Sonic Lost World. Was it that bad?

[FriendBot]

I'm yet to play it so therefore I cannot comment on it being "bad" or not. But, from watching gameplay videos and cutscenes on Youtube I'd say it looks ok but, it could have been better with it's level design, music and storyline.

 

The Deadly Six have potential to be good characters but, they should have been given backstories. Sonic is a jerk and Tails is very much out of character.

 

But, when I get a Wii U I'll give it go as the 3DS version looks pretty poor.

 

 

Care to explain when Sonic acted like a jerk unless you're talking about how he trashtalks the bad guys, well if a group of people are sucking the life of my home planet, being nice to them would be the last thing I would do and if I had to work with my arch nemesis who has attempted to kill many times before, I wouldn't be nice to them at first.

[Milo]

It's not getting specific. The boost gameplay was not that different from Sonic and Shadow's gameplay from the Adventure games. There was only more of an emphasis of speed, and while that did make the games feel different, it wasn't a radical change.

 

The gameplay of the Adventure series and the Unleashed series, aside from some basic staple rules of the series (Homing Attack, Light Dash, grinding, etc.), are hardly anything alike. The fact that Adventure games are open 3D platformer and Unleashed is (ignoring the Werehog) an on-rails platformer effectively stops the majority of comparisons when it comes to gameplay, but I digress.

 

- The camera usually follows where your player goes in the Adventure games, and only in certain events during the level is fixed in an area that due to a change in camera perspective you have to maneuver your character through. Unleashed's camera during gameplay is usually fixed on the track, and only changes when a transition in level design or perspective occurs or when a miniboss appears during a level.

- The Adventure games didn't have fast-paced gameplay mechanics like the boost, drifting, or the quick-step; likewise Unleashed likewise didn't have slow(er)-paced gameplay mechanics like bouncing, the spindash, and rolling/somersault. Grinding, and flipping on-rails as well as the implementation/use of the light speed dash and the homing attack are also used and controlled considerably different in both gameplay styles.

- Level design. The Adventure games' open 3D platformer gameplay allowed more open and accessible level design. The Adventure games open 3D approach allowed characters to access most areas of the landscape and made much more use of the z axis/height in their level design, resulting in areas that ranged in high and low areas. Unleashed was more of a fixed set of paths layered on top of one another that aside from specific sequences (i.e. the clocktower sequence in Spagonia/Rooftop Run) never changed much in altitude, and generally did not for Sonic to move around much outside of the designated gameplay area with the use of invisible walls. The level design of both games one can argue aren't different in terms of linearity, but in terms of general playspace the Adventure series is the much more open choice of the two.

- Unleashed didn't have hidden gameplay items that increased your gameplay moveset and abilities, nor did the Adventure games have an experience gameplay mechanic that you collected from various in-game actions in order to increase your stats.

- The Adventure games never had segments where the gameplay shifted to a 2D perspective.

- The Adventure games did not have any quick-time events that were used in order to access another path or continue through the level. The jumping on panels in Emerald Coast was probably the closest thing to it, but that was only for once sequence and was handled in a different style than Unleashed's general QTE mechanics.

- The Adventure games didn't have ramps that had the player make use of the trick system (though I think Generations was the only game to do this, I might be wrong though).

- The Adventure games did not have in-game collectables that if collected unlockable bonus content (the Chao Garden was a virtual pet minigame that was available from the start) and/or counted towards your general progress of the story mode. Adventure also didn't have any sort of skill system that could change your character's abilities like Generations did.

- Unleashed did not make any use of any sort of shield powerups like the Adventure games did.

- The majority of the Adventure games' bosses were in fixed arenas, while Unleashed's bosses almost always on auto-pilot/auto-scroll due to the game's on-rails nature in terms of movement (again, ignoring Werehog). The Adventure games also did not have minibosses that were positioned during/near the end of a level like Unleashed did.

[Kenny_Glover]

The gameplay of the Adventure series and the Unleashed series, aside from some basic staple rules of the series (Homing Attack, Light Dash, grinding, etc.), are hardly anything alike. The fact that Adventure games are open 3D platformer and Unleashed is (ignoring the Werehog) an on-rails platformer effectively stops the majority of comparisons when it comes to gameplay, but I digress.

Wrong. Unleashed was never on-rails. On-rails is where you move forward all the time and have no way of stopping. Games like Panzer Dragoon are on-rails. The Tornado minigames from SA1 were on-rails. But not Unleashed.

- The camera usually follows where your player goes in the Adventure games, and only in certain events during the level is fixed in an area that due to a change in camera perspective you have to maneuver your character through. Unleashed's camera during gameplay is usually fixed on the track, and only changes when a transition in level design or perspective occurs or when a miniboss appears during a level.

The camera's didn't make much of a difference.

 

- The Adventure games didn't have fast-paced gameplay mechanics like the boost, drifting, or the quick-step; likewise Unleashed likewise didn't have slow(er)-paced gameplay mechanics like bouncing, the spindash, and rolling/somersault. Grinding, and flipping on-rails as well as the implementation/use of the light speed dash and the homing attack are also used and controlled considerably different in both gameplay styles.

Wrong. The Spin Dash and Boost were essentially the same thing. Especially in SA1, where it was very spammable. Spamming the Spin Dash was essentially the same thing as boosting all the time in Unleashed and Generations. In SA2, the Spin Dash wasn't as spammable, but that game's linear level design strongly replicated the feeling of going through stages at high speeds all the time (that was largely what you'd do in them). And the Bounce and Stomp are essentially the same thing. They have the same purpose: destroying enemies/objects and discovering new pathways. The only difference is that the bounce causes you to, tadah, bounce ... which isn't much of a difference at all. The somersault and sliding are also essentially the same thing. They have the exact same purpose: sliding through tight spaces and destroying objects/enemies.

