Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Wittymations]

Or they would have been just as good/bad. I like Ian's run on the comic, but he's not perfect. Some of the changes he's made to Unleashed's story so far are already being criticized, and he's messed up before. Just look at how he fuckin' handled making Charmy's change in personality.

 

I did say "likely." Not everything he's done is made out of gold. Not every episode of your favorite show is a winner. It never is.

 

For Unleashed, sure. I know it's being criticized, but they're criticizing how it's being changed, not how it's written. A lot of the complaints directed towards it were, in fact, premature assumptions based on very limited knowledge -- dynamics, by those who view it so, being ruined. I didn't mind the changes, most of what I view in pure Unleashed has been an absolute underwhelming... everything. Everyone was just, "Oh, okay." about everything. Here, it's different. Different for the better, in my view -- which is "more than Unleashed."

 

And yes. Charmy's change was bad. I admit that. You didn't need to point it out. Even Ian regrets making that decision. More reasons to trust him, he can admit a flaw and tries to not repeat it.

 

Oh, and before it gets to that: "But Sonic fans just get mad about chang--", s t o p.

 

You should really calm down.

[Kuroha Ai]

Thank you for the warm welcome!  
Kind of concerned me why I would post my first post in this thread of all thread, but my guess is because this man makes me really curious of what he will do next (not to the "I want to buy his upcoming graphic novel!" level of curiosity though). Yes, just like watching a shitty chess play.
 

Ken has a completely different definition of "professional level" than the rest of the English speakers on the planet. For us, it means something done with the skill and quality of a professional. For him, it means anything made or sanctioned by him. So it's only professional level in Ken World.
 
As for whether or not it's a fan work or an original work, he vehemently insists it is one hundred percent disconnected to Sonic. Except for Not-Knuckles, the character designs and the fact that he says it still fits with canon. Completely. Once again, it makes sense only in Ken World.

I... I see.
I'm no match for Penders' logic then smh.
 

Men Renders believes that because he's worked at some professional capacity before that it means everything he does is de facto professional in every way. However, it's extremely obvious that he has a very distorted capacity to even understand quality and his own limitations.
 
*snip*
 
As for if his new project, Lara-su Chronicles- is it a fan work or an original work? Renders claims it's an original work. Which is fair enough and I'll tentatively agree to, as a lot of his writing had absolutely nothing to do with Sonic because he persistently used Sonic as his own personal playground with no regard to established characters (who looks at Knuckles, a guy living alone on a flying island guarding a big giant glowy rock, and goes 'ah yes, he's the product of divorced parents'). The designs for his work, however, are extremely derivative to the point of looking like fanart. It's due to his inability to understand the basics of design and having absolutely no idea what quality is. He doesn't understand that just changing the style the characters are drawn in isn't the same as changing the features that makes them echidnas. They still look like Knuckles despite him stretching them out, giving them pug faces, and making them very... chin-y. So it's original work that looks like fanart.

Ugh. Even a professional is not immune to critics. While it's true that a creator doesn't have to take all of the critics simultaneously, when you got a load of perfectly sound critics backed with good arguments then at least he would be aware that something is seriously wrong with his work.

 

And thank you for the explanation! I agree that Ken should put more effort into his designs.

 

Welcome, first of all. I too am a newbie (well, returning after I had an account over a year ago I no longer have access to), and also because of the train wreck that is Ken.

Second, everyone's assessment of the man's pro-status is right on. Karl, as someone mentioned, got an Eisner nom! People ken claims to be working with like J Axer, Dawn Best and Spaz are all well-established in the art fields of their own. Heck, Spaz still works for Sonic! Doubt Ken's offering anyone, pay-wise, either. Probably one of those "when it's finished you'll make money" deals. Totally pro.

Professional indeed.

Looking at the current state of the project, I doubt that they'll get the money he promised though :\

 

Welcome to the forums! As everyone else said, Kenny Boy can't take any criticism about his work. When he does something stupid such as the use of a certain poem in a Sonic issue or ripping off Knuckles, he always comes up with some stupid excuse as to why he can get away with it. He's even admitted that he knows he ripped off Knuckles by saying ''I'm in my rights to do so'' and ''because I created M25YL, I own Knuckles' future design''.
 

*snip*

What in the...

