I think it's time for Shadow the Hedgehog 2

[DBZHedgy]

Not exactly in line with the matter at hand, but I think that Shadow could take the place of Sonic on the 3DS (and PSvita, assuming anyone ever bought one of the damn things) and have Sonic be solely a console/pc character. You could experiment a crapton with Shadow, because the less powerful games take less time and budget to develop. Of course, we could see where the 3DS version of Sonic Boom goes, and with that, we could have the Project Shadow subseries of Boom (you know...cause it has a nice ring to it), at least assuming he doesn't fit in with the games. Rewrite SA2 - ShTH's story in the Sonic Boom universe from Shadow's perspective only.

I feel as if Multiple characters and Story arcs overall would be a good fix, not just for Shadow but all of the other characters. I'm kinda sick of playing as Sonic, especially since every multiplayer Sonic game (excluding Heroes) shows us that every other character is superior to Sonic in many ways. (Also, Big, and Amy from SA, but that's practically it.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I meant as the main point of the game. We can still have other playable characters - assuming they're implemented properly. I mean having Shadow as the main character of his games on the 3DS and the PSwhogivesashit while Sonic remains a main character on the console/pc games, but both series' could potentially have playable characters other than the main ones. Have a set: Tails, Knuckles, Amy for Sonic, Rouge, Omega, X third character for Shadow.

Hell, throw him in with the babylon rogues or something, they need a fourth member.

Or the Chaotix, ever since Mighty started hitting the drugs they've been out of a member.

I want Shadow to be in a sort of..."rival gang" per say, to Sonic.

[DBZHedgy]

I kinda like that idea, but ever since that game, Sonic has been the main character of everything released.

I really liked spinoffs too...

[Wittymations]

But the story isn't overly dark...

There are lighthearted moments in there, instead of doom and gloom all of the time.

The problem doesn't come from it being dark. It's the fact it tries to be dark, tries to take itself seriously, but there's no way in Hell to take something so ridiculous serious.

 

That's why it's considered, "So dark, it's a parody."

It's like they took a mishmash of dark stuff and put it together. The result was Satanic aliens.

[Komodin]

'm kinda sick of playing as Sonic, especially since every multiplayer Sonic game (excluding Heroes) shows us that every other character is superior to Sonic in many ways. (Also, Big, and Amy from SA, but that's practically it.

 

Are you certain that that's not due to those games' balancing issues with their playable characters that you think this?

[Wittymations]

I think balancing issues may come from the fact that devs don't seem to get enough time to work on these games. Also probably why they tend to have alternate playstyles fairly often, a way to fluff it.

That's a guess though.

[Blacklightning]

Funnily enough that balance has done a literal 180 ever since Unleashed came out - Sonic's been built up to such an extent that he positively rapes most of his levels, to such an extent that even corner cutting with flying and gliding would be pretty hard to balance it out with. I suppose this is in part due to the fact that level design has been far more lateral than vertical focused lately, but I digress.

[FriendBot]

But the story isn't overly dark...

There are lighthearted moments in there, instead of doom and gloom all of the time.

 

But you can't deny the fact that the game was going for a teen/young adult demographic and I guess you do have a point that the game's story wasn't all dark but I still can't seem to take it seriously but I can take Adventure 2's story seriously, care to explain why is that?

[HeroMystic]

What I'm saying is that it's kind of like seeing Mario pick up an AK-47 and use that in lieu of Fire Flowers and jumping.

 

The irony behind this is despite the absurdity of this statement, Mario would benefit from picking up an AK and blasting his enemies with them as his abilities in base form doesn't extent beyond jumping on people and a few martial arts moves. Outside of the Smash Brothers series, Mario has never really shown himself to being an extreme powerhouse without the use of power-ups. For Shadow, it's the complete opposite.

 

I believe what most people who are for Shadow tooting guns are missing is, the concept of Shadow using guns just doesn't fit. At all. Shadow has no reason to ever pick up a gun, ever. Between Chaos Control, and his similarities to Sonic, he is practically the most powerful character in the franchise. Gunplay is just extra baggage for him, and this is only doubly so since the very same game established that Shadow has access to his abilities even without possession of a Chaos Emerald. In short, the game literally belittled it's own concept.

 

As a person who actually found the gunplay from a gameplay standpoint to be "not so bad", I do not ever want to see him pick up a gun, ever. It's an antithesis of his own character.

