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What the fuck IS a Sonic? An essay on design discordance.


Blacklightning

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I dunno about you guys, but I personally am not too hot on the series pulling a full-on regression back to the Adventure era of titles (and, judging the Shadow/Silver images that are being posted, 06 too) as danidado seems to be requesting. I think the series can do much better than those period of games (especially considering 06 was, to put it bluntly, a serial escalation of what was wrong with those games taken to the apex of nadir quality).

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I'm sorry, but those models look like they're fresh off the taffy-pulling machine.

 

Now what other Sonic game had unnaturally lanky models...?

 

"Fresh off the taffy-pulling machine"...Really ? Would you please, kindly give me more elaborate motives on why you dislike models like these, besides saying that they look "too lanky and tall" and resemble '06 ?

 

Because, you know, also Boom has lanky models. But many people (not me, certaintly) seem to have got used to Boom's designs.

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But Boom does more to the characters beyond "let's take *character* and stretch them vertically". And even then I'm not too hot on how tall Sonic looks.

 

These just look too tall. I'm sorry, but that's how it is. They're frankly rather unsightly when their torsos are almost beanpoles and their limbs off the rack. Point is, they look disproportionate. As cartoon hedgehogs, they could stand to look less like basketball mascots doubling as players.

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Boom Sonic's lankiness is a common complaint. And his design is at its worst when that lankiness is emphasized.

I don't like the fur texture either. It looks like something that would be unpleasant to touch. Kinda greasy, maybe.

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no more kid pandering, no more Classic pandering,

 

Huh? No classic games and no kid-oriented games? So who do you want Sonic to 'pander' to? Adventure fans? That's the only demographic you've left open to be appealed to*, and quite frankly, not many people liked how the Adventure era tried really, really hard to be cool. Those wanting an Adventure redux are a smaller group than what floating around Sonic/SEGA forums can lead you to believe, and appealing to a smaller group would be bad for sales, and by extension, would be bad for the IP. Another thing to note is that kids buy games regardless of quality, so actively trying to cut out a consistent source of sales is a stupid move.

 

Also,

 

Am I the only one that finds these models....ugly. Seriously, look at Silver's face...wacko.png...that side mouth with grey lipstick,

 

 I can't speak for anyone else, but I seriously disagree with that point. It doesn't look ugly to me by any stretch.

 

 

--

 

*Other than Sonic R fans, 3D Blast fans, Mean Bean Machine fans, Spinball fans, Chronicles fans, Battle fans and Shuffle fans, but I don't think they have a big representation these days. Unleashed fans are another legit open group, though revisiting boost would be a hard sell after abandoning it for Lost World.

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Huh? No classic games and no kid-oriented games? So who do you want Sonic to 'pander' to? Adventure fans? That's the only demographic you've left open to be appealed to*, and quite frankly, not many people liked how the Adventure era tried really, really hard to be cool. Those wanting an Adventure redux are a smaller group than what floating around Sonic/SEGA forums can lead you to believe, and appealing to a smaller group would be bad for sales, and by extension, would be bad for the IP. Another thing to note is that kids buy games regardless of quality, so actively trying to cut out a consistent source of sales is a stupid move.

 

Also,

 

 

 I can't speak for anyone else, but I seriously disagree with that point. It doesn't look ugly to me by any stretch.

 

 

--

 

*Other than Sonic R fans, 3D Blast fans, Mean Bean Machine fans, Spinball fans, Chronicles fans, Battle fans and Shuffle fans, but I don't think they have a big representation these days. Unleashed fans are another legit open group, though revisiting boost would be a hard sell after abandoning it for Lost World.

 

Since 2010, they did NOTHING ELSE but pandering to Classic fans, and if by their standards appealing to kids is equal to pussify the series to Dora The Explorer level, then they have to stop.

 

"The Adventure Era tried really, really hard to be cool". I never talked about the Adventure Era here, plus, if you're saying this, then you haven't the slightest idea of what made Sonic cool in the early 2000's, since for you, apparently, Adventure Era = ShTH and '06.