Future or present design wise, it's still the same character. That kind of excuse make me even more sure that he's severely delusional. And I think his attitude, both in independent or teamwork, need a serious improvement. I know how hard it is to work on group sometimes, but it won't hurt to be civil and respect other people's work.

 

Yep hes our Sonic 2006 of the comic universe, a funny but very sad trainwreck. I'll never forgive him for his collateral damage to the comic, his meddling when we were just trying to clean up his mess and make an overall better comic, and his lawsuits resulting to hit the nuclear option and rebooting the comic from nothing again.

 

*snip*

I don't follow the comic, but it must be suck to get it rebooted just for one man's grave fault :c

And after all those fiasco he still have his way to make the situation worse. I don't get the man at all.

 

 

Also, I know it's not good to laugh but those nicknames (Tenders, Kenders, Men Renders, What-the-Fuckles) are really amusing :'D

[Celestia]

You should really calm down.

Uh, okay?

 

I know it's being criticized, but they're criticizing how it's being changed, not how it's written. A lot of the complaints directed towards it were, in fact, premature assumptions based on very limited knowledge -- dynamics, by those who view it so, being ruined.

But the changes being made are a result of Ian's writing. You basically just said, "They're criticizing the writing, not the writing!" Also, how is it premature to be wary of or to outright dislike the changes, but being okay with them isn't? I know that point is made every time this debate (and many others when it comes to a Sonic thing before it's out/completed) comes up, but for some reason it's usually ignored, so...

 

I didn't mind the changes, most of what I view in pure Unleashed has been an absolute underwhelming... everything. Everyone was just, "Oh, okay." about everything. Here, it's different. Different for the better, in my view -- which is "more than Unleashed."

Adding stuff to adaptations is good in theory, but more =/= better for everyone, obviously, especially if they already liked the source material and feel that changes being made to it are detrimental to what they liked about it. Of course, I'm someone who prefers adaptations to not really follow the source material 100% and I'm enjoying the current arc myself, but not everyone's gonna be a fan.

 

And yes. Charmy's change was bad. I admit that. You didn't need to point it out.

It was just an example. Fair enough that Ian felt bad about it afterwards, but it's...not like I was suggesting otherwise? I mostly just went with it since it's probably the worst mistake he made, at least for me.

 

 

 

Sorry for getting so annoyed. I like the comics too, it just frustrates me how much Ian is basically worshiped as the savior of everything Sonic, and I guess that's how I read your point. It's not fair to Sonic Team or even Ian himself to assume that everything he does is going to be better than the games.

 

Preferring the comics is fine, but I've always been frustrated that it has to be a "X vs Y" sort of thing. People say it's SEGA's (or in the case of other franchises that go through a similar "divide", the company/creators/whatever in question) fault that the fanbase is so fragmented, and I suppose all the different ways Sonic as a series has been portrayed is what started it, but is that an excuse for the "in-fighting" to continue? Do we have to take pot shots at the continuity we don't like at every opportunity?

 

But now I'm just rambling about stuff that'll never change. Ech.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I posted this on Bumbleking first so I'll repost it here.

 

He's still trying to justify Rotor plus going into this whole thing about Young Readers when talking to SonicBlueRanger. Ya know despite the fact It isn't really called for.

 

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/488784799083925505

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/488785100272705536

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/488785402182905856

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/488785636405432320

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/488786033543086080

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/488786409507917824

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/488786567473811456

[Tenko]

Still can't get over that Archie can't use the Chronicles stuff just cause of ol' Chicken Tenders (see, see I can do it too!!).

I wasn't really after a game adaptation, or Shade, as much as I would have liked seeing Ix. I enjoyed reading the issues where Finitevus showed up and caused trouble, would have liked to see where all that ended up. So Ix seemed a good replacement, but I guess that ship has sailed. Maybe they could talk to the old Fleetway crew and see if they could do a deal to get Zachary in the new Archieverse as a replacement. At least then the use of such a character couldn't be contested, what with him having been around longer than any of Penders copy/paste Knux clones.

