Stephen Frost talks about Sonic Boom (franchise & game)

[jords]

I'll take splitscreen instead of sharing screens. We could explore the levels at our own pace and do whatever. Speedruns would be blast together or some type of multiplayer mode where you can screw each other in some way or boost yourself up.

 

The boost gameplay would of been fun as hell if it had split screen multiplayer.

[Xenos]

A high octane gotta speed keed game like Sonic doesn't mix with co-op. It's not going to happen and if it does it'll be bad. 2P versus mode and 4P smaller scaled minigames or relay races would probably be the best bet for multiplayer that's actually good. Otherwise just make an expansive single player romp with multiple playable characters, that's what most people care about.

[Salamander]

I'm a bit suspicious of these focus groups who have never played any Sonic games and yet somehow manage to be sick of speed in the games.  Seems to me it could well have been a reference to "boost2win."  Still, there's only so representative that a very small sample can be, no matter how carefully you select it, and I'm very suspicious of focus groups.  I'm reminded of how we never got Nanashi No Game in the west because Square Enix's focus groups complained that you couldn't shoot the zombies.

 

Isn't Frost no longer with SEGA? Yet he's still playing PR for them? (Granted, he's still under NDA even though he's no longer with the company, but still...)

 

 

Unless he was re-hired or something and I missed it, and I kinda doubt that's the case.

 

With job security the way it is in this industry, you probably don't want to burn your bridges.

[doom1235]

https://mobile.twitter.com/frostman007/status/578408446921314305

Seriously, he and his interview should be blamed when he said Sonic Boom success. He completely denied the reality

Stephen. Please admit the reality take responsibility that Sonic Boom's failure as producer of Sonic Boom.

[Komodin]

https://mobile.twitter.com/frostman007/status/578408446921314305

Seriously, he and his interview should be blamed when he said Sonic Boom success. He completely denied the reality

Stephen. Please admit the reality take responsibility that Sonic Boom's failure as producer of Sonic Boom.

 

Do you really think that he's just gonna outright trashtalk the product that he developed (and presumably still under some NDAs from SEGA with) and risk bringing himself even more trouble?

[Blacklightning]

Be that as it may, silence isn't controversial - it is a bad idea to outright trash his own products, but he shouldn't be under any obligation to speak of them, either.

 

If you ask me, he probably should've just kept his mouth shut.

[Solkia]

I guess it is in a sense, but not for this reasoning. Moreso, its because they tried using Cryengine 3 for a platforming/beat 'em up game... which also had co-op, requiring them to modify the Cryengine to get it working. Cryengine 3 on Wii U hasn't been done officially, though that could affect it somewhat because there's no backing to go on. But regardless, specifically Cryengine 3 on Wii U wasn't the problem, its everything else they tried to do as well... probably even moreso than the fact they did it on Wii U.

 

 

The performance issues can all be attributed to Cryengine.

 

There's a running joke in the PC community that goes "But can it run Crysis?" This is because Cryengine is a piece of garbage that takes way too many resources for things other more optimized engines can do a lot better.

 

This game should have never used Cryengine. I can't fathom what they were thinking when they chose to use it.

[doom1235]

Do you really think that he's just gonna outright trashtalk the product that he developed (and presumably still under some NDAs from SEGA with) and risk bringing himself even more trouble?

Purely trashtalk is not good for him. But he said against the reality. In reality, Sonic Boom is failed.

At least, he could say "Sonic Boom is not success. We should have fixed some problems."

Besides, he saids that too many features ruined(?) Sonic Boom. I doubt Sonic Boom has too many feature. Actually, Sonic Boom has only one memoriable feature called, enerbeam(of course It is blamed a lot.) other feature is just common features which is not fun and memoriable.

P.s Oh. He did not even mentioned about glitchs which makes Sonic Boom trash.

[SuperLink]

It's a shame he has to continue defending the game and working under NDA. He does make some good points in the interview but, the one thing that gets me is that he continually suggested that the Boom franchise was for non-Sonic fans, right?

 

He was the game producer, and while the inner workings of Boom game were probably more of a nightmare than he is at liberty to say, the Boom games relied on having prior knowledge of Sonic. There is 0 fucking worldbuilding. There are elements introduced left and right that would make NO sense to a new audience.