 

Last time I checked, the sales of the games since Colors have DROPPED constantly, with Lost World, a Mario Galaxy try-hard, being the less sold and the less popular of "Modern" Games.

 

Sales may not tell if a game is bad or not, but they tell if a game is interesting, cool and wide-demographic targeted. Colors, Generations and Lost World are not. They're niche games for a small portion of fans who thinks they're in majority. Nobody, but these few Sonic "fans", are enjoying these games to the fullest.

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Since 2010, they did NOTHING ELSE but pandering to Classic fans,

Not very well. As a fan, I feel I have yet to be properly serviced.

Sales may  not tell if a game is bad or not, but they tell if a game is interesting, cool and wide-demographic targeted. Colors, Generations and Lost World are not. They're niche games for a small portion of fans who thinks they're in majority. Nobody, but these few Sonic "fans", are enjoying these games to the fullest.

I'd wager Sonic's falling sales has more to do with the series finally exhausting the last of its built-up goodwill and yet still being unable to pull itself together and produce quality games, than because it isn't focusing on whatever demographic you fall into.
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Since 2010, they did NOTHING ELSE but pandering to Classic fans, and if by their standards appealing to kids is equal to pussify the series to Dora The Explorer level, then they have to stop.

 

Sonic Boom panders to Classic fans?

 

 

"The Adventure Era tried really, really hard to be cool". I never talked about the Adventure Era here, plus, if you're saying this, than you haven't the slightest idea of what made Sonic cool in the early 2000's, since for you, apparently, Adventure Era = ShTH and '06.

 

The Adventure era fans were the only ones you didn't say to not 'pander' to, along with my other groups listed. That's why I mentioned it. Also, the Adventure era to me = Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Shadow, and '06. I don't know why I'm explaining that, since it's common knowledge, but I'd like to ask you to stop making me into a strawman to de-value my criticism of your suggestion.

 

Sonic wasn't all that cool in the Adventure era. The dialogue was (most can agree) cringe-inducing, the gameplay was (with the exception of in Shadow) arguably diluted by multiple playstyles, and the story became formulaic.

 

 

 Nobody, but these few Sonic "fans", 

 

You're bordering on No True Scotsman territory here. Who are you to say who is a fan or not?

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Black Knight came out in 2010 and we just had another Mario and Sonic. Those aren't pandering to classic enthusiasts.

 

Also, Sonic games since Heroes have been dropping off in sales overall, which is due in part to both problems of critical reception and the pretty unsolvable problem of the platforming genre not being the juggernaut it once was. So not only are you wrong on that point, but overall it says absolutely nothing about what the best aesthetic state of the franchise is.

 

And finally, why are people in general arguing about demographics where there is nothing but hearsay concerning the state of the Sonic fandom? Seriously, neither side actually has any clout on this point unless you've got some well-researched statistics we've never seen before, so telling Adventure or classic fans their opinions are effectively worth less than someone else's is disrespectful. Finally--

 

Nobody, but these few Sonic "fans", are enjoying these games to the fullest.

 

The high horse displayed here is really fucking obnoxious.

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I'd wager Sonic's falling sales has more to do with the series finally exhausting the last of its built-up goodwill and yet still being unable to pull itself together and produce quality games, than because it isn't focusing on whatever demographic you fall into.

 

You really call those three games "built-up goodwill" ??? Perhaps in a extremely slight way Generations tried, but no. These games were made only out of lazyness and listening to biased critics and "fans" requests (more like, whinings). 

 

What demographic I am ? Anything that came before Colors that looks much more interesting.

 

You can't just give me "good gameplay" if the game itself is an insipid and lack-luster product.

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Can we just skip the steps already and come to the conclusion that danidado wants another (vague as all get out) "Sonic Adventure," and move on? There are only so many times we can have this kind of discussion on these forums before we reach this point. It happens often enough that you can predict it.

