I can't be bothered to care about Sonic anymore.

[Jack / Joker]

After Generations, I felt like every time I heard something Sonic-related, it disappointed me. Lost World disappointed me, the designs for Boom disappointed me, and the directions they're taking with Boom are, yeah, disappointing. When something disappoints you so constantly, eventually you stop getting your hopes up in the first place.

 

I like you guys and I intend to stay here, I'll always hold a special place in my heart for Knuckles (how I remember him, anyway), and in a few years, I can see myself giving the Classics another shot, and probably having fun. That's what I'm going to take from this, the good things, like Dr. Eggman, the music, all that stuff that was, y'know, good. And I guess, I'd rather live in ignorant bliss than constant cynicism about something I'm supposed to be a fan of.

[Kuzu]

I should also note that I have nothing against Sonic as a franchise, but rather who he's run by. I have an extreme dislike for Sonic Team and their inability to stick with one style and just refine it, instead it almost feels like they think "What gimmick can we slap on the series for it to sell". When I see every other major company just taking what they know and refining it, and then Sonic Team's way of doing this, it just irks the fuck out of me. There's no reason for it.

 

It's probably where my interest in Boom comes from, it's a game that isn't developed by Sonic Team so I don't have that dreadful feeling of "This game will have no polish at all". I mean yea, Boom doesn't look all that amazing itself, but it has the benefit of not having a decade of near mediocrity dragging it down.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

Now that I examined myself, I know that for sure I wasn't a Sonic fan I used to be 5-7 years ago. I remember I was hugeeeee SonAmy freak, having my own fan character and all...

 

Is it because as I got older, I've gotten wiser? Or is because Sonic today just sucks? I don't know.

 

Sonic Adventure is like my baby. It's the only Sonic game I've been replaying once in a while. Too bad Adventure 2 is not the sequel I asked for so it was disappointing for me. However if Sega announces Adventure 3 or a game that plays like the Adventure series that is not Sonic '06, I'll jump with joy.

 

Or a similar game to Unleashed, Colors or Generations. The last Sonic game I really enjoyed was believe it or not Sonic Unleashed. Of all games. Don't get me wrong, I hated the Werehog. But the story, the high quality cutscenes, a Sonic game I can complete up to 10 hours instead of 4-5 and you know...what Sonic games have been lacking recently a challenge. I missed all of that.

 

Generations on PC is fantastic too but the crappy story does not make me what to replay it again, no exploration...it was just bare bones IMO. The game is awesome to play once or twice, then you're finished with it. And I can complete the game in 3-4 hours.

 

Games like Black Knight, Secret Rings *shivers*, Chronicles (incomplete story lol), Unleashed with Werehog and Sonic 4 one by one drained me as being a Sonic fan. Sonic '06, while it's a terrible game and wouldn't want to play it again at least I had small amounts of fun with it...from funny glitches to Shadow's roundhouse kick against Silver. Drained me a little this game, but not as much as the ones mentioned in this paragraph.

 

But what made me not care about Sonic even more recently is the 2 year deal with Nintendo. I wouldn't say that situation started it, but it definitely helped. A year ago when this was announced, I planned to never get a Wii U until 2015 at least, therefore I'll be missing out on Lost World and Boom. That's 3 years of me not playing a Sonic game. Of course this will not make me care about Sonic anymore.

 

Lost World is the first ever Sonic game (that isn't Olympics) since the release of Heroes that I haven't bought day 1. All because of the deal. I know I didn't miss anything with Lost World but, this made me open my eyes that Sonic is really going down the toilet and I actually celebrated that I didn't get Lost World after hearing so much crap about it. I didn't get a Wii U to play Sonic (which was the original plan). I got it to play MK 8 and Smash. From now on, I'll not get a Sonic game on release until I hear good things about it.

 

I've taken my attention elsewhere from Sonic.

 

Still though, looking forward to the TV series. That's the only thing that I'm looking forward to that is Sonic.

[8ther]

I find it funny how Sega wishes cater to retro/older Sonic fans with the main series yet if TSS, Sonic Retro and the Sega Forums are any indication, their losing fans because of the current direction.

