they to stop being bad?

 

Societal pressure is what makes it unacceptable to be a racist, what is making unacceptable to be a homophobe and a misogynist, and it is what will make it unacceptable to be a transphobe. I'm not going to cut anyone any slack on the basis of our shared humanity. Some humans are evil*.

 

*I don't think Penders is evil. I think he's a pitiful jerk.  

[Mauro Fonseca]

Evil is a very cartoonishingly way to put it, even if your general idea of having values you fight for unwaveringly is correct.

[Delta Starfire]

Some humans have committed mass murder against innocent people. If anything is evil, surely that qualifies? Hell, I'd use the word evil to describe someone who killed one innocent person. But that's going into moral philosophy and wildly off topic. But there's nothing necessarily cartoonish about the concept of evil. 

[Celestia]

I think it's more fair to say bad people "do" evil rather than "are" evil, though that's probably just arguing semantics. XP There are some, err, obvious exceptions to that, mind you (let's not get into that), but I agree that Penders isn't really an example. He's just extremely misguided and has some questionable views that he should be called out on.

 

Nothing more, nothing less.

[horridus]

Some humans have committed mass murder against innocent people. If anything is evil, surely that qualifies? Hell, I'd use the word evil to describe someone who killed one innocent person. But that's going into moral philosophy and wildly off topic. 

 

Aye. Nobody here thinks Penders is evil, just a colossal prick. 

 

Though I would argue he's done a better job of being a cartoon caricature of himself than ANY of his detractors could have managed. 

[Gabz Girl]

Count me in as someone who doesn't hate Penders, but pities him instead for being a foolish, ignorant old man. These recent Twitter comments have only made it worse, but I still don't despise the guy. However, I do want to see him fail with the LSC because nobody deserves success or should even publish such a mess of a comic.

[Delta Starfire]

My point was that people can be bad, but they're still people, and people can be evil, but they're still people; because dehumanising people in order to basically justify horrendous mistreatment of them is dangerous. No matter what evil someone has done, you should never forget that they're still a human being. I really didn't think that'd be a controversial observation, particularly given that I do not claim that Penders is evil. I don't even really think of him as terribly bad, just part of a larger problem, which is casual misogyny. Oh, and, of course, the theft of a huge supporting cast of characters from a comic I love. 

 

Aye. Nobody here thinks Penders is evil, just a colossal prick. 

 

Though I would argue he's done a better job of being a cartoon caricature of himself than ANY of his detractors could have managed. 

 

Amen.

[Tenko]

In a round-a-bout kinda way a lot of people are actually trying to help him too, not only to see the error of his ways but to improve his work before he releases it. Some intentionally so, and some via their remarks of disbelief and disgust.

Considering he hasn't even finalized or released his first book yet he has plenty of time to make changes based on people's reactions, which he has done before to a very minor degree, but instead he try's to justify the things that people point out.

He has never been very good at taking critique, worse yet at accepting it and working on it. His replies to critique are often dismissive or share the traits of a "no you!" school yard debate.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if this fails, which currently is almost assured, its his own fault, he can't blame anyone/anything else. He has had ample time to change this vision of his, to give it the trappings of a successful work, to listen to the people and their critique, that if it was done with greater respect and care they would more than likely give it a chance and support the man. But as long as he continues to avoid the vocal ones that are willing to give him advice, even the advice wrapped in insult, this project of his is not going to reach any kind of zenith and will not help him to his dream goal of producing a popular multimedia franchise. It won't.

[Delta Starfire]

In a round-a-bout kinda way a lot of people are actually trying to help him too, not only to see the error of his ways but to improve his work before he releases it. Some intentionally so, and some via their remarks of disbelief and disgust.

Considering he hasn't even finalized or released his first book yet he has plenty of time to make changes based on people's reactions, which he has done before to a very minor degree, but instead he try's to justify the things that people point out.

He has never been very good at taking critique, worse yet at accepting it and working on it. His replies to critique are often dismissive or share the traits of a "no you!" school yard debate.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if this fails, which currently is almost assured, its his own fault, he can't blame anyone/anything else. He has had ample time to change this vision of his, to give it the trappings of a successful work, to listen to the people and their critique, that if it was done with greater respect and care they would more than likely give it a chance and support the man. But as long as he continues to avoid the vocal ones that are willing to give him advice, even the advice wrapped in insult, this project of his is not going to reach any kind of zenith and will not help him to his dream goal of producing a popular multimedia franchise. It won't.

 

Eh, call me vindictive, but there's no sense in which I want this to succeed. He doesn't deserve it, and it's not because he's an out-of-touch, misogynistic buffoon, who can't accept even constructive criticism. It's because he forced the cancellation of a story I was really enjoying. 

[SuperLink]

In a round-a-bout kinda way a lot of people are actually trying to help him too, not only to see the error of his ways but to improve his work before he releases it. Some intentionally so, and some via their remarks of disbelief and disgust.

Considering he hasn't even finalized or released his first book yet he has plenty of time to make changes based on people's reactions, which he has done before to a very minor degree, but instead he try's to justify the things that people point out.

