For True Story (Boss)

[Indigo Rush]

I'll try to put this as nicely as I can.
 

you know if you dont like the damn topic DONT POST! plus i never said it was fact so .... yeah. its my opinion.
 
easy. take your hate for me and my topic somewhere else. (talking about the first few posts)

 

Right on cue.
 
Listen, Sonikku, honey, gal, amiga, hombre, comrade*: if this is how you're going to deal with constructive criticism every single time, then you're the one who should be having second thoughts about posting what you think. 
 
You have an opinion. That's wonderful. Everyone has an opinion. Some opinions are unpopular.

Let me try to emphasize with you. Me? I like Sonic 4. As you know, that's very unpopular around these here parts. But when I defend my opinion, I make every effort to find a combination of objective truth to corroborate my subjective analysis. I don't deny the problems that a certain game has, but I feel like I can reasonably like something without having to compromise my common sense. I feel like the same can be applied to anybody who enjoys Sonic '06. There's certainly a number of things people can like about it, and hey, if they're able to circumvent the game's numerous problems in order to find honest enjoyment out of it, then all the power to them. They're probably tougher than I am. But that's not the case.
 
You see, opinions aren't the problem here.
 
You stated something you thought of fact as an opinion, and yet...
 

My opinion? Hell no. I like Sonics friends in all but the final final should be reserve for Sonic only. Only Sonic has a strength courage and brave to beat the monster of the day. Plus its call Sonic the Hedgehog. In Shadows game Shadow faught the final boss and no problems because we know its called Shadow. But why is it a problem for Sonic to fight the final boss??

 
...you gave a very weak and baseless defense for it. 
 
Simply having an opinion doesn't immunize you from constructive criticism of it. The second I tell people that I enjoy Sonic 4, I'm well aware and ready to face the consequences of everyone else's constructive criticism. I find it rather fun, actually, because I can utilize my logic and objective analysis to make a pretty strong case as to how I can find enjoyment out of it.

But I don't fall back on feelings or emotions to prove my point. You, on the other hand, do this every time, and it's grating.  
 
Every time you try to defend your opinions, it's always very shaky and emotional. From every time we've discussed topics like this, your defense is little more than "Sonic is the best because he's the best." That's like saying "grass is purple because grass is purple." That doesn't quite satisfy what we want to know out of your opinion.

 

Now, the biggest issue is when you receive the criticism, and immediately assume that everyone here has a personal vendetta against you and hates you on a personal level. Rather than either admit you're wrong or stick to your guns and give a reasonable defense of your opinion, you shrink back and say "it's MY opinion, stop hating me, if you don't like it, don't post!"

 

Listen. A forum is built for the purposes of communicating news, information, excitement and dread, and facilitates thoughtful discussion, debates and the exchanging of opinions. Whenever you show off your opinion, you need to be ready to explain yourself, because not one person is free from criticism.

 

I have to deal with criticism every day inside and outside of these forums, and I know that anybody who engages in a discussion with me about a particular topic does so without any malicious intent or personal vendettas. The two are not usually correlated. One may certainly affect the other, but when it does, that's not necessarily a sign of good moral character, either. 

 

Accusing us of hating you because we disagree with your opinion is just the same as accusing us here of having bad moral character. You victimize yourself and act like everyone here hates you when in reality we're simply challenging your opinion, which, on an internet forum,  is going to happen.

 

 

 

I hope that spoke to you in some way. I'm getting tired of seeing myself and others have to explain to you that our disagreements with your opinion are not the same as us rejecting you as a member or a person. I'm not going to explain it to you again, and whether or not you interpret this very admonition as a personal attack or not (it's not) is your prerogative. 

 

*Comrade and all other related terminology is copyright Sixth Rate Soma and all other related entities. 

[Diogenes]

I think the format of the series, both in story and gameplay, lends best to the finale focusing on Sonic alone, but I don't mind other characters getting involved when it makes sense. SA2, for example, had the duality theme, so it made sense for the climax to focus on Sonic and his counterpart. Likewise Heroes had its teamwork focus, '06 tried to scrape something together based on past/present/future (although it's pretty much a mess), and Generations had Classic and Modern Sonics. There's also Unleashed, which had its light/dark duality, though in this case it's the Gaias that play into the theme whereas Sonic is a thematic outlier (which is an interesting perspective for the series to take, making it seem like Sonic's muscled in on a fight that isn't really "his", instead of him being the big hero who saves everyone because hero hero hero).