It's not so much gameplay consistency or me losing interest in Sonic that's throwing me off, it's the tone and direction the series has been taking lately. The last Sonic game i truly enjoyed was Black Knight(yes that game) i bought Generations but it didn't motivate me enough to finish it, i skipped Lost World and probably will end up skipping the 2016 games as well if it turns out to be another Solo Sonic game with a dry plotline. Until Sonic Team can wow me again Sonic Boom may to be the last Sonic game i purchase for a while, so far it seems doing everything i've wanted from Sonic game.

 

 

[Mauro Fonseca]

Don't think I've seen anyone on Retro complain about Sonic Lost World for being Sonic only or saying they're not liking Sonic because of the stories :V Lost World got complaints on gameplay.

[Scar]

The fact that the Sonic franchise holds a place in my heart, will never change.

I grew up on the franchise, and as such I can never truly say that I don't care. Doesn't matter if I say I don't care, the simple fact of the matter is, I do. I'm sure a lot of you feel the same way to some extent.

Every time Sega or Sonic Team do something stupid with the franchise, it hurts. Might not hurt as much as it did before, but somewhere deep down it hurts. If I go on GAF and see people ridiculing the franchise for silly things like the side-cast, and even for valid reasons, like the insanely shitty gameplay as seen in Boom, it stings. Likewise, when I see people on GAF praising the likes of Generations (even if it wasn't perfect), it does make me happy. I feel strangely proud.

Likelihood is, things won't stop feeling like that....

 

Which leads me to a conclusion.

The franchise desperately needs a hiatus. A long Hiatus. 4-5 year long hiatus. Nothing. Not even a spinoff. Terminate the BOOM TV show.  Suspend the comics. Literally nothing from Sonic for a solid 5 years. In that time SEGA and Sonic Team need to figure out what they want out of the franchise, do they want to do it justice, or do they want to kill it off quietly. Go through all of the previous games. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Study the successes and failures from every game. And then pick a direction based off of that, and develop a game. Doesn't have to have a huge budget. Just take those 4 or 5 years to create a game that has been thought through to every detail to make sure stupid decisions haven't been made, and to make sure the gameplay/story/whatever, is polished.

 

To some those 5 years will be torturous. However, to a lot of fans who have grown sick with SEGA's incessant bullshit, will have had the time to breathe. Maybe after that period, if a new game comes out, and is actually fucking good, people who lost interest may start to care again.

 

Right now, I feel like SEGA is drowning the world with Sonic. Two fucking canons. A TV show and game series to match, and Sonic Team's stuff as well? Nope. Too much. There is too much crap going on with Sonic. Too much white noise. There is too much bullshit going on for a lot of people to care. Give the franchise a break, and give the fans and non-fans a chance to breathe.

[ishmael205]

I get exactly what you're saying.

[TearForFear]

I get exactly what you're saying.

 

You're in this community for just a hour and a half and you already don't care about Sonic anymore?

 

Wow, that's a Guinnes World Record.

[Spin Attaxx]

Which leads me to a conclusion.

The franchise desperately needs a hiatus. A long Hiatus. 4-5 year long hiatus. Nothing. Not even a spinoff. Terminate the BOOM TV show.  Suspend the comics. Literally nothing from Sonic for a solid 5 years. In that time SEGA and Sonic Team need to figure out what they want out of the franchise, do they want to do it justice, or do they want to kill it off quietly. Go through all of the previous games. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Study the successes and failures from every game. And then pick a direction based off of that, and develop a game. Doesn't have to have a huge budget. Just take those 4 or 5 years to create a game that has been thought through to every detail to make sure stupid decisions haven't been made, and to make sure the gameplay/story/whatever, is polished.

 

To some those 5 years will be torturous. However, to a lot of fans who have grown sick with SEGA's incessant bullshit, will have had the time to breathe. Maybe after that period, if a new game comes out, and is actually fucking good, people who lost interest may start to care again.

 

Right now, I feel like SEGA is drowning the world with Sonic. Two fucking canons. A TV show and game series to match, and Sonic Team's stuff as well? Nope. Too much. There is too much crap going on with Sonic. Too much white noise. There is too much bullshit going on for a lot of people to care. Give the franchise a break, and give the fans and non-fans a chance to breathe.

