Sonic Heroes & Shadow the Hedgehog: What Worked and What Didn't

[Komodin]

Greetings and salutations, SSMBers! Today, I would like to discuss with you about these two (somewhat) infamous Sonic games: 

 

  

 

At this point, you’re probably wondering, “Really, Komodin? Why do you want to talk about these games, when there are far better ones like, say, Sonic Labyrinth? No love for Sonic Boom?!” To which, I say, hang on for a minute. Yes, there have been many discussions on these two games in the past, especially in light of games like Sonic Lost World and Sonic Boom. Mainly, they’re usually about how the games don’t quite measure up nowadays, or they never did to begin with. Since this is the 10th Anniversary of Shadow the Hedgehog and we just got past Sonic Heroes’ 10th Anniversary of the previous year, I feel it’s only appropriate to start talking about them again. However, I want to approach this thread with a slightly different objective this time around: 

 

You see, the way I see it is this: barring some especially egregious exceptions, even our most disliked games usually have one or two ideas that were, or could be, executed well. Conversely, even our most loved games have a couple ideas that just don’t work out well--after all, no game is perfect. Today, we’re gonna talk about this in context to Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog: specifically, what ideas worked or could work, and what ideas didn’t work. It doesn’t just have to be gameplay ideas, either--it could be story/plot elements, aesthetics, music, voice acting, overall presentation, even something like in-game dialogue!

 

Allow me to demonstrate with two ideas that, I feel, did and didn’t work with both games:

 

Sonic Heroes

 

What Worked:

 

The Act Structure of the Levels - After the Sonic Adventure games, I thought it was nice how Heroes took some cues from the Classic games with what is essentially a two-act format with its levels. For instance, while Egg Fleet has you storming your way through “Eggman’s” airship fleet, destroying the main ones in the process, Final Fortress involves traversing the simply titanic flagship while contending with some of his most powerful Badniks and hazards such as the rail laser beams and self-destruct switches. In short, they’re two different takes on the “Airborne Aircraft Carrier” tropes that connects them and gives them their own identity in a way. I’m just a stickler for that sort of thing, I guess.

 

What Didn’t:

 

Metal Sonic as the “Big Bad” - While I didn’t mind that Metal Sonic was actually the main villain for a change, I feel that its execution could’ve been better. For starters, they didn’t show a “Batman Cold Open” about how he managed to acquire the ability to copy data, demonstrating his aggravation with always losing to Sonic,  or him overpowering Eggman and taking control of his fleet. I think the story could’ve been better served if they established this context for him so it wouldn’t come so out-of-nowhere. Second, and my chief grievance, was how you don’t really fight him in that new “Neo” form--the moment he reveals himself to the others, he transforms into that rather un-Sonicy dragon beast. They could’ve at least offered a battle between Team Sonic and Neo Metal Sonic as a “Phase 1” to show off what he’s capable of doing with his version of Team Sonic, Shadow and Chaos’ abilities.

 

Shadow the Hedgehog

 

What Worked:

 

Lost Impact and GUN Fortress’s BGM - Perhaps it’s just me, but while I’m not necessarily a fan of the levels themselves, I really quite like the BGMs that play in Lost Impact and GUN Fortress. They’re both rather calm music pieces, contrasting the vast majority of the games. They’re not necessarily happy, but they’re a more subtly somber that really work for their respective levels: Shadow and Maria liberating the Artificial Chaos in the past, and Shadow traversing what is essentially the last Earth stronghold left against the Black Arms. They even fit quite well with Shadow as a character: a more somber and low-key individual versus the more bombastic and energetic Soni. To this day, I feel that the game would’ve been significantly better off if they approached the rest of the level in this fashion.

 

What Didn’t:

 

The Aesthetics of the Game - To this day, I feel that the overall aesthetics of the game was one of its bigger drawbacks. It just comes off as the devs saying that, because we’re dealing with a less optimistic character than Sonic, everything has to be all dark and grungy. It just makes everything look ugly and “tryhard”. It doesn’t help that they retained the bright Heroes character models for this game, which makes them stick out in a particularly bad way. If anything, it should’ve taken more cues from the more futuristic “computer levels” and Ark levels--that way, it could be more distinct from the typical Sonic in a more subtly pleasing and fitting-to-Shadow-as-a-character sort of way.

