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Gameplay Consistency: What would you want?


SlickEvan

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New Opening Post, old one is below please do read if you're interested...

 

So guys if there was to be a "reboot" of gameplay where Sonic Team would be making a new gameplay style that will be carried for games to come how you like it to be? And how would you think it'd be handled? (This is a WHAT IF type of topic, I do know of how Unleashed was kind of a "reboot" of sorts and such)

 

What I'd like: 

 

Something kind of like Sonic's Adventure 1 gameplay but it would be spread across all characters with their special abilities and such. It'd also be cool if Sonic's "speed break" ability from Sonic Advance 2 in it. Items boxes would make a return with new power up's such as the rocket, or even something completely new. 

 

For other character's I'd like it to be handled as they have Sonic's gameplay but with special abilities and like adventure 1 share levels with all the characters but with more defined routes that would be catered to just them and many more paths that are dived by skill (this can more or less be applied to Sonic without a reboot as well)

 

Just like a gameplay style they could pick up and carry for more games to come to make a consistent base for all the next games.

 

Do you wanna see the Boost come back and be the base for all games, or Heroes style? Please give your ideas.

 

TL;DR How would you design a consistent Sonic Game base to be used in many games to come?

 

So for this topic I was thinking that, majorly, we'd discuss what we'd want to see out of a full put Reboot to the current Blue Blur and minor we'd talk about how we'd think Sonic Team of this day and age would handle it.

 

I personally like the idea of a Reboot and.. you might hate me for this but.. a return to Adventure gameplay. Now hear me out, like Sonic's gameplay for every character with their own special abilities. How I'd like Sonic designed? Like semi classic with an Unleashed sort of...? something.. I'll get a picture:

 

classic_sonic__cd__by_batterypoweredmonk

 

(Large Image) But with like soles like most current Sonic' and a tad taller. You'd still have a boost bar but with spindash it'd be a tad out-shined but you'd collect item boxes that add to the boost meter? Or just scrap boost entirely and have a function like Sonic Advance 2 where Sonic would have an ability to speed break to, after keeping top speed for awhile, "boost" or speed break just like Sonic Advance 2 but maybe it could make you bust through walls that spindash can't or makes him impervious to enemy touch. You'd have a campaign like most all Sonic games that would include Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles (this could probably change the more games they release.) 

 

I have no story thoughts or anything because I'm talking about a general reboot but feel free to post your story ideas For the reboot and more gameplay ideas. What I posted was just a topic starter type thought of what I want. I may elaborate later.

 

As for the execution... if this would ever happen I would really hope for Sonic Team to be on board completely with the project because with how "safe" they play it I wonder if they can do anything else. 

 

v Sonic Team Talk in spoiler v

So yeah in another topic I was reading I realized just how safe they play it. Like Sonic 4 being handled by Dimps rather than themselves, Sonic Unleashed onward not taking much risk, and even with the spindash in Lost World how it's practically a boost that needs to be rev'd up and etc. So I would hope if they ever did they put their all into it like how they put their all into Unleashed

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There's absolutely ZERO reason to reboot Sonic the Hedgehog at this point.

 

Let's see, 06 was conceived as a re-imagining of The Blue Blur, and we all know how well that ended up. To be fair, we can't label it as such anymore, but at the same time, I don't see why trying again would be necessary in any way, shape, or form.

 

Let's be frank, if we want a re-imagining of Sonic that feels like a Reboot (but really isn't, as the main series will run parallel), that's what Sonic Boom is for. You know, taking place in an alternate continuity, reshaping characters to how they see fit, you get the gist of it.

 

It's not that I'm fully against it, and while it's possible a potential reboot from Sonic Team of all developers could pave way to more consistency in gameplay styles, is it needed at the moment? Nah, aucun, and Īe.

 

EDIT: and now that I've fully read the OP, I can see where you're getting at. If Sonic's gameplay is rebooted into something different from what we've seen lately, and tries to keep it consistent across several entries, then yes please, I'm all for it. A full on series reboot would be redundant, but revamping some of the series' core mechanics and gameplay quite a bit? Sure.

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Let's see, 06 was conceived as a re-imagining of The Blue Blur, and we all know how well that ended up. To be fair, we can't label it as such anymore, but at the same time, I don't see why trying again would be necessary in any way, shape, or form.

 

Unleashed was also something of a "soft reboot," stripping most of the extraneous characters that had bogged the series down and focusing on a simpler, more focused storyline while also completely reinventing how the games played.

