Jump to content
Red

General Furry Fandom Thread

Recommended Posts

Disclaimer: this is not meant to go into detail on a particular subject. I don't think anyone who's interested in furries really needs to go into detail as it's pretty obvious what the issue I'm about the describe is about, and why we shouldn't go into detail.

 

Alright, so in short, a friend of mine went to a small paid furry event the other day with dancing, live music, etc. They shared some photos. It looked like a good enough time.

 

But then I noticed the stage setup. Logos, the event name, etc. And then... in the middle of a graphic of a pawpad... the word "Yiff." I was pretty sure that's what it said, so I asked for confirmation... and sure enough, yes, that is what it says.

 

I reacted negatively. While I understand there's a sexual element to the fandom for a lot of people, for just as many people there isn't one. So I don't really like when terms like "Yiff" are given an official standing in some way. It perpetuates the many stereotypes about the fandom as being made up of deviants rather than people who quite simply like anthropomorphic characters.

 

Was I overreacting? Was I legitimately peeved by the use of the word in this way? I thought I'd ask for some thoughts.

Well, I do understand why you'd be unhappy to see that word be advertised as such. I don't really want to take this thread down an unsuitable path, but personally, I don't want the sexual components of the fandom to be given much focus. Like Oggy said, to do so will only perpetuate that negative stereotype so many people have about the furry community. That isn't to say it's wrong for people to have that sexual interest. The fact that such components in the fandom exist isn't the root of my concern here. I just don't feel like it's the appropriate image for us to convey to the wider world. It's truly alienating for a lot of naysayers. Too many outsiders view people in the fandom as sexual deviants, and I don't think it's deserved. There's so much more to it beyond those lurid, salacious and sensational components that rile up the masses, and they shouldn't be pushed to the forefront like we have nothing else to offer. I feel that it's okay for people to have that sexual interest. It's just not the face we should be eager to present. 

Edited by Killtank

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I look on furries on a pop-cultural scale, I find it comparable with, say, Hiphop and Metal.

Both Hiphop and Metal have sexual connotations, while still not being automatically associated with it. The thing that made them dissociated with it is "broad appeal", "authenticity" and "righteousness". In order to dissociate Furries with it's sexual nature while still maintaining it, we should encourage more authenticity in our art. "Vanilla-washing" yiff could be the solution. Less outrageous fantasies and more everyday drama framing the sex in a more digestible way. 

Well, I'd argue that music itself can easily have those sexual connotations. I don't think you can single out hip hop and heavy metal for fostering that interest when pop music so often sells sex appeal to entice a new audience. As somebody who actively enjoys heavy metal, I'm not entirely sure you can even argue that heavy metal promotes sex for the most part unless you consider the glam bands [or cheeky, modern parody glam bands like Steel Panther] prominent in the 1980s, and they haven't been in vogue with anyone, above or under ground, for more than a quarter-century. Personally, I feel like sexual connotations will emerge in almost any fandom, if enough people are involved.

Regardless, I'd say that the furry fandom is more of a niche enclave than that of the hip hop and heavy metal subcultures, and therefore it's imperative to not push that sexual aspect onto people. It only serves to alienate far too many people who have this misconception of the fandom as being rife with sexual deviants. I agree that it's best to dissociate that sexual aspect of the fandom for our public identity while not entirely disregarding it. We should be encouraging more clean art as opposed to the pornography that's often associated by outsiders as our main draw. Like I said before, the latter isn't inherently bad. It's just not what I want to see being directly promoted to the world at large. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Never mind I think it objectively has more of a presence in the fandom than others.

 

Case in point: at a good deal of conventions, you're not allowed to sell adult art at all. At most furcons, you can, provided it is obscured from view and only visible upon request, proper ID checking, etc.

 

There's a clear presence of such a thing in the fandom versus other fandoms for whatever reason, but the key is to make sure that they're not conflated. That's why I disliked the use of the word "Yiff" in the official artwork of that event. It communicates the wrong message to any outsider who sees it.

Edited by Ty the Tasmanian Ogilvie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you have misinterpreted my reply by completely missing the point of both Hiphop and Metal.

Hiphop is more than just the music. It's the amalgamation of Rapping, DJing, Breakdancing and Graffiti. And from the very start, it had sexual connotations, as it was a result of the deterioration of hippie culture into the ghettos in the late 70's. Black people acquired hippie values and practices and started using them. 

