Sonic Lost World. Was it that bad?

[Solkia]

"If you fail don't do it at all anymore"

 

Isn't that the mindset that got Sonic the reputation he has now? The boost trilogy was only good because they acknowledged the flaws of Unleashed and Colors and worked through them.

 

Y'know, if at first you don't succeed and all that crap.

[Stritix]

"If you fail don't do it at all anymore"

 

Isn't that the mindset that got Sonic the reputation he has now? The boost trilogy was only good because they acknowledged the flaws of Unleashed and Colors and worked through them.

 

Y'know, if at first you don't succeed and all that crap.

 

Unleashed's day stages had a good reputation to start with. They were praised, whereas the Werehog was negatively received. There was enough to build from. This is a different case. Lost World as a whole was negatively received. It seems unlikely that they will continue with Lost World's direction for the better. If they do I will be very surprised (and disappointed).

[Solkia]

"as a whole"

 

No, it really wasn't, people were actually excited for this game and what they showed off at first looked fun, and to some people is fun.

 

Besides, it doesn't have to be universally praised for it to warrant building upon.

[Kenny_Glover]

"If you fail don't do it at all anymore"

 

Isn't that the mindset that got Sonic the reputation he has now? The boost trilogy was only good because they acknowledged the flaws of Unleashed and Colors and worked through them.

 

Y'know, if at first you don't succeed and all that crap.

 

 Not what I was saying. Sonic Team should have never done it in the first place if it was gonna end up the way it did. Since they did it anyway, though, it would be logical for them to keep and improve on it. But they still shouldn't have ditched the Boost gameplay and changed things up like how they did. The Boost gameplay was a success so they should have stuck with it. "If it ain't broke,don't fix it" is a phrase Sonic Team just doesn't understand. Sonic is in no state to experiment with a bunch of different gameplay styles. We've gotten far too many bad games for that.

[Stritix]

"as a whole"

 

No, it really wasn't, people were actually excited for this game and what they showed off at first looked fun, and to some people is fun.

 

Besides, it doesn't have to be universally praised for it to warrant building upon.

 

"What they showed off" Not what they played. That's completely different. Previews can make any game look good. That's what they are aimed to do. When it finally came out the response was mostly negative to mixed. From a business perspective, there's nothing liked enough to warrant building upon.

 

However from the perspective of a fan, is it really worth building upon? The Sonic series can do so much better. Personally I wouldn't settle for building upon Lost World.

[TearForFear]

Never played the game. I do want to though, as I've gone on a recent Sonic game binge. I've read all the reviews about it and basically most of them are negative. The two that jumped out at me: Gamespot gave it a 5/10 and Metacritic has it at a 63/100. In my opinion those ratings tell me that this game is bad, or mediocre at best.

 

So why? Is this game really that bad? Would love to you your guys' opinions.

 

Also sorry if there has been a topic like this. I couldn't find one, so I decided to make one.

 

I suggest you to read this review

 

http://www.soniczone0.com/blog/index.php?id=109

 

I think it's the most fair review about the game ever written.

 

And about the plot... It has many flaws and some unexpalined holes, but this doesn't mean you can't use your imagination to fill said plot holes

[BabylonWave]

And about the plot... It has many flaws and some unexpalined holes, but this doesn't mean you can't use your imagination to fill said plot holes

Even if i don't like SLW plot at all and the game in general, i liked how you went on a simple solution to tape the holes of that story, imagination. Imagination is great, but i can barely use it on SLW.

[Chaos Incarnate]

For all my mixed impressions on the game, both before and after it released (I have yet to own a Wii U and have only played the 3DS version), I do like how the game handled its sense of story compared to Generations (actually competent written dialogue for the first time in ages and character interactions that are just plain fun to watch), and art direction. Everything is so damn vibrant, and it truly feels like a zany 2D Classic Sonic title translated into 3D, even with its banking on nostalgia fan familiar level tropes. To be truthful with you, I don't really mind, as Sonic Team was already trying to experiment with its new gameplay direction. I LOVE the idea of tubular level design, and the manner alternate routes seemed to be approached are a concept I welcome with open arms.

