"Sonic Dissected" Dissected: (LEGO) Sonic Dimensions As You Truly Imagined It

[Kat]

For some reason the "The characters have to believe in their own world" line was a total revelation for me. It's something that I find incredibly important (not just with Sonic), but never knew how to put into words. 

Each of your videos has at least one of those light-bulb moments for me, when I learn how to name something that I've been wondering about before.

So, uh, er, no content nitpicking from here xD.

[Marioroxmysox]

Okay. I WAS a bit rusty here. And I would like to establish some things, while trying to be open minded on a few things:

 

Saw the Pacman show, one episode. It, uhhh...Terrified me. Glad I'm not a pacman fan and I feel for them.
Tough not sure if Pacman's personality was that popular to begin with, but then again my girlfriend is a big fan of his Supernintendo adventure game so it's possible.

 

Already Saw Pacman and I don't think a comparison is fair as Sonic has an identity as "cool and hip for the kids" while Pacman never had much of an identity.
Altough True, I suppose him being a housefather is a cool twist since that's a very unique element we never see videogame heroes have, especially not mascottes.
Never the less, it's comparing apples and oranges, so nah.
Not to mention I'll be really sad and depressed if Sonic Boom becomes comparible with Pacman's  ghostly adventures.
Except for the envirements, I kinda like how Pacman's futuristic city looks like and wish Sonic Boom used more vibrant settings like that.

 

Well, that's why I said Sonic Boom would be an improvement: Because where as Sonic Boom would still have SOME sort of a tribute to Sonic while retaining what's important, Pac-Man and the Ghostly Adventures threw EVERYTHING we knew about Pac-Man AND Pac-Land out the window.  Just look at THIS: http://royalboiler.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/pacland.jpg?w=800

 

This is a Flyer of the Pac-Land Arcade Game. And you can see the vast enviornments that Pac-Man could explore there: The City, the Village, the Desert, the Jungle, and the Mountain Range. Even if the envionrments are small, the Land is breathtaking. The Simplicity of Pac-Land is better than clustering joke of a Ripoff of Montropolis, Japan from Mega Man

(PacOpolis: http://us.cdn281.fansshare.com/photos/pacman/pacopolis-pac-man-outline-1566698717.jpg

Monstropolis: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130201174254/megamanfanon/images/7/7a/MM9City.png)

Also, which villain do you want, one who is motivated like Eggman, or one who's less motivated like Betrayus... eventhough the name Betrayus is a terrible name to give. The name has to be earned like a title, NOT named since day one. It's very understandable that Dr. Eggman was Dr. Robotnik in the other countries that are not Asian, especially when introducing the name Eggman in Sonic Adventure, but Betrayus was NEVER given a real name, just Betrayus. It's like naming your kid "Goblin" and he goes of causing havoc in New York, or "Joker" and he makes horrible pranks on the citizens. That and Betrayus is no better than Pac-Man. If Pac-Man is a Glutton, Betrayus is a sloth! He never keeps track of his own ghosts, rather he keeps track of Pac-Man. And when the ghosts fail, he blames Butt-ler and Dr. Buttocks (Dr. Weird called, he wants his joke name back:

). I have NO faith in the Ghostly Adventures what so ever. I'd rather play Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man, Jr. Pac-Man, Super Pac-Man, Pac-Land, Pac-Man World 1, 2 and 3, and Pac-Man 2: the New Adventures ("Hello Pac-Man" in Japan, BTW, is that the game you're talking about?), than to watch this attrocity. Here's a video of the Hanna-Barbera cartoon to understand the problem, especially considering that Pac-Man is NOT a huge Glutton:

 

Yeah, I like Sonic to be able to talk to his friends.
Wasn't planning on going on about Knuckles anymore until the show is out, tough had to nod at the design again before I get 500 "so you LIKe his new design now? betrayel!" emails again.
To be honest some interactions with Knuckles in the released cutscenes were okay, so I'm on the fence on him again.

 

Well, I don't hate Knuckles' design, becuase it was to show he's strong. I wish I would go in-depth, but it'll be better if we leave it simple as that: "Knuckles looks like that becuase he's strong" BOOM! simple.

Also, yeah, We'll hope for the better that his character is more active than his previous incarnation.
 

About Tails's flying ability making Knuckles gliding pointless, err question, will Tails be flying that much in this game? I haven't seen footage of him flying outside of the first trailer.
Not to mention there's Amy's triple jump and Frost stated Amy is his favorite character. I fear Tails's flying ability will be limited to only specific parts in the level, just like Knuckles. So it'll be less "figure out who can traverse this stage" and more a   "Oh, here's a Tails fly spot. Guess I have to use Tails here."  thing.
But that's just me asuming and jumping to conclusions, so I'll stop right there.
Let's just say it's a worry in my gut and leave it at that.