Metal came to the same conclusion, as it was also a result of the deterioration of hippie culture. The satanic symbolism prevalent in Metal is sexual by default. Even in later years, as Emo's have turned the sexual sides of Metal into cautionary tales almost worthy of being Christian (looking at you Fall Out Boy), it's still there. And why not include Rob Halford, who got Metal into Leather. Inspiration? Sex Shops, of course!

So can Furries fit into this? Yes, of course!

The problem is the framing, and the intersectional nature of our culture now just makes it worse, as we just can't seem to agree on anything. And as we acquire more and more ironic detachment to it (to actually survive through it), apathy is starting to show up as no one seems to care anymore, which makes way for yellow journalism to get even more power over it, which attracts more actual deviants to it. Dare I say, criminally deviant.

There are hints of people caring, but they seem to be patronizing SJW's who reduce it to "kiddie culture" and actively tries to erase any sign of satire and sexual connotations within it. "It's just a hobby!", "Get over yourselves!", "That could've happened to anyone!", "He's just one of us!". The last one was indeed a comment by a SJW-furry about the gas attack on MidWest FurFest.  

It is a civil rights issue. It's just not as heavy as the other ones. "If you ask another man to set you free, you'll never be free".

Dude, I'm not going to get into a debate with you about the "point" behind either hip hop or heavy metal. That's not really relevant to the discussion at hand. It's odd that you'd feel the need to tell me I don't understand heavy metal when you've gone and talked about emos and Fall Out Boy. Emotive hardcore is a punk subgenre, and one could easily argue that Fall Out Boy isn't even emo but pop rock. Honestly, I have absolutely no idea what you just wrote there. I can't make heads or tails of that sentence. 

Anyway, I don't think the fandom should erase these sexual connotations harbored within the community. I agree with you there if that's what you said. I'm not sure I'd ever go so far as to label it a matter of civil rights unless restrictive laws were being passed. More than anything, it's about prejudice.  We can't help how other people will approach the fandom, but we can do our part to make a good impression. And I feel like we don't do that when we push those adult elements to the forefront of discussion. Those elements don't ultimately need to be entirely discarded, but they shouldn't be pushed onto the masses from the gate. Oggy's right. It's possible to both buy and sell adult art at a furry convention. He's right when he says that these elements have a much bigger presence in our fandom then it does in most others. Unfortunately, far too many outsiders conflate the fandom strictly with sexual deviancy, and it's a stereotype we should work tirelessly to dispel.

 

Edited by Killtank

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason people distance themselves from the sexual connotation of the fandom is because A.) They do not want to be associated with blanket labels of it being nothing but a fetish and either ostracized by society or assaulted by the fandom itself because it is, indeed, just a hobby for them. I personally know a man who has to fursuit in complete secret because his wife refuses to budge on the matter as a result of her preconceived notions, and there are untold examples of people hiding their full names for fear of losing their jobs. I and plenty of others have dealt with non-consensual touching and assault while in suit due to the fact that there are people who sincerely believe that every suit is fair game because "That's what Furry is about," which is a result of the hideous job we've done in defining ourselves and thus allowing every shmuck who thinks purple doggies are cool free reign in the club.

 

and B.) Furry characters are already analogous to children's media (which makes any comparison to music or counter-culture movements that had no previous connotations to children's entertainment beforehand completely disingenuous), meaning the sexual aspect of the fandom is automatically worrying to the overwhelming populous at large that doesn't get it enough to have a nuanced opinion, especially when it's gone to the most logical conclusion before through awful cub shit anyway. That means until changes in the whole social consciousness of the idea of toon animals occur, there is literally no benefit whatsoever to a single artistic subculture trying to do anything but present the best and most respectful image possible. It doesn't erase the smutty shit. All it does is put in the background where it actually belongs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never said anything about the media. I said we're now responsible for self-perpetuating bad stereotypes. The weird touching and whatnot I've experienced at cons are simply because socially-illiterate nerds have a propensity to be jackasses, and the Furry community's own acceptance of wanton sexuality only emboldens these types of nerds to think that kind of invasion of privacy is okay. It is as much on us to stop excusing this behavior as it is for any outsider to accept it as part of the fringe.

