I think it's time for Shadow the Hedgehog 2

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sonic has an identity crisis with games such as Unleashed throwing in speedy gameplay and God of War brawling, Colors focusing mostly on 2D instead of trying to improve it's 3D controls, and Lost World for throwing that formula away in favor of a new formula. This goes all the way back to the Adventures, actually, where you have speedy gameplay of Sonic, the treasure hunting of Knuckles, and mech stages like that in SA2, and then comes ShTH with it's gunplay, and Sonic 06 bringing in Telekinesis for puzzle elements.

 

In short, all of these things don't have much focus over what Sonic wants to be, and Sonic Boom is another example of this by being a whole new sub-series - which isn't actually a bad thing in this case as it isn't replacing anything, but the same points still apply.

 

As for a Shadow sequel being good for having all their "dark energy" (what?) and new ideas there? That's a bad idea. For one, the first ShTH obviously ruined any hope of that, and even then making a sequel won't do anything good and instead remind people of how bad the first one did right from the get go. And that's not getting into the concepts you're implying, because all that "dark energy" (what the heck is that anyway) and new ideas mean nothing if it doesn't have any direction and implementation to it, nor does it benefit the game if this stuff isn't well received upon playing it, making the sequel even more pointless to make if not messing things up further by making it that much more riskier to even try to bring in new ideas. If they want to bring new ideas, they don't exactly need a sequel to a spin-off in order to do it (especially a game as poorly recieved as ShTH). They should instead research how to implement their ideas so it works with the game they're making.

[Enesephus]

"Dark energy" meant "any dark and edgy crap they felt like doing." I just didn't feel like typing that.

 

And you seem to saying Sonic has an identity crisis because of the different gameplay styles, but I always just saw it as variety to make the game more interesting, since the core gameplay was always the same during the Adventure and Boost eras.

[Blacklightning]

The whole point of my post was that a Shadow sequel wouldn't be a Sonic game, and just it's own thing. Maybe I just don't fully understand the concept of a spin-off. I just thought I'd be good for Sega to put all their "dark energy" and new ideas (like the parkour) there rather than a real Sonic game.

Then they should save that crap for a seperate bloody IP rather than trying to tack the Sonic license onto it. That's like the first fucking rule of planning for spinoffs and reboots - you really have to question why the existing franchise needs concepts so foreign to it to begin with (besides of course, the ability to sell off brand name alone even if it means simultaneously damaging said brand), otherwise you're just aliening your existing fans and audience on the uncertain promise of trying to cater to a completely different one - and as games like DmC have proven, potentially even earning the ire of both.

 

And you're saying Sega should just stop farting around and make a Sonic game, which seems to imply that you didn't care for Lost World (correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't see any other reason you'd feel Sonic's in an "identity crisis"). If you don't like it, that's fine, but I really enjoyed the game, and I don't have any real problems with Sega trying something new again. But, you know, with Sonic Boom coming out soon, maybe Sega will have Sonic Team stick to one thing rather than continue on "scattering their focus." That, or we'll get better consistency with the Boom games.

Whether or not I like it personally is irrelevant (for the record I don't actually mind it once the learning curve isn't interfering). Literally every time a new Sonic game is made, every time it's an occasion where they try to reinvent a wheel that was already functioning just fine, and as a result they all too frequently throw away all of the genuine progress that the last game had made over the game before that. A good sequel (or successive entry in the franchise period, if you choose to be fucking pedantic about it) irons out the flaws of its ancestors and builds apon what originally made them great to start with.

 

Can you actually name the last time that has even happened? Shit just doesn't improve in this franchise anymore - it simply changes hands. We've gone from boostspam to microscopic slippery platforms to spindash-spam, and Lost World has basically thrown the entire formula on its head for no other obvious reason besides the fact that it can. This isn't a quality issue per se, this is just a dire need to pick one fucking approach and stick with it - if for no other reason than we won't have to literally debate the definition of a Sonic game to even look at them objectively anymore.

 

 

And you seem to saying Sonic has an identity crisis because of the different gameplay styles, but I always just saw it as variety to make the game more interesting, since the core gameplay was always the same during the Adventure and Boost eras.

 

 

 

Your honour, what the witness has just stated directly contradicts the evidence in the court record!

 

 

The most glaring example here is the beginning of the boost trilogy, Sonic Unleashed. As I'm sure many members of this jury are aware, at least half of the game is spent playing in a separate form, in which moving at speed is impossible, jump height is greatly reduced and doesn't cause damage, and the actual method of progressing consists of punching and clawing enemies in your way. Between this and the existing boost gameplay, they aren't even in the same genre!