 

Yeah, jumping to conclusions is not a good thing. Also, when I say Knuckles not flying because that what Tails is there for, What I'm trying to say is that Some characters have important aspects, like Knuckles climbing on Walls. But you saying "Frost stated Amy is his favorite character" and "I fear Tails's flying ability will be limited to only specific parts in the level, just like Knuckles"... Well... let's not get carried away like that. I just hope they actually know what they're doing and focus on certain parts of the characters they're using. Besides, there wasn't much to cover on Tails yet.

Comedy is a complicated thing, it depends on context, who's saying it, why they're saying it.
The "This is a low budget flight" is a action one liner, a statement of authority on enemies that captured him.
I don't mind those, as long as they're earned (Which is my problem with most aciton one liners in the modern games, the enemies have so little dignity or sense of threat that it just feels like bullying and not a cool James Bond one liner. If Eggman was kicking ass and capturing animals and holding big speeches and THEN Sonic comes in insulting him, it's great. But here he's constantly being insulted by his own robots, flailing around hopelessly and even undermining his own authority (I know I say this everytime but THIS time I'll succeed!) Sonic coming in and pouring even more salt on the wound is not exciting anymore.)

I am probably nit picking here,  but in my gut it feels completely diffrent. Just one feels like embracing adventure to me " You want me? Come and get me! Whoo!" and the other like deteachment. "Oh, it's that loser again.". Subtle but vital importance.

But that's that. The jokes I'm worried about in Boom are of a diffrent nature, more 4th wall breaky.
I want Sonic the humorous rebel, not Sonic the meta stand up comedian.

 

 

Look, I know that comedy isn't simple, but sometimes we just wanted to get a good laugh as long as the personality is STRONG enough. This is a SPINOFF Series NOT a MAIN series. Don't try to connect Sonic Boom to the main plot. Also, the Nostalgia Critic made an editorial about "Stupid Humor", and I can understand where that's going:

However, even in YOUR CASE, "Stupid Humor" has to be earned now. But I guess, we'll just see about it now.

However, do you know what's NOT a good way to get a good laugh? Squidward Torture Porn. Don't know what that is? Then you've been warned:

Getting back on topic, Sonic and the Gang are going to live in Sonic Boom's South Island (I'm going to call it that until they give us a name for the Island), and stay there. And like you said before in Sonic Lost World, and what the main problem is with Sonic Colors to Sonic Lost World, Sonic heads to a colorful place, stops Eggman, then goes back to the bland place he was in before. So just be glad this formula was repeated a thousand times.
 

Man I WISH Eggman was like Bowser. Bowser's a freaking bad ass in most games. That Mario 3d land climax was intense, Mario jumping from platform to platform crumbling apart while Bowser is in full pursuit shooting lasers. Bowser is intense ,he's big, he growls, he's dangerous.
And even when he's used for comedy like in Mario and Luigi saga, he has AUTHORITY.
He's funny because he's the big guy in charge, screaming at his poor subjects.
The only game I can remember where Bowser was a bit of a loser is Mario Sunshine and even there he's still better then Eggman.
YES, PLEASE give me Eggman inspired by Bowser.

Current Eggman isn't Bowser, he's closer to Doofensmith from Phineas and Ferb, except at least Perry takes the guy serious, so even HE has more dignity.

 

Well, I guess maybe you should've used Doofenshmirtz as the better example then... and the reason we took Doof serious is because PERRY DOESN'T TALK!

?! When the heck did I EVER say that? I even complimented that I loved the designs, especially Eggman!
it's only Knuckles I'm worried about, everything else is cool. Or are you just referring to Sonic fans in general now?

I LIKE the redesigns.
HOWEVER, I absolutely DESPISE your justification of "There's a logical reason for their design so it's good."
By that logic, I can have a Sonic redisgn where his face is all bloated and his eyes pop out and there's bloodveins and puss everywhere because "Hey, if you run at enormous speed without face protection and had so many dangerous adventures, having your face look like a half decayed corpse is logical!"

Just having a realistic reason isn't justification to do whatever.
Again, I LIKE most of the designs, but let's not kid ourselves here, they're redesigned to make them look cool, not to make them realistic or obey any laws of physics. Because if we're going to do that there's a whole lot more extreme things you gotta change.
As if sportstape will help if you go 500 MPH while being fired at by rockets.
So less "Sonic runs fast so he needs sportstape to avoid medical injuries." and more "Sportstape provides a sense of speed and it helps you associate them with real sports people!".

Sonic and friend's redesigns is a delicate balance between being "new", being "Cool for the kids" and being "respectful to the original vision."
And far as I'm concerned, they very much succeed in that ,except with Knuckles the "respect to the original vision" is a bit out of balance. But again, I said I wouldn't worry or stress too much about it anymore, so whatever, I can deal with it. Just sayin'.

