What you thought of Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood.

[Leon K Fox]

Really people? Really? You're going to argue over the maps in Sonic, seriously now cmon that's just stupid nitpicking.

If you don't like discussion and theorising, why did you register to a forum?

Why did you bother posting in the thread if you think it's so "stupid" to begin with on that same note?

Edited July 9, 2009 by Leon K Fox

[Yong]

If you don't like discussion and theorising, why did you register to a forum?

Why did you bother posting in the thread if you think it's so "stupid" to begin with on that same note?

Well I have to agree since the developers that have worked on Sonic games haven't been consistent at all when it comes to world maps, so I believe it's better not to dwell on it rather than think too deeply into it. Also it threatens to sprial the discussion off the intended topic. Though I haven't been reading up on everything in this discussion. I'm just adding my two cents to the comment.

[Kiljoy]

If you don't like discussion and theorising, why did you register to a forum?

Why did you bother posting in the thread if you think it's so "stupid" to begin with on that same note?

The topic of the thread is not about which maps are correct in the sonic universe and how they interact with each other, it's about Sonic chronicles. And me saying it's nitpicking is part of the discussion.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Kiljoy

[Leon K Fox]

The topic of the thread is not about which maps are correct in the sonic universe and how they interact with each other, it's about Sonic chronicles.

So Sonic Chronichles is a part of that, it has maps, it has a world, and it's a canon title. Therefore it IS relevant to the thread.

Your point completley evades me to be honest.

[Diogenes]

and it's a canon title.

That's arguable...personally I'm leaning strongly towards noncanon at this point.

[Dr. Mechano]

That's arguable...personally I'm leaning strongly towards noncanon at this point.

It does contradict a lot.

The Codex even said that "Shadow teamed up with Sonic to defeat Dr. Eggman", in regards to SA2, even though this absolutely never happened. In fact, the two of them have never simultaneously fought against Eggman before.

And let's not forget Eggman never thinking he and Sonic would team up, because you know, that's never happened before.

Chronicles is referencing past events that never even happened, and disregarding events that did. Its canon status is very questionable, to say nothing of how out-of-character our vengeful heroes seem to be in the beginning.

Never mind that Eggman apparently uses roboticization in this game (In the case of turning armadillos into Robodillos), a concept that was never in the game series. Putting animals inside Badniks is not the same as turning them into robots.

Edited July 9, 2009 by El Gran Gordo

[Flyboy Fox]

Several years have passed before the canon of the game, so a lot could have happened... however, I tend to put this game as "possible canon" rather than "definite canon".

Why? Because according to the main time-line, it hasn't happened yet. Therefore, it's really only a possible future, rather than a definite one.

[Kiljoy]

So Sonic Chronichles is a part of that, it has maps, it has a world, and it's a canon title. Therefore it IS relevant to the thread.

Your point completley evades me to be honest.

wrong, it touches exactly on your point, it's sidetracking when you start arguing which map is the right map, if you want a topic about sonic maps, make one. Also, as I said, Me saying that it's nitpicking to complain about a game because of it's map is still me contributing to the discussion, because it is nitpicking. Did you really enjoy the game less because of the look of the map?

[Dr. Mechano]

Several years have passed before the canon of the game, so a lot could have happened... however, I tend to put this game as "possible canon" rather than "definite canon".

Why? Because according to the main time-line, it hasn't happened yet. Therefore, it's really only a possible future, rather than a definite one.

I suppose. But the heroes talk of roboticization familiarly, meaning even before the timeskip that Eggman was using the technique, even though it has absolutely no presence in the game series- aside from Chronicles- whatsoever.

[Diogenes]

Why? Because according to the main time-line, it hasn't happened yet. Therefore, it's really only a possible future, rather than a definite one.

So where, exactly, is this coming from? I know there was some talk about it being 2 years in the future or something like that before the game came out. But looking at the game itself, it says nothing about when the attack on Eggman's airship happened, so I see no reason to assume that's in the future. The time skip is most likely after that and before the real story starts, a time in which Eggman is presumed dead and Sonic is running off on his own, which doesn't leave many options for other games.

[Leon K Fox]

wrong, it touches exactly on your point, it's sidetracking when you start arguing which map is the right map, if you want a topic about sonic maps, make one. Also, as I said, Me saying that it's nitpicking to complain about a game because of it's map is still me contributing to the discussion, because it is nitpicking. Did you really enjoy the game less because of the look of the map?