[DBZHedgy]

But you can't deny the fact that the game was going for a teen/young adult demographic and I guess you do have a point that the game's story wasn't all dark but I still can't seem to take it seriously but I can take Adventure 2's story seriously, care to explain why is that?

That's probably because Sa2 doesn't used swears at all, much less often, and... that's pretty much all I can gather from that.

Could you perhaps elaborate on why Shadow isn't as serious as Sa2? Cause I have no idea, yes, some moments are corny, like adventure 2, but there are serious and lighthearted moments too, like adventure 2, so yea. I'm stumped.

Are you certain that that's not due to those games' balancing issues with their playable characters that you think this?

That's probably the case to be honest, but generally, several characters either play near identical to Sonic, or are the same as sonic with slighty less speed, but a broken feature to their style of play.

Tails being Flight

Knuckles being Gliding & Climbing

Silver being Psychokinesis

Shadow being Chaos whatever

 

Blaze was like the only character who wasn't as fast as Sonic, and was balanced out properly. I've run ghost trials several times with Blaze against my Ghost Sonic and Vice Versa, and their abilities balance out really well, even if they are still near identical. But TBH, I don't think there IS a way to make a new character a clone WHILE making them fun all the while. I would say Silver, but people don't seem to like him as much as I do.

[Wittymations]

I just mainly look at Shadow as far more try-hard in being dark.

 

Seriously, when making Black Arms, it's like they tried to make the most dark thing they could think of, so dark and evil, that it gets ridiculous. Really, Satanic aliens were the result. The main villain looks like a devil. Black Doom has no personality beyond being evil.

 

Plus, the idea of making a hedgehog part alien kinda is off-putting. This is the stuff Penders would write.

 

That's why it's not serious, it TRIES to be serious, but it's not. It's so out there, it's not serious whatsoever. It's like Iizuka got high and wrote this story.

[Gabz Girl]

It's like SEGA thinks any villain that's DARK and EVIL has to look like a demon or spawn of Satan. There's Black Doom, but let's also not forget Mephiles in Sonic 06. I suppose Dark Gaia counts too but at least he was in a legitamitely good game and not a sucky one.

 

But the story isn't overly dark...

There are lighthearted moments in there, instead of doom and gloom all of the time.

 

But those lighthearted moments come off as cheesy and cringey most of the time because they look out of place in this supposedly dark and "mature" game. Like when Sonic's all "Time to ROCK. AND. ROLL!" it's so weird and inappropriate when it happens.

 

ShtH was a mistake and I'm sure SEGA is never going to do a sequel to it.

[DBZHedgy]

But those lighthearted moments come off as cheesy and cringey most of the time because they look out of place in this supposedly dark and "mature" game. Like when Sonic's all "Time to ROCK. AND. ROLL!" it's so weird and inappropriate when it happens.

 

ShtH was a mistake and I'm sure SEGA is never going to do a sequel to it.

I cannot wrap my head around this mindset... 

You don't like the dark and gritty parts, but when comical parts of the same caliber of Sonic Colors, and so on jump in to remind you "Hey, it's a Sonic game!" Your angry because it doesn't fit in? Like what?

That's so contradicting... Even if it is "Cringe Worthy" because it's Out of place (Like an amusement park full of rings), it is what you wanted to be apart of the game right? To make it seem like EVERYTHING isn't 100% dark and edgy...

[DaBatGuy]

Call it tonal dissonance or emotional whiplash, either way simply adding light-hearted, humorous moments to immediately contrast the serious tone of a story does not create levity. Keeping someone emotionally invested in a serious story requires balance in how it's presented, there must be enough tension create a believable conflict but over doing it makes the tension feel forced. Humor can be used to create that balance but has to be very well timed and well placed in a story to work. Keep in mind this is only a basic description of one ShtH's many story flaws, even if Sonic, Tails, Amy, Charmy and Vector had lines that were comedy gold they would still feel out of place in such a melodramatic story.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I cannot wrap my head around this mindset... 

You don't like the dark and gritty parts, but when comical parts of the same caliber of Sonic Colors, and so on jump in to remind you "Hey, it's a Sonic game!" Your angry because it doesn't fit in? Like what?

That's so contradicting... Even if it is "Cringe Worthy" because it's Out of place (Like an amusement park full of rings), it is what you wanted to be apart of the game right? To make it seem like EVERYTHING isn't 100% dark and edgy...