 

 

Well, I should've been a bit more clear on that... and I guess I was a bit too hyper when I saw those trailers, plus, school has been putting me down. Look, I know they're cartoon characters, but at least they're showing "safety first". Just think about the children for a second: kids in their early state don't know how control themselves, nor will they learn any moral. If kids watch what they see on TV, like those Squidward Torture Porns, the end result will vary. Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog was one of those shows that give a PSA at the end of each cartoon teaching a very important lesson; like Captain Planet, or G.I. Joe (BTW, I'm not into those two shows, even though I saw Captain Planet when I was a kid, but I was very young and didn't know any better).
Sonic Boom, in terms of those "redesigns, was more of a parental bonus, and to make kids think why they look like that, the sooner they look at the original. Again, I don't mind those redesigns, as long as they know what they're doing. It's more of a poetic liscense. Just ask anyone, if those redesigns from Sonic Boom is more forgivable than that of Pac-Man the Ghostly Adventures.

 

And that's my Two Cents. Hope you can understand how I feel about it. Besides, everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, just don't be like these guys:

Confused Matthew, he's so close-minded about characters personalities and situations:

And the Irate Gamer, who's bad at the controls, he blames at everything:

 

[Roger_van_der_weide]

I'm okay with stupid humor, Spongebob and Regular show and Emporer's new groove had tons of stupid humor and I love it.
Heck, my own cartoons are filled with stupid humor.
The diffrence is, Sonic's not an complete comedy, it's a comedy adventure, so it requires more balance.
Which is what I kinda said in the last Dissected, if Sonic went full crazy cartoon I'd be a lot more lenient and relaxed.
It's the fact It's an adventure and I'm supposed to genuinely care about these characters that causes me to be more strict with the humor.

When I make internet spoofs for youtube, I can do whatever I want, as long as it's funny because it's just a thing.
I can destroy the characters and premise in those, that's kinda the point. Little what-if scenario's, little thought experiments.
But within the "canon" of a story, if you use humor that destroys the 4th wall, characters and premise...Then you're left with nothing.
So fine, Sonic Boom is a spin off and has nothing to do with the rest of the Sonic series and does it own thing.
So technically they can turn Eggman into a drooling vegetable and I can't complain about it.

Tough Sonic Boom then better not expect me to be excited and interested or have any emotional investment in Eggman other then "say something funny and fart off again".
Sonic Boom sets itself up as an adventure, the designs are adventurous and the writers sound excited about exploring characters and and themes.
So without getting Sonic's previous history involved, based on their intend, I'm still raising an eyebrow up in worry.

[Marioroxmysox]

So, it's hard for you to get to this kind of humor when this kind of humor is shown also to adults. I understand. But, here's the thing, Sonic Boom is to introduce kids who want to know about Sonic; and ages 7 - 10 would be a good start, because ages 3 - 10 would be the age where kids wouldn't understand any moral yet. And if they didn't understand moral yet, they wouldn't understand comedy yet either.

 

However, even if the jokes fail, the references have to be respected. I know Sonic's 4th Wall Breaking is not THAT good, but if you think that's bad, I think Pac-Man and the Ghostly Adventures did worse. They had a Pac-Man Arcade Game in the School WAY BEFORE Pac-Man saved the world, worse than the Double Dragon Movie:

(12:55 - 13:39), Pac-Man rips off Kirby when using Power-Pellets (most likely because of the costumes he gets, the Pac-Man World series did it first, but it's more like Mario 64 and it's subtle by comparison), and worst of all, the Maze that Pac-Man went to that was SUPPOSE to be a reference to Maze 256 (which is a glitch), fails to be a reference to the glitch! If they want to the reference to the 256 glitch, the Maze should've been Futuristic, abandonded, electrical wires exposed, and also falling apart, with pieces of debris falling, trying to hurt our heroes. But instead, it's just a plain old hedge maze... it's boring.

 

Look, I know you're a tough cookie to break, and that NOT EVERYONE will like the same thing. I don't like Disney's the Little Mermaid because of it's moral, but everyone else liked it because of it's animation and songs. Whatever doesn't work with you, may work with others. Perhaps this is a very good reason to have special guests on the Dissected Series. And it's a good thing to have a wide screen, that way there's space for people to be in, even in the middle.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

I don't..understand..your arguments?
You counter my "I hate their 4th wall jokes" worry by pointing out how much you hate 4th wall breaking jokes on a diffrent show and that's supposed to prove me wrong? What?


Pac-man is a lot worse then Sonic Boom? Well yeah, I was never arguiing against that.
Sounds like a shame they got so many things wrong.
So fine, things exist that are worse then Sonic Boom.
I never said "Sonic Boom is the worst thing ever", I just said I had some worries about my enjoyment of the show.
As for Pac man, I already said that show made me uncomfortable right from the get go.
 