 

Seriously, this isn't new. We know there's a good chunk of fans that want "Adventure 3" or something like it. Whether it's in terms of gameplay, design, story or theming. Thing is, there are just as many, if not more, fans out there that would love more than anything to see a good Sonic game on its own merits without having to rely on either demographic pandering or "nostalgia," but hey, heaven forbid that said "good Sonic game" actually implement features that happen to have "nostalgia pandering" in it. 

 

The game will be good regardless of what era it draws its inspiration from. Being based off of the "Adventure" series won't make it any more special than a game based off of the Classic era or whatever the heck they come up with down the road. 

 

And usually, people who want another "Sonic Adventure" never focus on gameplay mechanics or level design, but on story theming and character models and art design. It's so common I really think that they're all part of the same sub-culture. It's beyond frustrating!

 

If a person wants their game to have specific story features and character model designs while glossing over gameplay and level design, (seriously ALL I SAW was complaining about how the models look) then it's apparent that you don't care if the game's good or not, they simply want something made specifically for them. Screw whatever it takes to make a good game.

 

You can't just give me "good gameplay" if the game itself is an insipid and lack-luster product.

 

Riiight on cue

 

A good game will be good regardless if the design and theming fits a particular style. Could a good Sonic game implement the same kind of stuff that the Adventure games did? It could, but it never truly has. That's why they've moved on. SEGA may not understand what made the Classics so good, but at least they're looking in the right general area.

Edited by Indigo Rush
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And finally, why are people in general arguing about demographics where there is nothing but hearsay concerning the state of the Sonic fandom? Seriously, neither side actually has any clout on this point unless you've got some well-researched statistics we've never seen before, so telling Adventure or classic fans their opinions are effectively worth less than someone else's is disrespectful. 

 

Noted. I made an assumption, one that was poorly-founded since the Sonic fanbase is both widespread and varied in opinion. I shouldn't be creating a hierarchy for opinion relevancy, deliberately or not. Sorry if I offended anybody.

 

--

 

 

You really call those three games "built-up goodwill" ??? Perhaps in a extremely slight way Generations tried, but no. These games were made only out of lazyness and listening to biased critics and "fans" requests (more like, whinings). 

 

He means the goodwill generated by the Classics. His point was that, by then (2004), people had realised that Sonic Team weren't creating games with the same level of quality as they once were and they may never again. Hence falling sales since Heroes.

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You really call those three games "built-up goodwill" ???

No? I'm saying that the series accrued goodwill from the Genesis games (and to a lesser extent the Adventures), and after years of falling quality, especially the low point that was Sonic '06, and with the series settling into the mediocre to bad range from then 'till now, fewer people are willing to take a chance on this series.

These games were made only out of lazyness and listening to biased critics and "fans" requests (more like, whinings).

You, on the other hand, are perfectly objective and polite in your analysis and criticisms, of course.
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I seriously think that, as a response to Sonic Boom's redesigns, it would be time for a little renovation for the main canon, not only ditching writers (enough with Pontac and Graff, back with Shiro Maekawa), some voice actors (namely Roger Craig Smith, Kirk Thornton and Cindy Robinson) and current direction trend they're keeping since 2010 (no more kid pandering, no more Classic pandering, no more 2D/3D hybrid gameplay, no more "inspiration" from Mario, no more focus on juvenile humor, no more short games that take 3-4 hours to finish), but also the characters models.

 

Am I the only one that finds these models....ugly. Seriously, look at Silver's face...wacko.png...that side mouth with grey lipstick, and everybody's colors look dull and they look like...smurfs.
 

*snip*

 

Forget the pistol in the last one, but tell me who wouldn't like to see something similar to these amazing models in the next game(s) ?  smile.png

I'd like to point out that the 4Kids VAs had 10 games under their belt (Shadow, Rush, '06, Rivals, Secret Rings, Rush Adventure, Rivals 2, Unleashed, Chronicles and Black Knight) and people only really took a shine by the fifth game. Now, with the new cast have had five (Colours, All-Stars Racing, Generations, Transformed and Lost World). Now people generally took a shine from the start, the only person people complained about being Cindy's performance as Amy and Thornton's performance as Shadow. So no problem there.