It's more how the dark and gritty parts were done than simply because they're dark and gritty, which is an issue with quality and actual maturity. Especially the latter, because people have a jacked up idea of what "maturity" is.

 

The dark and gritty parts aren't good mainly because they're done in the most immature manner possible as it expects you to take it seriously. Inappropriate use of cursing, the Black Arms named in a manner that screams dark and evil through a megaphone, and Black Doom's name being an obvious example of "look at me, I'm evil" don't do the game any justice.

 

Colors isn't exactly exempt from it, but the difference with Colors is that it isn't expecting you to take its parts seriously. It's cringeworthy at times, as if say "look, this is funny," but there's a big and obvious difference it trying to be funny and trying to be serious about it.

 

When it comes to the audience, you want to seduce them into the emotions and sympathy you're trying to bring out, and ShTH does the exact opposite. Dark and edgy elements are perfectly welcome in the franchise, and their existence isn't the problem; it's the handling of such elements in a way that comes off as childish and makes people raise their eyebrows when the game is trying to force the feelings out of the audience.

[Gabz Girl]

Call it tonal dissonance or emotional whiplash, either way simply adding light-hearted, humorous moments to immediately contrast the serious tone of a story does not create levity. Keeping someone emotionally invested in a serious story requires balance in how it's presented, there must be enough tension create a believable conflict but over doing it makes the tension feel forced. Humor can be used to create that balance but has to be very well timed and well placed in a story to work. Keep in mind this is only a basic description of one ShtH's many story flaws, even if Sonic, Tails, Amy, Charmy and Vector had lines that were comedy gold they would still feel out of place in such a melodramatic story.

 

This! This is exactly what I mean!

 

The problem with ShtH is not only its tonal dissonance/emotional whiplash, but also how horrible executed it all is. Once again, I'd like to bring up Jak 2 which created a great balance between darker moments and the moments where humourous hijinks ensue. The so called "humour" in ShtH is horrible and unfitting for the story's environment. But then there are times when something that's supposed to be serious ends up being laughably bad anyway, like when Dr Eggman is killed by Shadow or when Shadow laughs like a Disney villain!

 

The balance between dark and lighthearted is just effed up in this game.

[DBZHedgy]

Call it tonal dissonance or emotional whiplash, either way simply adding light-hearted, humorous moments to immediately contrast the serious tone of a story does not create levity. Keeping someone emotionally invested in a serious story requires balance in how it's presented, there must be enough tension create a believable conflict but over doing it makes the tension feel forced. Humor can be used to create that balance but has to be very well timed and well placed in a story to work. Keep in mind this is only a basic description of one ShtH's many story flaws, even if Sonic, Tails, Amy, Charmy and Vector had lines that were comedy gold they would still feel out of place in such a melodramatic story.

But the comedy isn't overdone, it's just like a little sprinkle most of the time, and it doesn't even occur THAT often. Only every once in a while. Sonic's cocky attitude present the situation where he believes he can take on anything. As a result he shouts "Bring it on!" extensively, when he's about to fight. Team Chaotix's inner conflict, but Team spirit keep them together, but still often produce conflict within the group and cause a scaffold at times. And these parts don't even happen often. The game rarely takes opportunities like this specifically because it is supposed to be edgy, but it isn't supposed to be TOO edgy. I mean there's a Heal gun in there. What Dark and Edgy game has you going around healing people? 

 

And then, when you talk about a melodramatic story, that must mean that the entire story must focus around every thing happening, when in reality, that's up to the player. When your good, you unveil touching memories about Maria, and her sincere care for the people on the Ark, and when your bad, you get a story of how Shadow was created, and how he was meant to be this, super destruction thing. When your good, you go to a Circus Park. When your bad, you go to Eggman's Halloween Oriented Base, Cryptic Castle. The character decides what unfolds in the Story. You can't immediately label it as a melodrama when the entire game is split into separate categories of Canon, especially when said Canonical solutions aren't even made clear if it was canon or not.

 

Colors isn't exactly exempt from it, but the difference with Colors is that it isn't expecting you to take its parts seriously. It's cringeworthy at times, as if say "look, this is funny," but there's a big and obvious difference it trying to be funny and trying to be serious about it.

 

When it comes to the audience, you want to seduce them into the emotions and sympathy you're trying to bring out, and ShTH does the exact opposite. Dark and edgy elements are perfectly welcome in the franchise, and their existence isn't the problem; it's the handling of such elements in a way that comes off as childish and makes people raise their eyebrows when the game is trying to force the feelings out of the audience.