 

 

One would think this is an isolated incident, but that isn't the case either. In fact, this has been an issue almost as long as the franchise has had three dimensions! Even as early as SA1, Sonic Team has seen fit to include fishing of all things as a standard goal of the game! Between SA2's mechs, Heroes's teamwork mechanic, ShTH's boot-strapped gunplay, '06's... umm, '06's...

 

 

...well, the less said of that, the better, I suppose.

 

 

All the same! For as long as there has been a separate style in the game distinct enough to call its own, it has been too distinct to link to the core gameplay mechanics established by the main protagonist to be anything but only the barest bit related! Which leaves just one conclusion - these alternate styles and what you call "core gameplay"...

 

 

...are not, in fact, the same gameplay!

 

It was a predictable response, I was bored and in a PW mood. Sue me.

[Enesephus]

Whatever, I'm done trying to explain myself, since it's clear I'm only doing myself deeper. I'll show myself out.

[Dr. Mechano]

Ah, Shadow the Hedgehog. A.K.A., The Game That Killed Eggman. Pah. I think it goes without saying that I don't think we need a sequel to this game.

 

But there's far more wrong with this game than cheap shock deaths of beloved characters. Gameplay-wise, Shadow controls horribly, the guns are sloppily implemented, and the missions (particularly the "collect/destroy everything in the stage" variety) drag on and on. Second only to 2K6, it was the worst implementation of 3D Sonic gameplay in the entire franchise.

 

And that's to say nothing of the absurd, inconsistent wreck of a story. Between its ridiculous retcons, dreadful dialogue, and outright self-contradictions ("I just helped Eggman in this mission, and now he's surprised I'm even here, and is also fighting me"), Shadow's plot is almost a self-parody. This doesn't even account for the awkward, forced tone of the game - with Shadow grimly forcing out mild curses like a 12-year old learning to swear for the first time, and a narrative that tries way too hard to sell us on the idea that Shadow is a cooler, edgier, hipper version of Sonic.

 

About the only plus I can give this game is that some musical gems stand out from its otherwise-forgettable soundtrack. But a couple of catchy tunes do not a good game make.

 

Also, the game killed Eggman.

[Wittymations]

I was more annoyed that you couldn't side with Eggman rather than shock-deaths. I mean, it's safe to assume that Shadow also killed Sonic and Black Doom in their endings off-screen, but at least those you could ally with one or the other. But Eggman? For some reason, nope.

[ravingCANVAS]

Honestly, I didn't think Shadow the Hedgehog was THAT bad, but I don't know if another sequel's a good idea or not, seeing how hated it is...

[Jet Prower]

I dunno if the game could be made or not, but the archie comics pretty much just recently did their almost a what-if with a Shadow 2 and it wasn't that bad to be honest. Though to be honest, the comics usually are able to handle and flesh out the characters a lot better than the video games, so their scenarios are often believable and fit the characters without just throwing new random things into place. That is the main reason I often prefer the comics to the games is that the stories were often a lot better than the minimalistic stories of some of the games.

 

Sure, just like with any concept, I believe Shadow 2 could work, but at the same time, it is more so a matter of is it worth trying to do so with how the critics are nothing but whiners these days and see any character other than Sonic and Eggman as idiots that need to be shot in an alley. You could always easily enough stick a Shadow 2 scenario into another game and it sort of blend in with the main story of that game without it even having to be it's own game on its own.

 

As much as I didn't mind Shadow the Hedgehog myself, the name itself is simply what is not liked as much now. You can always improve gameplay and everything else along with it to make it a very enjoyable game, but sticking the name Shadow the Hedgehog on it will get immediately points taken away from so many people just because of the association with it. As I said, either sort of mesh the story you would use for it in with another game or you have sort of a new game name that isn't Shadow the Hedgehog.

[Tsukine]

I'm gonna agree with ChaosSupremeSonic on this one, the adventure style of putting various characters as playable works better from what I can see. You might basicaly get the same story but you're seeing it from a diferent point of view, the point of view of the character you're playing as and I think that gives you enough insight of how the character works, think, its priorities and so on, they have their own arc and role in the story and you're not missing any bit of it, you see it from all the possible angles.

I think that works better than having a game done especially for that character only, unless there's some super important and amazing stuff that requires so, which I doubt.

 

And trying to make spin-off with stories that follow the flow and conect with previous games or so at this point... aahh..