- Level design. The Adventure games' open 3D platformer gameplay allowed more open and accessible level design. The Adventure games open 3D approach allowed characters to access most areas of the landscape and made much more use of the z axis/height in their level design, resulting in areas that ranged in high and low areas. Unleashed was more of a fixed set of paths layered on top of one another that aside from specific sequences (i.e. the clocktower sequence in Spagonia/Rooftop Run) never changed much in altitude, and generally did not for Sonic to move around much outside of the designated gameplay area with the use of invisible walls. The level design of both games one can argue aren't different in terms of linearity, but in terms of general playspace the Adventure series is the much more open choice of the two.

Actually, yeah, it is true SA1's stages were more open and there was plenty more for players to explore. However, this cannot be said for SA2. The stages were FAR more linear and didn't have much space for players to explore. This was noted by many people. SA2's gameplay essentially was the same thing as Generations and Unleashed. Not as, but still highly speed focused and linear.

 

- Unleashed didn't have hidden gameplay items that increased your gameplay moveset and abilities, nor did the Adventure games have an experience gameplay mechanic that you collected from various in-game actions in order to increase your stats.

Wrong. Sonic Unleashed also had items that would grant Sonic new abilities (the Air Boost Shoes, Light Speed Shoes, Stomping Shoes and Wall Jump Shoes). And that, as well as the experience mechanic, is unrelated to how the gameplay by itself was.

- The Adventure games never had segments where the gameplay shifted to a 2D perspective.

Valid point here.

- The Adventure games did not have any quick-time events that were used in order to access another path or continue through the level. The jumping on panels in Emerald Coast was probably the closest thing to it, but that was only for once sequence and was handled in a different style than Unleashed's general QTE mechanics.

The QTEs weren't a very big part of Unleashed. They showed up frequently, but they didn't make the game.

 

- The Adventure games didn't have ramps that had the player make use of the trick system (though I think Generations was the only game to do this, I might be wrong though).

Wrong. SA2 had a trick system. You could perform tricks on poles, ramps and rails. And in Unleashed, you did tricks after completing QTEs. It wasn't like how you could perform multiple tricks in mid air after going through those floating rainbow and yellow ramps in Generations, but it still was a trick system. And the trick system is minor. It was OPTIONAL to use. 

 

- The Adventure games did not have in-game collectables that if collected unlockable bonus content (the Chao Garden was a virtual pet minigame that was available from the start) and/or counted towards your general progress of the story mode. Adventure also didn't have any sort of skill system that could change your character's abilities like Generations did.

SA1 had in-game emblems that, in the non-Dreamcast version of the game, could unlock Game Gear games and Metal Sonic. And this is unrelated to how the games themselves played. We are talking about the main gameplay: how the action stages played.

 

- Unleashed did not make any use of any sort of shield powerups like the Adventure games did.

The shields were not a big part of the Adventure games. Removing them wouldn't create a real difference at all.

 

The majority of the Adventure games' bosses were in fixed arenas, while Unleashed's bosses almost always on auto-pilot/auto-scroll due to the game's on-rails nature in terms of movement (again, ignoring Werehog). The Adventure games also did not have minibosses that were positioned during/near the end of a level like Unleashed did.

This isn't about the bosses. This is about the action stages.

[StaticMania]

Wrong. Unleashed was never on-rails. On-rails is where you move forward all the time and have no way of stopping. Games like Panzer Dragoon are on-rails. The Tornado minigames from SA1 were on-rails. But not Unleashed.

On Rails is being put on a set path that you have to follow and cannot diverge from, forced movement is automation which does not only apply to "On Rails" situations.

Unleashed isn't 100% like that, but a lot of the Level design is just an "On rails" path way that you can't do much other than quick step, drift, or short hop over small obstacles.

 

The camera's didn't make much of a difference.

It actually does quite a bit. In Unleashed having free camera control is useless for Boost game-play since you're suppose to be going through the levels at high speeds and the levels don't require you to move in a way that you may actually need full camera control.

 

Wrong. The Spin Dash and Boost were essentially the same thing. Especially in SA1, where it was very spammable. Spamming the Spin Dash was essentially the same thing as boosting all the time in Unleashed and Generations. In SA2, the Spin Dash wasn't as spammable, but that game's linear level design strongly replicated the feeling of going through stages at high speeds all the time (that was largely what you'd do in them). And the Bounce and Stomp are essentially the same thing. They have the same purpose: destroying enemies/objects and discovering new pathways. The only difference is that the bounce causes you to, tadah, bounce ... which isn't much of a difference at all. The somersault and sliding are also essentially the same thing. They have the exact same purpose: sliding through tight spaces and destroying objects/enemies

Just because the Spin Dash can be used as a Boost doesn't mean that its suppose to be used that way...

Since spamming the button isn't how you're suppose to use the Spin Dash anyway. The Spin Dash is suppose to be used as an immediate burst of speed, not a source of constant speed that makes you invincible which it can't be used as anyway because of how it works.The Boost is a limited/non-limited source of speed that makes you invincible, its made to be that way. The Somersault is a situational forced mechanic that has no real interesting uses and breaks momentum, Sliding is less so with how it can be used for more than just a force section where you go through a small gap.

 

 

Actually, yeah, it is true SA1's stages were more open and there was plenty more for players to explore. However, this cannot be said for SA2. The stages were FAR more linear and didn't have much space for players to explore. This was noted by many people. SA2's gameplay essentially was the same thing as Generations and Unleashed. Not as, but still highly speed focused and linear.

No it isn't...Sa2's level design is made to be linear and faster because for the sake of the story Sonic is just rushing through the levels as fast as he can and the level design is made to match that. You can still go through the levels as fast as you want but the general controls remain the same and that means you can still maneuver through the levels to explore for faster paths and short cuts or even secrets. There's not many things forcing you through the level against your will either.

 

Wrong. Sonic Unleashed also had items that would grant Sonic new abilities (the Air Boost Shoes, Light Speed Shoes, Stomping Shoes and Wall Jump Shoes). And that, as well as the experience mechanic, is unrelated to how the gameplay by itself was.

Hidden Items. There were 2 items that were required in Sa1 and 3 of them in Sa2...but there were still more hidden items that weren't required. In Unleashed ALL items were required to complete the game.

 

The shields were not a big part of the Adventure games. Removing them wouldn't create a real difference at all.