 

I just wish I could get around to playing it someday, as it's unlikely I'll ever purchase a Wii U. I do admit it reeks of experimentation and doesn't look like it knows what it wants to be, but damned if it doesn't look to be at least an interesting experience.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I recall a Sonic Boom-related article that told us "not as good is not bad" which I think applies tenfold here. Lost World is easily a huge step back from Colors and Generations, but it's in no way a bad game. It's better than Unleashed, and to an extent, Sonic 4. If Lost World had happened before Colors and Generations, everyone would've praised it the same way they do Colors for paving the way out of the dark age. 

[Gabz Girl]

I think the problem with sticking to a formula for too long, like the speed boost, means it can become stale and boring after a while. Even after Sonic Generations, I was starting to get really fed up with the boosting gameplay, so I applaud Sonic Team for trying something different with SLW despite it not being their greatest attempt at trying something new. Now if only they could get more playable characters into the game, starting with Tails...

[azoo]

I think the problem with sticking to a formula for too long, like the speed boost, means it can become stale and boring after a while. Even after Sonic Generations, I was starting to get really fed up with the boosting gameplay, so I applaud Sonic Team for trying something different with SLW despite it not being their greatest attempt at trying something new. Now if only they could get more playable characters into the game, starting with Tails...

Exactly.

The boost gameplay was very limited as to what it could do, and honestly (besides the more well-rounded level design in Generations) we did just about all you could do with it in Unleashed! Everything about that gameplay was about moving through an obstacle course at 300+ mph, and while it was lots of fun and was very well polished compared to what we've been used to, it didn't have much to offer.

 

The main flaw I can point out in Sonic's boost gameplay that justifies why it got old so quick is that the mentality it puts you in is of the opposite to other Sonic gameplay styles. While in games like the classics, the Adventures, the Advances and even (kind of) Lost World, you started from the bottom and built up speed, using your skill to retain it and gain flow in some way or another. In Unleashed, Colors and Gens, the gameplay is where you're given ultra speed from the get-go, making the challenge where you retain the speed while being hurled towards all sorts of obstacles.

 

The former gameplay style has flexibility due to it's nature of starting from a standstill, meaning that accelerating up to speed, regular platforming or even moving at a more moderate pace feels just as natural as moving quickly. The latter, however, is built to make you feel like you should be moving with the boost button held down as much as possible, making where slowing down and platforming not only feels awkward, but feels like punishment for not having quicker reaction times.

 

Because of how the gameplay in those three games make you feel, the level design accommodates for it. Levels are linear, based only around forward movement, and are laden with all kinds of traps and twitch-reaction sections, thinly spaced hallways only meant for strafing through, and any if not all alternate paths end up feeling like split second shortcuts. They're all built for one purpose: speed, and they're not built for anything else because Unleashed's gameplay (having evolved from both Rush and Secret Rings) wanted to capture that feeling, even if it sacrificed other elements in the process for the sake of having a good game in itself.

 

It was a good idea at the time, and it was necessary for revitalizing Sonic. It allowed Sonic Team to try a new approach and get a fresh mindset on how to build levels, and it was polished and taken care of to a degree that made for some good games that ended up bringing Sonic a good image again.

 

But considering how much it holds back from Sonic's original mechanics, how much it holds back from making a proper platformer, how much it restricts the player, and how much it discludes other playable characters, it had to be changed. I don't think Sonic Team just decided "oh let's throw away what works" whenever it's clear to anybody INCLUDING them that you can only do so much with what they made.

[Xenos]

While that may be true throwing literally everything away isn't smart either. Lost World was completely disconnected from anything from the past games even if they could have kept some things worth keeping around.

