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"Sonic Dissected" Dissected: (LEGO) Sonic Dimensions As You Truly Imagined It

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18 minutes ago, TheHeatSeeker0 said:

It's them doing this and not handling the franchise right. It's kinda like how people have pointed out that Nintendo's Amiibos are selling more then their games. Not saying that myself, but what I've seen others talk about.

Those people really need a reality check.

Sonic has always had his image licensed out for products and it's not like Sega themselves stops everything to make them.

So I really don't get why some people are so upset over face cream and acting like Sega shouldn't be doing stuff like this at all when it's such a non issue.

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5 minutes ago, Detective Hogfather said:

Sonic has always had his image licensed out for products and it's not like Sega themselves stops everything to make them.

Yeah, I just want to take a second to remind you that I said this already, and you're just repeating it back to me. Trust me when I say nobody is mad over face cream alone, lol.

Another thing just to clarify, but didn't only do this when Sonic was, you know, a healthier franchise? Sure there's the occasional shirt, but not as far as they have taken it for the past few months, and kinda bad timing as well, since, you know the main product isn't selling? The games? Yeah.

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Just now, Detective Hogfather said:

Those people really need a reality check.

Sonic has always had his image licensed out for products and it's not like Sega themselves stops everything to make them.

So I really don't get why some people are so upset over face cream and acting like Sega shouldn't be doing stuff like this at all when it's such a non issue.

IMO Sega should focus on specific merchandise aimed at promoting its upcoming game (and the Boom universe, since Boom Sonic's been hinted to appear in it). It would make more sense because it would show the company is engaged with this new phase of Sonic. So much that it's commiting its resources to a massive marketing campaign a few months prior to its release. That in itself would show potential buyers that Sega is serious about the future of Sonic and believes in the potential of this game. 

Slapping Sonic's face in non-related products just dillutes his image. Sega is supposed to be fully invested in the upcoming releases (the game plus Sonic Boom 2nd Season). If anything, the face cream could've come at a later date, after the 25th Anniversary game was released. There could be tons of products released by then, not just face cream. That's how companies do it. Sega letting Sonic's image be used in a random product just like that, in a cheap marketing campaign, I don't know. To me, as a player and a consumer, that's a sign of lack of interest in investing in their own mascot.

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Sonic back in the day was fresh, new and considered cool. So the amounts of merchandise back then was within reason. I cant say that about the sonic of today whose games are openly mocked. Sonic may be an icon, but he is also a product. If the product isnt respected then merchandise loose its worth. As a gamer and a fan of sonic from that perspective, i cant say i care about the merchandise when the actual franchise is in a bad state. Same with the people who dislikes amiibos. They dont like the fact that these things overshadows the actual games.

 

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3 minutes ago, Stardust said:

IMO Sega should focus on specific merchandise aimed at promoting its upcoming game (and the Boom universe, since Boom Sonic's been hinted to appear in it). It would make more sense because it would show the company is engaged with this new phase of Sonic. So much that it's commiting its resources to a massive marketing campaign a few months prior to its release. That in itself would show potential buyers that Sega is serious about the future of Sonic and believes in the potential of this game.

You're actually right, Sega could do that.... If Boom didn't, you know, totally fail as a game and medium to a beloved franchise. They would be better off engaging with the archie comics at this point, at least it's handled better.

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I just think some of you are complaining for the sake of complaining for some reason.

It's such a non issue and some of the charges being thrown are ludicrous with utterly nothing to back it up.

The way some are talking there has to be some kind of department or measurement which says "yes. We can now put Sonic's face on this mug because according to these people Sonic is cool again."

But if I'm wrong. Go ahead and back up these claims/charges.

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Well,i expected Sega to be quicker in giving us news about a game since it is the anniversary. But that is remarkebly put on a close lid. to the point where you might even question if a game is actualy comming. But at least we have glorious merchandise.

5 minutes ago, Detective Hogfather said:

I just think some of you are complaining for the sake of complaining for some reason.

It's such a non issue and some of the charges being thrown are ludicrous with utterly nothing to back it up.

The way some are talking there has to be some kind of department or measurement which says "yes. We can now put Sonic's face on this mug because according to these people Sonic is cool again."

But if I'm wrong. Go ahead and back up these claims/charges.

There is no such proof which you are aware of, just as there is no proof of the opposite. I will kindly ask you to stop demanding proof when you cant prove the exact opposite either. These are concerns and speculations. Not academic paper reports.

some people simply dont like the amounts of merchandise in sonics current condition. You are not one of them, simple as that.