Ahh, the classic "it's for kids" arguments. True, kids won't care about my standards of humor. They probably won't catch up to it. So alright.
Far as I remember when I was a kid, every joke an action cartoon made went over my head, mostly because they were too stupid, usually a character making a pun or referencing something that happened in the episode with results in every character on screen having a huge laugh about it. Less "I don't get the joke" as more "Confused why something so lame is considered funny". Always confused me as a kid and it felt less like "they're making a joke"  and more as "everyone emits strange noises from their mouths to signal the episode is over".
So fine, if Sonic Boom's going for that level of quality, alrighty then.
If there's plenty of action in the show I'd probably watch it as a kid. Not "Set my alarm clock to wake up an hour early to catch it" but at least "Tolerate it while waiting for Power Rangers to start." For kid's it'll be alright.
 

 

So it's not the worst show ever and kids will tolerate it too.
I'll give Sonic Boom these points, hope it's proud of them.

 

Man, I don't even want to be this cynical about the show/ game.
As I said, it's just worries I have, it can still be awesome. It has some interesting and even awesome ideas, it all depends on the execution.

[Marioroxmysox]

With that, Roger, I can understand it now. Well, don't let your worries bother you, Roger. Yes, we get upset about certain things that makes it too extreme for our obsessions. So, why don't we forget about those "worries" and just focus on what CHILDREN think.

 

When they are young, Kids had to develop a personality of their own, and it takes inspiration. When it comes to "Sonic Boom" and "Ghostly Adventures", there should be a difference.

Pac-Man and the Ghostly Adventures only went for the 1-dimensional characteristics of Gluttony (in a sinful way, and that's not good) in the Pac-Man Arcade Game and not the 3-dimensional characteristics of Pac-Man being Adventurous in the later Pac-Man Games.

Sonic Boom, however, sticked with a simple plot that doesn't need to be fixed: a superhero of an animal and his freedom-fighting teammates stop a mad polluting scientist of a dictator.

 

Now, to kids: action speaks louder than words. They also need role models to look up to them, like a parent or a teacher. So, try to hear me out by this compare and contrast: if Pac-Man, as a gluttonous teenager, continues to eat a lot of junk food, and not healthy food (which BTW, Pac-Man is suppose to eat HEALTHY in the original games), the kids will make pigs out of themselves and get diabetes, and that's not a good message, especially when he's not helping out his friends. If the "Ghostly Adventures" was made in the 80s (because of the popularity of the Arcade game in 1980, and how it encourages to eat more food) it would make sense, but it's not in the 80s, so it's giving the wrong message. That's why I was getting upset about it, and that I said the references were worse than Sonic Boom.

Sonic gives himself protective gear (sports tape on his arms, legs, hands and feet, and a scarf for his neck), so when Sonic does some running around, he won't get injuries like neck pains, it will encourage kids to put on safety gear, like knee pads or bike helmets. It makes a lot of sense, because Sonic ONCE did some Sonic Sez segments back in his days, even when he made one involving Bicycle Safety. This is a huge difference.

 

Now, I'm not trying to call you out, but you, at one point, use to talk "Children's Psychology": https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1q2tLUN5DE0#t=832

(13:52 - 15:09) (BTW, Psychologists is pronounced sigh-call-law-jists... you got it right the first time). Although, my cousins are not that smart yet, and we're in an era where the education system is broken, we've got a long time to get into that.

 

So, for the kids of today, would you want a Lazy Gluttonous Jerk who doesn't care about his friends or an Active Protective Hero who DOES care about his friends?

[Kuzu]

Wow, two updates in one day. Is this real life.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TearForFear]

Latest episode here.

 

 

I still believe SLW's plot has a good flow... if you look it from a certain angle, that is.

 

As I previously said

 

 

Sounds a lot like Tails' story arc in Lost World for me

 

Adventure: Tails joins Sonic in another adventure to save critters and ruin Eggman's plans in a new world

Supernatural Aid: his intelligence and his Miles Electric (along with his two tails of course)

The threshold gets crossed when he's forced to join forces with Eggman.

Challanges and Temptations: Tails is so obsessed in proving to Sonic that he's better than Eggman, that he obnoxiously badmouths the doctor at every occasion and tries to fix Cubot, but fails spectacularly.

Abyss: he loses so many points in Sonic's eyes, that the hedgehog scolds him for the Cubot incident and doesn't listen to him anymore when the fox tries to warn him about the trap.

Death: Tails sacrifices himself to save Sonic's life and gets captured by the Zeti, who wants him to become their robotic slave.

Rebirth: Tails manages to save himself from the robotizer.

Transformation: literally and figuratively. He's a robot (or at least he has a removable robotic armor), and he finally gets a chance to be useful in a good way, by scaring the Zeti and curing Sonic from his depression.

Atonement: he accepts Sonic's apologies with ease and assures him that everything is water under the bridge.Thus, Tails atones for his a**hole-ish behaviours in the first half of the story.