It would create a noticeable difference...especially if there wasn't anything to replace them for the main game-play. It adds something, a small something, but still.

[Milo]

^ I think StaticMania covered most of the rebuttals, so I'll just pick up from where he left off:

 

Actually, yeah, it is true SA1's stages were more open and there was plenty more for players to explore. However, this cannot be said for SA2. The stages were FAR more linear and didn't have much space for players to explore. This was noted by many people. SA2's gameplay essentially was the same thing as Generations and Unleashed. Not as, but still highly speed focused and linear.

 

No it isn't...Sa2's level design is made to be linear and faster because for the sake of the story Sonic is just rushing through the levels as fast as he can and the level design is made to match that. You can still go through the levels as fast as you want but the general controls remain the same and that means you can still maneuver through the levels to explore for faster paths and short cuts or even secrets. There's not many things forcing you through the level against your will either.

 

I don't disagree with Kenny on how SA2 is identical to Unleashed's level design in terms of linearity and not having much playspace in comparison to SA1, but I think Static does has a point regarding how SA2 makes (more) use of alternate paths and secret spaces for the player to explore compared to Unleashed.

 

The QTEs weren't a very big part of Unleashed. They showed up frequently, but they didn't make the game.

 

Whether they make up a huge chunk of the gameplay or not (and as Shadic pointed out with the shields, how much presence they had in gameplay...same goes for Unleashed's shoe powerup abilities you also mentioned) is irrelevant to the fact that Unleashed has them and the Adventure games don't...which is the crux of the argument so far.

 

Wrong. SA2 had a trick system. You could perform tricks on poles, ramps and rails. And in Unleashed, you did tricks after completing QTEs. It wasn't like how you could perform multiple tricks in mid air after going through those floating rainbow and yellow ramps in Generations, but it still was a trick system. And the trick system is minor. It was OPTIONAL to use.

 

Again a fair point and a blunder on my part. Had I remembered this I would had noted that like the Homing Attack and the Light Dash they were in both games but implemented if different fashions.

 

SA1 had in-game emblems that, in the non-Dreamcast version of the game, could unlock Game Gear games and Metal Sonic. And this is unrelated to how the games themselves played. We are talking about the main gameplay: how the action stages played.

 

The collectables for the player as an incentive to unlock additional content outside the main game (and in some cases -could be wrong though- add to your gameplay score). If the collectables didn't have an impact on the gameplay, they wouldn't be in the levels in the first place. 

 

As for SA1 in-game emblems, I personally don't necessarily remember their presence in the game, but I'm not going to dispute what you're saying.

 

This isn't about the bosses. This is about the action stages.

 

Assuming you're referring to the gameplay of Sonic action stages (in which you're right, we're comparing that gameplay to Unleashed's daytime gameplay), I'd still argue bosses are still important. They change the rules of how you complete the level and as a result you have to use what you've learned throughout the game up to that point to defeat them. Similar to the collectables, bosses too would not exist within the levels if they didn't have any impact on the gameplay.

[Pawn]

Although you already have a couple of replies, I'd like to chime in myself...

 

And the Bounce and Stomp are essentially the same thing. They have the same purpose: destroying enemies/objects and discovering new pathways. The only difference is that the bounce causes you to, tadah, bounce ... which isn't much of a difference at all. The somersault and sliding are also essentially the same thing. They have the exact same purpose: sliding through tight spaces and destroying objects/enemies.

 

The Bounce is actually more versatile than the Stomp, in that it allows you to gain height as well. In fact, that was its primary purpose in SA2, so no; they are not the same.

 

Actually, yeah, it is true SA1's stages were more open and there was plenty more for players to explore. However, this cannot be said for SA2. The stages were FAR more linear and didn't have much space for players to explore. This was noted by many people. SA2's gameplay essentially was the same thing as Generations and Unleashed. Not as, but still highly speed focused and linear.

 

SA really does not promote exploration all that much outside of hubs and Casinopolis (which is a very unique stage). It has wider open spaces, yes, but there is rarely any point in looking around and it often all fits on one screen anyway. SA2 actually gives you a reason to look for secret areas for items like the upgrades, Chao containers and animals. Contrary to popular belief, there is actually more reason to explore in SA2's levels than in SA's.

 

As for the Unleashed/Generations comparison; there are moments in SA2 where you need to slow down or divert off the main path to look around, like when you need to find the 'key' in Pyramid Cave or in that room with the gravity switches in Crazy Gadget. Unlike the boost trilogy, SA2's levels contain unique level gimmicks and integrate grind rails more naturally into their design (like the vines in Green Forest), setting each new location apart; while Unleashed and Generations for the most part recycle the same level gimmicks over and over. There are also many more alternate paths in SA2 than there are in at least Unleashed.

 

Wrong. SA2 had a trick system. You could perform tricks on poles, ramps and rails. And in Unleashed, you did tricks after completing QTEs. It wasn't like how you could perform multiple tricks in mid air after going through those floating rainbow and yellow ramps in Generations, but it still was a trick system. And the trick system is minor. It was OPTIONAL to use. 

 

 

The systems are very different. SA2's are performed primarily at the end of grind rails, requiring precise timing and depending on your momentum, you can reach a higher platform. Unleashed's QTEs literally break the pace so they can test your reaction time alone. Generations asks for no skill whatsoever, as you randomly bash the D-pad for no other reason than to gain more boost.

 

Sometimes the way people talk about SA2 on this forum makes me wonder if they've actually played it.

[MParks]

I've only played the demo on the 3DS. Thinkin bout picking it up on the cheap though.

 

The demo really just screamed mediocrity though. I played Sonic Adventure straight after and was just kinda annoyed that they'd gone downhill so much.

[Kenny_Glover]

On Rails is being put on a set path that you have to follow and cannot diverge from, forced movement is automation which does not only apply to "On Rails" situations.

Unleashed isn't 100% like that, but a lot of the Level design is just an "On rails" path way that you can't do much other than quick step, drift, or short hop over small obstacles.