To be honest, Sonic's pretty much SEGA's main money maker, and to be honest I think killing EVERYTHING Sonic for 4-5 years is an absolutely horrible idea - for SEGA (who'd likely have a sinkhole drilled into their bank), for Archie (who'll lose what's likely their best selling comic), for the fans (who are pissed off that they have literally nothing Sonic related to look forward to, not even the comics or cartoon), the general public (isn't this one of the reasons Sonic's not as huge anymore to begin with? Dropping out of the public eye between 1994-1998 due to no big games?)...

 

But anyway, my feelings on Sonic thus far are it feels less like shit and more... empty. I enjoyed Lost World, I had little problem with its story (aside from the rather one-note characterisations of the Deadly Six, and I'm still gonna stick up for them no matter what anyone says) and the gameplay was largely "if they just fixed this/changed that/got rid of this, it'll be pretty good".

 

I won't deny, however, that after beating it, I can't muster up the will to replay it. I think my main hope for Sonic is that they manage to nail the parkour gameplay and be more lenient on story and characters and just capture that same "X-Factor" that makes me want to play Sonic 2 and the like even when I've beaten it 30 times.

 

So yeah, hopes for Sonic are mostly optimistic.

 

...

 

Oh yeah, Boom. It's a thing. It exists. I'm not going to pick up the games, but I might give the cartoon a shot.

 

:U

[RobotOmega]

Have a little faith in sega. Their three game deal with nintendo is almost done, (finally!) so I'm expecting an awesome sonic game in 2015 for other consoles. Hopefully I will get my wish...

[StaticMania]

Sonic the Hedgehog interest = Curious enough to want to learn about the upcoming games. Remains strictly into Fan related Sonic stuff. Currently does not care about the actual upcoming games. Ultimately does not care for the future of the franchise. Seeing the things that Sega would do with Sonic is kind of interesting, but I tend to remain indifferent towards the end result anyway. Sonic related discussion is the only other thing that I could've cared about, having some kind of interaction with other fans is one of 2 good things that this series has brought me. This is not a new type of thinking, I treat all franchises with this mindset. Unless the Sonic series does actually die, I see no reason to stop caring entirely because of general curiosity.

[Blue Swallow]

I've loved Sonic all my life and I don't think I'll ever stop loving him.

I don't have any of the current consoles, so I can't play lost world or any of the new games coming out, but I still love playing most of the games this series has to offer. I'm really hoping we get a Taxman and stealth S3&K, and then maybe a new game with the retro engine.

I finally got a subscription to the comics this year and I'm really enjoying them, and I'm looking forward to the boom cartoon. Plus, thanks to YouTube I can watch the cutscenes for games I miss.

There's just a lot of things for me to love about the series. There's the wonderful characters, I don't dislike a single one (well I'm not crazy about the deadly six, except for Zazz, he's okay.) I'll always love the music, it's one of the best things about the series, when ever I start listening to Sonic music I can never stop. There's the cartoons/anime, some of them I'm not to crazy about, but some I love.

Even if Sonic Team doesn't deliver, there' still the comics, (hopefully) the boom cartoon, and fan stuff (there are some really talented fans) I can enjoy. And there's this place which, despite what people want to say about Sonic fans, is awesome, I wish I'd have started posting along time ago.

[KingIgort]

I've loved Sonic all my life and I don't think I'll ever stop loving him.

 

Yup. I may not be a "psycho-fan" (for lack of a better term), I may not think about Sonic every day, but I'll always be a fan of this little blue hedgehog. I have been for literally as long as I can remember (Sonic 2 is my earliest memory, legitimately), and I don't think anything can stop that from being the case.

[Kuzu]

The fact that the Sonic franchise holds a place in my heart, will never change.

I grew up on the franchise, and as such I can never truly say that I don't care. Doesn't matter if I say I don't care, the simple fact of the matter is, I do. I'm sure a lot of you feel the same way to some extent.

Every time Sega or Sonic Team do something stupid with the franchise, it hurts. Might not hurt as much as it did before, but somewhere deep down it hurts. If I go on GAF and see people ridiculing the franchise for silly things like the side-cast, and even for valid reasons, like the insanely shitty gameplay as seen in Boom, it stings. Likewise, when I see people on GAF praising the likes of Generations (even if it wasn't perfect), it does make me happy. I feel strangely proud.

Likelihood is, things won't stop feeling like that....

 

Which leads me to a conclusion.