The whole story in the Sonic games (if there's any) is as scatered as it is, some games have conections, references and seem to follow a flow and work as sequels/undergoing story, but others seem like theyre their own continuity (think thats the word) and dont fit anywhere on the series almost, leading us to the beloved plotholes and stories/events not making any sense. coughblazecough

[Rad Dudesman]

No. This series doesn't need to go back to being the laughingstock of the video game industry.

[Zavok the SpinningSilver]

...

 

You know, there are a few ways I could respond to this.

 

On the one hand, I disagree. I don't think it's time for a sequel to Shadow the Hedgehog. The game's not even 10 years old, and I don't think the series will be ready for a game like that in a long, LONG time. I mean, storywise, there isn;t much you can work with if making a direct sequel. Those dreadfully out of place aliens are gone. Kaput. Out of here. We know about Shadow's past, and frankly, a lot of people don't really care about his origins anymore. He already left his past behind him, so should we. You could go the "Shadow Fall" route like Sonic Universe did if you really like the Black Arms aspect, but still...

 

Outside of that, the gameplay mechanics aren't much to work with either. Picking your path is great for a non canon RPG or an original universe or something like that, but the nature of a Shadow the Hedgehog game (based on what the original offered anyway) is just Shadow's experiences in Sonic's world. If Sonic is doing A, then Shadow  and  / or Team Dark are off doing B or C. It's all within Sonic's world. Picking a path wouldn't matter because only one True Ending would be canon. While Shadow works for GUN and would probably be a very pragmatic fighter, letting Shadow pack heat isn't something that really works for his character. And even though I would strongly advocate for a Sonic game to have some darker elements from time to time, they would have to actually work. Being edgy is one thing, but something like this:

 

 

That's just silly.

 

In any case, I don't completely object to the idea of a spinoff series that has to do with other characters. I wouldn't mind if Shadow got some sort of mini series of games that dealt with an adventure of his own. You could show off the fact that there is more to Sonic's world than just the Main Trio, Amy, and Eggman. Cameos are cool, but there's so much more you could show off. You could make the tone a bit darker to suit the character, but not in a way that makes it too absurd. Raising stakes, tension, all of that could drive a completely original plot for Shadow. Give him his own enemies to face.

 

Gameplay wise? Do what Nintendo did with Wario and give Shadow a different playstyle. A complaint about the original game was that it didn't feel like a spin off, just like a bad Sonic game with a different character. I don't think the gun gameplay is immediately doomed from the start, as plenty of other franchises could pull it off. Some people here I've seen refer to Jak and Daxter, but this franchise is the one that immediately comes to mind for me:

 

 

Aww yeah, baby.

 

I could try to brainstorm more ideas for this sort of thing, but my point is this:

 

Could a Shadow the Hedgehog 2 work IMO? Yes and no. There are ways to improve the formula here. It's not all doomed from the get go, and should Sonic Team actually become interested in other characters enough to grant a spinoff title, I'm sure they could put together something good. However, right now, I think they are neither ready to do so, nor do we really need a "Shadow the Hedgehog 2" at the moment.

 

...whew. Typing thoughts out like this so late really drains a lot out of you.

[TheMessiah999]

A Shadow the hedgehog 2 would be nice. I love the gameplay its pretty smooth to be honest i had no real problems with it. Anyway the whole "guns" thing needs to stop. Its not like Sonic is using a gun guys its Shadow who's different then Sonic. Yeah sure he has chaos powers but Shadow would not waste his time with humans or pointless aliens not worth his power he'd rather use a gun or weapon to make quick work of them. Plus the guns ARE optional right? So stop worrying about it. Darker? Yes we need more darker Sonic games anyway however still keeping the lighthearted elements there as well just more balance needs to be put in.

 

It can work we need to see more Sonic characters besides Sonic get the spotlight. Another Knuckles game hell maybe even another Tails game could be fun. Each character should get an equal amount of spotlight and get an equal amount of roles. (Not related to the topic but just wanna make that clear)

...

 

You know, there are a few ways I could respond to this.

 

On the one hand, I disagree. I don't think it's time for a sequel to Shadow the Hedgehog. The game's not even 10 years old, and I don't think the series will be ready for a game like that in a long, LONG time. I mean, storywise, there isn;t much you can work with if making a direct sequel. Those dreadfully out of place aliens are gone. Kaput. Out of here. We know about Shadow's past, and frankly, a lot of people don't really care about his origins anymore. He already left his past behind him, so should we. You could go the "Shadow Fall" route like Sonic Universe did if you really like the Black Arms aspect, but still...