 

No more pandering to kids or "classic" fans. You mean the target demographic of kids? That truly makes sense to stop selling games to the target demo...

 

No more hybrid gameplay. Urm, well considering, that's been one of the consistent compliments of the Boost-era, I hardly call that a complaint.

 

No more Mario inspiration. You mean, the thing they did for one game. Lost World. Release last year in 2013. Hardly a "current direction trend they're keeping since 2010".

 

Humour's subjective.

 

No more short games. Considering the longer games haven't generally done well ('06 is about 10+ IIRC, and Unleashed maybe 7+ but I like Unleashed), not sure longer games are a bright choice. Ever hear the phrase "short, but sweet"?

 

I have no reason to hate the models, they're pretty good.

 

Those models you linked? For a guy complaining about side mouth, you sure do like side mouths. And Spin Attax already said about how lanky the models are.

 

Since 2010, they did NOTHING ELSE but pandering to Classic fans, and if by their standards appealing to kids is equal to pussify the series to Dora The Explorer level, then they have to stop.

 

"The Adventure Era tried really, really hard to be cool". I never talked about the Adventure Era here, plus, if you're saying this, than you haven't the slightest idea of what made Sonic cool in the early 2000's, since for you, apparently, Adventure Era = ShTH and '06.

 

Last time I checked, the sales of the games since Colors have DROPPED constantly, with Lost World, a Mario Galaxy try-hard, being the less sold and the less popular of "Modern" Games.

 

Sales may  not tell if a game is bad or not, but they tell if a game is interesting, cool and wide-demographic targeted. Colors, Generations and Lost World are not. They're niche games for a small portion of fans who thinks they're in majority. Nobody, but these few Sonic "fans", are enjoying these games to the fullest.

Sonic Colours - 2.8million

Sonic & SEGA All-Stars Racing - 3.72million

Sonic Generations - 3.34million

Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed - 1.48million

Sonic Lost World - 0.54million

 

You really call those three games "built-up goodwill" ??? Perhaps in a extremely slight way Generations tried, but no. These games were made only out of lazyness and listening to biased critics and "fans" requests (more like, whinings). 

 

What demographic I am ? Anything that came before Colors that looks much more interesting.

 

You can't just give me "good gameplay" if the game itself is an insipid and lack-luster product.

Even though Generations is near considering the best 3D Sonic game; with it's great gameplay and poor story?

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Is there a reason we're still entertaining this guy? It's pretty obvious he just wants another Sonic Adventure and doesn't really give a shit about anything else. Can save a lot of headaches by just changing the subject.

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Honestly, the sense of entitlement from sects of the fandom, whether Adventure, Classic, or otherwise, is precisely why I would much rather Sonic Team do the exact opposite of to knock people off their high horse like that.

 

Unfortunately, the problem with that is the risk of creating another Sonic 06...

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I honestly think that SEGA needs a break from sonic as do we fans, We are constantly getting Sonic shoved in our face which in turn makes us tired of the guy and judge his games more harshly ( it certainly doesnt help that SEGA isnt polishing their games ) SEGA has basicaly overused their fields with the same crops, they need to focus on another title for awhile like another jet set radio or another Ip so that our hunger for a new sonic game grows and so that they have time to think about how the next sonic game should work. Ofcourse a realy good sonic game could fix all that too but i honestly think that they are bored and too tired with sonic to make one at the moment :/

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Oh, so that's why I suddenly have 6 notifications about this thread all of a sudden. I'm not going to entertain the clusterfuck that just happened with any specific quotations - only going to say that I'm largely indifferent to what specific style of play Sonic chooses to stick with as long as the environment is important to movement and they actually stick to it and bother to polish it as they go.