But... parts like "Bring it on!"(Sonic), and "Help me take back all of the stolen rings!"(Tails) and "Let me try! Let me Try!"(Charmy), are supposed to be taken seriously?

 

And Parts where Shadow is legitimately worried about Maria, or when he is literally so shocked he can't even stand straight aren't done improperly. It only depends on what the player chooses to do in the game. 

 

Take the first cutscene for example. (After Westopolis)

Good:

Shadow gets the Chaos Emeralds, and Sonic compliments him on his good job.

Shadow disregards his comment, and Sonic challenges him to a race.

Black Doom tells him to get out of the city.

 

Neutral:

Shadow disobeys Black Doom's command to destroy all of the human, and as punishment he's sent to a different location to execute a different task.

 

Evil:

Shadow defeats more humans, and he is then recruited by Black doom to go do more evil things. Shadow willingly accepts.

 

Since Shadow's choices are different, his attitude, and character, change as well, compensating for the changing story.  He acts more aggressively when taken on the evil route. He acts more lenient with Sonic when taking the Good route, and he takes nothing from nobody when he takes the Neutral route. How is that bad?

 

Even if that is the case, then by that logic, any game that tries to be funny initially cannot be serious because of all of the Jokey parts contradicting with the Serious parts of the story. Even if it is well executed, since the serious parts that are well executed in Shadow are completely ignored due to the rest of the game with contradict other parts since the Canonicality is a choose your story basis. 

So basically, what you guys are telling me is: It's a worse crime to be bad at being serious and to mix lighthearted parts in there, than to be bad at being funny, and mix serious parts in there?

 

If not, could you care to dissect a few cutscenes to explain how they execute their situation poorly? Here are some:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asyhFIdRPzI

 

Please, go into GREAT detail.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But... parts like "Bring it on!"(Sonic), and "Help me take back all of the stolen rings!"(Tails) and "Let me try! Let me Try!"(Charmy), are supposed to be taken seriously?

I'm not saying they are, and if anything those parts are neutral. There's nothing light or dark about them, so I don't see how that's even an argument.

 

 

 

And Parts where Shadow is legitimately worried about Maria, or when he is literally so shocked he can't even stand straight aren't done improperly. It only depends on what the player chooses to do in the game.

Yes, it is done improperly, because it's overblown too much to take seriously. Nevermind that the rest of the game doesn't make it any better. Throwing player choice into only emphasizes that because the many players who chose that route would have similar sentiments over it as well, and you'd be in the minority of those who see it as well done (which is why I don't care about personal opinions).

 

This isn't saying that you can't have Shadow be worried or shocked like that. SA2 did these parts justice, and that was a dark and serious game in itself. But that is all the more of an example of how ShTH struck a bad chord, especially when SA2 did some, but not all, of these parts without the same backlash.

 

 

 

Since Shadow's choices are different, his attitude, and character, change as well, compensating for the changing story.  He acts more aggresively when taken on the evil route. He acts more lenient with Sonic when taking the Good route, and he takes nothing from nobody when he takes the Neutral route. How is that bad?

Well, for one, it either gets thrown away in favor of the True ending or can come off as contradicting depending on which path you choose, as there are only certain paths that can connect to each other as you reach the ending.

 

But it's not a matter of his actions, it's a matter of the execution put into the scene which results in the problem I've already made out. For example, if you were to pick an ending where you fight Black Doom as the final boss, why in the world is there no hostility between Black Doom and Shadow when Doom tries to get you to hand over the Chaos Emeralds while Sonic and Co. protest against it? You'd think that, after choosing Doom as the final boss in a hero path, that he would try to take them away by force the first time instead of requesting them from you.

 

That's why it's bad. It's not that Shadow's actions don't fit, because they can when in the right circumstance. It's that there's no coherent direction, no sense made of them as you go from beginning to the true ending. 

 

 

 

Even if that is the case, then by that logic, any game that tries to be funny initially cannot be serious because of all of the Jokey parts contradicting with the Serious parts of the story. Even if it is well executed, since the serious parts that are well executed in Shadow are completely ignored due to the rest of the game with contradict other parts since the Canonicality is a choose your story basis. 

So basically, what you guys are telling me is: It's a worse crime to be bad at being serious and to mix lighthearted parts in there, than to be bad at being funny, and mix serious parts in there?

This black and white logic you using needs to stop.