If there's not a clear thematic reason for other characters to be involved, though, I think it's better if they aren't. Logically it might make sense to throw everyone strong enough to make a difference at the big monster, but that's not necessarily what's most satisfying. If you took SA2, and made it Sonic, Shadow, and Knuckles just because Knuckles has a (quasi-canon) Super form...you lose the focus on the duality theme. Knuckles ends up being a third wheel to the two equally-matched Super hedgehogs, and ends up kind of unjustifiably elevated over the 3 other playable characters.

Now there's a lot of games that don't really have a clear thematic focus that guides who should be in the final battle. Colors, for example, doesn't really have a strong thematic justification for ejecting Tails and being a Sonic-only climax. Except, you see the majority of the game through Sonic, alone. Tails isn't a factor in the levels. And the consistency of it sort of builds its own theme (whether it was done intentionally or not), and there's not really a strong reason to break that for the final boss. Essentially, in the absence of a clear focus, the nature of the games tend to push focus on the sole player character.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I'll try to put this as nicely as I can.

 

 

Right on cue.

 

Listen, Sonikku, honey, gal, amiga, hombre, comrade*: if this is how you're going to deal with constructive criticism every single time, then you're the one who should be having second thoughts about posting what you think. 

 

You have an opinion. That's wonderful. Everyone has an opinion. Some opinions are unpopular.

Let me try to emphasize with you. Me? I like Sonic 4. As you know, that's very unpopular around these here parts. But when I defend my opinion, I make every effort to find a combination of objective truth to corroborate my subjective analysis. I don't deny the problems that a certain game has, but I feel like I can reasonably like something without having to compromise my common sense. I feel like the same can be applied to anybody who enjoys Sonic '06. There's certainly a number of things people can like about it, and hey, if they're able to circumvent the game's numerous problems in order to find honest enjoyment out of it, then all the power to you. You're probably tougher than I am. But that's not the case.

 

You see, opinions aren't the problem here.

 

You stated something you thought of fact as an opinion, and yet...

 

 

...you gave a very weak and baseless defense for it. 

 

Simply having an opinion doesn't immunize you from constructive criticism of it. The second I tell people that I enjoy Sonic 4, I'm well aware and ready to face the consequences of everyone else's constructive criticism. I find it rather fun, actually, because I can utilize my logic and objective analysis to make a pretty strong case as to how I can find enjoyment out of it.

But I don't fall back on feelings or emotions to prove my point. You, on the other hand, do this every time, and it's grating.  

 

Every time you try to defend your opinions, it's always very shaky and emotional. From every time we've discussed topics like this, your defense is little more than "Sonic is the best because he's the best." That's like saying "grass is purple because grass is purple." That doesn't quite satisfy what we want to know out of your opinion.

 

Now, the biggest issue is when you receive the criticism, and immediately assume that everyone here has a personal vendetta against you and hates you on a personal level. Rather than either admit you're wrong or stick to your guns and give a reasonable defense of your opinion, you shrink back and say "it's MY opinion, stop hating me, if you don't like it, don't post!"

 

Listen. A forum is built for the purposes of communicating news, information, excitement and dread, and facilitates thoughtful discussion, debates and the exchanging of opinions. Whenever you show off your opinion, you need to be ready to explain yourself, because not one person is free from criticism.

 

I have to deal with criticism every day inside and outside of these forums, and I know that anybody who engages in a discussion with me about a particular topic does so without any malicious intent or personal vendettas. The two are not usually correlated. One may certainly affect the other, but when it does, that's not necessarily a sign of good moral character, either. 

 

Accusing us of hating you because we disagree with your opinion is just the same as accusing us here of having bad moral character. You victimize yourself and act like everyone here hates you when in reality we're simply challenging your opinion, which, on an internet forum,  is going to happen.

 

 

 

I hope that spoke to you in some way. I'm getting tired of seeing myself and others have to explain to you that our disagreements with your opinion are not the same as us rejecting you as a member or a person. I'm not going to explain it to you again, and whether or not you interpret this very admonition as a personal attack or not (it's not) is your prerogative. 

 

*Comrade and all other related terminology is copyright Sixth Rate Soma and all other related entities. 

 

I understand. I was just upset at the rude comments like "this is another Sonic rules everyone else sucks" thread when its not. Just because I think that Sonic is the one to figh the final doesnt mean I think his friends suck. They dont suck. I have no issue with your post at all. It was the whole "this is what kind of thread it is" comment(s) that bother me. Im sorry that I make you upset. I want to to respond to your points.