 

EDIT: One more thing, I think coming out and saying "We're rebooting the series" at this point would be a bad move for Sonic Team. To the video gaming community at large it would probably come off as nothing more than a cheap, "trying too hard" tactic to move units.

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Unleashed was also something of a "soft reboot," stripping most of the extraneous characters that had bogged the series down and focusing on a simpler, more focused storyline while also completely reinventing how the games played.  

While I don't think Unleashed would entirely fit that bill, it did exactly what it sought out to do: regress a bit, and go back to basics in many areas, while still bringing back other 3D Sonic staples so it felt like the same Blue Blur we know and love (for the most part.) Sometimes you have to trim some of the extra fat to make your game work, so I do appreciate how Unleashed sought to breathe life into the series with that approach.

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Okay edited the Title to more "clearly" define what you're getting into when you read the topic. What I mean is if they were to try to make gameplay more consistent for games to come and "remake" Sonic so that the fanbase, while still having preferences to old games when wanting a new game, would still always be able to accept that it will be a consistent game base. And for story I mean making the lore more in-depth. Not a whole new everything. Besides the design, I still think that'd look cool tongue.png

 

HogFather, you're killin' me man. :P More like a gameplay reboot man.

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I tend to be against a reboot. Other than the fact that it's lazy when the problems with the series itself can/should be addressed (particularly because it's not all tied up in nonsense beyond the creators' control) instead of swept under the rug, I honestly don't think it's going to change the perception of the franchise within the general public's eye anyway. I don't exactly see anybody letting Sonic '06 die down, despite that it's been buried for years at this point, so I don't think a reboot will fix those issues.

 

If there needs to be a reboot, I'd prefer a soft one. One that nails down a direction that's open to different possibilities and ideas, but still easily identify with the Sonic branding and makes better use of this huge back-catalog of mythology Sonic Team themselves cooked up. If Archie (post-reboot) can get so much mileage out of Sonic Team's ideas, things that they probably hadn't even thought of, it just makes Sonic Team look like they don't know what they're doing with their own creation.

 

Unleashed, for all intents and purposes, can be looked at this way. The world was significantly more built-up and thought out compared to, well, anything that came before, I'd say. I get the impression Sonic Team might have wanted to do more with this world before the game flopped, and they might started reintroducing characters, slowly, through it. And with how varied the world of Sonic is across the many games, it seems like there's room for a semi-realistic Earth analog, with all the fantastic, futuristic, and out there ideas that came before. It might not be absolutely seamless... but isn't that kind of the fun of it?

 

And, really, that's all I want. They have enough great material already, and for all their attempts with playing it safe... they may as well take all the stuff they've created and try to make it all work, bit by bit, keeping a loose continuity that allows people to dive in with each installment, and constantly building on the world in an interesting way. "Playing it safe" hasn't done them any favors, anyway (going back to the perception thing).

 

EDIT: If we're talking purely gameplay... well, I was fine with how Lost World controlled (barring the Wisps, though that was somewhat fixed with the patch)... so, I dunno. I'd maybe take that free-roaming style, mix it with the scope of the Adventures and Unleashed and the storytelling of the Storybooks, and I'd be good. I'd have to give more thoughts to specifics, though if anything, I'd rather the Wisps get the boot and traditional Sonic power-ups came back into favor, perhaps expanded upon (or maybe straight up using the ability upgrades a la the Adventures). Not that I hate the Wisps, but they're basically designed to do things either Sonic or his friends can already do, for the most part, so why not just put the focus back on the cast that's obviously not doing anything?

 

I think it's possible for Sonic Team to find a consistent approach that gives everyone a bit of everything they want with a Sonic game, the question is if they can sit still long enough and actually improve upon it with several entries instead of going back to square one every time the critics say "we don't like it!" (which they'll always say, I feel...)

Edited by Zaysho
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They reboot the gameplay every few years anyway, and it sounds like that's basically what's happening right now, so look forward to your speculations being realised in 2015.

 

Hah, I guess you could say that's true but this is more like a "what if- they made a gameplay style and stuck what it, what in-depth would you want?" type of topic.

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The only thing that needs to be rebooted is stupid fucking Sonic Team's staff.

 

Agreed on rebooting Sonic Team. They're either incompetent designers or tired of Sonic -- both are bad for the series.

 

Can't disagree here.