Gift of the goddess: the planet's energy goes back to its rightful owners.

Return: Tails returns to Earth with Sonic to receive Amy's compliments.

 

About the "when did Sonic doubt Tails?" issue: it was clearly when Sonic accepted Eggman's aid and defended his decision in Frozen Factory.

 

About the "Tails is (not) a robot" issue, while it was a wasted plot point, Tails still did two very important things with it.

 

1: he used his skill to something successfull and proved his worth as a techno-genius.

 

2: he saved Sonic from his increasing depression and lonelyness, and brought him hope, happyness and will to fight.

 

Seriously, Sonic's reaction deserved more than a blink-and-you-miss-it moment.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

Excellent point Fear Tear, I bring it up in the next video.
My issue with this however is

Tails's bad behaviour is because he's over-confident, unreasonable and self obsessed while Sonic is just trying to humor the doctor and increasing his chances to save the world.

So Tails acting like a cool bad ass at the end is nice and everything but that's not what his character arc is about. I don't need to see him prove to us he's awesome at doing technical things ( he already fixed the plane with no problems), I want him to show more humility.
Instead the opposite happens, so much that it's Sonic who's apologizing to him even tough Sonic's been reasonable.

Tiny details like Tails going "No, I need to apologize to you buddy" at the end would have greatly helped but instead he's in complete "Look at how awesome I am!" mode which rubs me in the wrong way. It's a heroes journey alright, but 2 halves of entirely diffrent hero journeys glued together.

 

[Mauro Fonseca]

Sonic has not been reasonable. Eggman has not given them a reason to trust him and there's no reason to believe Tails wouldn't be able to help. Sonic accepts Eggman's help out of regret that his actions doomed the planet, which is not a reasonable thing- he's despairingly clutching at anything that might repent him, so Tails rightfully feels Sonic isn't trusting him, when he should, when all the adventures they had point that he should, and is instead suddenly and willingly trusting the guy who's always done crap.

[pppp]

No matter how we look at it, Lost World's plot structure is crap, regardless of who was being unreasonable. The rushed script can't get its themes across.

[TearForFear]

Excellent point Fear Tear, I bring it up in the next video.

 

Wow, thanks

 

 

Tiny details like Tails going "No, I need to apologize to you buddy" at the end would have greatly helped but instead he's in complete "Look at how awesome I am!" mode which rubs me in the wrong way. It's a heroes journey alright, but 2 halves of entirely diffrent hero journeys glued together.

 

Well actually his "oh, here's something not even Eggman can do: I reprogrammed the machine etcetera etcetera etcetera" is aimed at Eggman

 

which is actually not confirmed since Eggman didn't even want to reprogram the machine, so Tails' assumption is not 100% true. But that's another point

 

while he replied to Sonic's apologize with "it' cool" as if (but it's just my interpretation) "don't mention it, there's no need to".

 

 

 

Was Tails supposed to say sorry for his former behavior? Maybe to us, the viewers and players, but since Tails doesn't know there's an audience and it was clear that Sonic wasn't mad at him anymore, I think it's all okay.

 

 

 

I agree that SLW's plot has many many flaws and the dialogues needed more... well, words, explanations and clarification.

But I'm glad Pontac and Graff didn't go any further. If they did, I believe they'd write a bunch of corny, obvious and unnatural dialogues.

Proof? It's in the very same game:

 

 

U DON'T SAY?!?

 

Beside being a sad punchline to Orbot and Cubot's nth joke, it's a very stupid and obvious thing to say. We know that Tails being turned into a borg is bad, we're not stupid

 

So yeah, I'm glad the writing was concise, for most of the game

[TearForFear]

Wow, he's fast!

 

 

First off Roger, thank you for mention me and posting my... well, post

 

And in retrospect, I'm glad I choose FearTear as my nickname. It sounds so good

 

You covered every nook and cranny of the "Tails Arc" without missing anything.

 

The conclusion I can make is that P&G (or SEGA, since they programmed the final boss) were too afraid to break the status quo and decided to make Eggman the unredeemable villain and big bad.

 

 

Good video and analisys, I liked it

[Nepenthe]

Sonic has not been reasonable. Eggman has not given them a reason to trust him and there's no reason to believe Tails wouldn't be able to help. Sonic accepts Eggman's help out of regret that his actions doomed the planet, which is not a reasonable thing- he's despairingly clutching at anything that might repent him, so Tails rightfully feels Sonic isn't trusting him, when he should, when all the adventures they had point that he should, and is instead suddenly and willingly trusting the guy who's always done crap.