 

I disagree that's what on-rails is, but there's no universal definition to it, so we should probably use another term. You can do more than the Quick Step, Drift and "short hop" in the level design of Unleashed. The level design is just very linear, so you don't have to do much else than run, boost, drift, the quick step, jump and homing attack. That's just like in SA2, where all you had to do was run, somersault, jump and homing attack.

 

 

 

It actually does quite a bit. In Unleashed having free camera control is useless for Boost game-play since you're suppose to be going through the levels at high speeds and the levels don't require you to move in a way that you may actually need full camera control.

 

In Sonic and Shadow's stages from Sonic Adventure 2, all you're supposed to do is proceed at high speeds. Free camera is rarely necessary, and there wasn't really any. You could roam the camera to see your surroundings, but once you move, the camera sets back to default. Which defeats the purpose of free camera control.

 

 

Just because the Spin Dash can be used as a Boost doesn't mean that its suppose to be used that way...

Since spamming the button isn't how you're suppose to use the Spin Dash anyway. The Spin Dash is suppose to be used as an immediate burst of speed, not a source of constant speed that makes you invincible which it can't be used as anyway because of how it works.The Boost is a limited/non-limited source of speed that makes you invincible, its made to be that way. The Somersault is a situational forced mechanic that has no real interesting uses and breaks momentum, Sliding is less so with how it can be used for more than just a force section where you go through a small gap

 

You can't say the Spin Dash isn't "supposed" to do that. Is there some confirmed explanation of how the Spin Dash is supposed to work? Nope. It works like a boost in SA1,  and that's that.  Also, the Boost doesn't make you Invincible; you can still take damage. The somersault and sliding's difference in momentum is very minor and isn't something that makes the Adventure games and Unleashed radically different. Also, the sliding's only real purpose to squeeze tight gaps. You can use it for other things, but only optionally.

 

 

 

No it isn't...Sa2's level design is made to be linear and faster because for the sake of the story Sonic is just rushing through the levels as fast as he can and the level design is made to match that. You can still go through the levels as fast as you want but the general controls remain the same and that means you can still maneuver through the levels to explore for faster paths and short cuts or even secrets. There's not many things forcing you through the level against your will either.

 

Your "explanation" of the reason why SA2's stages are linear is completely irrelevant. The stages were very linear; there's no need to explain why. By your logic, I could say the same about Unleashed's stages. And in Unleashed, you could still manuever through the levels to explore for faster paths, shortcuts and secrets.

 

 

Hidden Items. There were 2 items that were required in Sa1 and 3 of them in Sa2...but there were still more hidden items that weren't required. In Unleashed ALL items were required to complete the game

 

Again, this is irrelevant to how the gameplay was by itself.

 

 

It would create a noticeable difference...especially if there wasn't anything to replace them for the main game-play. It adds something, a small something, but still.

 

No, it wouldn't create a big difference ... at all. The shields were not required at all in the Adventure games. 

 

 

I don't disagree with Kenny on how SA2 is identical to Unleashed's level design in terms of linearity and not having much playspace in comparison to SA1, but I think Static does has a point regarding how SA2 makes (more) use of alternate paths and secret spaces for the player to explore compared to Unleashed.

 

Unleashed had plenty of alternate paths and secret spaces to explore. Even more than SA2. 

 

 

Whether they make up a huge chunk of the gameplay or not (and as Shadic pointed out with the shields, how much presence they had in gameplay...same goes for Unleashed's shoe powerup abilities you also mentioned) is irrelevant to the fact that Unleashed has them and the Adventure games don't...which is the crux of the argument so far.

 

Wrong. Your argument is that the Adventure games and Unleashed were radically different from each other. Using the QTEs doesn't help you much as they weren't a very big part of Unleashed. And the shields and shoe powerups are unrelated.

 

 

The collectables for the player as an incentive to unlock additional content outside the main game (and in some cases -could be wrong though- add to your gameplay score). If the collectables didn't have an impact on the gameplay, they wouldn't be in the levels in the first place.

 

Those collectibles are irrelevant to the argument here. We are talking about JUST Sonic/Shadow's gameplay in the Adventure games and the Daytime stages in Unleashed. This does not involve the collectibles.

 

 

Assuming you're referring to the gameplay of Sonic action stages (in which you're right, we're comparing that gameplay to Unleashed's daytime gameplay), I'd still argue bosses are still important. They change the rules of how you complete the level and as a result you have to use what you've learned throughout the game up to that point to defeat them. Similar to the collectables, bosses too would not exist within the levels if they didn't have any impact on the gameplay.

 

Again, this argument is just about Sonic/Shadow's gameplay and the Daytime stages of Unleashed (probably should have been made clear). The bosses are irrelevant.

 

 

The Bounce is actually more versatile than the Stomp, in that it allows you to gain height as well. In fact, that was its primary purpose in SA2, so no; they are not the same.

 

Minor. Very rarely was the Bounce used for gaining new height. None of this creates a huge difference between the games at all.

 

 

SA really does not promote exploration all that much outside of hubs and Casinopolis (which is a very unique stage). It has wider open spaces, yes, but there is rarely any point in looking around and it often all fits on one screen anyway. SA2 actually gives you a reason to look for secret areas for items like the upgrades, Chao containers and animals. Contrary to popular belief, there is actually more reason to explore in SA2's levels than in SA's.

 

As for the Unleashed/Generations comparison; there are moments in SA2 where you need to slow down or divert off the main path to look around, like when you need to find the 'key' in Pyramid Cave or in that room with the gravity switches in Crazy Gadget. Unlike the boost trilogy, SA2's levels contain unique level gimmicks and integrate grind rails more naturally into their design (like the vines in Green Forest), setting each new location apart; while Unleashed and Generations for the most part recycle the same level gimmicks over and over. There are also many more alternate paths in SA2 than there are in at least Unleashed.

 

What I really meant is that SA1's stages weren't all about holding up and just running. In addition to Casinopolis, you also did more than just run and jump in Ice Cap, Sky Deck, Lost World and Final Egg.

 

Pyramid Cave is only one stage. There weren't divergences from the main path in Crazy Gadget. Even in that gravity room you brought, you were supposed to follow one path.