[Tara]

you know if you dont like the damn topic DONT POST! plus i never said it was fact so .... yeah. its my opinion.

 

easy. take your hate for me and my topic somewhere else. (talking about the first few posts)

Instead of getting bent out of shape here, it would be better to report the comments in question and leave it to a moderator.  You're seriously not helping your case, nor are you giving us a good reason not to strike you next time you pull another one of these outbursts.  I understand you're upset, but self-control is an important aspect to contributing to a forum.

 

For the record, the only reason I'm not striking you now is because I have to get ready for school and don't have time to write up the report.  But we know this is far from your first time doing this sort of thing.  So please refrain in the future.

 

But thats not fair. I have nothing to hide. I said what I think. I like Sonic being the focus and the playable character. If playable friends are there I like the extra zone or true story where Sonic fights the final boss. Whats wrong with that? I mean why do you think that this = hating Sonics friends? You guys have this thing to where if you like solo Sonic then you hate Sonics friends. Stop. It isnt true at all. I can love Sonics friends and want Sonic to the one to fight the final boss. I like that they cheer for him giving him SUPPORTS because thats what friends DO.

 

I want to to see them support him in this boss fights.

I've always been raised under the belief that hatred is an action, not an emotion.  You may not emotionally hate Sonic's friends, but the way you're describing your preferred role for them in the series seems pretty hateful to me.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Instead of getting bent out of shape here, it would be better to report the comments in question and leave it to a moderator.  You're seriously not helping your case, nor are you giving us a good reason not to strike you next time you pull another one of these outbursts.  I understand you're upset, but self-control is an important aspect to contributing to a forum.

 

For the record, the only reason I'm not striking you now is because I have to get ready for school and don't have time to write up the report.  But we know this is far from your first time doing this sort of thing.  So please refrain in the future.

 

Im sorry.

 

 

I've always been raised under the belief that hatred is an action, not an emotion. You may not emotionally hate Sonic's friends, but the way you're describing your preferred role for them in the series seems pretty hateful to me.

 

How is wanting them to support Sonic = to hating Sonic friends? I really dont understand. Friends support each other wherter is cheering or helping. So Sonics friends cheering him on is supporting tim thus its doing something because they are assure Sonic that he can do it and I find it nice for them to do that. Seeing my other favorite characters (Silver and Knuckles) cheer him on put a smile on my face.

[Zaysho]

But thats not fair. I have nothing to hide. I said what I think. I like Sonic being the focus and the playable character. If playable friends are there I like the extra zone or true story where Sonic fights the final boss. Whats wrong with that? I mean why do you think that this = hating Sonics friends? You guys have this thing to where if you like solo Sonic then you hate Sonics friends. Stop. It isnt true at all. I can love Sonics friends and want Sonic to the one to fight the final boss. I like that they cheer for him giving him SUPPORTS because thats what friends DO.

 

I want to to see them support him in this boss fights.

And if you're getting your teeth knocked out, friends should be ready to jump in and actually help in the fight. Cheering from the sidelines makes these characters look weak and incapable of doing anything but stroking Sonic's ego, which seems at odds for many of these characters, including Shadow, Knuckles, Blaze, the Chaotix, etc. They have just as much of a stake in the outcome of the battle and deserve a chance to roll up their sleeves (so to speak) and handle something so Sonic can focus on the main battle. If it means going up against a badnik horde or taking care of Eggman while Sonic fights the monster of the week, so be it. There's no reason to sideline them when they can actually be contributing in some way. I just want to see them putting up a fight for once; it's my biggest complaint with Generations by far because these guys should all want revenge for Eggman trapping them in a purgatory and screwing with space and time as he did.

SA2 and Heroes are great examples of this. Even though Sonic's the main focus, the others do their part to clear a path for Sonic to do what he does best. And in Heroes, Sonic actually acknowledges that if it wasn't for his friends, he wouldn't have gotten that far and thanks them. Which is totally in Sonic's character as far as I'm concerned. Even Sonic admits he can't do everything on his own. His friends helping do not diminish Sonic's accomplishments. However, their standing around being cheerleaders and doing nothing diminishes them as characters. And that's just unfair as far as I'm concerned.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I dont mind what Sonic Heroes did at all. As long as its Sonic who fights the final and gets focus. Then I am all for it.

[TCB]

I dont mind what Sonic Heroes did at all. As long as its Sonic who fights the final and gets focus. Then I am all for it.