Honestly, the sense of entitlement from sects of the fandom, whether Adventure, Classic, or otherwise, is precisely why I would much rather Sonic Team do the exact opposite of to knock people off their high horse like that.

 

Unfortunately, the problem with that is the risk of creating another Sonic 06...

This is a caveat that literally has no right to exist. When people tell a company to knock this kind of pandering bullshit off it should be assumed that they're still going to find a formula that sticks together in the process, not just to change things merely for the sake of it. Do companies like Sonic Team seriously take a statement like that and construe it as "hey guys you should probably stop listening to us because our advice is kind of stupid, but you should go ahead and make a game that's shit anyway"?

 

I think that above all else is what's wrong with the pandering in of itself - fan and developer alike don't seem to actually give a shit whether the feedback will actually damage the critical performance of the games and the goodwill they've been steadily exhuasting, they just assume fulfilling some kind of assumed entitlement is enough to push sales by itself.

I honestly think that SEGA needs a break from sonic as do we fans, We are constantly getting Sonic shoved in our face which in turn makes us tired of the guy and judge his games more harshly ( it certainly doesnt help that SEGA isnt polishing their games ) SEGA has basicaly overused their fields with the same crops, they need to focus on another title for awhile like another jet set radio or another Ip so that our hunger for a new sonic game grows and so that they have time to think about how the next sonic game should work. Ofcourse a realy good sonic game could fix all that too but i honestly think that they are bored and too tired with sonic to make one at the moment :/

Sad as it probably sounds, it's actually kind of a necessary evil on Sega's part because they don't have as many alternate streams of revenue as other companies. Whether that would change when they discover what an advertisement is is anyone's guess, but as it stands right now, they'd probably kill the company if they held off for too long, and other IPs haven't exactly proven to be useful distractions for them otherwise.

 

Also why do people keep spelling Sega with allcaps anyway? I never understood that.

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This is a caveat that literally has no right to exist. When people tell a company to knock this kind of pandering bullshit off it should be assumed that they're still going to find a formula that sticks together in the process, not just to change things merely for the sake of it. Do companies like Sonic Team seriously take a statement like that and construe it as "hey guys you should probably stop listening to us because our advice is kind of stupid, but you should go ahead and make a game that's shit anyway"?

Not exactly.

 

It's more to do with Sonic Team's tendency to think in extremes, leading to the risk of them taking that as do not listen to anything that comes from the fans, risking them doing whatever the hell they want whether people want it or not. And that runs into the other risk of them making bad games due to them lacking focus in their ideas as they go about them in a schizophrenic manner.

 

And given that they can't seem to find a formula that sticks in the process and continue to change things, it doesn't make one very optimistic of what they might do next.

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Oh, so that's why I suddenly have 6 notifications about this thread all of a sudden. I'm not going to entertain the clusterfuck that just happened with any specific quotations - only going to say that I'm largely indifferent to what specific style of play Sonic chooses to stick with as long as the environment is important to movement and they actually stick to it and bother to polish it as they go.

This is a caveat that literally has no right to exist. When people tell a company to knock this kind of pandering bullshit off it should be assumed that they're still going to find a formula that sticks together in the process, not just to change things merely for the sake of it. Do companies like Sonic Team seriously take a statement like that and construe it as "hey guys you should probably stop listening to us because our advice is kind of stupid, but you should go ahead and make a game that's shit anyway"?

 

I think that above all else is what's wrong with the pandering in of itself - fan and developer alike don't seem to actually give a shit whether the feedback will actually damage the critical performance of the games and the goodwill they've been steadily exhuasting, they just assume fulfilling some kind of assumed entitlement is enough to push sales by itself.

Sad as it probably sounds, it's actually kind of a necessary evil on Sega's part because they don't have as many alternate streams of revenue as other companies. Whether that would change when they discover what an advertisement is is anyone's guess, but as it stands right now, they'd probably kill the company if they held off for too long, and other IPs haven't exactly proven to be useful distractions for them otherwise.

 

Also why do people keep spelling Sega with allcaps anyway? I never understood that.