The franchise desperately needs a hiatus. A long Hiatus. 4-5 year long hiatus. Nothing. Not even a spinoff. Terminate the BOOM TV show.  Suspend the comics. Literally nothing from Sonic for a solid 5 years. In that time SEGA and Sonic Team need to figure out what they want out of the franchise, do they want to do it justice, or do they want to kill it off quietly. Go through all of the previous games. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Study the successes and failures from every game. And then pick a direction based off of that, and develop a game. Doesn't have to have a huge budget. Just take those 4 or 5 years to create a game that has been thought through to every detail to make sure stupid decisions haven't been made, and to make sure the gameplay/story/whatever, is polished.

 

To some those 5 years will be torturous. However, to a lot of fans who have grown sick with SEGA's incessant bullshit, will have had the time to breathe. Maybe after that period, if a new game comes out, and is actually fucking good, people who lost interest may start to care again.

 

Right now, I feel like SEGA is drowning the world with Sonic. Two fucking canons. A TV show and game series to match, and Sonic Team's stuff as well? Nope. Too much. There is too much crap going on with Sonic. Too much white noise. There is too much bullshit going on for a lot of people to care. Give the franchise a break, and give the fans and non-fans a chance to breathe.

 

Ya know, the main series I can understand, but tv shows and comics? How is that productive in any way? You're basically condemning Sonic to 4-5 years of nothing and expect the series to still sell?

[Scar]

Ya know, the main series I can understand, but tv shows and comics? How is that productive in any way? You're basically condemning Sonic to 4-5 years of nothing and expect the series to still sell?

 

 

Perhaps removing everything would be a bit extreme, but the point of this is to reduce exposure. Near enough every single year since 2004 there has been a Sonic game of some kind, released. Only year that didn't happen was 2012, and now it looks like its business as usual. Too much.

The franchise has no pulling power any more. It sells, because kids think Sonic is cool, or parents think the game is bright and cheery enough for their kids. As a brand in the scope of the industry? Its next to worthless, with little more than nostalgia going for it at this point.

 

If anything, the franchise needs to have a period, in which there are no games at all. I mean, a Sonic+All Stars if SEGA are absolutely desperate for money, but nothing more. Just give people a break, and surprise them, cause at this point its just another year, another mediocre to bad Sonic game....

 

Its hardly surprising that even long-term fans are beginning to lose interest.

[Soniman]

But why should Sega halt their most successful IP because a few fans on the internet are disgruntled? If the fans are that jaded wouldnt the choice to give and disown Sonic be up to them and not Sega?

[Kuzu]

Perhaps removing everything would be a bit extreme, but the point of this is to reduce exposure. Near enough every single year since 2004 there has been a Sonic game of some kind, released. Only year that didn't happen was 2012, and now it looks like its business as usual. Too much.

The franchise has no pulling power any more. It sells, because kids think Sonic is cool, or parents think the game is bright and cheery enough for their kids. As a brand in the scope of the industry? Its next to worthless, with little more than nostalgia going for it at this point.

 

If anything, the franchise needs to have a period, in which there are no games at all. I mean, a Sonic+All Stars if SEGA are absolutely desperate for money, but nothing more. Just give people a break, and surprise them, cause at this point its just another year, another mediocre to bad Sonic game....

 

Its hardly surprising that even long-term fans are beginning to lose interest.

 

I wouldn't say it's over exposure, because even the likes of COD still sell despite yearly releases. I'd say it's more of simple demographic change than anything else. Sega is specifically catering only to the younger crowd because they know that's where the money is at, and that there's always kids that are going to buy Sonic games regardless of their quality. 

 

The reason older fans are losing interest is because they just simply do not care for this childish and simplistic approach the series has taken and decided to move onto something else because of it. 

[sonfan1984]

If they give Sonic a 4-5 years hiatus then people are going to just lose interest in Sonic completely. This reminds me how people were back in 2012 when we didn't get a main series game at all. People starting losing interest waiting for SEGA to announce something, crazy rumors keeps popping up every few weeks, this place rapidly grew unpleasant and more cynical everyday, too many Unleashed vs. Colors vs. Generations debates, etc, 

 

As for me I still care about Sonic and I try to approach new Sonic games, cartoons, etc with an open-mind. I liked the recent games. I've enjoyed Unleashed, Colors, Generations, and even Lost World despite some flaws (I personally think people resent for the game is kinda blown way out of proportion) and I'm loving the look of the Boom cartoon. The only thing I'm worried about is Boom the videogame (gameplay-wise) and the upcoming movie. I might not love everything about the franchise but if there's something that interest me then I'll go check it out and I don't let people's cynical attitude get to me. 