How he can get away with both a limitation on Chronicles being too similar to his work and then turning around and making 'Blonde Knuckles with an eyepatch and the anime OVA hat' without batting an eye is beyond me. The fact the man can't see he is breaking his own tenants of his case against Sega/Archie also boggles the mind. I really do hope Sega actually slaps him with a cease and desist or he's getting away with murder >.<

[Celestia]

It's obvious he couldn't get away with it (either because of Penders or SEGA wanting to enforce Knuckles being the last echidna, if only because of...well...the whole Penders thing (what next, did he cause the ice age?)), but I'd like to see what Ian would come up with for a new echidna character(s?). Still, if he wants to go with a villain like that he could always just make up a new one that isn't an echidna.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Still can't get over that Archie can't use the Chronicles stuff just cause of ol' Chicken Tenders (see, see I can do it too!!).

I wasn't really after a game adaptation, or Shade, as much as I would have liked seeing Ix. I enjoyed reading the issues where Finitevus showed up and caused trouble, would have liked to see where all that ended up. So Ix seemed a good replacement, but I guess that ship has sailed. Maybe they could talk to the old Fleetway crew and see if they could do a deal to get Zachary in the new Archieverse as a replacement. At least then the use of such a character couldn't be contested, what with him having been around longer than any of Penders copy/paste Knux clones.

How he can get away with both a limitation on Chronicles being too similar to his work and then turning around and making 'Blonde Knuckles with an eyepatch and the anime OVA hat' without batting an eye is beyond me. The fact the man can't see he is breaking his own tenants of his case against Sega/Archie also boggles the mind. I really do hope Sega actually slaps him with a cease and desist or he's getting away with murder >.<

Oh no, he knows he ripped off Knuckles. As I already said, he's said on Twitter that he's in his rights to use that design and that he also believes since he wrote M25YL that he owns Knuckles' future design.

[ThatSpookyGuy59]

Oh no, he knows he ripped off Knuckles. As I already said, he's said on Twitter that he's in his rights to use that design and that he also believes since he wrote M25YL that he owns Knuckles' future design.

 

When Penders said that to me about Wuckles's design, I was not pleased. Mostly because his claim makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Even without the '25YL' design Wuckles still looks like the actual SEGA character. Now I want to open up photoshop and remove Wuckle's goatee and eyepatch.

[Wittymations]

You basically just said, "They're criticizing the writing, not the writing!"

 

 

Adding stuff to adaptations is good in theory, but more =/= better for everyone, obviously, especially if they already liked the source material and feel that changes being made to it are detrimental to what they liked about it.

 

Since this thread isn't really dedicated towards this particular discussion, I can answer you in PMs if you wish.

 

Sorry for getting so annoyed. I like the comics too, it just frustrates me how much Ian is basically worshiped as the savior of everything Sonic, and I guess that's how I read your point.

 

I don't see Ian as any kind of savior of Sonic, the best it stops at is saving the comics. They probably weren't doomed to cancellation anytime soon, but it definitely gave it health back.

 

It's not that Ian is Superman, but compared to all a number, he's probably the best writer we had for Sonic so far -- except, possibly, for the storybook and Adventure writers. Of course, he couldn't done anything without previous writers showing him the way, true for all fans who write for a series they like.

 

 

Preferring the comics is fine, but I've always been frustrated that it has to be a "X vs Y" sort of thing. People say it's SEGA's (or in the case of other franchises that go through a similar "divide", the company/creators/whatever in question) fault that the fanbase is so fragmented, and I suppose all the different ways Sonic as a series has been portrayed is what started it, but is that an excuse for the "in-fighting" to continue? Do we have to take pot shots at the continuity we don't like at every opportunity?

I wasn't really trying to provoke anyone with my statements, certainly not you.

 

But sadly, all fanbases fight. Whether it's fractured as badly as Sonic or not. There will always be sides. Sonic does have it pretty hard, certainly no question. Probably one of the most viscous fanbases out there. You just try to not let it get to you.

 

It's just funny that some fanbases have a unified enemy, like Penders, where nearly all fans can agree "This guy sucks." Then it gets warming. A common banner that people can fall under no matter what they like.

[Gabz Girl]

I actually remember thinking back when they rebooted the comic "Hang on, Finitevus is not a Penders character. That means they can use him! Cool, it's going to be great to see how they will explore Knuckles and Finitevus' reaction after their entire race disappeared and how they get along after losing everything!" But NOPE! Even Finitevus is out of bounds because somehow Penders managed to stop people like Bollers to not have their characters published in the comics either!