 

Excuse me if what I post doesn't make sense at all; this is what I'm taking from what you said within Sonic Heroes itself. 

 

But it took (at that point) all three members of Team Sonic to take down Metal Overlord. And the 'focus' of the final cutscene highlighted all four teams, and the VERY final part of that cutscene had this:

 

 

So the focus was, as you can see, on these three as the story finally came to a close on this game. 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Excuse me if what I post doesn't make sense at all; this is what I'm taking from what you said within Sonic Heroes itself. 

 

But it took (at that point) all three members of Team Sonic to take down Metal Overlord. And the 'focus' of the final cutscene highlighted all four teams, and the VERY final part of that cutscene had this:

 

 

So the focus was, as you can see, on these three as the story finally came to a close on this game. 

Yes the focus was on all the teams but Team Sonic got the respect they deserve. itd equal.

[Zaysho]

I dont mind what Sonic Heroes did at all. As long as its Sonic who fights the final and gets focus. Then I am all for it.

In what way is Sonic's friends helping in the final fight taking the focus away from Sonic himself? I can see your point, but I disagree that Sonic is the only who can be allowed to do anything of note. It's like saying the Justice League can't make important contributions in a battle because Superman is there.

[TCB]

Yes the focus was on all the teams but Team Sonic got the respect they deserve. itd equal.

 

That's not how I see it. 

 

They are the main team of the game yeah, but is it more on Sonic there getting all that respect, or the team?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

That's not how I see it. 

 

They are the main team of the game yeah, but is it more on Sonic there getting all that respect, or the team?

Its the team. To me, Sonics team was the only one who was in it for the noble reason and they were in it ot save to world. Of course they deserve some respect and for Tails and Knuckles to help to.

In what way is Sonic's friends helping in the final fight taking the focus away from Sonic himself? I can see your point, but I disagree that Sonic is the only who can be allowed to do anything of note. It's like saying the Justice League can't make important contributions in a battle because Superman is there.

If they do like in Sonic Heroes or Sonic Advenure 2 or even what Chip did then I dont mind. I just want Sonic to have the final punch at the final boss and save the day because its his games. Shadow got the final punch in his game because tis called Shadow.

[TCB]

Its the team. To me, Sonics team was the only one who acted like a team and they were in it ot save to world. Of course they deserve some respect and for Tails and Knuckles to help to.

 

Ah I see, well alright. To be fair, each team had their own motives that drove their trek across the game and with the superpower of teamwork

[Semi-colon e]

Its the team. To me, Sonics team was the only one who acted like a team and they were in it ot save to world. Of course they deserve some respect and for Tails and Knuckles to help to.

If they do like in Sonic Heroes or Sonic Advenure 2 or even what Chip did then I dont mind. I just want Sonic to have the final punch at the final boss and save the day because its his games. Shadow got the final punch in his game because tis called Shadow.

 

Well that's not really fair to say as all four teams were in it to save everything once they realised Metal Overlord was a thing, but before then they all had different motives. Team Dark wanted answers/revenge (Shadow/Omega respectively), Team Rose united over wanting to find their respective friends, and the Chaotix wanted their money, this was a job for them. They all acted as teams.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Well that's not really fair to say as all four teams were in it to save everything once they realised Metal Overlord was a thing, but before then they all had different motives. Team Dark wanted answers/revenge (Shadow/Omega respectively), Team Rose united over wanting to find their respective friends, and the Chaotix wanted their money, this was a job for them. They all acted as teams.

I mean to say that they were in it for the noble reason, to protect the world from Eggman.

[Semi-colon e]

I mean to say that they were in it for the noble reason, to protect the world from Eggman.

 

I'll grant you Teams Dark and Chaotix, but Rose had noble intentions too, with Big wanting to save Froggy and Cream wanting to save Chocola Chao. It may not be grand saving the world heroics, but risking your life to save your friends is still pretty heroic and noble.

[Komodin]

I mean to say that they were in it for the noble reason, to protect the world from Eggman.

 

Wanting answers for what happened to have made you amnesiac isn't noble?

 

Wanting to find your kidnapped friends isn't noble?

 

Wanting to keep a roof over your head and not starve isn't noble?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I'll grant you Teams Dark and Chaotix, but Rose had noble intentions too, with Big wanting to save Froggy and Cream wanting to save Chocola Chao. It may not be grand saving the world heroics, but risking your life to save your friends is still pretty heroic and noble.