 

What's worse is that its bad to pull off a poorly told and poorly written story. There is hardly anything well executed in the serious parts of ShTH, because if that was the case do you honestly think many of us would be talking about about them in a bad light? Some yes, but if those parts were actually that good, those opinions would be in the minority (in as far as we can conclude and estimate from the internet - and even that's not a given).

[DBZHedgy]

I'm not saying they are, and if anything those parts are neutral. There's nothing light or dark about them, so I don't see how that's even an argument.

I can understand Sonic and Tails, but Charmy's goofiness seemed a little bit more lighthearted than neutral perceptions.

 

Yes, it is done improperly, because it's overblown too much to take seriously. Nevermind that the rest of the game doesn't make it any better. Throwing player choice into only emphasizes that because the many players who chose that route would have similar sentiments over it as well, and you'd be in the minority of those who see it as well done (which is why I don't care about personal opinions).

How? I really don't see it. (That's kinda why I provided the Video links...)

 

This isn't saying that you can't have Shadow be worried or shocked like that. SA2 did these parts justice, and that was a dark and serious game in itself. But that is all the more of an example of how ShTH struck a bad chord, especially when SA2 did some, but not all, of these parts without the same backlash.

I honestly can't grip this unless you provide  examples of how those contrasting cutscenes pan out to be bad or good. I mean, some Maria cutscenes are the same as Adventure 2's with better graphics and arguably equal voice acting.

 

Well, for one, it either gets thrown away in favor of the True ending or can come off as contradicting depending on which path you choose, as there are only certain paths that can connect to each other as you reach the ending.

I can understand the True ending statement... (although, nothing the True ending does really contradicts anything in the story, but it doesn't allude to any of it either)

 

But it's not a matter of his actions, it's a matter of the execution put into the scene which results in the problem I've already made out. For example, if you were to pick an ending where you fight Black Doom as the final boss, why in the world is there no hostility between Black Doom and Shadow when Doom tries to get you to hand over the Chaos Emeralds while Sonic and Co. protest against it? You'd think that, after choosing Doom as the final boss in a hero path, that he would try to take them away by force the first time instead of requesting them from you.

I always perceived it as a "Last Chance to say your sorry" before I destroy you. Several final bosses in several video games do that.

 

That's why it's bad. It's not that Shadow's actions don't fit, because they can when in the right circumstance. It's that there's no coherent direction, no sense made of them as you go from beginning to the true ending. 

Ah, so the story needs to be more stiff with it's story direction for it to be properly executed? Like instead of crossing from Neutral to Good to Evil, it should have you be Good Evil or Bad all the way through?

Yea, that would fix the problem of the over open-endedness and with the Ten time completion, to get to the final story.

 

The True Ending was outright useless to begin with, but it had to bring the story full circle, so the next game didn't have to go along with Black Doom taking over the world with Shadow Ect, Ect. Since this game is made in a series I guess a choose your story was pretty dumb to begin with, unless the game made clear which events were Canon and which weren't.

 

What's worse is that its bad to pull off a poorly told and poorly written story. There is hardly anything well executed in the serious parts of ShTH, because if that was the case do you honestly think many of us would be talking about about them in a bad light? Some yes, but if those parts were actually that good, those opinions would be in the minority (in as far as we can conclude and estimate from the internet - and even that's not a given).

I wouldn't say it's poorly written, but the execution is lacking though. As said above, the open-endedness was to blame for that.

 

As for "Some yes" which parts were at least OK, from your perception at least?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

How? I really don't see it. (That's kinda why I provided the Video links...)

 

I honestly can't grip this unless you provide  examples of how those contrasting cutscenes pan out to be bad or good. I mean, some Maria cutscenes are the same as Adventure 2's with better graphics and arguably equal voice acting.

My examples are more explanatory, because you've seen the cutscenes and don't have a problem with them.

 

Let me put it this way, given how ShTH was done, mainly for Shadow to rediscover his path - which the fans already knew of anyway - they're overblown for the sake of trying to force the same feelings we had when we saw them in SA2. It's done in a way as if it were saying "remember how sad this scene was?" as it reminds us about SA2. Part of that has to do with the amnesia plot that was used as a means to go through SA2 while adding stuff out of the blue, as there is nothing wrong with reminding us of these things for the sake of progressing the plot and discovering something actually connected to the scene that we didn't know about. But that scene where Maria was dying added nothing new to the narrative that we didn't already know about before, such as the circumstances of why she died, and was there for the sake of a reminder and nothing more.