 

 

The systems are very different. SA2's are performed primarily at the end of grind rails, requiring precise timing and depending on your momentum, you can reach a higher platform. Unleashed's QTEs literally break the pace so they can test your reaction time alone. Generations asks for no skill whatsoever, as you randomly bash the D-pad for no other reason than to gain more boost.

 

Again, the trick systems are still minor as they are optional. No need to talk about them.

[SlickEvan]

So wow. It seems you're really generalizing each game to prove your point Mr... Kenny. As an SA2 enthusiast I will try my best to do this and explain a couple things. The Summersault and the Slide are nothing alike as one is meant to keep pace and act as a reaction time type of mechanic, while the other is merely for getting under small spaces, whether you're moving fast or slow it'll always slow you down to a curl to get under the obstacle and is NOT meant to test your reaction. You are NEVER thrown into one and expected to roll quickly nor are penalized for it. It's also used for combat on shielded enemies but you can not count that if you want.

 

You sir are the one who mentioned tricks being the "same" in each title or at least working the same which they don't. SA2's tricks are merely point bonuses and get you to different paths if available. Unlike Unleashed you do not get prompted at anytime to enter a button sequence to do a trick. They are in no way the same or executed the same.

 

Onto the level design woes. While SA2 is more linear the primary objective was still platforming, more molded around speed like Unleashed but platforming nonetheless while Unleashed ISN'T primarily focused on platforming but rather reactionary commands and quick reflexes and keeping your speed or boost throughout the whole stages. Platforming was in Unleashed but not as much a focus. Sonic Adventure 2 on the other hand was still about the platforming aspect but they wanted you to do it fast! And had a couple of moments where you need or could diverge off the main path. Unleashed is less the same as platforming is broken apart from main gameplay sections and have you stop boosting to perform such for the most part. 

 

Alternate paths: No Unleashed did not have as many alternate paths as it did have "shortcuts" while SA2 and Unleashed are really close in this category there's not a clear distinction between which had more or less as they both were about speed but in different ways.

 

Spin Dash V. Boost. NO these are not alike even considering spamability. Spindash wasn't a constant speed that kept you accelerated as long as you held it down. The whole reason behind spamming it, is that it slows down after time. It IS meant as a burst of speed and does such. And not only does it slow down but when performing it, it grinds you to a halt which only isn't noticeable when you immediately let go of the charge which if done incorrectly can lead into an undercharged spindash, while Unleashed is ABOUT keeping a constant boost. It keeps you accelerated because it wants you to react to it's high speed traps and keep your reflexes alert (which isn't bad at all) Spin dash does not keep pushing you along or otherwise keep you accelerating/moving. Bot only that but level design ensues you cut the spindashes at one point or another and even for long a duration. Unlike Unleashed where long segments of not Boosting feels weird because it's the whole point of the stages to blast through them. Hope I explained that well.

 

Bounce V. Stomp. No. I'm sorry but while it can be used as a stomp, it'd be a really ineffective one unless you are trying to speed run, which even then it's not used that rarely. The bounce was solely introduced to gain height as right after you get it you must bounce to get higher ground (Yeah you can use the enemies but it's quicker to bounce and intended to bounce) Performing a "Stomp" with bounce is a pretty tricky task in itself also which almost nulls it's use as it.. Also Bounce is used in several occasions where you have to gain ground, a couple levels I can recall are: Metal Harbor M3, City Escape M5, Pyramid Cave M1, Final Rush All Missions, Crazy Gadget. And that's 5/6 right? So yeah. While stomp is solely used for getting to the ground as quick as possible to continue boosting. It doesn't Bounce you whatsoever so how can these even be compared besides speedrunning techniques? 

 

Shields: While they didn't do much it did give you closure for sections you are "scared" of getting hit in and while not the biggest "Oh yeah! I remember those in Adventure/2!" They did protect you from danger which no item in Unleashed does besides boost (I know you're not completely invincible boosting, I know) I'd say that I actually do miss them even if basic. The electric was essentially replaced by Boost's "magnetism" and even normal and invincibility shields felt relevant even if not major parts. Getting protected from enemies that dropped from the sky in mission street while trying to get an A was quite the relief. So major? No. Still adds to the gameplay? Ye even if little. 

 

So Yeah... Too tired to go onward... Maybe tomorrow..... when I'm less tired.

[Milo]

I disagree that's what on-rails is, but there's no universal definition to it, so we should probably use another term. You can do more than the Quick Step, Drift and "short hop" in the level design of Unleashed. The level design is just very linear, so you don't have to do much else than run, boost, drift, the quick step, jump and homing attack. That's just like in SA2, where all you had to do was run, somersault, jump and homing attack.

 

Your "explanation" of the reason why SA2's stages are linear is completely irrelevant. The stages were very linear; there's no need to explain why. By your logic, I could say the same about Unleashed's stages. And in Unleashed, you could still manuever through the levels to explore for faster paths, shortcuts and secrets.

 

Again, this is irrelevant to how the gameplay was by itself.

 

No, it wouldn't create a big difference ... at all. The shields were not required at all in the Adventure games. 

 

Wrong. Your argument is that the Adventure games and Unleashed were radically different from each other. Using the QTEs doesn't help you much as they weren't a very big part of Unleashed. And the shields and shoe powerups are unrelated.

 

Those collectibles are irrelevant to the argument here. We are talking about JUST Sonic/Shadow's gameplay in the Adventure games and the Daytime stages in Unleashed. This does not involve the collectibles.

 

Again, this argument is just about Sonic/Shadow's gameplay and the Daytime stages of Unleashed (probably should have been made clear). The bosses are irrelevant.

 

Minor. Very rarely was the Bounce used for gaining new height. None of this creates a huge difference between the games at all.

 

Again, the trick systems are still minor as they are optional. No need to talk about them.

 

Again I have no idea why you are (now) arguing semantics with what counts as "relevant" to the gameplay, how specific terms are defined, whether this is important to the discussion, and whatnot because not once, prior to my original response to you claiming the Unleashed and Adventure games were identical to each other, was there any discussion on the importance of specific things when it came to Sonic gameplay.