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11 minutes ago, PandoloFox said:

There is no such proof which you are aware of, just as there is no proof of the opposite. I will kindly ask you to stop demanding proof when you cant prove the exact opposite either. These are concerns and speculations. Not academic paper reports.

Oh look this again.

How many times are you going to make claims and then when asked to actually back it up pull the "Well you can't prove the opposite either" card? That isn't how discussion works.

I'm not going to stop asking for proof to statements because guess what, that's how discussion works, if you make a statement which someone wants to see evidence of backing up, you'd better have some kind of argument or some kind of evidence or study to back it up. That way you can actuall, you know, debate the evidence an discuss the argument. If you're going to claim it dilutes or somehow harms the franchise, back it up with something. Otherwise you're just catastrophising, fear-mongering or whatever else you want to call it.

 

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3 minutes ago, Detective Hogfather said:

Oh look this again.

How many times are you going to make claims and then when asked to actually back it up pull the "Well you can't prove the opposite either" card? That isn't how discussion works.

Just back it up already. If you're going to claim it dilutes or somehow harms the franchise, back it up with something. Otherwise you're just catastrophising, fear-mongering or whatever else you want to call it.

 

There are no claims, there are "concerns". nobody said, "Its a fact that this kind of merchandise is not appropriate in sonics current condition". nor did anyone imply it either. Every word uttered isnt meant to prove to people that they are wrong.

And even at that its a logical fallacy to think that if there is no proof then its automaticaly false.

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1 minute ago, Detective Hogfather said:

Oh look this again.

How many times are you going to make claims and then when asked to actually back it up pull the "Well you can't prove the opposite either" card? That isn't how discussion works.

Just back it up already. If you're going to claim it dilutes or somehow harms the franchise, back it up with something. Otherwise you're just catastrophising, fear-mongering or whatever else you want to call it.

 

Here's he thing man, the claim that Sonic latest image isn't all that good is backed up by how the majority of then internet still mocks him on a daily basis, and the fact that both Lost World and Boom bombed one after the other. You just have top accept that nobody was bashing the merchandise, but Sega's poor choice of doing this stuff when the current image of Sonic isn't doing it for people anymore, but just select groups of them on the internet.

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No one here is making assertions with which require proof. People are talking about the viability of Sonic doing extended marketing on unrelated products while the franchise is in an ambiguous state of existence. You can't inherently "prove" either viewpoint as objectively correct, so asking people for proof to support their feeling that it's a bad idea is coming off as browbeating. You can ask for clarification into someone's point of view or even proof for specific assertions or claim that help support their feeling (ex. "You say this marketing effort didn't do well. Do you have proof of that?"). But there's literally no fucking way to prove that this is a bad thing, just like there's no way to prove that this is a good thing. So stahp.

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Sigh, this is going nowhere.
This discussion is meaningless because we're operating on different logic levels.
This is human psychology versus technical workings of companies.

Sega's a company that sells merchandise to celebrate the occasion, earn side cash, strengthen the brand recognition to the outside public.
Ok, cool.

A large group of fans are super anxious to get information about the new game for several reasons, mostly reasons of concern and fear, so all this celebrating, undeserved (from their perspective) positivity and fake announcements is driving them up the wall. So now they start to lash out to every minor detail.
It's human fear. human paranoia. There's no evidence. There's no facts. There's no logic. It's one big miserable situation that's driving people to act immature.
So no, I'm not happy that Era wrote that article. Or anyone else panicking about it. Or my own initial bafflement. But there's little I can do about it, other then create my own set of video's to try and translate our fears into more cohesive and constructive thoughts.


Hogfather, you're absolutely right. Sega has every right to do what they please, that's how companies work, it's their right, it's their money. Complaining and getting upset is silly. I, and many others don't have the knowledge whether their actions will lead to success or not, and it's not our place to call them out.


But Hogfather, I'm seriously confused in what you were trying to do?
Do you think this stoic demanding for evidence or shoving the truth in people's faces will make them calm down and suddenly respect Sega? I fear you may be achieving the opposite effect and feeding our paranoia even more.
Now, take your original message toward me for example.
I couldn't help but notice that you didn't give me any task or point in your original comment.

You asked me to explain, but you showed no interest in my explanation, other then an excuse to pick it apart.
But worse, I didn't see any constructive reason for you to do so.
Do you want me to get Era to remove that message?
That's what I'm assuming? That would be at least constructive.
"Roger, SA3's latest message is spreading misinformation and fear. I want you to try and get him to fix it up."
Something like that. Hey, Hogfather is concerned about the community and wants things fixed up. Right you are sir, I'll try!
That's something I can respect and will immediately try to do.
Not that it matters, because Era foolishly wrote a weird open letter that caused a brand new civil war on SA3.
I doubt anyone notices or cares about that previous message anymore. ANYWAY.