He has never been very good at taking critique, worse yet at accepting it and working on it. His replies to critique are often dismissive or share the traits of a "no you!" school yard debate.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if this fails, which currently is almost assured, its his own fault, he can't blame anyone/anything else. He has had ample time to change this vision of his, to give it the trappings of a successful work, to listen to the people and their critique, that if it was done with greater respect and care they would more than likely give it a chance and support the man. But as long as he continues to avoid the vocal ones that are willing to give him advice, even the advice wrapped in insult, this project of his is not going to reach any kind of zenith and will not help him to his dream goal of producing a popular multimedia franchise. It won't.

Precisely. If Penders wants to succeed in the entertainment industry, he can't afford to perceive himself as being immune to criticism. In his "early days" of trying to get the book (or any future book he plans if this doesn't succeed), any criticism he gets may actually help him if he's willing to listen. If he acts like he's impervious to criticism, it'll be his own fault.

 

He should be old enough to realise that people aren't perfect and it's ok to learn from mistakes, No one is born a paragon of knowledge free from ignorance, ignorance can only be fixed through mistakes and continued learning. Saying "you're being passively misogynistic and also your comic ideas kinda suck for these reasons" is not mindless hate, it's more like a "hey, you should probably shape up and grow up if you want to get anywhere in this industry". Basically I think Tenko worded it better than I did. Being passively misogynistic isn't always a person's fault when they grew up in that old-fashioned society, but there's a very important difference between making a pointed effort to improve your behaviour, and shaking off everyone's criticisms as if they're the ones who're wrong. That just makes you look like a big baby. And right now Penders is lookin' kinda like a big baby.

 

And I genuinely hope he does learn from his mistakes and quits being such a big baby.

[superwplf]

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/484894603112620033

 

He still hasn't answered me on why he did it in the first place. 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Someone with photoshop magic needs to make an image of Ken Penders looking in the mirror, but instead of his own reflection, it's Knu--ahem, the Praetorian. Optional: text that reads "when will my reflection show, who I am inside?"

 

This is a little crude, and I was debating on just sticking their heads on some stock footage of a fat guy staring at a mirror, but yeah...

 

[Milo]

Wow, this thread took quite a turn.

 

Between the Not!Knuckles reveal to the "movie pitch" and "presentation" to his threats and policies regarding his booths to the PG-13 teenage echidna sex comparisons/promises and everything in between...I wouldn't even read his comic out of bile fascination on how poor the quality would (very likely) be. At this point you couldn't even pay me the same price he charges for his comics to read a pirated copy of his work.

 

The infamy and implications surrounding this man and his comics I think is reaching the point that it would put off almost anybody who was interested in it for all of the right and wrong reasons. Judging everything I've heard so far, I'm not complaining tho.

[SoundBunnie44]

This is a little crude, and I was debating on just sticking their heads on some stock footage of a fat guy staring at a mirror, but yeah...

 

That is beautiful. XD

[Big Panda]

This is a little crude, and I was debating on just sticking their heads on some stock footage of a fat guy staring at a mirror, but yeah...

 

I recommend getting that more recent pic of the long-haired, slightly dishevelled looking Penders, and make it look like the scene in Mulan where half her face has the make-up wiped off, only instead it's Penders face on one side and a (drawn from the ground up) What-the-Fuckles on the other.

[Badnik Mechanic]

What's all this about a movie, are you guys on about that thing which came out a few years ago or is this something recent?

[biznizz]

What's all this about a movie, are you guys on about that thing which came out a few years ago or is this something recent?

 

Sunwalker describes it here. It's absolutely f*cking stupid & ametuerish on every, single level.

 

[Big Panda]

That thing was definately made at least after 2005, and you know how I can tell? The kids are playing Sonic CD, it has the "Little Planet" loading screen from the PC version, and the only way to play the PC version with a controller on a TV screen is...through Sonic Gems Collection, released in 2005.

[Killtank]

Am I the only one who can't help but see this whole thing as a farce? It won't take long before I see this whole thing as one large practical joke. Ken Penders might be the most innovative comic [i will not apologize for the bad pun, LOL!] since Andy Kaufman. I swear, it gets worse by the day. You think that Ken will turn around and do anything just anything worthy of a modicum of praise or recognition. But every other day we all learn that a new error or baffling artistic decision. I thought everything was bad yesterday, but now he's going, or at least implying, to include sex scenes involving teenage girls? The bikini was bad enough, but this revelation is just too much. This has to be an elaborate joke at our expense. Well, maybe it is, but is it intentional? I can't fully judge Ken as a human being. I don't know him at all outside his tweets, but there's just so much. At this point, it is literally getting worse from day to day, and I don't know if I'm going to be able to read THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES as a treasure trove of humor. I don't even know if I want to like this ironically. I can love a bad movie, but I don't know if I can find any "pleasure" in reading this crap. I wonder now if it's possible for any piece of media to be so bad that there is absolutely nothing redeemable about it whatsoever.