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The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

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Alan Moore, writer of: Watchmen, From Hell, Lost Girls, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, a bunch of titles created by Rob Liefeld, some really good DC stuff like Green Lantern & Swamp Thing, etc.

 

Frank Miller, writer of: Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, Batman Year One, Sin City, Robocop 2 & 3, 300, The Dark Knight Strikes Again, All-Star Batman & Robin The Boy Wonder, Holy Terror, etc.

 

Holy Terror really stands out in that is anti-Muslim propaganda that Frank Miller pulled a Penders on (before Penders could do so) by replacing all the DC characters with barely hidden stand ins (The Fixer is Batman, The Cat-Burglar is Catwoman, the Lietenant is Commissioner Gordon)

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I just think its laughably ironic that he spends all this time bitching about creators rights and giving credit where its due, that even small uses of others material should include footnotes and names of original creators. Then this whole poem thing shows up and he's guilty of every single one of his own damn complaints and pet hates.

Even then, EVEN THEN he tries to spin it that he's done nothing wrong and he had every right to use it, and his apology should be enough as far as having used it without giving credit as its in the past and can't be fixed now etc, yet those rules don't apply if its his work that's been used in the past (Chronicles and Mega Collection, reprints without his name plastered all over the front etc).

*shakes head*

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I just think its laughably ironic that he spends all this time bitching about creators rights and giving credit where its due, that even small uses of others material should include footnotes and names of original creators. Then this whole poem thing shows up and he's guilty of every single one of his own damn complaints and pet hates.

 

On top of the fact that he's trying to make his own comic/movie using characters heavily based off of Knuckles.

 

He really is living in his own world.

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Hence why Alan Moore he is not. Alan Moore actually came up with original ideas in things like Watchmen and got shafted by DC for it. What has Penders come up with that wasn't just a Sonic/Knuckles derivative?

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Hence why Alan Moore he is not. Alan Moore actually came up with original ideas in things like Watchmen and got shafted by DC for it. What has Penders come up with that wasn't just a Sonic/Knuckles derivative?

The Lost Ones... but we know how that turned out.

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On top of the fact that he's trying to make his own comic/movie using characters heavily based off of Knuckles.

 

He really is living in his own world.

It's not that simple.  He's being enabled by people making a dime off him.  "Patrick" (aka "The Patman") who apparently has "a Bachelor of Science in Game Art and Design" working on an App.  Mike Philpot, costume designer, who's creating "items" like "The Praetorians hat".  CGI artists he's apparently hired to create 3D CGI models of Ken's designs.  And of course there's always lawyers.  A lot of it is him being in serious denial, but to be completely fair you need to look at the people that quite frankly seem to be exploiting him, giving him a thumbs up and telling him his ideas are great in the hopes of getting money from him.

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Strictly speaking, the characters in Watchmen weren't completely original. They're actually based heavily off of the then recently acquired Charleston characters and were changed because DC didn't want to kill them off. In fact a lot of Moore's works usually include actual or expies of famous literary characters like in Lost Girls or League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Even Supreme is a knock off Superman.

That's why I found the whole Before Watchmen outrage to be extremely hypocritical. So he can make Mary Poppins God in Harry Potter the Antichrist but no one else can write not Captain Atom and not the Question? No one else can use any of his stories in Swamp Thing or in Green Lantern itself without being accused of ripping Alan Moore off? Its okay for him to use now deceased authors' characters in a giant dressed up porn comic?

Yeah DC screwed over Alan Moore on the whole Watchmen thing, but he still got so much press from it he's never going to want for any work ever again and he won't wind up like Bill Finger or Jack Kirby.

Tho this is just how I feel about Moore.

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It's not that simple.  He's being enabled by people making a dime off him.  "Patrick" (aka "The Patman") who apparently has "a Bachelor of Science in Game Art and Design" working on an App.  Mike Philpot, costume designer, who's creating "items" like "The Praetorians hat".  CGI artists he's apparently hired to create 3D CGI models of Ken's designs.  And of course there's always lawyers.  A lot of it is him being in serious denial, but to be completely fair you need to look at the people that quite frankly seem to be exploiting him, giving him a thumbs up and telling him his ideas are great in the hopes of getting money from him.