But you didn't. Instead, it came across like you're here to pick a fight.
"Hey, you and Era said a stupid thing, explain? Haha, you're wrong."
Not your intention perhaps, but the lack of humanity in your writing, your inability to genuinely try to understand your opponents and having no other reaction to my answers other then just picking out individual details you disagree on and smashing that into the ground makes this whole discussion come across as petty.
Which could motivate me to dismiss your point of view entirely because I felt threatened, regardless if they were true. That's how humans work sometimes.
Fortunately, I did not.

Look, I respect you on a lot of levels.
I loved your articles on Rise of Lyric's development struggles. You know where to dig for info and take effort to make sure it's as close to the truth as you're able to dig.
You take information Really seriously.
Great. And while you never say it out loud, I'm assuming you're confronting people like me and Era to make sure there's no unnecessary hate mongering and nastiness happening. To keep the information flow clean. Very noble goal.

But, I'm concerned your approach may be doing you more harm then good. We're dealing with mentally exhausted people here. This Sonic ride has been crazy. Just shoving "the truth" in people's faces and acting like a robot is not helping. I notice it makes a lot of people irritated.
This is a lesson the SA3 people also need to learn and I've been trying to hammer that in their heads too.

Many people are petty. I can be extremely petty and nasty myself. But man, I expected more from you. I'm really dissappointed.
If you're really concerned about hate mongers and people spreading misinformation, I think it will really help if you put a little more humanity and willingness to meet mid-way in the discussion. This robotic "You're wrong, show me evidence. Haha, your emotions are illogical and incorrect." way of talking, ESPECIALLY when we're talking about something as personal, complex and impossible to prove like human emotions, may only be turning people away from you, not listen to reason.

Sory for the long and intrusive message, but this IS the Dissected discussion after all....

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Roger's latest dissected video has come out, and it's in regard to Sonic's identity crisis on all fundamental levels:

 

It's hard not to agree with what he says, but I'll admit I never really considered just how screwy Sonic's identity is not just in the games, but also in the way he is marketed and portrayed in the media. Master of the mixed message, Sonic is.

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"[Sonic's] identity is not what it is, only what it isn't"

That is actually an amazingly accurate thesis on Sonic's current state and not a point I myself have ever heard presented yet. The rest of Rogers analysis about Sonic's identity crisis is also very solid and a greater discussion point. It reminds me of another particular case (which I will refrain from specifying) that I've grown to believe suffers from the same dilemma of people focusing on solving the superficial problems but failing to recognize and address the core problems that make up the bigger picture.

This is what my English teacher would call serendipity.

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He's spot on the point too, it feels like everybody that works on Sonic just does there own thing. This is even in the games themselves, the actual gameplay is divorced from the level design or the story or the art direction. There's absolutely no cohesion with anything Sonic, aside from maybe the Archie comics.

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Oh hey, this dead topic of mine's is getting bumped.

Well with Fire & Ice out and people already posted all the cutscenes in the game, time to see @Roger_van_der_weide's predictions for the game hold up.

If you need to refresh on what he said, here's the video in question.

Before I go into this, let's look at what we now know about Fire & Ice's story. First, the tone for Fire & Ice is very much in-tone with the show, doesn't attempt to go for a big epic adventure but rather Sonic and friends are aware of Eggman's plot, tries to stop D-Fekt and have some silly hijinx. Pretty much an adventure story with a comedic focus. Also we are now aware that Pontac, Graff and Tin Guerrero (how come we always forget this guy?) got some assistance with the people behind the show, specifically; Bill Freiberger, Alan Denton and Greg Hahn.

So first thing is Roger guessed that Fire & Ice will somehow incorporate mind control in the game.

Nope, no mind control whatsoever. 

Point 1 for F&I

Second thing is how Amy will either be the female equivalent of Sonic or an overbearing, mother-like character.

But when I look through Fire & Ice cutscenes, she was just fine. Had her badass moments and she had chill moments, the characters in the game felt very much in-tone with the show's portrayal of them. So it doesn't feel like Pontac and Graff trying to imitate the style, either Freiberger and Hahnton did those lines or Pontac/Graff watched the show and picked up their mannerisms quite well. Either way, I'd say it's a plus if the game is going to be more like the show especially since Freiberger has mentioned that Fire & Ice does take place somewhere in Season 2. Oh yeah, none of the side characters of the show appear in the game outside of the concept art for the show.