 

Every single time some Big Bad took over and threatened to destroy the planet, Eggman jumped onto the team to help if he hadn't been swatted out of the way. So what happened in Lost World to force the three of them in that situation wasn't without precedent, nor was it without Sonic initially protesting the team-up alongside Tails in the first place, the same team-up that Tails himself didn't feel was so morally unjustified until he'd just had it out of nowhere, after a fight he started with Eggman no less. Everyone went into that situation as reluctantly as possible, so based on past encounters, Sonic's actual attitude, and the slipshod plotting and development, there were no trust issues that were clearly and properly outlined and set up before that moment. Watching the cutscenes in order, it literally comes across as Tails just bitching Sonic out for no reason other than the writers deciding to force this kind of rift onto the storyline in order to make Sonic the bad guy and learn an unnecessary lesson.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Every time Eggman helped them it was against a Big Bad other than himself. vs Gerald and the Ark, vs Devil Doom, vs Mephiles and Iblis. In this case it's vs a machine by Eggman that was activated by Eggman. There really was no reason, from Tails' view at least, to trust or need Eggman since he was the one who caused the situation in the first place. And yet because Sonic is feeling guilty it's his fault the situation got out of hand, he feels the need to cover all his bases, when as far as Tails can see, it's obvious Eggman wasn't needed there. And hey, he's justified in the end, so Sonic apologizes. The story works just fine.

[- Eternal Paradox -]

@The KKM - in theory, when you say it like that, then yes.

 

In narrative - No. or at least, not for me. If they had told the story from that angle, then everything would've been fine...

 

Except they didn't. The scenes them-self don't actively contribute to that point, there's no build up. The themes seem disjointed - Hey it's about trust, no it's about working together as team and bonding, no wait it's about sacrifice for greater good, no it's about Sonic being lonely...

 

Now, themes like this can work well on top of each other... as long as there's a cohesive whole behind it... which in this case, there isn't.

 

Also, if Tails felt this way... WHY THE HELL DIDN'T HE SAY SO? Seriously, Tails is intelligent, why instead of ranting and raving like a like kid, or talking about trust, doesn't Tails say "I don't trust Eggman, he's planning something." - even if Sonic waved it away, it would have been a better illustration of the story than Tails just almost out of the blue becoming a stroppy teenager. Hey, how about a "You never listen to me! That's what got us into this mess! And you're doing it again!"

 

Flow is the main problem of this story for me. Taken alone, the cutscenes can make sense. You can even give them context if you wish.

But when put together, they just jar. They don't flow that well, some scenes seem rushed into with no build up, and some are just... a huge let down... Especially the ending...

 

E.I. The story is sound. It could work. The execution of story is what falls flat for me.

[Nepenthe]

Every time Eggman helped them it was against a Big Bad other than himself. vs Gerald and the Ark, vs Devil Doom, vs Mephiles and Iblis. In this case it's vs a machine by Eggman that was activated by Eggman. There really was no reason, from Tails' view at least, to trust or need Eggman since he was the one who caused the situation in the first place. And yet because Sonic is feeling guilty it's his fault the situation got out of hand, he feels the need to cover all his bases, when as far as Tails can see, it's obvious Eggman wasn't needed there. And hey, he's justified in the end, so Sonic apologizes. The story works just fine.

 

While Eggman didn't take on an active role, he was still inevitably on the heroes' side when Metal Sonic went haywire in Heroes. So even then there's context for the good guys confronting a problem Eggman created without them losing their shit that he might do something dastardly while everyone's backs were turned or something.

 

And even if there were never any context for this habit, like if Lost World was the first game in the series or something, the story point that Eggman is inherently untrustworthy even in times of duress is not adequately communicated by the writing and storytelling within the game itself. While Sonic definitely feels guilty that he caused the problem, it's not enough guilt for him to initially accept Eggman's idea point-blank. For two cut scenes before the fallout with Tails, we see him berating Eggman, rebuking any just blame for the problem when it comes from Eggman, being physically disgusted at the idea of teaming-up, and ultimately sticking by Tails' side and making jokes at Eggman's expense. If we're actually supposed to believe that Sonic is just so emotionally wrecked at getting them into the mess in the first place that he's become blind to the potential problems of Eggman's cooperation, then the writers should not have made him a protesting and insulting little asshole. They should have fucking jumped into this plot point like an Olympic Diver at the deep end and actually written Sonic as more emotionally fallible and trusting for the entire duration of the incident. He should have been more confused, more hesitant, more undecided, more conflicted; anything other than his usual cocky and smarmy self. But instead, we only ever see it twice- when the robots go haywire and when Tails again loses his shit for no reason.

 

Or if they couldn't be bothered or be allowed to write Sonic believably, then they should have written the group dynamics and the fall-out scene more consistently and convincingly. While there are insults going on which Sonic says nothing about, only Tails decides for some reason that it's time to come to blows, even though he was the one being a little shit and hurling insults at Eggman without provocation; essentially starting the fight. Sonic rightfully believes you can't get shit done if you're having a fucking physical altercation and wasting time, so that's when he finally intervenes and tries to break up the tension, and furthermore he does so without taking sides, reminding both Tails and Eggman that they are all in this shit together, which inherently implies that no one is useless. It's basically the exact opposite of not trusting any one person in the group.