 

There were plenty of things that could be salvaged from the Generations gameplay and then expanding upon that. First, let's ignore the boost entirely and see what Sonic can do:

 

First, we have the slide. It let's Sonic get through tighter spaces, it's pretty situational, so what if it turned into a roll? You press the button and Sonic tumbles into a roll. Which we all know would let him pick up speed as he goes down hills and slopes. While still letting him get through smaller spaces. This opens up quite a few possibilities.

 

Then there's the stomp. I actually think this is fine the way it is. You could use it as a momentum killer when you need it, or to press buttons quickly, or to stomp down on enemies. I don't think you'd need to change much with this.

 

The homing attack. It would function as it's always had, but perhaps when Sonic hits an enemy, instead of popping straight up, he keeps his momentum after hitting an enemy, pushing him forwards after a successful attack? Would keep the game more fluid, while also keeping Sonic in motion.

 

Now the boost itself...

 

I've done this plenty of times, but why not take a page out of Advance 2's book? The longer you can maintain a certain speed, you will eventually break the sound barrier (indicated ingame with a very satisfying Sonic Boom and a nice sense of speed with some motion blur here and there) and go beyond the regular speed limit of the game for as long as you keep moving at a fast pace. If you slow down too much, in any way, you eventually go back into normal state.

 

The level design can still be built around slopes, curves, and level gimmicks that Sonic is known for without having to make Sonic too slow altogether.

 

And while this is debatable, I feel like the modern games definitely brought along a brilliant visual style that breathed life into Sonic environments.

 

Sure, you still have to change things, but saying they have to change it drastically isn't really the case. Mario 64 might be different from Mario Galaxy, but they still have the same core mechanics of what make 3D Mario work, and honestly the Generations gameplay was definitely something that could have been more.

[azoo]

On the other hand, Sonic Unleashed/Generations threw out everything about the base "Adventure" gameplay, and that gameplay style worked too.

 

And yeah you could always salvage stuff from the boost gameplay too, but I'd like for a game that doesn't feel uncomfortable when moving at any pace, not just fast. Sadv2 had satisfying controls that made the best of both worlds in a way, but it also felt like all you really did was move right and do tricks a lot, which isn't far from the boost gameplay too.

 

Nevertheless I can get behind you on a lot of that.

 

EDIT: Also the art style is something I think should stay regardless of gameplay changing or not. It works too well with Sonic and should stay. No doubt about that.

[StaticMania]

Keeping game-play mechanics from the boost can work perfectly fine...but there aren't many things that they can keep around. The Slide was basically nerfed rolling anyway, turning it back into rolling is just how it should work when pressing a SpinDash button while already in motion. Other things that don't come specifically from the Boost game-play, may not be good to keep if they weren't originally well working.

[Conando]

The Wii U version was pretty good, actually. Not amazing, but certainly nowhere near bad either. I'd say around a...7 or 7.5? It was different for sure, but it worked fairly well despite that, just not in the 3DS version. Anyone who tells you that version is bad is not over dramatizing it, it's just kind fo sloppy. It uses Dimps physics, but it's not designed to use Dimps physics, and the stage designs are fairly uninspired and dull in that one.

[Kenny_Glover]

Exactly.

The boost gameplay was very limited as to what it could do, and honestly (besides the more well-rounded level design in Generations) we did just about all you could do with it in Unleashed! Everything about that gameplay was about moving through an obstacle course at 300+ mph, and while it was lots of fun and was very well polished compared to what we've been used to, it didn't have much to offer.

 

The main flaw I can point out in Sonic's boost gameplay that justifies why it got old so quick is that the mentality it puts you in is of the opposite to other Sonic gameplay styles. While in games like the classics, the Adventures, the Advances and even (kind of) Lost World, you started from the bottom and built up speed, using your skill to retain it and gain flow in some way or another. In Unleashed, Colors and Gens, the gameplay is where you're given ultra speed from the get-go, making the challenge where you retain the speed while being hurled towards all sorts of obstacles.