In my case why i spell SEGA with capital letters is because sega in my country means slow, by speeling it with capital letters i can more easily tell them apart. I could always stop if it bothers people, its not like i have to do it :/

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The levels of self-righteousness, disrespect to other's tastes, sense of superiority of thinking, over-sensitivity to any single statement, preconceived jumps to conclusions and the hive-minded tastes in this thread is seriously hideous and disturbing...

 

I just wanted to propose some ideas for how the series should change for the better. I received only showers of posts saying "Everything  from the Adventure Era is baaad. If you like it, you're evil and retarded."

 

I never talked about going back to the Adventure trend. I just wanted to say how much I'm sick of the current trend they're keeping since 2010, on how even Boom is a wrong move and give some suggestions.

 

If people like Sonic being a mediocre series selling only to small portions of the fanbase, the titular character being misrepresented as an immature self-righteous dudebro, the other characters being either his clones (gameplay) or being flanderized idiots (story-wise), and turning the games slowly into Classic rehashes or Mario clones, fine then.

 

Tastes are tastes. Terribly bad tastes, but still tastes.

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Tastes are tastes. Terribly bad tastes, but still tastes.

Dude, let me tell you something. I happen to think that the story from both of the Adventures are pretty well rounded enough to be retooled and revived to be much better told today than they were in the past. I think the writing is just as hit-and-miss today as it was in the past (honestly, a lot less so, but it still has it's ups and downs). I can't say I like how things in this franchise are myself, but I've stuck with it through much worse, during periods that it would make much more sense to abandon it than to stay with it.

 

But comments like that which you just gave net you more opposition than it does allies around here, even among those who might actually agree with you. And the reason why is not only because it's intolerant of other people, but also because it makes people that much more skeptical of your vision, and associate that with past comments you say.

 

You cannot demand or even request sympathy from other people if you refuse to give it in return, nor can you desire people to compromise if you refust to do so as well. And that starts by respecting and tolerating things other people like that you don't. The lesson to be learned here is that there is away to blend both sides interests into something greater and holistic than fighting, shunning, and insulting each others tastes like that, and you won't reach anywhere near the consensus you'd like by mocking people like this.

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Tastes are tastes. Terribly bad tastes, but still tastes.

 

 

The levels of self-righteousness, disrespect to other's tastes, sense of superiority of thinking, over-sensitivity to any single statement, preconceived jumps to conclusions and the hive-minded tastes in this thread is seriously hideous and disturbing...

 

Oh, irony of ironies.

 

But really, if you can't respect the opinions of others, then don't complain when people don't respect your's.  In fact, we'd love it if you would learn to show some respect in the first place, else you'll be given a strike on your account.  Thanks.

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I think that above all else is what's wrong with the pandering in of itself - fan and developer alike don't seem to actually give a shit whether the feedback will actually damage the critical performance of the games and the goodwill they've been steadily exhuasting, they just assume fulfilling some kind of assumed entitlement is enough to push sales by itself.

Sad as it probably sounds, it's actually kind of a necessary evil on Sega's part because they don't have as many alternate streams of revenue as other companies. Whether that would change when they discover what an advertisement is is anyone's guess, but as it stands right now, they'd probably kill the company if they held off for too long, and other IPs haven't exactly proven to be useful distractions for them otherwise.

 

Also why do people keep spelling Sega with allcaps anyway? I never understood that.

 

It doesn't really help that thanks to Sega's recent restructures, they now primarily focus on only their best selling IPs-Sonic, Total War, Football Manager, and Aliens. Digital download and mobile games get second class priority  and everything else is left at the wayside.

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Actually, games with much more modest budgets is exactly what I would've done for the more obscure IPs in Sega's shoes. The problem is that "iPhone game" isn't exactly modest, it's more or less scraping at the bottom of the barrel, and to otherwise AAA-capable developers the whole platform has practically become the poster child for the act of making money without actually giving a shit about the content you're making.

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