 

It's not about the graphics, it's not about the voice acting, it was in the way the scenes were brought back in order to justify having Shadow discover them again and as a reminder for the player's that have played SA2.

 

 

 

I can understand the True ending statement... (although, nothing the True ending does really contradicts anything in the story, but it doesn't allude to any of it either)

It contradicts the other endings, hence my statement. The other parts are ambiguous up until you reach the last level, then it leaves you wondering what was the point in being in either the GUN fortress or Eggman's base if the actual last level was the Black Comet, and how you even got from those locations to space.

 

Either way, not coherent storytelling.

 

 

 

I always perceived it as a "Last Chance to say your sorry" before I destroy you. Several final bosses in several video games do that.

It would make more sense if he was threatening Shadow instead of requesting it then if that were the case. 

 

 

 

Ah, so the story needs to be more stiff with it's story direction for it to be properly executed? Like instead of crossing from Neutral to Good to Evil, it should have you be Good Evil or Bad all the way through?

Yea, that would fix the problem of the over open-endedness and with the Ten time completion, to get to the final story.

Not exactly. There should be a singular direction to the story instead of a "choose your path" story, and the main objective can be ambiguous between working with the heroes in one level, then working with the villains in the next, or the next level dictating that you strike out on your own and let the good and bad guys beat each other up or such as you progress to the final story.

 

That's one way to make it's story better, but that's not a guarantee for the other elements.

 

 

 

 

As for "Some yes" which parts were at least OK, from your perception at least?

I meant "Some yes" as in there would be people who would still talk about the game in a bad light, not on the parts of the game.

[Chaos Controller]

And I think it's time for you to die....

But, seriously, Shadow th Hedgehog is just the worst.

No... Just.... Just no...

[G-Force]

I'd just like to say that I would actually be interested in a Shadow the Hedgehog 2, but ONLY if they abandoned the shitty, forced "dark and gritty, shootin' up bitches" angle and instead focused on the branching storyline element.  And also did a good job with all of the various production values and what not.  Polished game play, well written story, good voice acting, just generally well made everything.

 

I've actually been playing around with the concept in my head a bit, but I doubt anyone would be interested in reading what I have in mind.

[DBZHedgy]

It's not about the graphics, it's not about the voice acting, it was in the way the scenes were brought back in order to justify having Shadow discover them again and as a reminder for the player's that have played SA2.

Alot of games do that. Cut-and-Pasting cutscenes into the new games regardless of the graphics Ect, Ect. Can't honestly see how it's a problem here. Really good games do that too, no flack attached. Kingdom Hearts 2 for example. It isn't to say that Shadow only shows those rehashed cutscenes. They add to them. Making them into a playable experience instead of just one part of a cutscene.

 

It contradicts the other endings, hence my statement. The other parts are ambiguous up until you reach the last level, then it leaves you wondering what was the point in being in either the GUN fortress or Eggman's base if the actual last level was the Black Comet, and how you even got from those locations to space.

No it doesn't... Just how Shadow teleports when he follows the neutral mission on Westopolis, or how he just teleported to Eggman's base. He could easily teleport to that comet. It doesn't contradict anything, except really... except for the "I am Evil" scenarios.

 

It would make more sense if he was threatening Shadow instead of requesting it then if that were the case. 

Eh, it could simply be BD's elegant persona. You know. The common cliche of the bad guy acting like a gentlemen/women before a fight.

 

Not exactly. There should be a singular direction to the story instead of a "choose your path" story, and the main objective can be ambiguous between working with the heroes in one level, then working with the villains in the next, or the next level dictating that you strike out on your own and let the good and bad guys beat each other up or such as you progress to the final story.

 

That's one way to make it's story better, but that's not a guarantee for the other elements.

Ah, so the Evil vs Good was a flaw. That would make sense. It probably just needed more polish, and a bit less flexibility, and it could be fine.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Alot of games do that. Cut-and-Pasting cutscenes into the new games regardless of the graphics Ect, Ect. Can't honestly see how it's a problem here. Really good games do that too, no flack attached. Kingdom Hearts 2 for example. It isn't to say that Shadow only shows those rehashed cutscenes. They add to them. Making them into a playable experience instead of just one part of a cutscene.