 

The former gameplay style has flexibility due to it's nature of starting from a standstill, meaning that accelerating up to speed, regular platforming or even moving at a more moderate pace feels just as natural as moving quickly. The latter, however, is built to make you feel like you should be moving with the boost button held down as much as possible, making where slowing down and platforming not only feels awkward, but feels like punishment for not having quicker reaction times.

 

Because of how the gameplay in those three games make you feel, the level design accommodates for it. Levels are linear, based only around forward movement, and are laden with all kinds of traps and twitch-reaction sections, thinly spaced hallways only meant for strafing through, and any if not all alternate paths end up feeling like split second shortcuts. They're all built for one purpose: speed, and they're not built for anything else because Unleashed's gameplay (having evolved from both Rush and Secret Rings) wanted to capture that feeling, even if it sacrificed other elements in the process for the sake of having a good game in itself.

 

It was a good idea at the time, and it was necessary for revitalizing Sonic. It allowed Sonic Team to try a new approach and get a fresh mindset on how to build levels, and it was polished and taken care of to a degree that made for some good games that ended up bringing Sonic a good image again.

 

But considering how much it holds back from Sonic's original mechanics, how much it holds back from making a proper platformer, how much it restricts the player, and how much it discludes other playable characters, it had to be changed. I don't think Sonic Team just decided "oh let's throw away what works" whenever it's clear to anybody INCLUDING them that you can only do so much with what they made.

You make it sound as if the developers can't go any further with the Boost gameplay, which simply isn't true. There's still improvements that should be made to it, which would make for a better experience. If you feel that controlling Sonic was uncomfortable and made platforming awkward in the Boost games, then the developers should have worked to improve controlling Sonic. This can be done while keeping the Boost gameplay.

 

On the other hand, Sonic Unleashed/Generations threw out everything about the base "Adventure" gameplay, and that gameplay style worked too.

They did not throw out everything from the base gameplay from the Sonic Adventure. They were only more speed focused, which did not entirely change up the experience. And no, the base Adventure gameplay (which I assume is Sonic and Shadow's gameplay) was not entirely working. SA1 was plagued by severe camera problems, bad collision detection and glitches. Much of this was improved in SA2, but the problems were still there and it was far from perfect. These problems remained in both Heroes, Shadow's game and Sonic 2006. Sonic Team never perfected the base gameplay from the Adventure games.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

My problem with the Adventure games and Lost World compared to everything else is that they've been able to do good, responsive control for sixteen years now and they only chose to do it in Lost World, but then they added things like the run button or the parkour that nobody uses or cares about.

[azoo]

You make it sound as if the developers can't go any further with the Boost gameplay, which simply isn't true. There's still improvements that should be made to it, which would make for a better experience. If you feel that controlling Sonic was uncomfortable and made platforming awkward in the Boost games, then the developers should have worked to improve controlling Sonic. This can be done while keeping the Boost gameplay.

 

They couldn't really go much further with the boost games than what they did, and I stick to believing that. The game was constructed to be all about moving forward at the highest speed possible. Sure, there's ways you can add little things and whatnot, but would it really change much about what you do and how it feels without it being a different kind of game, or just too convoluted?

 

"Improving controlling Sonic" from making him control awkward at slow speeds would mean changing his gameplay from that style in some extreme way anyways. Sonic moves all slip-slidey and has high running acceleration because it makes boosting, dodging and drifting at high speeds feel smooth and manueverable. You could always change his movements to be tighter at lower speeds and looser at faster ones, but you really don't want the game to feel like it's two different games depending on if you're holding the X button or not, do you?

 

I'm not saying boost gameplay is bad, either. It's fun and if they made another game of it, it'd be fun. But it's also shallow, and the experience it'd offer wouldn't do much for me after the first time or two.