And you really think that those examples of media are highly representative of the west's view of cartoon animals at large and that the Looney Tunes haven't been censored in the original shorts and neutered in subsequent media? That when Grandma Jane sees a cartoon fox, she's actually going to go straight for Fritz the Cat instead of Disney?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I and plenty of others have dealt with non-consensual touching and assault while in suit due to the fact that there are people who sincerely believe that every suit is fair game because "That's what Furry is about," which is a result of the hideous job we've done in defining ourselves and thus allowing every shmuck who thinks purple doggies are cool free reign in the club.

Do you think that a good first step would be to redefine ourselves so that such behavior is seen as unacceptable by a vast majority within the fandom? I will admit that I'm not sure about the prevalence of this attitude, but it shouldn't ever be accepted that people in fursuits should expect to be subjected to sexual harassment. That's absolutely wrong, and we can't let that deplorable behavior define the fandom. It may take longer to help change cultural views, but it may not take nearly as long to police the fandom so that such behavior can be outright rejected as inexcusable. 

Edited by Killtank

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I think the problem is ultimately an extension of nerd culture's tendency to allow a startling amount of harassment to take place against costumers at conventions, and that the roots of the problem reside there versus Furry itself. After all, this happens in con spaces dedicated to gaming, comic books and movies, and anime where there's a lack of mental or cultural association with lewd behavior. The two end goals definitely compliment each other in a way that says "Furry is a subculture centered on the arts versus fetishism, and as an example we are really strict about fursuiter harassment," but like you said I think it's more direct and appropriate to start by making it clear that harassment is not okay regardless of the nature of the fandom, and that con goers and con staff should be better educated on reporting and handling incidents when it happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1513700_10153518249443979_43529034577867

 

So this is making the rounds on Facebook.

 

And I call horseshit. As far as I know, those other fandoms don't have to worry about chlorine gas attacks. They don't have to worry about bricks being thrown at them. They don't have to worry about being singled out as perverts because of a sizable minority of the fanbase. The list goes on.

 

I think furries are far beyond just a simple interest or hobby. There is a legitimate community and identity. I have no doubt that there are people in other fandoms who seek out friends just for being in that fanbase, but furries seem to do so on a much larger scale.

 

There is PLENTY of reason to hide one is a furry. Especially when there's a very real threat of ostracism or even violence.

I see what you mean, but I get the impression that the image is about the fact that it shouldn't be something you need to "come out" as. Alas, we could say the same for homosexuality, but that isn't reality.

 

That said, I don't entirely agree with the statement that it's "just a hobby". While obviously not all furry fans get happy in the underpants for furries there are still those who are, but I guess that could be called a fetish instead of an orientation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Furry is not an orientation nor a fetish. It is indeed a hobby or interest first and foremost. It is one that can have a significant impact on your time spent regarding it, but that wildly varies from person to person, and ultimately it is not on the level of social stigma as homosexuality. Excluding the fact that there are not and never have been laws on the books specifically against Furries or suiters, the ultimate threat of severe ostracization is, as I perceive it to be, medium to low. The threat of an actual attack is significantly low when you take into account the ridiculous amount of conventions, meets, and random outings that happen practically every week without incident. 

Conflating the trials of being a Furry with "coming out" and "homosexuality" is how we get "fursecution." It's ridiculous. You want people to know you're a Furry? Don't act defensive about it when asked because it makes people think you're hiding something. If people ask me why I suit or am looking at artwork, I explain "anthro animals are cool" and they understand it and no respect is lost. Now, are there places where discussing Furry could be weird and have an impact on your social life? Of course, but that's with every niche fandom or hobby. I expect a 40 year old police officer who admits to playing Magic the Gathering or dressing up as Deadpool to his conservative buddies down at the station in Arkansas is going to get strange looks. The experience of being a well rounded human being is one where not every single aspect of ourselves is subject to crossing the borders of our different social circles. There's a time and place for everything, and generally I find the people who  get the most shit about being a Furry are the ones who don't understand this simple concept.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel as if I might of offended you without meaning to. I'm sorry.