Yet this does not make ShTH's plot any good, because unlike Kingdom Hearts 2, there is a more coherent path and narrative instead of one the player choose, with a definitive ending connected to the progression of events within the game. Kingdom Hearts also does not have a choose your path storytelling that gets thrown away when you reach the end in favor of a true ending, muddling up the connection of the scenes done in previous games, so this is not a strong point to make in favor ShTH which makes a total mess in its plotline. What ShTH adds to the scenes doesn't build upon anything we didn't already know about, and if anything would have done better without the branching paths.

 

All in all, just because a lot of games do this does not mean ShTH is good for doing it, and lot of games also fail at doing it as well.

 

 

 

No it doesn't... Just how Shadow teleports when he follows the neutral mission on Westopolis, or how he just teleported to Eggman's base. He could easily teleport to that comet. It doesn't contradict anything, except really... except for the "I am Evil" scenarios.

Yes it does. And even if it didn't that doesn't remove the fact that the progression is such a mess to even make sense of. There is a thing call "Show, don't tell" that should be paid mind to, because if you have to do guess work in order to make sense of where one scene leads to another in a narrative heavy plot such as ShTH, then the storytelling is doing a poor job.

 

For instance, if you were at GUN's HQ, why the hell am I suppose to assume Shadow teleported from there to the comet, when the story could have easily shown me how he got there to make sense and take the burden off the viewer in order to be coherent? Especially if I were to choose Diablon as my final boss and side with Black Doom, and then suddenly play the final story where we're on the comet with no in-game explanation that shows them getting there and I'm somehow against him with the path I've chosen showing no hints of me wanting to betray him. This is all the more of a flaw in ShTH incoherence in it's narrative.

 

There are things the storytelling is suppose to do for the reader instead of leaving the viewer figure things out on their own and not bother to clear things up. To defend having the viewer guess how things should work out between the events like this is to justify poor storytelling because the story is suppose to make sense first and foremost, and any ambiguity that makes things incoherent, but doesn't bother to address them to clear any problems, is not to a narrative's benefit.

 

 

 

Eh, it could simply be BD's elegant persona. You know. The common cliche of the bad guy acting like a gentlemen/women before a fight.

That does not undermine my point that if you went against Black Doom in one ending, he should be threatening you in the final story.

[Blacklightning]

Yet this does not make ShTH's plot any good, because unlike Kingdom Hearts 2, there is a more coherent path and narrative instead of one the player choose, with a definitive ending connected to the progression of events within the game.

Adding onto this, most of the story arcs assume you'll stay on one specific level of morality throughout the entire playthrough - so it's easily possible to create blatant, hilarious plotholes just by zigzagging a little. And it amuses me to think they never actually considered this while making the game, while they still thought to make an individual tagline for every one of the possible paths through the game.

 

The most obvious example I can think of is the relationship between Sky Troops and Glyphic Canyon. The Sky Troops area is actually a series of floating ruins that had been buried in the earth for two millennia according to Black Doom, and the dark objective for Glyphic Canyon is activating them so that they start flying in the first place. The first problem lies in the fact that actually activating the ruins sends you into a plot thread in which they're never actually revisited unless you fail Cryptic Castle immediately afterwards, so the game is establishing buildup that leads into absolutely nothing.

 

The second is that Sky Troops happens regardless of what happens in Glyphic Canyon. Most people discover that on their first playthrough, naturally, because "morality" objectives are complete crap. Even if you just run straight to the Chaos Emerald (or help Knux out and rebound back to neutral after Circus Park), the ruins are still flying regardless of your involvement. In fact, it's still possible to get to Sky Troops without visiting Glyphic Canyon at all by wiping out either faction in Westopolis and rebounding to neutral in the next 1-2 missions, in which case the plot thread comes plain out of nowhere and comes off as some kind of Deus Ex Machina on Black Doom's part. Even if you make the argument that Black Doom and his forces activated the ruins on their own, why send Shadow to do something so apparently trivial in the first place then when they could just go back to sending him to murder GUN troops or something? Hell, if I'm remembering this right, his forces are already in most of the areas you need to trigger the ruins from!

 

I think ultimately what this proves is that treating morality as binary in videogames is just a plain fucking stupid idea. It's something that should be taken on a case-by-case basis, because the moment you can get away with nuking a city by giving copious amounts of water to one guy is the moment all suspension of disbelief is utterly destroyed. On the bright side though, I always did find it amusing whenever I screwed up finding the artifical chaos in Lost Impact, the literal first thing Shadow says apon returning to reality is "this doesn't make any sense".