 

 

 

They did not throw out everything from the base gameplay from the Sonic Adventure. They were only more speed focused, which did not entirely change up the experience. And no, the base Adventure gameplay (which I assume is Sonic and Shadow's gameplay) was not entirely working. SA1 was plagued by severe camera problems, bad collision detection and glitches. Much of this was improved in SA2, but the problems were still there and it was far from perfect. These problems remained in both Heroes, Shadow's game and Sonic 2006. Sonic Team never perfected the base gameplay from the Adventure games.

 

SA1 and SA2 also could have it's gameplay style done without camera and collision problems. Those issues are not a result of the gameplay concepts, but of both the (early 3D) era and amount of time it was developed.

 

Sonic Heroes, Shadow and 06 are a deterioration of the original Sonic gameplay that stems from the game designers churning out games faster and with less care, not because the style didn't work or have room for improvement. They forgot what made the mechanics work before, it's not as if the concept itself rotted over time because that doesn't even make any sense.

 

As for it not throwing everything away from Adventure, well if you want to get specific then of course not. Sonic runs, jumps, homing attacks, collects rings, light dashes, goes through loops and some slopes, bops enemies and runs to the end of the stage. I'm not talking those things, I'm talking mechanics. :v

[Tracker_TD]

Eeh.

 

I enjoyed it more than Colours myself. Controls felt more refined to that game. Once you experimented with the parkour it was pretty fun to use, though I will say tutorials were handled abysmally. Music's alright, though slightly forgettable save for a couple of jammin' tracks. Level design was alright, and it was refreshing to see challenge in a Sonic game again. I'll say that at times the difficulty stemmed from bad design, but hell, I actually enjoyed Lava Mountain 2 to some extent, pulling off all those precise flips and stuff perfectly is so satisfying.

 

So yeah. I don't think it was too bad. 2D sections and bosses were the absolute low point for me though. Sonic's jumping felt far too sluggish, especially in 2D.

[Willsy]

I replayed a bit of Lost World yesterday, and I have to say it's not really as bad for me anymore. In fact, I could chalk it up as good. Disappointing, but good. There are some really fun levels in the game, and it's neither too fast nor too slow.

[KyleAB5000]

Well both versions of the game have their problems, however i've only played the 3DS version (which is considered the worse of the two) and.... eh the first few zones are quite fun, but then you hit Tropical Coast and by god does the game get frustrating - levels get really long and the level design becomes exceedingly frustrating... and the special stages.... me god the special stages are bloody awful due to them relying entirely on the 3DS Gyroscope... >.<

having not played the WiiU version i cant tell you what i think of that but yeah... its fun at first then gets annoying...

[GOAT]

Interesting points from all. I apologize for starting a mini flame war, but it actually didn't turn out too bad. Haha

 

So to me it sounds like a pretty decent game but one that couldn't quite live up to the hype it had before its release. A "mixed bag" to quote a few of you. Once I am done replaying SA/SA2 I will grab myself a copy and give it a go. 

[Kenny_Glover]

They couldn't really go much further with the boost games than what they did, and I stick to believing that. The game was constructed to be all about moving forward at the highest speed possible. Sure, there's ways you can add little things and whatnot, but would it really change much about what you do and how it feels without it being a different kind of game, or just too convoluted?

Again, the flaws could be improved, creating a better experience. No, it wouldn't be a different kind of game, but it'd be refined. And they could make even bigger changes while keeping the Boost gameplay. They could add new mechanics, like how they added the Wisps in Colors.

 

"Improving controlling Sonic" from making him control awkward at slow speeds would mean changing his gameplay from that style in some extreme way anyways. Sonic moves all slip-slidey and has high running acceleration because it makes boosting, dodging and drifting at high speeds feel smooth and manueverable. You could always change his movements to be tighter at lower speeds and looser at faster ones, but you really don't want the game to feel like it's two different games depending on if you're holding the X button or not, do you?