 

 

All right, with all that said… what are your thoughts, SSMBers? The way you express them doesn’t necessarily have to follow this format, of course: I just did it this way for organization. Be sure to actually elaborate upon your points, too: just posting one-sentence responses is just really lazy and unconducive towards a good discussion.

[DBZHedgy]

I see very frequently that Shadow the Hedgehog is merely pandering to a wider audience, and it's primarily dark and edgy through the entirety of the game, but I find that very unbelievable.

 

Firstly, the Pandering idea.

I can't really understand where this mindset is coming from because saying something in this ballpark implies that Sega/Sonic Team are primarily concerned for the new demographic they're pushing for, but the very game is a big contradiction to that argument. Throughout the game, there are several tropes that have been done in Sonic history, and they make a reappearance in this game once again. There is a wider focus on Sonic gameplay styles than the modern FPS gameplay style. Most of the game is running around, Grabbing rings, going through loop-de-loops, using the homing attack, going really fast, and ect. The most they really do to bring in the new demographic is slap in Shadow's hand, and even that isn't edgy once you realize what the alternative weapons for Shadow are. The OmoChao Gun, an Alien Gun that looks like a toilet seat, A chicken gun that gives you an extra life once you use it all up, I mean, the game practically revel in the silliness of the weapons. I mean, half of the weapons are as big as Shadow's disproportionate body.

 

There's also the fact that the cutscenes and characters don't even concern themselves with the 'super dark' and 'brooding' atmosphere of the game. The first time you meet Sonic, the city's on fire, building's are smashed, and Aliens are rampaging around the city, and yet despite this, Sonic is still the same super cool guy that he normally is. And after completing Sonic's mission, he wants Shadow to have a friendly competition with him. Sonic isn't the only one either, literally all of the characters retain their character traits. Charmy is a spazzy little kid. Tails is a concerned yet child-like smart guy. Rouge is a calm and collected secret agent. The list goes on. It's only expected that Shadow would act as stoic as he usually does. Not a single character acts as if they were implemented into a new installment of Call of Duty.

 

The stages also reflect this argument.

The game revisits old areas, as well as completely random and idiotic places that are completely out of place in any FPS, but yet fits the Sonic theme quite well. In fact most of the stage tropes used in this game are stage concepts that have been used in the past including, but aren't limited to:

• Mad Matrix
• Cryptic Castle
• Circus Park
• Glyphic Canyon &
• Lava Shelter

[Milo]

Heroes's "teamwork" mechanics were pretty good in concept. I liked the idea of being able to use three characters, with each character having their own special abilities. I also liked the idea of being able to "level up" you characters, with them unlocking more abilities. I bet if the game revolved around how to creatively use the characters you had concerning the level environments' gimmicks and level design, we could had gotten a good game out of it.

 

The game primarily using the teamwork mechanics for enemy combat though was pretty crap. It frequently slowed progression to a halt and practically turned getting through the levels into a chore. Especially since the enemies were retooled to have lifebars. Making huge enemies with ludicrously large amounts of HPs just took the tediousness up to eleven.

 

---

 

Shadow the Hedgehog makes use of a branching gameplay structure, with your level progression and objectives determining the gameplay tasks you do. Like the teamwork mechanics, I think it's actually a good idea in concept, though I do think its execution was better handled than Heroes did with its teamwork mechanics. Unlike the teamwork mechanics, I think its incorporation in a Sonic game has a wealth of untapped potential due to how you can change how you progress and finish levels in a variety of ways-even given that speed (and moving as fast as you can from Point A to Point B ) is a primary trait of Sonic games.

 

Shadow using land vehicles in general I think is really, really, dumb-not only because its makes no sense whatsoever from a character ability standpoint (Shadow by himself is already a fast character) and the overall game (still a fast-paced platformer at its core-like if the game was more of a third person shooter of sorts then it would make sense), but also because I think it wasted the opportunity of utilizing Shadow's Chaos Control ability as a means for level transportation via teleportation. Yeah Chaos Control does exist in the game, but its more for transcending large stretches of level design and is restricted as a limit-break power for your hero gauge.