[Danj86]

Professor J lives??

 

*ahem*

 

Well, what can I say? Perhaps I too, have lost love for Sonic over the years. I know it's not as much of a hit with me now, then it was when I was a small fry. But I can't say I've out grown platformers and brightly coloured games, because I know it's not true.

 

Disgaea, Hyper Dimensional Neptune, Persona, Legend of Zelda are some other franchises I still enjoy and often also have bright colours and vivid characters. I still enjoy Mario games as much as I used to do, although it does depend on what genre he's stepping into.

I can easily name the things that effected my love of the franchise, and funnily enough, most of them appeared around the same time.

 

(1) The first must've been the loss of Fleetways Sonic The Comic. I was already getting bored with the reprints so I never actually owned the last issue that featured an original story. It saddened and annoyed me how Fleetway ended, still releasing issues but all of them being reprints, except for the cover.

(2) Next was the major disappointment known as Sonic X. (I never actually watched Sonic Underground when it was first on. If I did, then it might've worsened my love of Sonic even further.) At the time, I didn't know that anime based on video games tend to be awful. I was hyped for it and was in for a major fall. While some do argue that the original version is better than the dub, they may be right, but both are still fucking terrible! To have two stories from games I loved, butchered to fit in some useless arsed brat, was insulting!

(3) With that shitty show being mentioned, it must be obvious what comes next. I hated Sonic X with a passion and any reminder that it actually exists also pissed me off. Enter the first major voice cast change. Now I can be reminded of that steaming pile of excrement while playing the games. But with Tails terrible voice from Heroes and the passing of Deem Bristow, I'm not sure what the alternative would've been like.

(4) Shadow The Hedgehog.

(5) Sonic 06.

 

While I did come very close to leaving the franchise behind me, it was actually Secret Rings and the handheld games that kept me around. Then my love would slowly rekindle overtime with games like Black Knight, Unleashed, Colours and Generations. I also enjoyed Lost World and never really let other opinions dictate what I should or shouldn't do.

 

It should also be worth mentioning that my measuring of awfulness has changed because of these past events, so I don't really approach a new title with pessimism. I have a pretty open mind in regards to Sonic Boom, plus I'm freakin' lovin' the dialogue!!

For me to like the Sonic Boom titles, all they need to do one thing. Be better than ShtH or Sonic 06. While for me to love the animated show, it must not have Chris Thorndyke.

If they can both do that, I'll be happy.

 

It does bore me to tears how some would go on and on about needing more speed in his games. What the hell does that even mean?? Despite what some may think, the original 4 games didn't actually feel very fast when playing. They had the right amount of platforming and many different paths to choose from, but I didn't get the sense of vomit inducing speed that these people seem to go on and on about.

When they do put the foot down in games like Colours, Generations, Advance 2 and the day levels of Unleashed, it seemed more like the platfoming takes a step back so speed can be up front. Your often having to guess when or what you need to do in order to not crash or die as you simply don't have time to react. The amount of times I tripped on those small curb like things in the Boost games...sheesh...I didn't have that problem in Lost World.

[Scar]

I wouldn't say it's over exposure, because even the likes of COD still sell despite yearly releases. I'd say it's more of simple demographic change than anything else. Sega is specifically catering only to the younger crowd because they know that's where the money is at, and that there's always kids that are going to buy Sonic games regardless of their quality.

COD and the like sell, but they have a base level of quality. You can complain all you want about shooter saturation, but non of them are actively bad. Not quite the case with Sonic games, which are mediocre at best. And you're right SEGA are targeting mainly kids who don't care about quality. Is that a good thing though?

 

The reason older fans are losing interest is because they just simply do not care for this childish and simplistic approach the series has taken and decided to move onto something else because of it.

 

That is one hell of a sweeping generalisation. I know I'm not losing interest for this reason. There are a hell of a lot of other factors involved.