 

The original intent of my post was merely to highlight differences between the Adventure games and Unleashed, and I don't have any intentions on (continuing to) go beyond that, especially when it's further derailing to original intent of the topic -on whether Lost World is a terrible game or not- as it is. Your original response actually had some rebuttals on how things in both games were actually similar and cases where I was genuinely incorrect, but the majority of responses of your latest post are setting definitions and the amount of significance to things that weren't even being disputed in the first place.

[Lady Soniko]

Whilst I definitely had more fun with it than Colours, it's still bad enough to turn me off the franchise with how SEGA are currently approaching this IP, kiddy humour, half assed incomplete stories, different characterization from what I've grown to associate the characters with, I mean I like change don't get me wrong, but it feels like the characters have changed into completely different people. Which from my point of view makes them incredibly dislikeable. Don't get me started on how SLW felt incomplete as a game as well as a decent story, the fact there is no big climax to the ending that neatly tucks everything away is what bothers me most, where are the Zeti? Where did Eggman get the Conch shell? How did he find out about the Zeti and the means to control them? etc. There's just absolutely ridiculously huge plot holes in the story that I find myself grinding my teeth at.

 

Also unnecessary mini games that don't add anything to the gameplay and get tiresome fast, if I need to collect more animals/flickies I'll just replay a fucking level again than play those crappy levels. Where's the accomplishment of beating the hidden worlds? Why does everything feel so...Tacked on? Like SEGA were thinking "we've made these assets we haven't used yet, what do?" "Oh just shove them into the game after the fight with Eggman, but put animal total restrictions on them so the player feels like they need to collect those animals for something substantial and worthy of unlock!"

 

Lol, nope. None of the extra zones add anything to the game, and one of them is a barren land of moving platforms that is honestly...Pointless.

 

I'd rather they just scrapped the hidden zones, or put them earlier in the game as bonus levels during the main game as a wacky break from the normal levels, hell I would have preferred a cutscene viewer or sound test. So to me, SLW is a bad game because of all the bullshit SEGA still refuse to drop with their products, stop offering us a half assed gaming experience, or quite frankly a game that feels incomplete.  

[Kenny_Glover]

So wow. It seems you're really generalizing each game to prove your point Mr... Kenny. As an SA2 enthusiast I will try my best to do this and explain a couple things. The Summersault and the Slide are nothing alike as one is meant to keep pace and act as a reaction time type of mechanic, while the other is merely for getting under small spaces, whether you're moving fast or slow it'll always slow you down to a curl to get under the obstacle and is NOT meant to test your reaction. You are NEVER thrown into one and expected to roll quickly nor are penalized for it. It's also used for combat on shielded enemies but you can not count that if you want.

The somersault and slide are something alike. They're both used for getting through tight gaps. Their difference in that one is used for testing reactions and the other is not is minor.

 

You sir are the one who mentioned tricks being the "same" in each title or at least working the same which they don't. SA2's tricks are merely point bonuses and get you to different paths if available. Unlike Unleashed you do not get prompted at anytime to enter a button sequence to do a trick. They are in no way the same or executed the same.

 

Wrong. I never mentioned them to be the same. All I said was that both SA2 and Unleashed HAD trick systems. I even said they were different. See bolded:

 

Wrong. SA2 had a trick system. You could perform tricks on poles, ramps and rails. And in Unleashed, you did tricks after completing QTEs. It wasn't like how you could perform multiple tricks in mid air after going through those floating rainbow and yellow ramps in Generations, but it still was a trick system. And the trick system is minor. It was OPTIONAL to use.

Never did I say they were the same. And furthermore, the trick systems were OPTIONAL, as I've already said. They don't create much of a difference between the games. No need to still talk about them.

 

Onto the level design woes. While SA2 is more linear the primary objective was still platforming, more molded around speed like Unleashed but platforming nonetheless while Unleashed ISN'T primarily focused on platforming but rather reactionary commands and quick reflexes and keeping your speed or boost throughout the whole stages. Platforming was in Unleashed but not as much a focus. Sonic Adventure 2 on the other hand was still about the platforming aspect but they wanted you to do it fast! And had a couple of moments where you need or could diverge off the main path. Unleashed is less the same as platforming is broken apart from main gameplay sections and have you stop boosting to perform such for the most part.

Wrong. Platforming was not the primary focus in SA2.

 

Alterntate paths: No Unleashed did not have as many alternate paths as it did have "shortcuts" while SA2 and Unleashed are really close in this category there's not a clear distinction between which had more or less as they both were about speed but in different ways.

Disagreed but I'll go see more footage of the game/play them myself before I get back to this. Til then, this part of the argument is at a stalemate.

 

Spin Dash V. Boost. NO these are not alike even considering spamability. Spindash wasn't a constant speed that kept you accelerated as long as you held it down. The whole reason behind spamming it, is that it slows down after time. It IS meant as a burst of speed and does such. And not only does it slow down but when performing it, it grinds you to a halt which only isn't noticeable when you immediately let go of the charge which if done incorrectly can lead into an undercharged spindash, while Unleashed is ABOUT keeping a constant boost. It keeps you accelerated because it wants you to react to it's high speed traps and keep your reflexes alert (which isn't bad at all) Spin dash does not keep pushing you along or otherwise keep you accelerating/moving. Bot only that but level design ensues you cut the spindashes at one point or another and even for long a duration. Unlike Unleashed where long segments of not Boosting feels weird because it's the whole point of the stages to blast through them. Hope I explained that well.

Actually, I only think Sonic Adventure 2 and Unleashed are similar. I don't consider SA1, the game with the spammable Spin Dash, to be part of this anymore, so I'll drop my argument involving the Spin Dash.

 

Bounce V. Stomp. No. I'm sorry but while it can be used as a stomp, it'd be a really ineffective one unless you are trying to speed run, which even then it's not used that rarely. The bounce was solely introduced to gain height as right after you get it you must bounce to get higher ground (Yeah you can use the enemies but it's quicker to bounce and intended to bounce) Performing a "Stomp" with bounce is a pretty tricky task in itself also which almost nulls it's use as it.. Also Bounce is used in several occasions where you have to gain ground, a couple levels I can recall are: Metal Harbor M3, City Escape M5, Pyramid Cave M1, Final Rush All Missions, Crazy Gadget. And that's 5/6 right? So yeah. While stomp is solely used for getting to the ground as quick as possible to continue boosting. It doesn't Bounce you whatsoever so how can these even be compared besides speedrunning techniques?