 

Outside of that, the gameplay mechanics aren't much to work with either. Picking your path is great for a non canon RPG or an original universe or something like that, but the nature of a Shadow the Hedgehog game (based on what the original offered anyway) is just Shadow's experiences in Sonic's world. If Sonic is doing A, then Shadow  and  / or Team Dark are off doing B or C. It's all within Sonic's world. Picking a path wouldn't matter because only one True Ending would be canon. While Shadow works for GUN and would probably be a very pragmatic fighter, letting Shadow pack heat isn't something that really works for his character. And even though I would strongly advocate for a Sonic game to have some darker elements from time to time, they would have to actually work. Being edgy is one thing, but something like this:

 

 

That's just silly.

 

In any case, I don't completely object to the idea of a spinoff series that has to do with other characters. I wouldn't mind if Shadow got some sort of mini series of games that dealt with an adventure of his own. You could show off the fact that there is more to Sonic's world than just the Main Trio, Amy, and Eggman. Cameos are cool, but there's so much more you could show off. You could make the tone a bit darker to suit the character, but not in a way that makes it too absurd. Raising stakes, tension, all of that could drive a completely original plot for Shadow. Give him his own enemies to face.

 

Gameplay wise? Do what Nintendo did with Wario and give Shadow a different playstyle. A complaint about the original game was that it didn't feel like a spin off, just like a bad Sonic game with a different character. I don't think the gun gameplay is immediately doomed from the start, as plenty of other franchises could pull it off. Some people here I've seen refer to Jak and Daxter, but this franchise is the one that immediately comes to mind for me:

 

 

Aww yeah, baby.

 

I could try to brainstorm more ideas for this sort of thing, but my point is this:

 

Could a Shadow the Hedgehog 2 work IMO? Yes and no. There are ways to improve the formula here. It's not all doomed from the get go, and should Sonic Team actually become interested in other characters enough to grant a spinoff title, I'm sure they could put together something good. However, right now, I think they are neither ready to do so, nor do we really need a "Shadow the Hedgehog 2" at the moment.

 

...whew. Typing thoughts out like this so late really drains a lot out of you.

I agree with this honestly....

[Wittymations]

We know it's Shadow, but remember -- Shadow was brought into the series as a darker Sonic. So, he still represents Sonic, but one that's more serious.

 

The Shadow of SA2 is very different from the Shadow of his own game. I could not see Shadow of SA2 using a gun because that Shadow strikes me as the type of guy who sees guns as a waste of time. He's more powerful than those tools. He doesn't need them. Now, he's completely fine with the Eclipse Cannon because that weapon is more powerful than he is.

 

That Shadow of ShTH is different. He seems like a shell of who the Shadow of SA2 was and was lost in direction.

 

Either case, both Shadow still do represent Sonic. They have the same design, abilities, etc. And when you play them, you WILL see him as Sonic, even if it's subconscious.

 

Honestly, you'd be faster to pull off Omega in this game than Shadow (even then, I wouldn't recommend it.)

[S0NIC-Keyblade 007]

I would love to see Shadow have his own sub-series. I was sad to hear that any hope this was shot down after Shadow's game received such low ratings. But Shadow's one of my favorite characters so I would love Sonic Team to at least start using him again and maybe give him another shot to expand on the Sonic Universe and perhaps create a foil sub-series to the kid friendly tone that current Sonic games are taking. However I believe Sonic Team first needs to work on getting Sonic's reputation back up before they start to experiment with Shadow again or anything else for that matter. The Mario franchise has it's own handful of sub-series staring Luigi, Wario, Yoshi, and Donkey Kong, so why can't Sonic?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The Mario franchise has it's own handful of sub-series staring Luigi, Wario, Yoshi, and Donkey Kong, so why can't Sonic?

Mainly because, right now, the Sonic series doesn't have its shit together for it to start making subseries. That and it currently lacks the flexibility for it to branch off like that.

[Tsukine]

Mainly because, right now, the Sonic series doesn't have its shit together for it to start making subseries. That and it currently lacks the flexibility for it to branch off like that.

 

You said it, and by the look of things it looks like its gonna take some time untill Sonic Team gets their shit together with the franchise. Nintendo on the other hand.. pff, it prints money.

[Sonic is a Care Bear]

I'd be happy to play a Shadow the Hedgehog 2, if they just refined the gameplay into something more smooth and flowing. Maybe make it play more like a Star Fox game.

[Gabz Girl]

We know it's Shadow, but remember -- Shadow was brought into the series as a darker Sonic. So, he still represents Sonic, but one that's more serious.