If Amy was so Sonic hungry and focus on the mission then yes I would count them. But that part throws me off.

 

Anyway, I like how Team Sonic fight the final boss but the friends help.

[Tails spin]

I mean to say that they were in it for the noble reason, to protect the world from Eggman.

That only because they received the letter from eggman. So technically only the knew of "eggman"'s true motives

[spinny]

If Amy was so Sonic hungry and focus on the mission then yes I would count them. But that part throws me off.

 

Well to be fair she kinda leaves him on the backburner by Casino Park, and focuses herself on helping out Cream and Big... it's called character development.

 

 

Anyway, I like how Team Sonic fight the final boss but the friends help.

 

This... goes against everything you said previously in this topic. Do you want Sonic to fight the boss alone or not?

 

Because that's what we mean. We don't hate Sonic. I like Sonic, he might not be my favourite character, but I like him! Friends aren't there to stand and watch a fight stir up, that's what a random audience at a boxing ring who hardly knows you does.

 

Friends jump in and get their own hands dirty if someone they care for is in danger. Sonic's friends care about him just as much as he does them. But these days, SEGA isn't representing that.

[Zaysho]

Its the team. To me, Sonics team was the only one who acted like a team and they were in it ot save to world. Of course they deserve some respect and for Tails and Knuckles to help to.

All the teams acted like teams/friends though. Just because Sonic led the only team directly concerned with Eggman's/Metal Sonic's plot doesn't change that. And you're ignoring that everyone worked together so Sonic and his team could power up when Metal Sonic reared his head. Also what everyone else said that I just noticed (damn tapatalk)

If they do like in Sonic Heroes or Sonic Advenure 2 or even what Chip did then I dont mind. I just want Sonic to have the final punch at the final boss and save the day because its his games. Shadow got the final punch in his game because tis called Shadow.

Shadow is a slightly different case though and it ignores any help he got up until he was forced to go after Black Doom alone. Black Doom was a far more personal fight first off, and when he had to go after Doom, everyone else was out commission until after Shadow transformed to battle Doom. They cleared the way while Shadow took on Doom and were likely going to help manage the crisis on the surface while that battle was going on. Of course, I'm filling bits and pieces for an incredibly sloppy story. Actually if l go more in-game, their managing to escape the Black Comet is something too. Shadow's not a monster, and he won't risk their safety, but he knows he can go all out once they've escaped and are doing their part even if we don't get to see that. The point is, they're buying time and allowing Shadow to focus. Which is also what Chip did for Sonic ( though I think Sonic was more Chip's helper than the other way around). Which is what ALL of them can do while Sonic takes on the big boss. See I'm actually sort of agreeing with you, but you keep acting like Sonic's friends can't or shouldn't have a part to play in battle. Nobody is trying to deny Sonic the final blow, I'd just rather see these characters do something worthwhile to get him there instead of sitting by and letting Sonic do all the heavy lifting. As I've already said, these characters actually assisting Sonic in no way dimishes his accomplishments.

[StaticMania]

Letting Sonic do ALL the work (in the not specific Sonic only times) = Bad, its not good for Sonic's character and it isn't good for Sonic's friends' character...all it does in the end is make his friends look worthless in comparison and builds more negative reaction from the fans of those characters who are getting barely any focus or even screen time in general.

 

Only letting Sonic's friends cheer from the side lines = Bad, its especially bad if that's their only real purpose besides being rescued...its treating the characters badly and makes them overall pointless to be there in the 1st place. These characters can fight too, some of them have super forms too, there should be no reason they can't help in end game, finale boss battle unless they are completely incapable of actually doing so due to specific circumstances.

 

The fight is not always Sonic's alone, other characters would've also been of major importance to the overall conflict just as much as Sonic would...so them not actually getting to par take in the final battle (Most of the time) is just lame.

[UltDevilDoom]

Super forms are okay sometimes, but I really want another way to fight the final boss.

 

Sonic Colors had a decent final boss without super characters. I would like to see more of that with characters besides Sonic.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

 

 

This... goes against everything you said previously in this topic. Do you want Sonic to fight the boss alone or not?

 

 

 I want him to have the final punch. I want him te fight the final boss on his own like it was in Sonic Advance Moon Zone and such. But I dont mind his friends making a path for that to be possible.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Why must it be on his own? I understand that being case for some situations if it's explained, but it runs the risk of becoming outright ludicrous when characters just as capable are sidelined to the cheerleader section.