[-blank-]

I can't really comment much on Shadow, as I haven't played much beyond a demo. But as for Heroes;

 

What Worked:

 

The level design and tropes. I really quite enjoy the way the levels look in this game. They look like they'd fit right in the general style of the classic games (aside from being 3D and stuff of course) and I love that they gave us a few level tropes that haven't been used much. Like Hang Castle/Mystic Manstion's haunted area trope. Wish we could get more of those.

 

What Didn't

 

Giving the enemies lifebars. Who thought that was a good idea? They cut off much of the flow a Sonic game should have. Taking time to stop and beat up a plethora of enemies is not something I'm a fan of. I was fine with it in Unleashed's night stages because level increases stay with you the entire game. So level up enough and you can take out enemies pretty damn quickly actually. In Heroes however, level ups reset with each stage, so you're at square one every time you start a new level. Really annoying.

[Blacklightning]

Shadow the Hedgehog makes use of a branching gameplay structure, with your level progression and objectives determining the gameplay tasks you do. Like the teamwork mechanics, I think it's actually a good idea in concept, though I do think its execution was better handled than Heroes did with its teamwork mechanics.

The problem with the branching levels in concept is trying to develop a narrative that can actually support it properly. Unless you put a really, really disproportionate amount of effort into making sure each path through the game connects properly (of which there are literally hundreds, as the ingame listing is eager to prove), you either end up with a game in which pathways ultimately change nothing significant plotwise for the majority of it, or in ShTH's case, a confusing mess of plot threads that either don't connect with one another, abruptly drop for no discernible reason, outright contradict one another and create plotholes, or some combination thereof.

 

The best possible analogue for this approach I can think of is Lylat Wars - what backstory unfolds within the scope of a single mission is usually self-contained, so the broader narrative can be essentially still be summed up as "travel the galaxy and punch Andross in the mouth" even if there's a little more nuance to it than that. It's almost episodic in nature when you think about it. Eggman has a master plan that takes the whole game to see through, but every other stage is him being a horrid little cunt in other smaller ways, whether or not it's pursuant to that greater goal. 

 

And that's the thing with ShTH: it doesn't have a greater goal. Even within the same side of the "morality" tree the outcomes differ wildly for no good reason whatsoever, so there's no unified thread linking everything the player does ingame. The only reason anything ever feels in the slightest bit connected in the first place is because they have a bad habit of starting and finishing most levels by lazily warping Shadow from place to place, and even then they still occasionally call themselves out for it because it doesn't make any sense (no joke, Shadow actually says that verbatim right before Cosmic Fall).

[Milo]

The problem with the branching levels in concept is trying to develop a narrative that can actually support it properly. Unless you put a really, really disproportionate amount of effort into making sure each path through the game connects properly (of which there are literally hundreds, as the ingame listing is eager to prove), you either end up with a game in which pathways ultimately change nothing significant plotwise for the majority of it, or in ShTH's case, a confusing mess of plot threads that either don't connect with one another, abruptly drop for no discernible reason, outright contradict one another and create plotholes, or some combination thereof.

 

Admittedly I wasn't really thinking about the concept from a narrative standpoint though when I made my post, just largely from a level progression and gameplay standpoint (and to briefly touch on this part, your example of Lylat Wars/Starfox as an model is actually how I personally think branching levels could work in the context of Sonic, with inspiration from Sonic CD and Sonic 3&K in terms of the look of the environments and level design -albeit I'm largely talking Sonic 3&K in this aspect).

 

Personally I actually found how the player would access these new routes more to be of a challenge than the narrative structure. The main issue in my opinion is practically what the objectives on how to change level paths / find new levels: you have to find the balance between having objectives that have a significant variety on how you complete the levels while keeping in line with Sonic's playstyle and/or being acceptable breaks from Sonic's gameplay style. Objectives too similar in goals results in playing through the game to completing alternative objectives  more like a chore than it does feel fun. Objectives too different from the core gameplay results in genre roulette as a means to achieve level objects which may be divisive at best (if they are designed half-decently at the very least) or overwhelmingly disliked at worst (if they are terribly designed all around). And woe be unto you if you're game that's guilty of doing both faults, to which I'd say most 3D Sonic games are guilty of this...