 

I know this has already been talked about countless times in both this topic and the main Archie comic one, but I can't help but feel how much better some of the comic would be if they could keep characters like Finitevus, Mina etc. It would've been a fresh new start for these characters as well, not just SEGA and SatAM, and it's a damn shame we'll never see them again. Thanks to...him. >_>

[goku262002]

I know Gabz, I feel that pain too. he must get his rocks off knowing that he was still able to control the outcome of the comic even when he wasn't on the payroll anymore.

[Your Vest Friend]

I know Verte, I feel that pain too. he must get his rocks off knowing that he was still able to control the outcome of the comic even when he wasn't on the payroll anymore.

I don't think Verte has a strong opinion on the Echidna thing.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I know Verte, I feel that pain too. he must get his rocks off knowing that he was still able to control the outcome of the comic even when he wasn't on the payroll anymore.

Um...you mean Gabz Girl, right?

 

At any rate, regarding the Chronicles thing, I do recall at an earlier point that he couldn't touch it until this whole issue was settled. He noted that he had years before he would get to it anyway, so is that still the case or is it that he can't touch it ever?

[goku262002]

I don't think Verte has a strong opinion on the Echidna thing.

Whoops! Corrected, I shouldn't be splitting my focus when I post. (fucking team killing twat you want to quit then quit don't be a dick about it too.)

[rudeartist]

Other than the merciless gutting of the Archie comics, I think one of the sad things about this whole thing is that Ender's Lara-Su chronicles might have actually worked had he not made so many atrocious decisions. Had he just simply come out and say that he was making a "spiritual successor" to his M25YL stories using original characters that captured the essence of those from the Archie comics, I would have been genuinely interested.

I won't argue that his writing had gradually degenerated to melodramatic shlock the deeper he delved into the whole Echidna universe he was building for himself, but I did enjoy many elements he introduced. To this day, I still consider Enerjak one of the more interesting villains to be introduced to the series and always lamented how underused he was.

Had Ken did what Keiji Inafune did with his Mighty No.9 project and used his Sonic credentials to appeal to fans of his work, he might have been able to pull this off.

As it is, it seems he's determined to be the instrument of his own destruction.

Oh and, nice to be chatting with everyone else. First time posting so I figured I'd talk about something that's been on my mind since first stumbling upon this thread.

[SoundBunnie44]

So was lurking Ken's forums and found this little gem

Mavrickindigo:

It could be that most writers just don't care to carry over characters they created for SONIC the freaking HEDGEHOG to use in other, original stories.

Ken Penders:

Most writers didn't create an entire freaking playground like I did for KNUCKLES, which is a viable universe of characters and stories without anything included that's owned by Sega.

http://www.kenpenders.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2549&start=50

Good lord.... *insert picture of Knuckles face palming here*

[ThatSpookyGuy59]

Other than the merciless gutting of the Archie comics, I think one of the sad things about this whole thing is that Ender's Lara-Su chronicles might have actually worked had he not made so many atrocious decisions. Had he just simply come out and say that he was making a "spiritual successor" to his M25YL stories using original characters that captured the essence of those from the Archie comics, I would have been genuinely interested.

I won't argue that his writing had gradually degenerated to melodramatic shlock the deeper he delved into the whole Echidna universe he was building for himself, but I did enjoy many elements he introduced. To this day, I still consider Enerjak one of the more interesting villains to be introduced to the series and always lamented how underused he was.

Had Ken did what Keiji Inafune did with his Mighty No.9 project and used his Sonic credentials to appeal to fans of his work, he might have been able to pull this off.

As it is, it seems he's determined to be the instrument of his own destruction.

Oh and, nice to be chatting with everyone else. First time posting so I figured I'd talk about something that's been on my mind since first stumbling upon this thread.

 

Yeah, it still confuses me to this day as to why he couldn't have just made new and original characters instead of going down this route of lawsuits and stuff. Now we have 3D abominations, a confusing plot, and Knuckle's wannabee, 'Wuckles'. I guess I'll never understand.

[antyep]

He knows his work can't stand on their own without Sonic. Lost Ones for example. That was why he ripped the characters he made out of the comics...while screwing with Archie and SEGA in the process for all the misfortunes 'they' gave him.

And damn freakin Chronicles. Is it just me or does he have someone inside the law because all the things he gets away with!

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Other than the merciless gutting of the Archie comics, I think one of the sad things about this whole thing is that Ender's Lara-Su chronicles might have actually worked had he not made so many atrocious decisions. Had he just simply come out and say that he was making a "spiritual successor" to his M25YL stories using original characters that captured the essence of those from the Archie comics, I would have been genuinely interested.