 

If they give Sonic a 4-5 years hiatus then people are going to just lose interest in Sonic completely. This reminds me how people were back in 2012 when we didn't get a main series game at all. People starting losing interest waiting for SEGA to announce something, crazy rumors keeps popping up every few weeks, this place rapidly grew unpleasant and more cynical everyday, etc,

 

General gaming community isn't really interested in Sonic anyway. Regardless of whether a game turns up every year or not. Main people who push sales beyond the 1 million mark, are fans such as us (I get the feeling that we're on the decline though...posts in this very thread are a testament to this), and kids/parents who don't know any better.

 

As for the rumors and people "losing interest" or generally getting antsy. They were mostly fans. Frankly, rather impatient fans. SEGA shouldn't care if some fans are miffed by the lack of a Sonic game for a given year. If they bothered to construct each game properly before releasing one every year, with questionable quality, Sonic wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. 

People talk a lot about seeing a Nintendo developed Sonic game, well Nintendo probably wouldn't release a main-line 3D Sonic game every goddamn year, they'd give it 2-3 years maybe more between each instalment and make sure the quality is up to scratch.

[sonfan1984]

People talk a lot about seeing a Nintendo developed Sonic game, well Nintendo probably wouldn't release a main-line 3D Sonic game every goddamn year, they'd give it 2-3 years maybe more between each instalment and make sure the quality is up to scratch.

 

Isn't that basically what SEGA do anyway? They release a main series 3D Sonic game like every 2 - 3 years and release hand-held games, spin-off games, ports, mobile games, etc in between. Sonic Colors (2010) and Generations (2011) being the only exception cause they came out 1 year apart, I think.

[Kuzu]

COD and the like sell, but they have a base level of quality. You can complain all you want about shooter saturation, but non of them are actively bad. Not quite the case with Sonic games, which are mediocre at best. And you're right SEGA are targeting mainly kids who don't care about quality. Is that a good thing though?

 

 

That is one hell of a sweeping generalization. I know I'm not losing interest for this reason. There are a hell of a lot of other factors involved.

 

The most recent Sonic games, Lost World notwithstanding, have all been met with praise for the most part. So quality isn't really much of an issue because most people will agree the likes of Colors or Generations are at least competent games. I never said them targeting children was a good thing, just pointing out the fact that is their gameplan and has been ever since 2010, and if it makes them money, they're going to continue it regardless of whether we think it's good or not.

 

Maybe, but that's the main one that comes to mind; the biggest problem that people tend to point out is how unpolished the games tend to be, but that comes from their constant shuffling of gameplay styles and never sticking with one for too long.

[Scar]

Isn't that basically what SEGA do anyway? They release a main series 3D Sonic game like every 2 - 3 years and release hand-held games, spin-off games, ports, mobile games, etc in between. Sonic Colors (2010) and Generations (2011) being the only exception cause they came out 1 year apart, I think.

 

2004 - Heroes

2005 - Shadow

2006 - 06

2007 - Secret Rings (Spin-off?)

2008 - Unleashed

2009 - Black Knight (Spin-off?)

2010 - Colours

2011 - Generations

2012 - 

2013 - Lost World

2014 - Boom by Big Red Button

2015 - Unannounced Sonic game by Sonic Team

 

I dunno, that seems like a pretty packed schedule.

[sonfan1984]

2004 - Heroes (main)

2005 - Shadow (main?)

2006 - 06 (main)

2007 - Secret Rings (Spin-off?)

2008 - Unleashed (main)

2009 - Black Knight (Spin-off?)

2010 - Colours (main)

2011 - Generations (main)

2012 - 

2013 - Lost World (main)

2014 - Boom by Big Red Button (spin-off)

2015 - Unannounced Sonic game by Sonic Team

 

I dunno, that seems like a pretty packed schedule.

 

I don't really count Sonic Boom as part of the main series. Shadow could be seen as a main series Sonic game, I'm not really sure. Secret Rings and Black Knight are storybook games. So it still looks like every 2 years we get a main game from Sonic Team.

[Scar]

I don't really count Sonic Boom as part of the main series. Shadow could be seen as a main series Sonic game, I'm not really sure. Secret Rings and Black Knight are storybook games. So it still looks like every 2 years we get a main game from Sonic Team.

Thats not what other people see. The only obvious spin-offs are AST, ASR and ASRT.

And most of the spin-offs aren't particularly good either, which doesn't help perception.

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