 

...to tie this back to the current discussion, I'd say Shadow the Hedgehog is a prominent offender of both issues. The game recycles the "do task X for Y number of times --sometimes in Z length of time--" objective for a majority of its stages as alternative level goals. Heroes meanwhile has the four teams being too similar to each other in moveset and level design to justify playing what's effectively the same game four times over.

 

As for designing branching levels in the context of the narrative structure on top of factoring in the previous two issues...well that would just be the developer going the extra mile in designing their game.

[Blacklightning]

Personally I actually found how the player would access these new routes more to be of a challenge than the narrative structure. The main issue in my opinion is practically what the objectives on how to change level paths / find new levels: you have to find the balance between having objectives that have a significant variety on how you complete the levels while keeping in line with Sonic's playstyle and/or being acceptable breaks from Sonic's gameplay style.

...what's wrong with just having two goal rings?

 

I mean, think about it. Going back to the Lylat Wars example, most of the forks in the path are determined by feats that come fairly naturally for its gameplay style - flying through a bunch of hoops, beating everyone in time to disarm a bomb, derailing a train as opposed to being distracted by the stage boss, stuff like that. It's all stuff that gels well with the existing gameplay and are largely discovered with practice. Compare that with ShTH, which usually inorganically tells you to stop and kill all bar maybe two enemies in the entire stage in a game designed more for running and jumping than outright fighting.

 

Having a second goal ring works hand in hand with the fundementals of tiered level design - whether you take the high road or the low road, there'll be an exit on both, therefore the one you take hinges on your ability to platform and pathfind properly. The "variety", as you put it, need not come in any fashion other than the change in level gimmicks and tropes between one choice or another.

 

 

As for designing branching levels in the context of the narrative structure on top of factoring in the previous two issues...well that would just be the developer going the extra mile in designing their game.

Oh certaintly, I don't deny that. I just think it's a mountain of effort to be putting into something that largely gets underrated most of the time. Though that might just be me seeing people too busy shouting LOL QTEs to appreciate the lengths Heavy Rain went to for it.

[C.J]

I've managed to retrieve my post that I wrote from the old thread that got lost so I'll just go ahead and paste it here.

 

 

SONIC HEROES

 

It's one of those games that I loved as a kid but looking back at it now, it's pretty decent at best and nothing more beyond that. I still have fond memories of the game. I still get enjoyment out of it but over time, I have looked back and noticed some setbacks that I wasn't originally aware of before which has changed my opinion on the game just a bit.

 

WHAT WORKED:

 

The act structure. Similar to the Classic trilogy, it had two acts and a boss fight with various themes. This trope was very nice and provided a lot of enjoyment. There was a lot of variety too which was good. The pair of levels were always connected too which I also liked.The inclusion of alternate pathways (which allowed you to experience parts of various levels differently) and secrets that you could discover in hidden areas was also quite nice.

 

The level design for some levels are really good. The visuals are nicely vibrant and soundtrack is really good! There are a lot of memorable and catchy tracks that really stand out a lot such as Grand Metropolis, Frog Forest and Mystic Mansion. The theme songs for Team Chaotix and Team Dark are also great tracks that I really enjoy listening to very much. Some really good stuff! The opening theme and the final boss tracks are also great!

 

Some of the ingame dialogue and interaction between characters was somewhat nice and made the atmosphere more lively and enjoyable to listen to. There were some nice and memorable liners from characters like Vector and Omega. (e.g "Worthless Consumer Models!"). The references to certain locations and events of past games (e.g Casinopolis, Angel Island, Egg Carrier) that characters like Amy and Knuckles make during gameplay is quite a nice touch.

 

The idea of the team concept (combining and fusing the ablities and strengths of all 3 characters to advance and progress through stages). The level up feature also sounded like a nice idea what with each character's strength increasing in certain phases.