 

So even with all of this clearly established, the story still decides that Tails is perfectly right to get pissy at Sonic for trusting Eggman more than he trusts Tails because look everyone there's now some emotional drama in this Sonic game, even though both he and Sonic were cooperating for a moment with Eggman, and even though they've cooperated with Eggman in the past, and even they've cooperated with Eggman when he was ultimately responsible for causing the problem that threatened everyone in the first place, and even though Sonic was not too long ago teasing Eggman along with Tails like they were a couple of school kids. All of that became irrelevant when the writers shoe-horned this in.

 

So what the game ultimately teaches us in this moment is that being sensible and mature is wrong, that wanting to get shit over with, reiterating the plan, and trying to prevent a fight from breaking out is literally the exact same is not trusting your best friend, and ultimately that if your own best friend decides one day that you teaming up with someone you don't like is the absolute worst thing ever- even if they didn't say anything about it from the outset, and even if you have a pattern of teaming up with this person in similar circumstances- then they can can be as much of a little cunty fuckwad towards you about it and not have any moral obligation to apologize for their behavior at the end. Their insecurity is your fault and you should be ashamed about it.

 

This plot point is delivered in such a shitty way, and is only done so so it can shit on Sonic, that every time I'm prompted to go at length about it, it makes me angry.

[TearForFear]

Tails' jackassery almost made him killed with the Cubot.Crabmeat. Sonic scolded him. Tails felt bad. After that incident Tails stopped be a jerkass.

 

According to an old saying: if you break a pot, saying sorry won't put its pieces back together.

 

Stopping being a jerkass and shrugging off Sonic's useless apology like it's water under the bridge it's Tails' way to say sorry.

 

 

And, why is (almost) everyone angry at Tails, when in fact is Eggman who threw away his good characterization and ended as a Manipulative Bastard, thus proving Tails right?

[Nepenthe]

Some people are angry at Tails in Lost World because his portrayal has been cited as a highlight of the game and perfectly or even mostly justified in turn. I personally think it's not, and that him saying "it's fine" is not a proper apology for his own misgivings. Nor does the incident with Crabmeat Cubot somehow erase the happenings of the initial confrontation. It's still there; it just goes unanswered.

And the reason no one is angry at Eggman is two-fold. 1.) He's the villain and was predicted by almost everyone that he would do a heel-turn at some point the moment we got a plot summary, so it wasn't unexpected for the character. 2.) The story recognizes him as having done wrong and gives him proper comeuppance through a boss fight that he loses and the little joke at the end. Thus, there was retribution and ultimately catharsis for the audience in terms of getting Eggman back for his bullshit.

 

Audiences for these kinds of stories generally have a subconscious expectation that a story's universe will always reward good behavior and scold bad behavior. Heroes win, villains lose, the sun comes out shining at the end. It makes us feel good and satisfied with the story as a whole and reinforces our own moral compasses. But where Lost World ultimately fucking crashes and burns horrifically is that it doesn't adhere to this and thus it makes some people feel really frustrated and angry when bad behavior isn't fucking called out by the universe for the shit that it is.

 

Now Tails isn't Eggman. He's a good guy, so we and the writers have different expectations for his behavior. When a good guy goes off on someone else as being the problem, when in fact it's the good guy's own insecurities that are the problem, the audience should not be expected to empathize with this as being perfectly right. If anything, the audience expects the character to learn a lesson from this. Reward the good, scold the bad. But instead we're told we should empathize with this because the game ends with Sonic saying "You were right" and not receiving any equal compensation in return, because the whole point of Lost World's story was to make Sonic eat dirt the whole time, to go through some trials of fire, instead of being a "perfect hero." 

 

Even when Tails gets scolded, we get the whole "I just wanted to help" bit which is a cheap tug at the heartstrings to make the audience feel sorry that he feels cast aside. Tails' feelings matter most, because the expectation is that Tails simply cannot be entirely in the wrong in any instance in this whole goddamned fucking game. Anyway, then Tails gets kidnapped, and not just kidnapped but kidnapped as a direct result of saving Sonic. A tragic happening, or even a potential moment for reflection as he's stuck in a cell, is turned into a justified moment of heroism. He then escapes with a toothpick, tricks the villains, and turns off the machine. All heroic shit. And on top of it he gets an apology.

The whole thing just comes off as Tails being a little fucking whiny know-it-all. I don't empathize with that.

[Kuzu]

Tails' jackassery almost made him killed with the Cubot.Crabmeat. Sonic scolded him. Tails felt bad. After that incident Tails stopped be a jerkass.

 

According to an old saying: if you break a pot, saying sorry won't put its pieces back together.