I won't argue that his writing had gradually degenerated to melodramatic shlock the deeper he delved into the whole Echidna universe he was building for himself, but I did enjoy many elements he introduced. To this day, I still consider Enerjak one of the more interesting villains to be introduced to the series and always lamented how underused he was.

Had Ken did what Keiji Inafune did with his Mighty No.9 project and used his Sonic credentials to appeal to fans of his work, he might have been able to pull this off.

As it is, it seems he's determined to be the instrument of his own destruction.

Oh and, nice to be chatting with everyone else. First time posting so I figured I'd talk about something that's been on my mind since first stumbling upon this thread.

Welcome to the forums!

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Yeah, it still confuses me to this day as to why he couldn't have just made new and original characters instead of going down this route of lawsuits and stuff. Now we have 3D abominations, a confusing plot, and Knuckle's wannabee, 'Wuckles'. I guess I'll never understand.

 

You kinda answered your own question: The guy can't write, draw, or do much for a damn. Sonic is pretty much the only "success" he has ever had in his life, so he's going to ride on the coattails of his old success (debatable) to regain public prominence (in his mind).

 

EDIT: ANTYEP NINJAED D:<!

Edited July 15, 2014 by SenEDtor Missile

[rudeartist]

Yeah, it still confuses me to this day as to why he couldn't have just made new and original characters instead of going down this route of lawsuits and stuff. Now we have 3D abominations, a confusing plot, and Knuckle's wannabee, 'Wuckles'. I guess I'll never understand.

Ugh! I still can't look at those 3D models. They remind me of the stuff my teachers used to show us as examples of what NOT to do when I was studying 3D animation.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

So was lurking Ken's forums and found this little gem

http://www.kenpenders.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2549&start=50

Good lord.... *insert picture of Knuckles face palming here*

 

Oh god do I hate listening to this man's ego. Ken created nothing more than clone echidnas for Knuckles and a load of half assed sci-fi shit. That's hardly a big playground for Knuckles. I really really wish Sega would just go to town on him about all this crap he's talking about Knuckles, especially considering this asshole ripped Knuckles off and then claims he can do so because he wrote a story with future Knuckles and then claim he's the only reason that Knuckles' character even got off the ground.

 

Because if that was the truth, I must have missed the parts in Sonic Adventure where Knuckles ran into The Dark Legion and a entire society of echidnas that were on Angel Island and he just couldn't be bothered to check the island.

 

On another note, Am I the only one who thinks It's a little annoying the way he refers to different series and writes them in all caps like SONIC and THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES?

[Disonoid 3000]

So was lurking Ken's forums and found this little gem

http://www.kenpenders.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2549&start=50

Good lord.... *insert picture of Knuckles face palming here*

 

Translation: "Most writers actually did their jobs instead of ignoring established material for the sake of making up their own little universe. "

[goku262002]

I find it funny that this topic alone is attracting new members by the week. Ha! guess penders has that effect on people.

 

Ken Penders:

Most writers didn't create an entire freaking playground like I did for KNUCKLES, which is a viable universe of characters and stories without anything included that's owned by Sega.

Good lord....

There.

You created a travesty you fucking asshole! you were poison to this comic, literal poison.

[rudeartist]

Oh god do I hate listening to this man's ego. Ken created nothing more than clone echidnas for Knuckles and a load of half assed sci-fi shit. That's hardly a big playground for Knuckles. I really really wish Sega would just go to town on him about all this crap he's talking about Knuckles, especially considering this asshole ripped Knuckles off and then claims he can do so because he wrote a story with future Knuckles and then claim he's the only reason that Knuckles' character even got off the ground.

 

Because if that was the truth, I must have missed the parts in Sonic Adventure where Knuckles ran into The Dark Legion and a entire society of echidnas that were on Angel Island and he just couldn't be bothered to check the island.

 

On another note, Am I the only one who thinks It's a little annoying the way he refers to different series and writes them in all caps like SONIC and THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES?

I love the fact that he prides himself on creating a group of villains that are more or less a combination of the Sith from Star Wars and The Borg from Star Trek. Oh and let's not forget creepy Nazi undertones he added to them later. (Hail Dimitri, anyone?)