As for the discussion of character development, it's actually D-Fekt that I felt got the most character development. Since people who watched the show would get a feel for what the main cast are like, I see P&G&G having no reason to add new character traits to the cast. Since D-Fekt is the new guy (or bot in this case), it would make sense to develop him a bit. And quite frankly, D-Fekt is adorable and I would LOVE to buy D-Fekt figurines if TOMY ever made some. First, he was called RagnaBot to grab Ragnium for Eggman but it turns out he can grab everything except Ragnium. Eggman is violently disappointed in him and mocks him by naming him "D-Fekt" and treats him like garbage but yet the ol' bot still wants to gain his master's love and respect and only until near the end, where D-Fekt goes against him and has enough of Eggman's abuse. I might be overselling it a bit here but D-Fekt is a nice character and I hope to see him in some episodes of Season 2.

Since Roger overshot his prediction on Amy but did accurately predicted that D-Fekt will be the character to get the character development. It cancels each other out.

Roger's next prediction is that Shadow and Metal will appear in the story.

Outside of the concept art of Metal Sonic, neither of the two appears at all in the game. Which I'd say is a surprisingly good move since it seems like Sanzaru heard about the backlash of how forced the two appeared in the previous Boom games. He also predicted that there'll a joke on D-Fekt's name, outside of the reason why Eggman gave him that name; no mention of it whatsoever. So I guess that's another plus point to the game, I guess?

2 points to F&I

Second, me predicted that the climax for Fire & Ice will be epic.... which it isn't because it's Sonic Boom. I mean, the climax for the game wasn't tense or anyhting; it was just hey, Sticks' favorite bot is pretty mad and it's up to Sonic and her to calm him down. Also to brin back the point about jokes on D-Fekt, it's that he's small and when isn't using his item-magnetizing powers, he's not doing a whole lot and fails at preventing Sonic and crew at stopping the fissures. I guess. But that's just his cynical part of his head thinking things up, he actually predicts it will go down like Lost World, which doesn't either really. Eggman doesn't actively team up with Sonic in the game, he asks Sonic and friends to stop D-Fekt, nothing more or less. 

1 point for F&I(?)


Another prediction is that the game will have a lot of dark humor, it doesn't. He also predicts that the D-Fekt betrayal will happen sooner, making the bot racing thing pointless. But that doesn't happen either though outside of the first cutscene that reveals Eggman's purpose for mining the Ragnium, the story doesn't really go further into the bot racing either and is more about where Eggman is getting the Ragnium and following D-Fekt. So F&I gets a point for not doing the D-Fekt betrayal early but Roger technically gets a point for the bot-racing plot point being irrelevant for most of the story. But since you'll always encounter a Bot Racing stage in the game, the game follows up on that plot point so I guess Sanzaru covered that up just fine. So actually F&I gets another two points.

And the last prediction is that the Fire and Ice powers will be earned without explanation except that it does provide an explanation. The opening cutscene explains that the radiation of the Ragnium energy blast caused Sonic and Amy's communicators to use those powers and Tails' techy know-how to  give everyone the ability as well. I guess the only self-awareness the game ever goes is that it's a silly story that has silly explanations for things. So yeah 1 final point for F&I.

So looking at it so far, that's like 8 or so points for Fire and Ice while Roger does get like 1 point.

I guess Roger's prediction are for the most part, false. I guess it doesn't help that Roger was very cynical throughout the video and since I don't want to sound like a salty asshole this time around, I probably just ignored some parts since I just don't agree with them.

But suffice to say, this is technically Pontac/Graff's best work in the series and it's pretty on-par with a Sonic Boom episode, which is a pretty good thing if the focus of the story was to make sure it's like an episode of the show.

So yeah, can't to hear what ol' Roger has to say about all this.

Now back to this topic being dead!

 

 

 

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I guess the assistance with Freiberger and crew helped open Pontaff's eyes on the writing side of things so if they're confirmed to writing Project 2017, they're probably do a better job at telling a more serious story than what they did for Lost World.

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Jup, pretty well written this time.
They got me.

Didn't help that many of my predictions were about me expecting a way bigger story then we got.
I expected a lot of big story elements on a collapsing pile, we got a restrained small tight little ditty.

Not sure if I have confidence in Pontaff or Freiberger pulling off a big serious story tough, but at least they can do a solid light hearted tale.

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4 minutes ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Jup, pretty well written this time.
They got me.

Didn't help that many of my predictions were about me expecting a way bigger story then we got.
I expected a lot of big story elements on a collapsing pile, we got a restrained small tight little ditty.

Not sure if I have confidence in Pontaff or Freiberger pulling off a big serious story tough, but at least they can do a solid light hearted tale.