Even if the Stomp and Bounce are different, that's minor and doesn't create a radical difference between the games. Rarely did you ever have to use them.

 

Shields: While they didn't do much it did give you closure for sections you are "scared" of getting hit in and while not the biggest "Oh yeah! I remember those in Adventure/2!" They did protect you from danger which no item in Unleashed does besides boost (I know you're not completely invincible boosting, I know) I'd say that I actually do miss them even if basic. The electric was essentially replaced by Boost's "magnetism" and even normal and invincibility shields felt relevant even if not major parts. Getting protected from enemies that dropped from the sky in mission street while trying to get an A was quite the relief. So major? No. Still adds to the gameplay? Ye even if little.

The shields were not major at all. Never were they required. You could go through stages without them entirely. No need to bring them up.

 

Again I have no idea why you are (now) arguing semantics with what counts as "relevant" to the gameplay, how specific terms are defined, whether this is important to the discussion, and whatnot because not once, prior to my original response to you claiming the Unleashed and Adventure games were identical to each other, was there any discussion on the importance of specific things when it came to Sonic gameplay and what didn't.

The original intent of my post was merely to highlight differences between the Adventure games and Unleashed, and I don't have any intentions on (continuing to) go beyond that, especially when it's further derailing to original intent of the topic -on whether Lost World is a terrible game or not- as it is. Your original response actually had some rebuttals on how things in both games were actually similar and cases where I was genuinely incorrect, but the majority of responses of your latest post are setting definitions and the amount of significance to things that weren't even being disputed in the first place.

Your argument is that SA2 and Unleashed were different to each other. You listed things to back this, but the thing is, if what you listed was minor, it doesn't help your argument much. Minor things do not make these games very different.

[SlickEvan]

Yet they do. What made Unleashed different from Colors besides different levels? Wisp. Minor differences together make a big difference.

 

With that said SA2 and Unleashed are still VERY different. But you keep downplaying how different the aspects listed are by saying "it's minor" so there is no longer a case I want to make against your points. 

[Kenny_Glover]

Correction, what made Unleashed and Colors was the Wisps, more limited boost AND level design in the latter. These things did not make the Colors radically different to Unleashed, but they still made that game not feel like a huge rehash. And they weren't minor in the same sense as the stomp/bounce, somersault/sliding and shields. The stomp/bounce, somersault/sliding and shields were minor. I'm not downplaying them; that's just what they are. They didn't create any radical differences between SA2 and Unleashed.

[Milo]

Your argument is that SA2 and Unleashed were different to each other. You listed things to back this, but the thing is, if what you listed was minor, it doesn't help your argument much. Minor things do not make these games very different.

 

If this is honestly your response, then I genuinely don't think you actually took the time to thoroughly read and think about my previous post.

 

I'm afraid you're just not going to see the point I've been trying to make about your posts. :/

 

---

 

While I understand a lot of the points of critique leveled at this game and agree with many of them, I don't think they are enough to place the game in the ranks of Sonic 06 as some people claim. In terms of comparing it with other games that diverge a lot from established areas of the series, then I guess you can say it's one of the worst offenders. On a technical/objective level though, I'd argue it fits squarely into the mediocrity zone...at least the Wii U version anyway. Judging the reviews and opinion pieces I've read and heard about it, I'd probably be more inclined to agree about the 3DS version of the game, though from what I played of the demo it was pretty serviceable.

[azoo]

Correction, what made Unleashed and Colors was the Wisps, more limited boost AND level design in the latter. These things did not make the Colors radically different to Unleashed, but they still made that game not feel like a huge rehash. 

 

That's right! Unleashed, Colors and Generations aren't radically different, because they're the same gameplay style!

 

And they weren't minor in the same sense as the stomp/bounce, somersault/sliding and shields. The stomp/bounce, somersault/sliding and shields were minor.

 

Those things are not minor, however. They make a game what they are in the same way (if not a bigger way) any other thing is, because they are the main game mechanics.

 

I'm not downplaying them; that's just what they are. They didn't create any radical differences between SA2 and Unleashed.

 

No they're not.

 

You're going out of your way to minimize these things in the sake of 'winning' your argument. There are obvious, massive differences in the gameplay between the classics / Adventures and the boost trilogy that go all the way down to fundamental differences in game design.

 

The fact that you consider Colors and Unleashed different because one has Wisps and the other doesn't just proves that you're only looking at this from a superficial perspective, and even then it doesn't make any sense how you can't see the clear differences between SA2 and Unleashed.

 

Now stop redirecting this argument in never-ending circles, we've got way too off topic.

[StaticMania]

They didn't create any radical differences between SA2 and Unleashed.

 

Yes they did...Sonic Adventure 2 is a slower yet still fast paced platforming Sonic game. It allows you to run fast through levels and it also allows you to do some really basic to not so basic platforming and puzzles to get through the levels. The game's main level design is platforming, when you're not in a safe part of the level going fast, you're doing a lot of platforming which will normally be in the hard, slower part of the level.

 

Sonic Unleashed is a much faster Reaction based Sonic game. Running really fast through the levels is not what you're trying to do, its what you are doing as the game is just testing your reaction times in the levels. The game gives you the ability to dodge obstacles and do some really basic platforming to get through levels. The game's main level design is obstacles that test your reaction a fair bit, if you aren't in a section where you're going fast on automation or through a slower basic platforming section...the game is usually testing you're reaction skills in those very fast boost sections that may or may not be trial and error.

 

Sharing "similar" game-play mechanics do not make the game-play style of each of those games any less different.