 

I like the fact that the English dialogue is properly lip synced in the cutscenes which also look good. There are also some nice moments in some cutscenes (e.g Sonic thanking Knuckles and Tails for their help in their last cutscene, Charmy mimicking Vector in the Hang Castle ingame scene, Amy encouraging her team in having good spirits, Knuckles taunting Tails about Shadow's reapperance, Rouge showing concerns and sympathy for Shadow in the Frog Forest scene etc). I will admit there is a certain charm to parts of the story that I actually like. These moments were quite nice to watch.

 

The memorable and standout endings/final segments of various levels (with mainly Team Sonic and Team Dark). The rapid chase from 3 spiked circular boulders in Ocean Palace which was very intense. The overflow of lava rising in the energy storage tank room in Power Plant which leads to a frantic and hurried escape to the top of the plant.

 

Being shot out of the cannon in Bullet Station at an extremely rapid speed navigating through various items and obstacles which then leads to you crashing through the base which reveals the goal ring. Frog Forest climaxing with a nice cinematic perspective of you grinding on a vine that continously extends in growth when you grind on it. Lost Jungle concludes with a chase and Ivy swing section that you must use as an advantage to escape the aligator who is chasing you making the climax very intense and insanely panicky!

 

Hang Castle concludes with you running down the castle rapidly while also navigating your way to avoid obstacles in your path. Mystic Mansion ends with an dark, eery and distorted pocket dimension that changes in each formation colour when it comes to selecting a formation switch. Then after completing these formation sections and pressing the switch, you are then transported to the outside of the mansion in a giant reservoir with the Goal Ring placed in the center.

 

Egg Fleet ends with the team destroying the battle ship and there's a brief shot of them flying through the air while the results screen takes place which is very cool. Final Fortress incredibly concludes with a section of intense laser firing on rail and a mechanical version of Eggman's head firing a huge powerful laser that requires a quick grind to avoid getting hit and after pressing on the switch, it makes the base detonate revealing the goal ring in the middle of the wide area which is a pretty awesome way to end a final stage.

The presence of The Chaotix. Their humor and interaction really stands out for me. In terms of gameplay, I also liked Espio's invisibility being used as an advantage to pass through laser gates and other hazards.

 

The 2 player mode is quite enjoyable. While it's a bit of step down from the SA2 multiplayer, I still got some enjoyment from the various modes that were included. The stages were also shortened and had slight changes/variations such as Seaside Hill having a nice sunset which was nice.

 

The Team Blast actions for the teams and the aftermath effects that benefited you even further such as Team Dark's time stop and Team Sonic's "Sonic overdrive" (although mind you, the aftermath attack for Team Sonic didn't always work).

 

WHAT DIDN'T WORK:

 

While there's replay value and more playable characters, having to play the game 4 times was a bit of an overkill. It would have been less of an issue if there was more variety and mix up between the teams. Aside from Team Rose and Team Chaotix having slight distinction in levels, it was essentially you going through the same routine of stages and bosses in the same order which got a bit too repetitive in a way. There were not enough interesting changes or variation when it came to playing the same levels with different teams which was a shame.

 

The controls are rather slippery, especially when it comes to controlling the speed characters. It's really easy for you to slip up and fly off the paths. The special stages are also very finicky and sometimes frustratingly annoying to handle. I also have a gripe with the keys that are required to enter special/bonus stages. The fact that you can easily lose it with a single hit or mistake especially after making so much progress in the stage is rather annoying. Same goes for losing level ups after dying.

 

The tedious and cheap boss design and also the ingame models for the characters. They look almost like stick figures, a bit too plastic and shiny looking too.

 

Switching rails while griding with a speed or ocassionally a power formation character was a bit of an issue at times especially in stages like Rail Canyon. The transition is almost too quick which could sometimes lead to you falling off the rail. I didn't really feel comfortable using them on long rail grinding sections.

 

Team Chaotix's mission based gameplay unfortunately gets worse when progressing through to the later stages. They had some cool sections but the length was a bit too much. It could also be very time consuming if you happened to miss any required items, meaning that you'd have to go all the way back to the beginning of the level and constantly backtrack and this got very tedious especially if you were only missing very few items.