 

Sonic fucking 1 does a better job of worldbuilding for new players than Boom does. Who the hell is Shadow? Why should I care? Why do they know him? If the Boom games are supposed to be for non-Sonic fans it's no wonder people hate it so much. There is nothing in those games in terms of the world or characters that makes even one bit of sense to newcomers.

 

I just dunno. If Frost had any control over the game products, why the hell did he let it become something that you need prior experience with the series to even understand? He keeps saying it's for non-Sonic fans, and that's true of the cartoons and comics, but for the games that couldn't be less true! They made it with the assumption that people already know Shadow and Metal Sonic and Rings and etc.

 

PS. I actually really love co-op in Sonic games and I do think it's important. The future? Hell no. Difficult sometimes? Yep. But I still love it, and would be happy if Sonic Team continued to implement it as an easter egg like they used to do from Sonic 2 until Sonic Adventure. (Shadow doesn't count)

[Willsy]

If you ask me, he probably should've just kept his mouth shut.

That is exactly how I feel. It would have been better if he refused to comment or do an interview, some things are better left unspoken.

Also, as much as I like Frost, I can't bring myself to beleive the part about people getting bored of Sonic's primary attribute, the one that he has had for over two decades now and the one that he will probably have for the rest of his life. People are, however, frustrated and upset by the mediocrity of constant mismanagement of the franchise, and just want to see Sonic return to his former glory. Not necessarily by influence from the classics, but a consistent stream of quality titles.

Tedium is a completely different thing to someone's patience running out, and the Boom games in all honesty did not help the situation.

[Salamander]

It's worth noting that, when Frost refers to Sonic Boom, he doesn't necessarily mean just the games.  The TV show is a success, and it sounds like the merchandise has been too.  As for the shirt size discrepancy... maybe he's just not a very big guy?  But I think it's likely it was a private run for the staff of the game; this is something you see sometimes for video game developers, movie crews, etc.

 

As for Boom being for newcomers, intent at the start of the project doesn't necessarily translate to final execution.  We know Sega stuck their oar in relating to the platform, and it's always seemed likely that they put the kibosh on the reboot plan as well.  Although there are things I can buy as just making a lot of assumptions about what franchise newcomers will simply accept (colourful animal protagonists, fat guy villain, unusual currency - stuff that's also in the TV show without context).  But besides, this was always the premise of Boom - a new arm of the franchise, new universe.  We knew all along that it was for newcomers.

[SuperLink]

It's worth noting that, when Frost refers to Sonic Boom, he doesn't necessarily mean just the games.  The TV show is a success, and it sounds like the merchandise has been too. 

 

As for Boom being for newcomers, intent at the start of the project doesn't necessarily translate to final execution.  We know Sega stuck their oar in relating to the platform, and it's always seemed likely that they put the kibosh on the reboot plan as well.  Although there are things I can buy as just making a lot of assumptions about what franchise newcomers will simply accept (colourful animal protagonists, fat guy villain, unusual currency - stuff that's also in the TV show without context).  But besides, this was always the premise of Boom - a new arm of the franchise, new universe.  We knew all along that it was for newcomers.

Yeah he definitely refers to the whole thing, he's right that the cartoons are a success and he's right that the cartoons are for people who are new to Sonic. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were some serious management problems in SEGA preventing the Boom games from being more like the cartoons and comics in that aspect. However.. the only aspect of Boom that needs defending in the first place is the games.

 

The entire interview is pretty defensive in tone, defending decisions and ideas with why those things happened. Why would he defensively state "Boom was for non-Sonic fans" again and again if there was nothing to be defensive over? People generally like the comics and cartoons, there's no reason to be defensive over them. It sounds to me like he was saying that as an excuse for why Sonic fans didn't like the Boom games, more than anything, and that's what bugs me.

[Gabz Girl]

I agree with some of his points including that the show and comic is doing well and accessible for newcomers, but the games being accessible for newcomers? Nope, can't agree with that.

 

Mr Frost, there is no world building in RoL and SC; no lore, no character development and who the fuck outside the fandom knows who Shadow and Metal Sonic are? They can only assume that the latter was created by Eggman and the former is Sonic's brother or something. No, Sonic Boom did a terrible job at introducing the series to people who have never played a Sonic game before!

 

Do you really think that he's just gonna outright trashtalk the product that he developed (and presumably still under some NDAs from SEGA with) and risk bringing himself even more trouble?