 

The Shadow of SA2 is very different from the Shadow of his own game. I could not see Shadow of SA2 using a gun because that Shadow strikes me as the type of guy who sees guns as a waste of time. He's more powerful than those tools. He doesn't need them. Now, he's completely fine with the Eclipse Cannon because that weapon is more powerful than he is.

 

That Shadow of ShTH is different. He seems like a shell of who the Shadow of SA2 was and was lost in direction.

 

Either case, both Shadow still do represent Sonic. They have the same design, abilities, etc. And when you play them, you WILL see him as Sonic, even if it's subconscious.

 

Honestly, you'd be faster to pull off Omega in this game than Shadow (even then, I wouldn't recommend it.)

This! That was a major problem I had with Shadow in ShtH. Shadow would NEVER use guns, he would NEVER ride vehicles nor would he be all violent and edgy. There really was no point in using weapons because Shadow is already a force to be reckoned with and he doesn't need vehicles because he can already run as fast as Sonic! This game ruined Shadow's character for me and I still prefer his SA2 and Sonic Battle personas, before SEGA went FUBAR.

[Indigo Rush]

What bugs me is that Shadow had one of the coolest additions to his character and moveset that the games never take advantage of.

 

His rocket skates.

 

Think about it. Wouldn't it be sweet if you could control Shadow like some conglomeration of Sonic Adventure 2, Jet Set Radio and Tony Hawk's Pro Skater? The focus would be on causing damage around the city since he's a bit of a jerk, but the way to get points is to pull off skater tricks and wall runs with his skates.

 

Add in some "rolling physics" downhill and around half-pipes with a crouch button to gain speed, some integration with grind rails and throw in a simple combat system with the spin attack and homing dash ( also using Chaos Control if necessary), and you have yourself the core mechanics for a fun Shadow game. I mean, it'd be better than toting a gun and swearing at everything.

 

When I thought of Shadow being edgy, it was edgy in that 'punk skater' sense, not 'gangsta from tha hood.'

[Diogenes]

"Punk skater" seems a lot more like Sonic's thing than Shadow's. It's a little hard for me to imagine that the immortal bioweapon that spent 50 years cryogenically frozen and sought revenge on all of humanity is interested in sick grinds.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

What bugs me is that Shadow had one of the coolest additions to his character and moveset that the games never take advantage of.

 

His rocket skates.

 

Think about it. Wouldn't it be sweet if you could control Shadow like some conglomeration of Sonic Adventure 2, Jet Set Radio and Tony Hawk's Pro Skater? The focus would be on causing damage around the city since he's a bit of a jerk, but the way to get points is to pull off skater tricks and wall runs with his skates.

 

Add in some "rolling physics" downhill and around half-pipes with a crouch button to gain speed, some integration with grind rails and throw in a simple combat system with the spin attack and homing dash ( also using Chaos Control if necessary), and you have yourself the core mechanics for a fun Shadow game. I mean, it'd be better than toting a gun and swearing at everything.

 

When I thought of Shadow being edgy, it was edgy in that 'punk skater' sense, not 'gangsta from tha hood.'

 

I always envisioned Shadow using his skates to make sharp turns or to make some kind of awesome aerial boost or something. Or even just simply hovering in the air.

[Wittymations]

Really, I think the only time we seen Shadow use his rocket shoes for more than speed is his introduction where he goes hovering for a few seconds then fights that mech.

[Jet Prower]

You know, when it comes to those skates, wouldn't skates technically be slower and make it harder to take turns and be precise on his jumps and turns than Sonic who walks around on his feet? To me, feet would give you more control, whereas rocket shoes need to skid a bit to turn or would have to change directions which would cause some lag in the turns and such. I'm not sure how specifically his shoes work, but I would think using them as skates over running in normal shoes like Sonic would cause him to be a bit slower and less precise.

[Wittymations]

You know, when it comes to those skates, wouldn't skates technically be slower and make it harder to take turns and be precise on his jumps and turns than Sonic who walks around on his feet? To me, feet would give you more control, whereas rocket shoes need to skid a bit to turn or would have to change directions which would cause some lag in the turns and such. I'm not sure how specifically his shoes work, but I would think using them as skates over running in normal shoes like Sonic would cause him to be a bit slower and less precise.

Yeah, well, it's SEGA logic. I wouldn't look too far into science with all this stuff.

[Froggy]

"Punk skater" seems a lot more like Sonic's thing than Shadow's. It's a little hard for me to imagine that the immortal bioweapon that spent 50 years cryogenically frozen and sought revenge on all of humanity is interested in sick grinds.

Everyone loves grinding in Sonic's world, Big the Cat could grind in Heroes haha