[Kenny_Glover]

While I understand a lot of the points of critique leveled at this game and agree with many of them, I don't think they are enough to place the game in the ranks of Sonic 06 as some people claim. In terms of comparing it with other games that diverge a lot from established areas of the series, then I guess you can say it's one of the worst offenders. On a technical/objective level though, I'd argue it fits squarely into the mediocrity zone...at least the Wii U version anyway. Judging the reviews and opinion pieces I've read and heard about it, I'd probably be more inclined to agree about the 3DS version of the game, though from what I played of the demo it was pretty serviceable.

I read your post thoroughly and I think I have an idea as to what your point was. You listed things that you thought created differences between SA2 and Unleashed to debunk my argument that the games weren't very different. But those things you listed WERE minor, so I'm merely letting you know my argument hasn't been debunked like how anybody would do in a debate. If you have no intention to continue this, then simply end your participation now.

 

That's right! Unleashed, Colors and Generations aren't radically different, because they're the same gameplay style!

Wrong. Colors was very different to those other games. Significantly different. And it wasn't just the Wisps. Colors' level design was much less speed based and more platformer-oriented. That is a major difference. No, they weren't the same gameplay style.

 

Those things are not minor, however. They make a game what they are in the same way (if not a bigger way) any other thing is, because they are the main game mechanics.

Wrong. Those things were minor. Rarely did you ever have to use the somersault/slide and bounce/stomp in SA2 and Unleashed. And never did you have to use the shields in SA2. None of these things create massive differences between the games.

 

No they're not.

You're going out of your way to minimize these things in the sake of 'winning' your argument. There are obvious, massive differences in the gameplay between the classics / Adventures and the boost trilogy that go all the way down to fundamental differences in game design.

The fact that you consider Colors and Unleashed different because one has Wisps and the other doesn't just proves that you're only looking at this from a superficial perspective, and even then it doesn't make any sense how you can't see the clear differences between SA2 and Unleashed.

I'm not minimizing these things. They were minor, and I'm only saying they are and backing up my beliefs. And why are you bringing up the "classics" (which I assume to be the Genesis games)? This is only aboutSonic Adventure 2 and Unleashed (and since it played similarly to Unleashed, Generations). The only real difference between those games is that Unleashed is more speed based than SA2. But that alone doesn't make the games radically different, which they aren't.

And I never said Colors and Unleashed were different just because the former has Wisps. I clearly said Colors' more limited boost and level design was what created a significant difference from Unleashed.

 

Now stop redirecting this argument in never-ending circles, we've got way too off topic.

I do not agree with your argument that Unleashed and SA2 were very different, so I responded with my argument. We clearly do not agree and most likely won't ever anytime soon, so it would be wise for us to just agree to disagree. However, do you really expect me to leave the argument as is after you just attempted to debunk my last post and even misinterpreted it to an extent? I do not agree with your statements on these games, so I responded like how anyone would in a debate.

 

Yes they did...Sonic Adventure 2 is a slower yet still fast paced platforming Sonic game. It allows you to run fast through levels and it also allows you to do some really basic to not so basic platforming and puzzles to get through the levels. The game's main level design is platforming, when you're not in a safe part of the level going fast, you're doing a lot of platforming which will normally be in the hard, slower part of the level.

Sonic Unleashed is a much faster Reaction based Sonic game. Running really fast through the levels is not what you're trying to do, its what you are doing as the game is just testing your reaction times in the levels. The game gives you the ability to dodge obstacles and do some really basic platforming to get through levels. The game's main level design is obstacles that test your reaction a fair bit, if you aren't in a section where you're going fast on automation or through a slower basic platforming section...the game is usually testing you're reaction skills in those very fast boost sections that may or may not be trial and error.

Sharing "similar" game-play mechanics do not make the game-play style of each of those games any less different.

Wrong. It's like you're describing a different game with SA2. SA2 was not much of a platformer. It was very speed based and most of the time you were just running around at high speeds. There was occassionally some platforming, but that wasn't at all the main purpose of the game. There weren't even that many puzzles; Pyramid Cave and Crazy Gadget were the only ones to have anything like that. You were right on Unleashed, but that still doesn't mean the game was a radical departure from the gameplay in SA2. The game was just significantly more speed focused, with the player's reactions being tested through dodging obstacles to enforce this. It still was very similar to SA2.

[SlickEvan]

Sigh~ If I can, Can I reply to his argument? If not, I'll leave it be.

 

On note of your post Kenny, you are minimizing major differences between the games to prove your point. I'll leave it at that until I have permission to reply.

[Kenny_Glover]

Sigh~ If I can, Can I reply to his argument? If not, I'll leave it be.

 

On note of your post Kenny, you are minimizing major differences between the games to prove your point. I'll leave it at that until I have permission to reply.

 

What you just did is replying. But it's not clear if we were even told to stop debating so I'll continue until further notified.

 

No, I'm not minimizing anything. You guys are making out the bounce/stomp, somersault/slide and shields to be far bigger than they actually were. You only had to perform the bounce/stomp and somersault/slide occassionally. You never needed to use the shields. The games did not revolve around those things. They were not huge features. If you think they make a huge difference between the games, then you are looking at things superficially.

 

A couple of abilities you rarely (or never) had to use don't make games. SA2 and Unleashed do have major differences, I'll admit. Sonic is slower and doesn't control like a racecar in SA2. Sonic is faster and controls like a racercar in Unleashed. In addition to this, Unleashed plays in 2D and 3D perspectives. SA2 only plays in 3D. These are the only major differences. Both games had very linear level design and for the majority of your time in them you were just speeding through stages at high speeds.

 

I know that last sentence may be rather vague and uninformative but I may go look for footage to support this.

[Adorkable]

Quite a few critics reviewed the game as poor.

 

My advice? Play it for yourself. Form your own opinion.

 

People here will be telling you it was good and bad all day, only you can decide for yourself what you think.

 

-------

 

As for me, I didn't think it was that bad, but it wasn't that good.

 

I think the Sonic Stadium's review of the game was dead-on. It had its down, sure. But it also had its ups!

 

A few notes: there will be a part of two in the story you don't like very much, it's happened to everyone.

 

Also, there's a few unnecessary difficulty spikes in the game, some I did not appreciate.

 

For those who have played, grinding levels anyone?