On the contrary, you didn't offend me so no need for apologies. Sorry about the confusion myself. It's the general concept of furry persecution that gets me. I understand that there are instances where people are dicks to those in the fandom, but as far as I know there is no documented institutional trend of this actually going on in real life to warrant a victimization complex on part of the entire fandom. Yet people take the times where it does as something that needs serious addressing as a bigger problem than it really is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, alright. Only been a member of this place for about 2 hours, so I was worried I'd gone and pissed someone off in record time. :wacko:

 

I feel like any prosecution made towards furries isn't so much because they're furries but because they are "outside of the norm". There is some stigma attached that needs to go away, but it will with time. Until then I think doing what you suggested is the best idea really. Just be casual about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And it's no different from the weird anime and game geeks who spend all their time and money dressing up as the characters they enjoy, aside from most of them being human that is.

I agree.

No different to people dressing up on Halloween.

 I do not agree at all.

It's VERY different to people dressing up on Halloween. Dressing up for Halloween is just a one day thing. Furries who dress up in furry costume make a lifestyle out of wearing costumes. 

I know I'm responding to an older post, but I'm just saiyan.

Edited by Diesel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

It's VERY different to people dressing up on Halloween. Dressing up for Halloween is just a one day thing. Furries who dress up in furry costume make a lifestyle out of wearing costumes. 

I know I'm responding to an older post, but I'm just saiyan.

I wouldn't call dressing up whenever you feel like it a 'lifestyle'. I honestly don't know any suiters who wear their fursuits every day because it's a part of their day to day routine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only time I wear my fursuit is when there's a suit-friendly meet on or I'm going to an anime or furry convention. I don't wear it everyday as that would make it stinky and full of sweat, which would damage the costume. I like my fursuits clean and not smelly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Lifestyle" may have been the wrong word for me to use. My bad.

In any case, furries often put on their costumes on a regular basis, so they make a hobby out of it at the very least. It really can't be compared to dressing up on Halloween, as that's just a one day only every year thing. Something isn't a hobby if it's only done once a year.

Edited by Diesel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dude. You were banned for a reason, and that reason was you kept wanting to talk about dicks when the rules of the thread were "talk about everything except for dicks." You've had an annoying habit of not following basic directions made all the more obvious by your ban-dodging. Go away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This topic should not have needed to be derailed this much. However, allow me to try and clarify a few things.

But also per the SSMB Rules:

Be sure to check your grammar and punctuation.

The rules, or guidelines as we often call them these days, may be a bit vague in detail, so I will go ahead and clarify that a bit. On the SSMB, we enforce basic grammar in forum posts. Where do we draw the line? One concern which has been pointed out up through time is the fact that not all of us even use the English language outside of the boards, thus we do not expect everyone to be an expert. We are more strict when it comes to internationalized grammar (starting your sentences with a capital letter, ending your sentences with a punctuation mark or something similar). Capitalizing your I's when referring to oneself is also nice, but we will naturally be understanding as long as an effort at least is made to contribute to somewhat of a reading pleasure experience. The was/were issue might even be a mild dialect thing, who knows, but this is not a discussion to bring up in this topic (a language topic would be an interesting idea, however!)

The problem here, from my impression on the matter, is not whether or not the user tried to be helpful, but rather being at the wrong place at the wrong time, something which is not an uncommon occurrence on these boards. I like to think that most things are done in good faith, but right there and then, a moderator dealing with a case in a topic sees confrontation and derailment of the topic, and quite frankly, if you are able to put yourself in Kiah's shoes, it really does come off as disrespect and spam, does it not? It can even come off as retaliating together with the member the moderator was addressing. Not something to bring up in a discussion topic. Intentions may be good, but we have to act in the now of things, and spam/derailment is going to make it easier for subsequent post to go off-track and potentially cause further drama, as well. We prefer to keep discussion going in the right direction, on-topic, and one-worded posts aimed toward a moderator action is not going to aid in doing that. We hope you understand.

I'd also like to remind you that previously a mod has literally just posted "No" in a topic before and it got a popular star and the mod was not warned, seems pretty hypocritical to me.

The current system does not allow a member of staff to punish another member of staff. This is due to the fact that only admins (and the moderator in question) can deal with moderator complaints etc. I do not, and have never, approved of spammy moderator posts, but there is little I can do about that. If you have a problem with how a moderator handles things, you should contact one of our bosses, namely the admins. That said, we have recently introduced a routine which more or less requires us to give statements when closing topics etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.