Fixing Sonic's default speed wouldn't be a major change, nor would making his movements tighter at default speeds and looser in boosting make you feel like playing two different games.

  

SA1 and SA2 also could have it's gameplay style done without camera and collision problems. Those issues are not a result of the gameplay concepts, but of both the (early 3D) era and amount of time it was developed.

 

Sonic Heroes, Shadow and 06 are a deterioration of the original Sonic gameplay that stems from the game designers churning out games faster and with less care, not because the style didn't work or have room for improvement. They forgot what made the mechanics work before, it's not as if the concept itself rotted over time because that doesn't even make any sense.

 

Wrong. The Sonic Adventure games all strayed far from the originals as they forced several alternate gameplay styles on gamers. Sonic Heroes came closer to the series' roots as the fishing, shooting, treasure hunting and hubs were all gone. Many reviewers noted this and considered it to be Sonic's best 3D game yet. However, the camera and control problems still remained. While Shadow's game also managed to stay closer to the series' roots than the Adventure games (it had no radically different gameplay styles like shooting, fishing and treasure hunting), none of the problems from Heroes were fixed and it added a bad weapon system. Sonic 2006 was a deliberate return to the Sonic Adventure games, which was part of why it was so poorly received. On top of all this, it was a glitchy, unfinished mess.

 

As for it not throwing everything away from Adventure, well if you want to get specific then of course not. Sonic runs, jumps, homing attacks, collects rings, light dashes, goes through loops and some slopes, bops enemies and runs to the end of the stage. I'm not talking those things, I'm talking mechanics. :v

It's not getting specific. The boost gameplay was not that different from Sonic and Shadow's gameplay from the Adventure games. There was only more of an emphasis of speed, and while that did make the games feel different, it wasn't a radical change.

[Candescence]

Lost World was a decent game with great ideas fumbled by Sonic Team's seeming paranoia that a single core gameplay won't keep the audience's interest for the whole game. Which is utter hogwash unless the gameplay is boring, but still. It's the same issue that plagued nearly every Sonic Team-made game since Sonic Adventure started the trend, which caused people to mistake the problem as "Sonic's shitty friends", and once Sonic Team bowed to pressure and made things Sonic-only for Unleashed, they simply used other means of sating their irrational paranoia.

 

Though, frankly, the last three games before Lost World was somewhat justified in doing so, because the Boost style simply can't carry an entire game by itself, and that's not to mention their other problems. Unleashed was a bad game, simply put. Colours was better but had its own issues. Generations was the best of the lot, but it had nowhere else to go, and the fact that the classic gameplay, as flawed in implementation as it was, shat all over the boost gameplay speaks volumes.

 

I'm in agreement with Azookara, the Boost gameplay is inherently inflexible, modifying it would require turning it into a totally different beast altogether, not to mention it's nothing like the Adventure games. Sonic Team must've realized this themselves, otherwise why else would they have completely rehauled the movement mechanics? While the resulting retool wasn't perfect, it had ideas I personally had been hoping for years, including the 'gear shift' and contextual parkour mechanics, partly due to how fun parkour is in Prince of Persia (and by extension Assassin's Creed, but moreso PoP, which is less realistic), and it was much better able to accommodate all sorts of level design. By contrast, the Boost gameplay is built around more linear level design in 3D, especially due to the focus on near-instant speed. Unleashed had it worst, the level design in that game was utter trash with incredibly unfair difficulty in the second half of the game. It was so awful that Black Knight was much more enjoyable by comparison.

[SuperBrandon]

I'm yet to play it so therefore I cannot comment on it being "bad" or not. But, from watching gameplay videos and cutscenes on Youtube I'd say it looks ok but, it could have been better with it's level design, music and storyline.

 

The Deadly Six have potential to be good characters but, they should have been given backstories. Sonic is a jerk and Tails is very much out of character.

 

But, when I get a Wii U I'll give it go as the 3DS version looks pretty poor.