 

No, but he could at least admit that the Sonic Boom games didn't do as well as he'd hoped. That's not trashtalking, that's just pointing out the facts. It did not sell well, it did not review well. At least he points out some of its flaws, in this case gameplay features (there's more problems than THAT though), but he could at least just go "Yeah, the games didn't perform as we'd hoped."

[Johnny Boy]

Oh no he mentioned Sonic Adventure 3...

SA3 confirmed for 25th anniversary game.

[Sami]

SA3 confirmed for 25th anniversary game.

 

I genuinely want this and I don't care what anyone says

[Gabz Girl]

I genuinely want this and I don't care what anyone says

 

 

I gotta believe!

 

...It's not gonna happen is it? 8<

[Stardust Speedman]

What a load of bullshit!

I really hope Sega and Sonic Team are NOT listening to this guy!

A lot of game franchises that are still running since the nineties (in my opinion by far the best decade of gaming) have been ruined, because the publishers or developers think that they need to reinvent the franchise to reach a wider audience. This is in my opinion a very wrong line of thought, as such long running franchises have a big fanbase and the number 1 thing the developers need to do is to make sure that they create games for that very fanbase and make sure that they are most satisfied. This way, the franchise will sustain high recognition and keep its identity. The idea of reinventing for a wider audience makes the franchise lose focus, some fans go away, some new ones come, but they are not united and want different things, the overall regard for the franchise suffers, no one is ever completely satisfied and it only gets worse over time. Sonic and Tomb Raider are perfect examples for this. That being said, there is nothing wrong with spin-offs and new ideas. New ideas are always very welcome, as long as they keep the spirit of the original concept, so that it wouldn't displease the core fanbase, and spin-offs are acceptable if they are clearly marketed as such and are of high quality in their own right. The concept of a spin-off Sonic Action-Adventure game is a very exciting one to me, but Sonic Boom is far from a good representation of that.

" you can only do so much with these eras/characters" is such a saddening and maddening thing to hear from "professional" game developers! Once again, it's the result of the franchise having lost focus and now, even the people in charge for the various new games in the series don't know what the series was originally about. Sonic 1, Sonic CD and Sonic 3 & Knuckles were excellent games and so far, there hasn't been a SINGLE Sonic game to recapture their feeling in even 2D, let alone 3D! How can a "professional" claim that there is nothing more to do?! Even when talking about the Sonic Adventure games, they had LOTS of room for improvement! The number one thing past the nineties that most game developers (not talking only about Sonic) have OBVIOUSLY forgotten how to do right is level design! I'm still longing for a new game that actually manages to present an awesome balance of variety, challenge, exploration and imagination with it's level design, the way that actually many games of the nineties did! Usually, 2D games do it better, but modern 3D games are FAR from the ideal! You don't know what to do with the original concept of the Sonic franchise anymore? I tell you what: Translate Sonic 3 & Knuckles to 3D! Too incapable of doing that? Fine, then pick the Sonic Adventure games, or the Sonic Unleashed type games, or the Sonic Story-Book games, or Sonic Lost World, and they ALL have still a LOT room for improvement! Again, first and foremost: LEVEL DESIGN!!!

Speaking of the newer Sonic games: I love the core concept of Sonic Unleashed! In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the concept of having the boost ability in a Sonic game and challenge based on lightning-fast reflexes. The problem is that the idea is not executed in the best possible way. In both Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Generations, you have practically endless boost. It would have been much more satisfying if the boost ability was difficult to sustain. Additionally, having the boost ability should not result in repetetive gameplay. Again, think of what the original Sonic games were about! What WERE the original Sonic games about? This is what I think:

- Flow! It doesn't mean that you have to run fast all the time, but it means that, if you master a level, you can play it in a way that you rarely ever come to a halt. You are always in motion and the whole experience feels fluid, dynamic and uninterruptive.
- Momentum and a general sense of good physics! You should feel a difference when you go up-hill or down hill, you're character must have a nice sense of weight, and you should gradually pick up speed when rolling down a slope, which should also increase your jumping ability.
- EXPLORATION AND THOUGHTFUL LEVEL DESIGN!!! I just can't stress this one enough! One of the very biggest appeals for me of the original Sonic games were the complex level layouts and how thoughtful the various routes were designed, offering different experiences based on the player's skill level and goal, which could go from slow and explorative to fast and competitive. Few of the modern Sonic levels, like the modern version of Seaside Hill in Sonic Generations come close, but the classic level designs are still yet to be topped!
- Imaginative locations! We are talking about a blue fast-running Hedgehog in a video game! So, developers, go crazy with your imagination! Although, arguably, I thoroughly enjoyed Sonic Unleashed's interpretation of real-world locations.
- Variety in each individual level, not only in how they look, but also in how they play! This is what all good platformers are about and what recent Sonic games have definitely room for improvement for!
- Challenge for the experienced players, while still being fun for not-so-experienced kids! The key to success? Multiple routs throughout a level and rewards for skillful play! Non-skillful players should at least be able to get to the final parts in the story of the game, but there are soooooooo many skillful Sonic players out there who deserve to be challenged through harder but more rewarding routs, special stages, and a well-designed score-system and ranking.
- Special Stages! I really don't understand why these are absent in the 3D Sonic games (except for Sonic Heroes). Again, they were a nice rewarding feature for skillful players, while being optional for the main path through the story.
- Water Levels! OK, I know, most people hate them, but I love water levels and miss them very much!

None of the things mentioned above are against having a boost ability with rewarding paths through a level that challenge your reaction-ability. Again, it is not like new ideas are not welcome. It's always nice to see your favorite game franchise evolve over time, so long the main aspects that made you fall in love with it in the first place remains unharmed! And, again, spin-offs are absolutely fine, as long as they are clearly spin-offs and are designed well in their own right!

Also: CO-OP AND MULTIPLAYER IS NOT THE FUTURE OF SONIC GAMES!!! DON'T DEVIATE EVEN FURTHER FROM THE CORE OF THE SONIC FRANCHISE!!!

“Solo Sonic games, I don’t know how long that can last there isn’t enough variety to sustain it.” <-------- THIS IS UTTER BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!

[Autosaver]

1: the story about the T-Shirt. To my knowledge, and bare in mind we have a merch forum full of people who buy/post news on tons of stuff, I myself look for tons of stuff too... To my knowledge, there are no adult sized Boom shirts for sale... ANYWHERE. Unless this was a custom job, this can't be true.

 

Are we seriously going conspiracy over the guy in charge of Sonic Boom wearing a Sonic Boom t-shirt?

 

 

[Tani Coyote]

I see plenty of potential in co-op and online play for Sonic.

...provided it's split screen. The speed shouldn't be too much of a deterrent, it sure isn't for racing games, which you can choose to move an inch an hour if you so desire.

Beyond that though, it is an interesting interview. It's a shame professionalism requires he still avoid harsh criticism even after he's left the company.

The comics/show/merch? They've done well enough. These games? Holy lord terribad.

[Milo]

Stephen Frost has done an interview and talks about Sonic Boom... 

 

http://www.seganerds.com/2015/03/17/sega-nerdcast-episode-81-with-stephen-frost/

 

...

 

Claims that in focus tests people said that Sonic was too fast, people complained about speed. 

 

...

 

Claims that fans were tired of speed

 

Lost World garnering criticism for largely doing away with speed pretty much proves this claim false. Heck, the main presence of speed wasn't even what fans were tired of, fans were tired of speed being the means to an end in recent Sonic games, rather than speed being a trademark of the series' gameplay like in earlier titles. Anyone who actually thinks Sonic games should do away with one of the series' big selling points really shouldn't be the type of people they should be appealing to. Then again, they should had focused more on pleasing the existing fanbase with good games instead of trying to reinvent Sonic for a new audience (again), because hardly anyone wanted another split in the series in the first place.

 

Like Hoggy said, this largely shows how out of touch the people running the series are with its community.

 

As for that follow up response from Frost claiming about his quotes being taken out of context...given the history of Boom's development, I don't think I can agree. Frost claimed that the excessive in-game dialogue people complained about in the pre-release demos for Rise of Lyric "has been adjusted to better match what the characters are doing and allow players to better focus on the actual gameplay", whereas in the final game there is virtually no difference on how frequent the dialogue is used. He also said they couldn't use too much material from the existing SegaSonic universe because "this is the first two games in the Sonic Boom franchise and that we are just starting to build a foundation here for the future", even though the games not only have little to do with the show outside of some superficial aspects (the main cast, Eggman, Sticks, and some side characters), but the games themselves also have little in common (with neither of the events from both games referenced in either version despite using the same cast of characters). Both of those quotes, by the by, are unaltered from his original posts and aren't unframed from their original contexts.