 

Though I'd like to clarify that I feel that the art/graphics designers and music composers have been consistently solid so far. It's the game designers and top execs who call the shots on how today's Sonic games are designed and written are the ones who need to get the boot for the sake of this series.

 

Dimps can likewise benefit from a similar reboot as well.

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I think this topic should have jusr been titled how would you design sonic.

 

And to answer that quickly it would just be something like a kart racer like asr with platforming and combat added in

Done. and Done. Yeah that's pretty much, kinda wanted the topic to be.

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Me? Well basically, you have the physics and control akin to that of Sonic in SA2. Except for obvious things like moving the light dash to the Y button and the somersault to the B button (if you were looking at an Xbox controller, I mean), it should be mostly the same.

In terms of structure, yes I could go for the multiple stories route, but in terms of gameplay, you should have one primary method: get to the goal. I love games like SA1 and, to a lesser extent, SA2, but I think that the most fitting gameplay for Sonic is the high-speed full 3d platforming route. Characters like Tails, Knuckles, and even Amy could at least sort of function if you hacked them into Sonic's stages in SA1 (with the exception of Knuckles, whose glide can break the game because he can use it multiple times in a single jump). I want that. The stages don't even have to be in the same order, hell, they can be different stages, and different stories if that's what it takes, but Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Amy (well, if you speed her up some) all played best in SA1. Just have one gameplay style, and multiple characters. In fact, you could do this for any character in Sonic 06 if everyone controlled well and had a spin jump. In terms of differentiating them, well, Blaze and Silver can hover, Silver moreso but it's shorter time, Shadow could be a combination of Sonic's speed and Amy's combat with his chaos moves replacing her hammer, etc. 

 

TL;DR version: Everyone goes from start to finish, everyone is fast, has a spin jump that works, and has controls as good as SA1 and 2's Sonic.

 

Screw the "Sonic should be marble blast" mentality.

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I want speed to actually feel rewarding, not something that is so easily gained with the click of a button (The Boost, Lost World's run button).

 

Yeah, I tend to rip Advance 2 a new asshole until the cows come home on its balancing of playable characters and level design, but I can't help but laud it for how speed is gained. The more you constantly move, the faster you get and I mean really, REALLY fucking fast!

 

Sonic_Advance_2_-_2003_-_Sega.jpg

 

I love love LOVE the visual effect of breaking the sound barrier when you speed through a level. With less emphasis on speed boosters and springs, but wide open levels with alternate pathways that are accommodating of building up momentum, you basically get the feel of certain Classic/Adventure levels, with Advance 2's blistering-ly fast sense of movement, that actually has to be obtained.

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Me? Well basically, you have the physics and control akin to that of Sonic in SA2. Except for obvious things like moving the light dash to the Y button and the somersault to the B button (if you were looking at an Xbox controller, I mean), it should be mostly the same.

In terms of structure, yes I could go for the multiple stories route, but in terms of gameplay, you should have one primary method: get to the goal. I love games like SA1 and, to a lesser extent, SA2, but I think that the most fitting gameplay for Sonic is the high-speed full 3d platforming route. Characters like Tails, Knuckles, and even Amy could at least sort of function if you hacked them into Sonic's stages in SA1 (with the exception of Knuckles, whose glide can break the game because he can use it multiple times in a single jump). I want that. The stages don't even have to be in the same order, hell, they can be different stages, and different stories if that's what it takes, but Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Amy (well, if you speed her up some) all played best in SA1. Just have one gameplay style, and multiple characters. In fact, you could do this for any character in Sonic 06 if everyone controlled well and had a spin jump. In terms of differentiating them, well, Blaze and Silver can hover, Silver moreso but it's shorter time, Shadow could be a combination of Sonic's speed and Amy's combat with his chaos moves replacing her hammer, etc. 

 

TL;DR version: Everyone goes from start to finish, everyone is fast, has a spin jump that works, and has controls as good as SA1 and 2's Sonic.

 

Screw the "Sonic should be marble blast" mentality.

Any time I see someone wishing to return to the adventure 2 physics I have to question how long it's actually been since they've played it, here is no different.  That game's control was very twitchy, the characters in that game weren't fun to move around.  And that's really what I think has been missing.  Well, a lot of things have been missing, but I don't really want to write that long a post at the moment, but safe to say that a Sonic game needs fluent control and physics and needs to remember that speed doesn't just have to mean running in a single direction. 