Well I'd say Pontaff could do a serious story well enough since Lost World was more serious than their previous work in the series. It wasn't a well-made story but the potential is there.

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Golly gee, another revival this it's all about that LEGO Sunky son! (Also just went through this entire topic and hoo boy, what a trainwreck it has been since the beginning)

There is a video about Roger and Luke's experience with the LEGO games franchise here but I ain't talking about it right now.

They first discuss how weird the Classic-era music is but they realized that it's due to copyright reasons and Traveler's Tales didn't want to deal with that kind of mess. They also complimented the artstyle and saying how it's what Lost World should've looked like, personally I don't see it much different as from Generations so meh. They also liked how LEGO Sonic is the official attempt at putting Sonic in an open-world and how fun it is.

But Dissected is all about that story and characters son!

They first praise how Dimensions' climax is actually exciting compared to recent Sonic games. From what I saw it was pretty neat to see Sonic and Tails fly go to the Death Egg with the Death Egg shooting at them, Sonic fighting the Death Egg Robot (for the fourth time) and fighting Chaos and all that neat stuff. It was pretty cool so I can agree with that.

They then go into detail how the characters are like in Dimensions.

Since most of the lines Sonic says is from the Adventure era, Sonic is more like his Adventure portrayal which they appreciate.

Tails, in the story he doesn't do much about of being "Mr. Exposition" but in the Adventure World, they praise Colleen's voicework for pulling off the mix of Modern Tails' cocky showoff brainsmartness and the Adventures' more cute and innocence without sounding off-putting.

Amy, they claim that in Dimensions she has yet a new personality but I argue it's more of her Adventure portrayal about how she wants to fend for herself and make Sonic respect her and stuff and it feels like the next step towards that character arc, trying to find ways to show that she can handle on her own and want to join on Sonic's adventures as well by defeating a bunch of Egg Pawns that are harassing some of the Animal Friends. Granted, Cindy sounds a bit more intense and nutty in some of the lines so meh.

Big is Big and that's great! Though it would be nice if the acknowledge how it's not Kyle Hebert that's voicing him but rather his Sonic X voice actor but eh, guess they don't care because of how Big's been everywhere thanks to Big's Big Fishing Adventure 3 (btw @Roger_van_der_weide can we expect a BBFA3 Dissected when it comes out later this month and see if Skyler and his team are telling the truth about how the game is a love letter to Adventure?)

Eggman seems to be a mix of his more intense but goofy personailty from the Adventures while also having some of his Modern elements added in, like being offended that Orbot unfriended him and that kind of stuff, I like it.

They also acknowledge how the first confrontation between Sonic and Eggman is one of the best because of how much energy it has but then bash on how the Emerald Coast boss banter was atrocious, being worse than Pontaff. (Though gotta give credit to that Fatty Lobotnik mention since that was one of the names for Eggman at first).

Shadow is similar to how I see Amy, branching off his Adventure portrayal by finding things to help bring hope to humanity. And while it might be silly to connect Shadow with flower arrangements, Roger and Luke appreciated that even if he's doing something that silly he would still put his best effort into it. Though they don't like how Shadow keeps on saying "ultimate" but I find it funny to me, meh comedy is subjective anyway.

They also appreciate how that joke of Knuckles throwing Shadow's gun and it was more a visual gag rather than a verbal one, which is nice.

But they absolutely can't stand Knuckles in Dimensions.

"He's still the braindead useless moron he is from Sonic Boom"

As someone who absolutely loves Boom Knuckles, I take major offense to that. I'm not going on a rant but Luke, no.

Knuckles mentioned someone taking the ME but they mention as soon as it's stolen, Knuckles would normally go after the ME right away but in Dimensions, he decides to vent it on punching a bunch of robots. Roger goes into why he hates Modern Knuckles is how narcissistic he is when you think about that's like the opposite of what Knuckles should be. Roger describes how to parody Knuckles right is to make fight literall anyone to get the ME back.

When I think about it, LEGO Sonic is pretty much a mix of Generations and Rise of Lyric so yeah. Oh yeah, I guess I should mention that despite their critiques, they do like the Level Pack so yeah. 

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I'll only talk about Big's big fishing adventure 3 if I'm actually impressed and happy about it so I can praise it.
I don't feel like complaining about a fun fanproject people made for their own amusement.

Well, unless I make a full video about all kinds of fan projects and games and make BBFA3 just part of it.

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Hmm, it would neat to see you discuss about Sonic fangames and see how some of those elements can easily be incorporated into the main games (I suspect Utopia will be a major focus on that) but fair enough point, I shall wait for the next Dissected patiently.

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