Dr. Strangehog, or How I Learned to Stop Being Cynical and Just Enjoy Sonic Games (aka The Cynicism Topic)

[CottonCandy]

I really don't know why I stuck with this strange franchise. To me, Sonic is more than a video game nowadays. Over the past 20 years, the series has become a comic book series, cartoons series, became a toyline, and it gathered such a huge ( yet shattered) fanbase. So in comparison to, say, Sly Cooper, Sonic just has alot more to offer. 

 

Believe or not guys, I don't play alot of Sonic games and I don't own alot of merchandise. As a matter of fact I'm pretty terrible at playing certain sonic games.  I stay around because of the other stuff that are around. Or maybe I'm talking nonsense and I'm really just cursed with the sonic virus...

[azoo]

For real though, I'm gonna be honest with you guys why Sonic keeps people around while Spyro, Crash, whatever else franchise didn't whenever they got sour.

 

Sonic's better than them.

 

I know that sounds like I'm trying to state opinion as fact, but think about it.

 

Did any of those have a style to it that granted nearabout 100% universal appeal (like, Mario-scale)? Did any of those have gameplay that actually made anyone state in the wide open that it was spectacular in every sense of the word? Did any of them have enough power behind it to manage single-handedly pulling an industry out of a monopoly?

 

Did any of those ever reach a quality that rivaled, if not excelled some of Nintendo's franchises? Did any of those games feel as important as it did when you played the Sonics? Did any other franchise of that caliber at least attempt to take the narrative an extra step forward in game progression? Did any of them manage to make games that lead to large groups of people putting at least one of them on their "top games of all time" list?

 

I don't think so.

 

Sonic was phenomenal, and with the right push he could always be phenomenal again. But the hope for that gets smaller the longer we go on, it feels. Especially since the idea as to what was really that great gets smudged a little bit more every time we go through a whirlwind of change that Sega loves to put us through.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think the only platformer franchise that came close to any of that would be Megaman, although that might be too generous in some ways...

[Kuzu]

Pffft. everyone knows Ratchet & Clank is like infinitely better than Sonic anyway.

 

 

#SHOTS

[Gatestormer]

I'm always looking forward to seeing what Sonic's future holds. The way I see it, new talent is making it's way in to the industry all the time and eventually, everyone who has worked on Sonic in the past will be long gone and replaced by a whole new team from a different generation. I don't think it's unreasonable to hope that one day we get someone on board who grew up with Sonic and actually gets it.

[Mauro Fonseca]

I agree that the cynicism of SSMB is self-fulfilling and is thus more exaggerated than it needs to be. Misery loves company, after all. One could even argue that the amount of undue pessimism casts doubt on some of the veracity of the criticism Sonic Team receives. But I do think the dissatisfaction with the current games is honest, nor is it hypocritical (you can't determine whether or not it's the same people demanding both change and consistency. Even if you could, there's enough context surrounding these terms and the way Sonic Team implements criticism that makes it disingenuous to conflate them as mutually exclusive.) Is it fair that people are waiting for another Adventure-esque experience to come along? Not fully; every game should stand on its own merits, but that's simply not how we process our media consumption, especially when it comes to long-running series that create expectations for themselves. People are going to retreat to and uphold the art that is most satisfying to them. It's no different from the shadow the classic games have cast over the franchise since SA2/Heroes.

 

I'm not going to say I wasn't calling the forum hypocritical because, well, I was, but I didn't mean... how to put this.

 

I can understand the complaints. I can imagine, intellectually at least, "if I loved Adventure I'd be sour right now" too. Hell, I've a similar attitude in regards to the comics, although I'd argue you've all at least had Adventure while I've never had a Sonic comic like how I'd like it. I can sympathize.

 

But it still nags me like hell when it seems people take a zero sum "it's Adventure or bust, when I say they need to stop experimenting I mean they need to make Adventure, when I say they need to change I mean they need to make Adventure, when I say there's a goal I mean Adventure, when I say the games need more characters I need Adventure" attitude. I dunno. It feels that the general discourse tries to be a "I just want a good Sonic game again" attitude, but betrays itself to a "but if it's not good in the way I want, I don't care, what I want is Adventure" feeling.

 

But again, I can sympathize. I guess I'd just like a bit more open-ness in that Adventure is the ideal and people tend to be specifically referring to it as an improvement to Sonic.

[Kuzu]

Its not so much 'WE WANT ANOTHER ADVENTUR", but rather we're kind of tired of this Looney Tunes/Mario esc approach to the series and want Sonic to go back to being ya know, Sonic. It just so happens that Adventure was the closest thing to what people would want out of the series.

 

I mean, I don't think wanting a more action-adventure orientated setting in a grounded world in a series where the main premise is about a group of friends who go on journeys to fight the villains is really unreasonable. 

[Mauro Fonseca]

It isn't, which is why I said I sympathesize with that, but it also nags me how apparently the only way to achieve an action-adventure orientated setting in a grounded world in a series where the main premise is about a group of friends who go on journeys to fight the villains is Adventure, or that certain parts of that sentence (such as grounded world) are more Sonic than their opposites (the old Lost World looks like 1, CD, and Chaotix, and therefore is not Sonic but Mario, because Sonic is 2, 3, Adventure discussion I had once or twice with Sami)

 

Again, what you're actually upholding is that Adventure is your ideal of Sonic and you want to go back, which is fine. why not use language explicitly pointing to that?