I never said I did, I'm just saying that calling discussions (whatever they may be about) on a forum based around one specific fandom is a bit...well... pointless when forums are generally made for exactly that.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Leon K Fox

[Flyboy Fox]

I suppose. But the heroes talk of roboticization familiarly, meaning even before the timeskip that Eggman was using the technique, even though it has absolutely no presence in the game series- aside from Chronicles- whatsoever.

I admit that is a little odd, and doesn't quite fit. Did they specifically refer to the procedure as always having been that of turning an organic being into a metal one, rather than simply using the name as a catch-all for all the oranic-powered bots of the early days?

[Blazey Firekitty]

I admit that is a little odd, and doesn't quite fit. Did they specifically refer to the procedure as always having been that of turning an organic being into a metal one, rather than simply using the name as a catch-all for all the oranic-powered bots of the early days?

At the beginning of the game, Tails mentions Eggman "turning our friends into robots and pitting them against us." It's still vague, but it seems to be referencing the American/European notion that the animal inside the Badnik was in fact the Badnik's mind.

[Flyboy Fox]

That sounds like it could easily be a way of describing the critter-powered badniks of the old-days without really implying the SatAM 'roboticization'. So it still could fit.

[Blazey Firekitty]

That sounds like it could easily be a way of describing the critter-powered badniks of the old-days without really implying the SatAM 'roboticization'. So it still could fit.

Yup!

[batson]

it seems to be referencing the American/European notion that the animal inside the Badnik was in fact the Badnik's mind.

Hey now, wait a minute, didn't Gammas chapter in SA prove that that is also the case in the Japanese version? Gamma's mind was clearly the mind of the Flicky inside him, albeit brainwashed and memory-wiped.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Hey now, wait a minute, didn't Gammas chapter in SA prove that that is also the case in the Japanese version? Gamma's mind was clearly the mind of the Flicky inside him, albeit brainwashed and memory-wiped.

Hmm, come to think of it, you seem to be right.

[Dr. Mechano]

Hey now, wait a minute, didn't Gammas chapter in SA prove that that is also the case in the Japanese version? Gamma's mind was clearly the mind of the Flicky inside him, albeit brainwashed and memory-wiped.

Clearly? I think the implication was that the Flicky affected Gamma's personality, not that the Flicky was Gamma's personality.

It seems no small coincidence that shortly after this, the prevalence of animals in Badniks declined sharply. Perhaps Eggman realized this fatal flaw, switching to mostly nonliving power sources (Rings in Advance 3, and apparently no clear source in most other recent games). These robots still appear to have personalities, such as the Egg Fighters in Sonic Unleashed, which can even talk to you in the hub area of Eggman Land.

[Blue Blood]

There were Armadillos in the Mystic Ruins that had clearly been turned into robots.

Tails: Were those armadillos...

Knuckles: Roboticized?

[Blazey Firekitty]

Clearly? I think the implication was that the Flicky affected Gamma's personality, not that the Flicky was Gamma's personality.

It seems no small coincidence that shortly after this, the prevalence of animals in Badniks declined sharply. Perhaps Eggman realized this fatal flaw, switching to mostly nonliving power sources (Rings in Advance 3, and apparently no clear source in most other recent games). These robots still appear to have personalities, such as the Egg Fighters in Sonic Unleashed, which can even talk to you in the hub area of Eggman Land.

When I think about it, the pink Flicky inside Gamma seems like the little voice inside his head telling him to do unpleasant things he wouldn't normally do.

Burn them, burn them all!

[redmenace]

Yup!

Oh look, the only incarnation of Sally Acorn that wasn't disgusting.

[Kiljoy]

Oh look, the only incarnation of Sally Acorn that wasn't disgusting.

What's wrong with Sally.

[Badnik Zero]

Sonic Chronicles was great for me. The only complaints I have are that it was too short and too easy, and I like my RPGs hard. But that's not what Sonic is, apparently. I miss the days when the 8-bit Sonic 2 would kick my ass for trying to hang glide or something. That game would just murder a eight year old for trying. I want a Sonic game to challenge me again. Some small balance issues Bioware should've ironed out as well. Also, the music was awful for a Sonic game. But those points aside, the game got me a good 22 hours on my first playthrough and I was very happy. Things like a nice Bioware treatment of the franchise, and the dialogue trees I love make the game unique and fun. Sonic and Bioware were a dream collaboration of mine, actually. This game made that come true. The maps were freaking beautiful if you've ever seen the full art up close. The stylus combat was also fun enough, but I don't really play RPGs for the latest take on turn-based combat, because how many ways can you really mix that up.

And before I forget.