 

I'm amazed he can even find people who agree with him outside of incredibly devoted fans from his days with Archie, even those who want to scam him for his money. If it were me I'd certainly not want my name attached to what's pretty much humanoid Sonic fanfiction. I can't imagine that looking good on a resume. Of course, that's just me. I guess we could only hope that if this were to ever come into fruition, it would fall flat on it's face, get panned to hell and back, and maybe then he'd realize this is all a bad idea.

 

Which leaves me wondering... just how much money does this guy have, anyway? For someone who's just a comic book writer, inker, and artist, I can't imagine him being able to bring all these skilled people in for this. Did he actually get any money from the Archie/Sega thing? What else does Penders do that nets him enough money to pay these people?

I see that he directed that Republic thing, but doesn't look like that got any good reception.

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Ken has supposedly tied up most of his money and is hoping that his project will be such a success set he'll be able to expand and recoup all of his losses. As I have said before it is like looking at a gambler desperately putting what little he has left on the line at a dog track. And guess what, Lara-Su is not going to come anywhere close to winning this race for him.

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Strictly speaking, the characters in Watchmen weren't completely original. They're actually based heavily off of the then recently acquired Charleston characters and were changed because DC didn't want to kill them off. In fact a lot of Moore's works usually include actual or expies of famous literary characters like in Lost Girls or League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Even Supreme is a knock off Superman.

That's why I found the whole Before Watchmen outrage to be extremely hypocritical.

 

 

I think you're looking at it wrong.

 

When Moore uses someone else's character like Mister Hyde, he makes no bones about it: No, this is not an "official sequel".  Don't be absurd.  If anyone asked him if he considered LOEG to be an official sequel to any old stories, he'd raise his eyebrows and call them a very silly person. So yes, he did have a problem with Before Watchmen being presented as an official continuation of Watchmen, given that Watchmen was a self-contained story and he was highly skeptical about the quality of any follow-ups.  Supreme, on the other hand, was not intended to be self-contained, and he ha no problem handing the book off to "whoever came next" (which ended up taking a very long time...)

 

His secondary point was a (largely correct) prediction that nobody approaching the project would be doing so because they had a story they really wanted to tell.  For the most part the prequels added essentially nothing.  They were largely filler (unsurprising since their origin wasn't a writer pitching ideas to DC.  DC wanted stories and found people willing to think some up).  They came in two categories, the ones that dared to do something new (and didn't gel well with the original work as a result), and the ones that strove to fit in with Watchmen seamlessly (and as a result ended up pretty pointless).  All involved parties would have been better off working on their own stuff.  And that was Moore's biggest point in objecting to DC making more Watchmen.  It was never "oy you, get off of my stuff, that's MINE!" it was always "oh for pity's sake, isn't there something better you could be doing?" Comparing him to Penders is extremely unfair.

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I seem to recall, back when Blackest Night was happening at DC, Moore gave a statement saying that DC was just using his old throw away ideas for it and Sinestro Corps War, ignoring the new stuff Geoff and them added to the mix in addition to Moore's stuff.

As for Before Watchmen I felt that most of the stories were pretty interesting. Honestly the only thing involved in that the didn't really add much what is the Crimson Corsair story. And I suppose also the Dollar Bill one shot as well.

I know full well that League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and Lost Girls are not "sequels" but they still are using characters created by other authors. I seriously doubt that J.M. Barrie or L. Frank Baum or Lewis Carroll would enjoy seeing their characters get into a bunch of pretentious orgies.

To me it seems like Alan Moore doesn't like anyone using anything he's written, even if its to help create new content.

but I'm not trying to directly compare Alan Moore to ol' Chicken Tenders. If anything I would say that Frank Miller doing what he did with Holy Terror is more akin to what Penders pulled.