 

 

Here's the thing about co-op in a Sonic game.

 

*post*

 

The only way I could see co-op fitting in the context of Sonic's gameplay is if the speed aspect was re-tooled to focus on how fast you and your co-op partners could work together to complete levels, rather than how fast the players can complete levels in general, but that would arguably result in largely retooling the gameplay structure for Sonic, if not demand a different playstyle in its entirety. And even then it would be a hard-sell if this type of co-op gameplay was the basis for an entire game (though maybe it could work as a sidegame to a more traditional title).

[JezMM]

Standard PR fluff where a developer tries to be honest and admit faults in a product before quickly spinning them into a positive because otherwise he gets sued.

 

Standard response from SSMB where there's several people who don't get how PR works and demand that people be brutally honest and risk their entire future in their career of choice doing so just because they're butthurt about getting a bad game.  =U

 

 

 

I dunno, since there's several things he said here that we KNOW can't be true, I don't find that much to gain from believing or disbelieving the other stuff he had to say that don't add up (obviously several things he says we know are true too).  While I dunno about it being "the future" for Sonic I'd like to see co-op done well in the series for sure.

 

But generally speaking this is just usual worming around bad stuff and I don't blame him in the slightest because I'd be doing the same in his position.

[Celestia]

I really hope Sega and Sonic Team are NOT listening to this guy!

Why would SEGA or Sonic Team "listen to him" now, considering he was let go? I don't have anything against him*, but after everything that went down, that's a weird statement to make.

 

*I'm so apathetic about the Booms games and their existence that, even if it turned out Stephen was an evil mastermind who sabotaged everything for whatever reason, I would be like "oh, ok".

[Stardust Speedman]

Why would SEGA or Sonic Team "listen to him" now, considering he was let go?

Well that's true. But I'm just afraid that Sega or Sonic Team may follow a similar lign of thought, namely putting the focus on co-op, multiplayer, wisps, companions, and things like that, instead of focusing on a fluid, varied, challenging and imaginative single-player experience with stellar level design. There is nothing against a small multiplayer feature at the side, but the main focus of the core Sonic franchise should remain on delivering a solid single-player experience, with no interruption by simultanious secondary characters, players, or special abilities. Again, co-op might be OK, if executed well, as a small side feature. I say small, because it shouldn't distract from making sure the singe-player experience is as awesome as possible and has the flow of the original games.

[CottonCandy]

When he says "Sonic Boom was a success", I think he was referring to the whole franchise and not strictly the games. He is right, the cartoon is doing pretty well. I don't know about the comic or the merchandise doing well but I'm assuming they are. 

 

Anyway, I think there could have been a better way to incorporate speed in some fashion rather than getting rid of it just because the focus group says " it's too fast". You're dealing with a franchise that sells on one and only gimmick: Speed. Getting rid of that gimmick just damages the brand. Sonic Lost World did a much better job at slowing down sonic but then again there were some of criticisms on the game for being slow. I would agree with him on one thing, co-op. I would love to see more co-op modes in sonic games. ( just alot more polished)

[Guest]

I've only read the article on the front page about this (personally don't like SEGANerds so not sure if I will listen to the podcast), but even with the added context it sounds like he's being dishonest. Like they barely tried to "capture speed" aside from adding bad Temple Run sections that felt like they were part of a different game. And he's talking as if they were being incredibly ambitious, while the final game wasn't much more than a buggy generic PS2 game. It could understand them being ambitious if a lot of stuff was cut (which it likely was), but Stephen specifically talks about them being ambitious with stuff that's in the final game.

 

Also, having to teach the teams what Sonic is about was hard to do in a short amount of time? Besides it probably being better to get people who would know how to make a Sonic game to reinvent the series, the final game feels like it was designed by people who didn't know anything about the series aside from Sonic and Tails' personalities and only halfway through development got to know that Sonic is supposed to be fast.

 

I feel bad for Stephen for having such a bad game on his name, and I can get it if he really thinks that the game was good. But at the same time, so much of what he says doesn't match up with what the ended up in the game that it's hard for me to believe that he was being honest here.