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Any time I see someone wishing to return to the adventure 2 physics I have to question how long it's actually been since they've played it, here is no different.  That game's control was very twitchy, the characters in that game weren't fun to move around.  And that's really what I think has been missing.  Well, a lot of things have been missing, but I don't really want to write that long a post at the moment, but safe to say that a Sonic game needs fluent control and physics and needs to remember that speed doesn't just have to mean running in a single direction. 

 

I've played both SA1 and 2 recently and they control much much better than the newer games, the character's don't just slide because they build up speed too fast, aka Sonic in Unleashed, Colours and such.

I think the characters are fun to move around, since they all have their own way of moving and set of abilities you can make use of. Tails and Eggman can be a bit of a pain sometimes though.

 

I'd like to have something like Sa1/2 elements mixed with generations, if that's even possible.

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I've played both SA1 and 2 recently and they control much much better than the newer games, the character's don't just slide because they build up speed too fast, aka Sonic in Unleashed, Colours and such.

I think the characters are fun to move around, since they all have their own way of moving and set of abilities you can make use of. Tails and Eggman can be a bit of a pain sometimes though.

 

I'd like to have something like Sa1/2 elements mixed with generations, if that's even possible.

Controlling better than Unleashed isn't that hard, where Sonic moves like a bar of soap.  

 

SA 1 I don't think of as being that twitchy... most of the time.  Irregular surfaces would tend to show its flaws, there's a bit near the start of speed highway where there's a curved surface and Sonic seems to go in whatever direction he wants at that spot.  

 

I'm not actually sure how much of SA 1's controls is down to the dreamcast controllers actually really good analog stick.  But with SA 2,  Sonic likes couldn't really go all that fast on their own, the controls really weren't there for it.  They control sort of like a proto aught six (That's 06 if you don't know what aught is), where the character pretty much just goes in the direction you push the stick right away.  In sharp contrast to the bar of soap controls, I think of these as "gas molecule" controls.  The funny thing is that different as these controls are, the levels Sega has ended up putting them in have been pretty similar, because in either case expecting the player to do much more than what can be described as "intervening" is too much.  The solution is somewhere in the middle, and the most reliable and versatile way for it to work is to do it via a physics model.  

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I want the spindash from SA1. The one that can be tapped for a ball or spammed for constant speed. Go start a new game and realize how different the first 3D spindash is. It's still vital unlike the games after Heroes, and not delayed like the one in SA2. We only get the fan service spindash now, spindash while drifting, spindash as speed mode. None of this is real. The spindash in SA1 was so fast you could zip up vertical walls in the Mystic Ruins if you abused it. And it should be abused. It made the game fun to break and speed run. Let me become a fast blue ball and I'll be happy.

 

I also want expanded combat, to give players freedom instead of just using certain moves at certain times (badnik riding would be badass plz), but that's another post that I haven't really worked out in my head yet.

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If you want to spam a button for speed, why not just keep the boost? One of the reasons the classic spindash was great is that it had reasonable restrictions built into it. You couldn't just spam it to go fast all the time, you had to stop and charge it, meaning it was generally more satisfying to maintain your speed and move fluidly.

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Well the SA1 spindash is like that. Not charging it enough will cause it to peter off into a weak roll. And the boost fails in close quarters, it's just a big dumb jolt forward. SA1's spindash is very flexible, you can send Sonic in several circles and figure eights before it cools to regular speeds. It's vital to the game but not the only aspect of gameplay like the boost, which had several games dedicated to its concept of just flying forward. Colors cut the boost in half, probably to make room for gimmicks that weren't that. The boost is OK, but it limits things. It feels to me like a very carefully tailored move for the game when compared to the boost, or later spindashes. Also, balls man. I wanna be a ball.

 

(Also Diogenes I know your argument is more like, well you don't have to slow down to keep charging it, so it's like the boost in that respect, BUT... One main difference between the 2D and 3D version, in the scheme of it, is the lack of crouching in 3D. It just makes more sense to map it to a single button like that. And this makes it more spammable, however it's not as if abusing the spindash is not an acquired skill, just like abusing it in the classic games can be. Spamming the spindash in SA1 requires a constant bearing on where you are going, even a half a moment to tack out a new direction, and I'd argue that changing course in 3D is similar to quick stopping and smashing out a 2D spindash while speed running, and as skillful. No skill, no reward. The boost doesn't require skill, so it's not a fun concept.)

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