 

Stopping being a jerkass and shrugging off Sonic's useless apology like it's water under the bridge it's Tails' way to say sorry.

 

 

And, why is (almost) everyone angry at Tails, when in fact is Eggman who threw away his good characterization and ended as a Manipulative Bastard, thus proving Tails right?

 

But your missing the point of what's being said, Tails may have almost gotten himself killed and Sonic may have scolded him, but these aren't moments that Tails gets karmic retribution for his earlier jackassery, but rather an attempt to get the audience to sympathize him and justify his attitude even more. Which is only reinforced by how he dejectedly says "I was just trying to help" and how the music was swelling, it was as if a neon sign was plastered around saying "FEEL SORRY FOR TAILS".

 

And...it works, it's a good way of portraying that Tails just wants to prove his worth and how he feels about being at Sonic's side, but only if you look at this scene alone and ignore everything else before and after. Prior to that scene, Tails is portrayed as a brat who seems to have entitlement issues and completely disregards Sonic's own attempts at redeeming his earlier mistake. Then at the end of the game, Tails is portrayed as completely justified in his attitude by having Sonic being the one who apologizes, for trying to fix his own mistakes!?

 

I'm sorry dude, you can try to rearrange the words all you want, but Tails comes off as a straight up prick and everyone else's character arcs are either ignored to justify his attitude by the end of it.

 

 

 

As for Eggman, the dude is the villain. Everyone saw his betrayal coming, and the story doesn't try to justify it like it does with Tails. He rightfully gets his karmic retribution when Sonic kicks his ass again. 

[TearForFear]

And on top of it he gets an apology.

 

An apology he quickly rejects.

 

I got his "it's cool" as "you don't have to apologize, man. You acted in good faith, so don't worry about it".

 

If you got it as "You're forgiven this time. But if this shit happens again I assure you I'll chop your head off, b*tch", well... I don't know what to say.

[Nepenthe]

An apology he quickly rejects.

 

I got his "it's cool" as "there's no need to apologize, man. You acted in good faith, so don't worry about it".

 

If you got it as "You're forgiven this time. But if this shit happens again I assure you I'll chop your head off, b*tch", well... I don't know what to say.

 

I don't know how you read that entire post and got that out of it. Aside from putting words in my mouth, the apology isn't even the main thing I discussed. =/

 

*sighs* But fine, I'll address this directly. One, Tails doesn't reject the apology; he just accepts it casually by saying "it's cool." That's shorthand for "I accept your apology" not "You don't need to apologize." But that's irrelevant to the fact that Tails never apologies for his original lashing out. And everything that happens to him afterwards is turned into a moment of sympathy or a moment of heroism; nothing is purely karmic retribution for him. Tails is never fully in the wrong despite having done wrong, and more often than not is put in the right regardless. This is why some people hate his portrayal in Lost World and consider it frustrating.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Nepenthe

[DarkLight]

I said this back in the Tails thread, but I honestly would've been more okay with Tails had he actually made a compelling argument against helping Eggman by making it a point that he would betray them once he got what he wanted as well as him being less snotty about making said argument. But instead, they just had to make it a matter of "You just don't trust me enough and trust Eggman more."

 

Um, Tails, you know damn well Sonic isn't too pleased with helping Eggman either, so I don't think you need to worry about Sonic ending up liking the guy.

 

Despite this being the first time the games have given us a bit of tension between Sonic and Tails, it was just handled so poorly that it doesn't really matter.

[Kuzu]

An apology he quickly rejects.

 

I got his "it's cool" as "you don't have to apologize, man. You acted in good faith, so don't worry about it".

 

If you got it as "You're forgiven this time. But if this shit happens again I assure you I'll chop your head off, b*tch", well... I don't know what to say.

 

Don't you think the story should have said it then instead of leaving to the audience to figure it out :V

 

 

 

And even so, Tails` earlier attitude is still never acknowledged in that final scene. Sonic apologizes for his behavior( Except he actually tried to fix his problem), but Tails` gets off scott-free because......?

[Vertekins]

I said this back in the Tails thread, but I honestly would've been more okay with Tails had he actually made a compelling argument against helping Eggman by making it a point that he would betray them once he got what he wanted as well as him being less snotty about making said arguement. But instead, they just had to make it a matter of "You just don't trust me enough and trust Eggman more."

 

Um, Tails, you know damn well Sonic isn't too pleased with helping Eggman either, so I don't think you need to worry about Sonic ending up liking the guy.

 

Despite this being the first time the games have given us a bit of tension between Sonic and Tails, it was just handled so poorly that it doesn't really matter.

 

In addition, it does kinda reflect badly on Sonic how he is never really shown as being skeptical of Eggman when we've seen that he doesn't trust the man as far as he can throw him. It reminds me somewhat of Chronicles. Specifically when they trounce-off into another dimension and trust Eggman enough to not do anything whilst they're gone.