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I seem to recall, back when Blackest Night was happening at DC, Moore gave a statement saying that DC was just using his old throw away ideas for it and Sinestro Corps War, ignoring the new stuff Geoff and them added to the mix in addition to Moore's stuff.

 

 

Sure.  I'm the first to say that Alan drips with hostility toward Marvel and DC to the point where it blinds him and clouds his judgement.

(I tend to think the hostility is well deserved, and am happy that there's at least one writer with enough "star power" to say things about them and get away with it. But the blindness resulting from it is definitely a bad thing.)

But if you look at his comments, it wasn't "how dare they use my things!"

It was him saying he thought it was a bit depressing that a major comics event was being crafted based around a short backup he wrote in Green Lanterns Corp Quarterly. He thought that showed a lack of creativity. I disagree. The lack of creativity was displayed elsewhere in DC's output at the time, and his old backup was a decent setup for another writer's story.  But his point was never "get your hands off that, it's mine".  He just had a very low opinion of DC in general, and suspected that DC wasn't giving writers enough breathing room if old backups in obscure titles were being turned into big events.

 

 

I seem to recall, back when Blackest Night was happening at DC, Moore gave a statement saying that DC was just using his old throw away ideas for it and Sinestro Corps War, ignoring the new stuff Geoff and them added to the mix in addition to Moore's stuff.

 

 

Sure.  I'm the first to say that Alan drips with hostility toward Marvel and DC to the point where it blinds him and clouds his judgement.

(I tend to think the hostility is well deserved, and am happy that there's at least one writer with enough "star power" to say things about them and get away with it. But the blindness resulting from it is definitely a bad thing.)

But if you look at his comments, it wasn't "how dare they use my things!"

It was him saying he thought it was a bit depressing that a major comics event was being crafted based around a short backup he wrote in Green Lanterns Corp Quarterly. He thought that showed a lack of creativity. I disagree. The lack of creativity was found elsewhere in DC's lineup at the time...

 

 

As for Before Watchmen I felt that most of the stories were pretty interesting. Honestly the only thing involved in that the didn't really add much what is the Crimson Corsair story. And I suppose also the Dollar Bill one shot as well.

 

 

I disagree.  Like I said, the stories felt like a mix of playing it safe and thus adding nothing, or taking chances and thus adding things that didn't work well with the original story.  Cooke's output was particularly disasteful.

 

 

 

I know full well that League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and Lost Girls are not "sequels"

 

 

Well obviously you know that.  And he didn't try to claim they were.  DC absolutely pushed Before Watchmen as an official followup.  And since Moore wrote the twist ending deliberately in opposition to the traditional superhero story, where things can keep going on and on and on, he felt that making more "official" Watchmen stories was a particularly bad idea.  The original was intended to be a self-contained anti-Superhero story. In his mind, anyone wanting to write more with the characters needed something more in mind than just continuing on with the characters a bit more. 

 

To me it seems like Alan Moore doesn't like anyone using anything he's written, even if its to help create new content.

 

That's provably false.  His Supreme was written without an ending so he could hand the book off to another writer, and that was the plan for his Glory too (although that book never happened).  After Alan set up some essentials, he handed off Terra Obscure to Peter Hogan, and Greyshirt to Rick Veitch.  Steve Moore did Tom Strong's Terrific Tales.  Art Adams and Steve Moore had free reign to do whatever they wanted with the Johnny Future setup (resulting in Jonni Future). 

 

And as long as I'm mentioning Steve Moore, it's worth noting that there's a whole ugly history between DC, Alan, and other creators that are friends of Alan's, and that history definitely influenced his comments about Before Watchmen.  Alan suspects DC was using dirty tricks and trying to get at him through his friends.  And maybe he's right, and maybe it's just paranoia, but when it comes to DC and Alan there's more bad blood than you'd get if all the Red Cross' refrigerators broke down.  Outside of dealings with DC, things are different.