 

It makes the mistake of giving enemies massive amounts of health which was very irritating and annoying. Having to attack many enemies multiple times in the same repetitive way was such a damn chore, especially when you weren't fully leveled up. It got progressively worse in later levels when it came to encountering the more challenging robots such as E-2000, E-2000R, Gold Cameron, Egg Hammer and The Heavy Egg Hammer! (Seriously, FUCK THESE GUYS! I hated them all, especially the Heavy Egg Hammer!)

 

The team gimmick could have really benefited with better execution mainly when it came to switching characters (instead of the erratic switching, they could have taken a different approach of changing characters similar to other games - ala Chronicles/Boom). The homing attack for Sonic and Shadow was a bit unreliable and inconsistent at times. The tornado attack is delayed and not very effective aside from blowing off shields and making enemies temporarily dizzy. The execution of the rocket accel move is also poor. I wish the fly characters had more freedom when it came to moving instead of being restricted to mostly a totem pole state that felt rather slow and clunky. Aside from reaching higher platforms, they aren't very useful in combat until reaching level 2 and 3. While the power characters are effective in strength, their movement can also occasionally be slippery when performing a level 1 punch attack. The fire dunk (Knuckles/Omega) isn't always consistent either as you really have to be precise with the timing of your attacks. The bounce attack for (Vector/Big) is also unreliable at times.

 

I'd praise it for not making the levels too short but unfortunately, at the same time, the majority of levels drag on a bit too long for their own good (Team Rose aside) which sometimes puts me off from going back to replaying certain levels. There are also too many bottomless pits which are frequently placed in many areas which made things even more panicky and risky mainly when it came to navigating characters through narrow platforms.

 

The story and dialogue is quite vague, cheesy and a step down from SA2. There are a few good moments and while there is a certain charm to the story, the good parts are never really used to their full potential. Team Dark and Chaotix had the most potential when it came to their stories. I wish the whole Shadow thing was executed in a better way though. The reaction from Sonic and co seeing Shadow alive out of blue was disappointing. I was expecting a bit of a more surprised reaction from them but instead they don't look too bothered and then just start brawling? Unfortunately it just didn't go anywhere. I mentioned that I liked some of the ingame interaction but unfortunately not all of it. Some of the voice acting is really bad with Tails sadly being the worst case. His voice was awful.

 

In my experience, the light dash didn't always work. When performing the move, I would sometimes end up grabbing one ring and then I'd suddenly miss the rest of the ring trail and plummet to my death. Jumping and light dashing was usually the less risky way for me to perform the action. I never felt safe when preparing to do a light dash on the ground above a pit. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work properly.

 

Having said all this, I still think Sonic Heroes is a pretty decent game that did some things right as well as providing some interesting ideas and aspects that are enjoyable but at the same time, it also has other factors and bad decisions that really let it down which is a bit unfortunate. There's still a certain charm to the story. While it has its setbacks and share of problems, I think it still remains to be a decent game overall.

 

(I'll make a post on Shadow another time).

[Milo]

...what's wrong with just having two goal rings?

 

I mean, think about it. Going back to the Lylat Wars example, most of the forks in the path are determined by feats that come fairly naturally for its gameplay style - flying through a bunch of hoops, beating everyone in time to disarm a bomb, derailing a train as opposed to being distracted by the stage boss, stuff like that. It's all stuff that gels well with the existing gameplay and are largely discovered with practice. Compare that with ShTH, which usually inorganically tells you to stop and kill all bar maybe two enemies in the entire stage in a game designed more for running and jumping than outright fighting.

 

I think I was getting the idea of accessing branching paths for a level mixed up with having multiple goals in a level in general (like in 3D Mario games), so you have my apologies. Speaking of the Star Wolf / bomb-disarming example you mentioned, I do remember some interesting ideas on tweaking the premise of getting to the goal; one idea I remember reading was having Sonic get to a goal before a specific amount of time as a means to reach the alternative path. I think that would be an interesting way to access a different path.

 

Having a second goal ring works hand in hand with the fundementals of tiered level design - whether you take the high road or the low road, there'll be an exit on both, therefore the one you take hinges on your ability to platform and pathfind properly. The "variety", as you put it, need not come in any fashion other than the change in level gimmicks and tropes between one choice or another.

 

Points taken.