Why are people still saying the heroes wanted Eggman dead? There was no bloodlust on the part of Sonic and friends. They attacked Eggman in his city at what we can assume is the climax moment of their previous adventure. They do this all the time, they chase Eggman to stop his plan. And Eggman's ships go down in flames time and time again, only for him to survive. First, I doubt the heroes believe he's truly dead, because Eggman proves his resilience again and again. We're not lead to believe he's really dead at all before his reveal. And they shouldn't be expected to mourn his disappearance, because they can finally live life in peace. Except ironically for Sonic, who seemed bored since things quieted down. And don't forget that Tails warmed to Eggman the most, even when he participated in the attack on Metropolis and the Egg-bashing in the first couple chapters of dialogue. Think about Tails. He wouldn't want Eggman to come back, but he doesn't mind a reformed Eggman at all. None of this suggests murder.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Badnikz

[Dr. Mechano]

Why are people still saying the heroes wanted Eggman dead? There was no bloodlust on the part of Sonic and friends. They attacked Eggman in his city at what we can assume is the climax moment of their previous adventure. They do this all the time, they chase Eggman to stop his plan. And Eggman's ships go down in flames time and time again, only for him to survive. First, I doubt the heroes believe he's truly dead, because Eggman proves his resilience again and again. We're not lead to believe he's really dead at all before his reveal. And they shouldn't be expected to mourn his disappearance, because they can finally live life in peace. Except ironically for Sonic, who seemed bored since things quieted down. And don't forget that Tails warmed to Eggman the most, even when he participated in the attack on Metropolis and the Egg-bashing in the first couple chapters of dialogue. Think about Tails. He wouldn't want Eggman to come back, but he doesn't mind a reformed Eggman at all. None of this suggests murder.

Except Bioware themselves called this a "preemptive strike" on Eggman in the game's promotional materials, meaning it was not in response to his schemes, but an unprovoked attack on Eggman when he wasn't even doing anything.

Then later, when signs appear that Eggman might have survived the crash, Tails and Amy are horrified, and express clearly that they hope he did not in fact survive. I know Eggman's a bad guy, but wishing death upon the man seems harsh for the Sega versions of the heroes, an idealistic bunch of good guys who've even teamed up with the doctor on numerous occasions(Wherein he displayed a genuinely honorable side during his truces with them). In the grittier world of the Archie comics, perhaps, but in the games? It feels very jarring and out of character, to me at least.

...Of course, this game's narration seems to forget that rather casually, as Eggman speaks as though this game is the first time he and Sonic have ever teamed up, strangely. Hm.

Edited July 10, 2009 by El Gran Gordo

[Badnik Zero]

I don't recall it being said it was a preemptive strike, but if it's not in the game I would ignore that, since the promo stuff may not have even been prepared by the writers themselves. Either way, I saw the characters reactions differently.

From the writers' perspective, I think they were trying to introduce an element of drama to Eggman's reveal, for those who really thought he wouldn't appear in the game. He had to be formidable. I think the characters' reaction in wishing Eggman gone is supposed to show us that he could really be fearsome and how the less able heroes (not Sonic) are scared of his return.

Early on in the game we're shown two different perspectives on the story. Sonic remarks that Green Hill was the site of many "good times", a place where he used to have fun. That's the same Sonic from back in the classics, where the player as Sonic was just having a romp in the first level. To Sonic and the player, it's really just a game. Tails on the other hand is more grounded in reality more like Archie, and because he's not superpowered like Sonic, he's more mortal I suppose, and expresses real world concerns about his friends being transformed into animals. It makes Sonic seem a bit callous, but as a superstar hero and player character he's expected to be a bit removed from the happenings of the story. The concerns of the others are there to build the story up, IMO. They're there to take situations seriously, while Sonic likely shrugs worry off.

They did take some liberties with the story by doing so, but it doesn't bother me too much. I've argued that the game could be seen as canon, but I really like to treat it as removed canon, like a possible future story or something that only maybe happened like the Storybook series. References to the SatAM-Archieverse should be ignored as well IMO, because it doesn't impact the overall game. For those who are familiar with all aspects of Sonicdom like us, those scenes are just more fourth wall breaking moments and clever nods to the series' past. For less informed fans they're nostalgia candy, because many people still remember the Sonic of the '90s and would still say Sonic makes his home in Knothole. They attempted to please both crowds here. A few name drops to previous canons shouldn't take away from the enjoyment of the game, because there are some great characterizations in there, or at least I think so. So much detail is in there, and this is just a part of it.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Badnikz