 

And yes, the Holy Terror comparison is... apt.

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I don't want to make this thread derail into more non-Penders stuff (since it already has zero to do with anything Sonic related at this point). I just want to say this: I don't think that you're gonna change my mind about Mr. Moore. The fact he lets his distaste for DC (which, admittedly, is mostly deserved) cloud his judgement isn't something that should be overlooked or condoned. Just because the man is a good writer (most of the time) doesn't mean that I'm gonna accept him saying & doing hypocritical crap like he does.

 

His flippant "They're just using my old ideas for his current output. No originality" is a more subdued, but still comperable to the terrible attitude then Chicken Tenders has (who admits he's never read or cares about anything Ian hand done and even accused him of stealing his future plans for the book before he was fired). It shows a massive disrespect for Geoff, Tomasi, & all the others who worked hard on Green Lantern at the time and "he's mad at DC" shouldn't excuse him.

 

But to make it on topic again... https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/449198801094332416

 

I don't know what's worse: the ass kissing, or the fact that Elliot S! Maggin is acting like an embittered asshole. https://twitter.com/Maggin/status/446771267010428928

 

https://twitter.com/Maggin/status/446771543108890624

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The only point I was ever making by bringing up Alan Moore was that there are sometimes legitimate complaints by creators, such as with Watchmen, where DC had agreed to return the rights to Moore after the comic went out of print. Conveniently for DC, it never actually did and probably never will, so Moore's unlikely to ever regain the rights to it. Not that he wants to now anyway. His experience over it was so negative that he wants nothing to do with the book now. 

 

But I digress. That was the only reason for bringing Moore up. He had a legitimate complaint about losing the rights to characters he'd created in their own fictional world that was unconnected to anything else DC was publishing, since Watchmen is a self-contained story that doesn't take place in the DC universe. 

 

Penders, on the other hand, created characters, settings, and stories that take place in the existing Archie Sonicverse, who are related to characters in that universe, derived from ideas in that universe, and essentially dependent on that universe for their very existence and raison d'etre -- without extensive re-writing anways. And then he decided he wanted sole ownership and control of those characters, which he had created specifically for the Archie Sonicverse, and it's only because of a legal technicality resulting from Archie's sloppiness with contracts that he's got away with it. 

 

There is a qualitative difference between the two situations. Whether you're a fan of either writer's work or not. 

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I just think its laughably ironic that he spends all this time bitching about creators rights and giving credit where its due, that even small uses of others material should include footnotes and names of original creators. Then this whole poem thing shows up and he's guilty of every single one of his own damn complaints and pet hates.

Even then, EVEN THEN he tries to spin it that he's done nothing wrong and he had every right to use it, and his apology should be enough as far as having used it without giving credit as its in the past and can't be fixed now etc, yet those rules don't apply if its his work that's been used in the past (Chronicles and Mega Collection, reprints without his name plastered all over the front etc).

*shakes head*

 

The poem thing actually strikes me as highly consistent with his mindset.  Penders took a bunch of pre-existing Sonic material and developed it his own way.  Likewise, he took a pre-existing piece of poetry and developed it his own way.  That he threw a fit over people inheriting his material is the hypocritical point - though I get the impression that the real reason all this kicked off is that he was strapped for cash, and making a play for Chronicles and his Sonic material after however many years it's been was an attempt to hijack a pre-existing revenue stream.  Again.

 

Edit: In case it's not clear, I'm not suggesting that this was actually a workable plan, but we've seen what this guy is like.  With his seemingly unlimited self-confidence, what could he not believe?

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The poem thing actually strikes me as highly consistent with his mindset.  Penders took a bunch of pre-existing Sonic material and developed it his own way.  Likewise, he took a pre-existing piece of poetry and developed it his own way.  That he threw a fit over people inheriting his material is the hypocritical point - though I get the impression that the real reason all this kicked off is that he was strapped for cash, and making a play for Chronicles and his Sonic material after however many years it's been was an attempt to hijack a pre-existing revenue stream.  Again.

 

I'm not sure about that. Unless he was getting his legal advice completely gratis, it would seem like an awfully risky move just to get some cash. Moreover, outside his pool of fanboys and fangirls, who is actually going to pay to read this stuff (if it ever gets published)? I don't know really, and I'm not about to play armchair psychiatrist, but I wonder how much of this really has to do with money and how much of it is about some kind of revenge against Archie Comics. As I understand it, Penders didn't leave on friendly terms.

 

Can anyone shed some light on this?

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It being a revenge or Archie seems like it'll really cost him, making it all the more pointless. No matter where it goes, it could cost him.

 

The only thing that would save him is if his project actually gets off the ground and does what he says it will, which I don't find will equal the net work he putting into it, lawsuit and all. He's talking movie deals, but it takes advertising in order to even be noticed (hence why Sonic 06 for example did poorly, along with a lot of other Sega titles).

 

Even looking at this outside of a pissed of fan's perspective, he's got a really tall mountain to climb if he wants it where he does.

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This is pretty much why he left

"I've been working in the comics industry for almost twenty years, going back to my first assignment for DC Comics. Back in 1986 I worked for their WHO'S WHO IN STAR TREK mini-series; and, I can state from first-hand experience and the testimony of others that as hard as it is to break in, it's even harder to make a career of it -- unless you're adaptable. You can go from assignment to assignment and then, one morning, wake up wondering why there's no work.

That's partly why I became a writer, in response to having to wait for other writers' scripts that I was assigned to illustrate. I figured if I got into the game at the initial stage of creation, I could generate my own assignments. In the case of SONIC, it also offered me a chance to jump onto a book that was looking for one thing (writers) instead of the other (artists). You do what you have to, y'know?

What I didn't count on was ever staying as long as I did on the series. I figured I'd do a few issues and move on to something else at Marvel and DC. After all, working on SONIC back then was an issue-by-issue proposition. Even the publishers had no clue at all how long the book would last, hedging their bets by offering only six-issue subscriptions instead of the twelve-issue subs they offered on all their other titles. And when the original SONIC animated series were cancelled, even my then-editor Scott Fulop was pessimistic of the book itself lasting much longer. The history of similarly licensed-titles in the comics industry did not bode well for Sonic. It was at that point that I wrote up an outline of stories designed to take the series to issue 50. The culmination of which was the final epic battle between Sonic and his arch-nemesis Dr. Robotnik. All the while I knew there were no guarantees we would even make it to the 50th issue.

The only time I had any sense of stability was probably when I wrote the first twenty-five or so issues of Knuckles. When artist Manny Galan moved on to Nickelodeon, things seemed to fall apart. The book, as you know, was cancelled rather abruptly with issue 32.

After that, it became one long roller coaster ride, never knowing how long it would last. Finally, this past October, editor Mike Pellerito told me he wanted to make a change. The MOBIUS: 25 YEARS LATER 2-parter I had recently turned in would be the last story I would write for Archie Sonic in the foreseeable future. He did, however, allow me the chance to continue working on the book in an artistic capacity. I accepted those assignments at first. Then, while working on an assignment, I discovered that there were more pressing family matters as well as other opportunities elsewhere that I couldn't afford to turn down any longer.

So, the current Sonic-Shadow story line seeing print in issues #157 through #159 will be my last regular Sonic story in the series. The upcoming M:25YL 2-parter is my swan song from the book altogether. It's now up to new scribe Ian Flynn and others to carry the ball from here on out.

At this point, I want to thank editors Paul Castiglia, Scott Fulop, Justin Gabrie, and Mike Pellerito, along with editor-in-chief Victor Gorelick, and publishers Michael Silberkleit and Richard Goldwater for the opportunity to work on the series all these many years. And I must mention my appreciation for being part of a series that has meant so much to so many people all that time. My wish is that it continues to do so for many years to come."

http://www.mightycrusaders.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=581

That last part makes me upset

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