[Kuzu]

Because whenever we do, we get accused of being nostalgia whores who can't accept change

That and I don't mind the current setting that much, it's just not my cup of tea.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nepenthe]

Saying you want a specific kind of game design to return is not an admission that it's the only way to do things. All it is is an admission that you believe it's the most ideal choice out of the existing choices. The craft of game design leaves limitless potential to create anything you want, and there's other games that could provide good inspiration for the franchise that aren't action-adventure platformers. However, if it came down to a choice between Adventure and Lost World's direction from now on, I would pick Adventure. That is the context I operate in; existing choices of Sonic games that inconsistent Sonic Team has tried before, because I can't express justified preference for a Sonic game that isn't real.

Regardless, I don't know why anyone's steadfastness on the matter is such a bother; why my wanting of Experience A over Experience B is so damned wrong. I'd rather someone put forth an argument on why the stated positives of the Adventure formula would be detrimental to the franchise rather than people attacking the passion. For the years I've talked about the importance of the kind of stage-narrative feedback the Adventure games provided in establishing context that makes a game world more believable, no one has actually been able to argue why the opposite is indeed better. In fact, no one has tried. All I seem to read is that the Adventure games are dated/were never good and so they automatically have nothing to offer. I'd honestly like someone to try convincing me that the current direction is better beyond the technical competency; I've long since agreed that polished games are a good thing.

[Sean]

I like to think of the Adventure games not as the best 3D Sonics by a long shot, but certainly the most fun. I can't really go back to them anymore with the same mindset I once had, particularly due to their age and just because I'm tired of playing them, but I still think there are reasons for them being the most well-liked 3D games among the general public other than the novelty of being the first of their kind.

[Gabz Girl]

What made the Sonic Adventures games so great, especially the first one, was that the gameplay was still very Sonicy. By that I mean, it wasn't always focused on speed and boosting through a stage, it was a fun platformer which awarded you with bursts of speed. Just like the 2D games, each stage would give you a speedy section with loop de loops, a boost pad or whatever else to make you run faster after a basic platforming section.

 

I really hate the massive focus on speed nowadays because you lose the platforming in the progress. And sure Colours had it, but it was all in 2D and very blocky. Can't they do 3D platforming again? Well according to SLW yes, but the execution there was really poor. Sometimes I wonder if a developer like Sonic Team could even do a SA1 style game again in this day and age!

[Nepenthe]

I think another thing that frustrates me about advocating for an Adventure game is that, aside from hubs, I don't see what in the style of Sonic's gameplay and the storytelling as a whole that threatens to clash with anything modern game fans like. Sonic can still be funny and flawed while not standing around and spouting one-liners. We can have multiple characters without sacrificing gameplay consistency (did anyone have a seizure or anything with Gen's character missions?) Eggman can both be an active threat and still argue with Orbot and Cubot. Fuck, we can even have power-ups like the Wisps and still have contextual level design too.

I don't see a lot of things about what people want from the two different sides that couldn't be combined and reconciled very easily. So what is the actual problem here? Do people just think we literally don't like anything from the modern games or think we're asking for a Sonic 06 port or something? What's the big deal with admiring some of the things Adventure did?

[azoo]

I think another thing that frustrates me about advocating for an Adventure game is that, aside from hubs, I don't see what in the style of Sonic's gameplay and the storytelling as a whole that threatens to clash with anything modern game fans like. Sonic can still be funny and flawed while not standing around and spouting one-liners. We can have multiple characters without sacrificing gameplay consistency (did anyone have a seizure or anything with Gen's character missions?) Eggman can both be an active threat and still argue with Orbot and Cubot. Fuck, we can even have power-ups like the Wisps and still have contextual level design too.

I don't see a lot of things about what people want from the two different sides that couldn't be combined and reconciled very easily. So what is the actual problem here? Do people just think we literally don't like anything from the modern games or think we're asking for a Sonic 06 port or something? What's the big deal with admiring some of the things Adventure did?

 

Yeah, I don't get the whole "you're completely with one side or the other" kind of thing that people often like to latch onto, especially since it seems to imply that we don't know that they're not-so-polished games that have their problems. As much as I love both Adventures, I could tell you that without hesitation.

 

...Man, I just want my Sonic game with flowy, speed-building gameplay. With slopes and hills and ramps, and lots of alternate pathways and secrets and collectibles, and a little bit of cinematic action in-between spaces. With characters to play as that don't detract but add to all of that. With a hub world, or at least something that tries to not push in your face that it's a video game. With a story that you can take seriously enough to care about, but light-hearted enough to not feel out of place. Lots of extra stuff like missions and 2P mode (coop or racing), or even side-game stuff like kart racing and Chao Gardens, or even a post-game thing, who knows. Surprise me on that front or something.

 

Sometimes I wonder if those wants are just too specific to want anymore. I'm just rambling at this point. How many times have I done that in this topic already? It's probably getting annoying to read.

[Kuzu]

I really do want someone who is such an advocate for the current direction of the series to come and say why our wants are not ideal for the series and why the current direction is so much more preferable. I mean if people love the current direction so much, it'd at least be good to know why. I can get a better understanding at least, otherwise I'm just going to assume they're just being silent.

 

 

I just want an answer to this question: "Why is wanting the series to follow up on a couple of concepts and ideas that never really took off such a bad idea?" Can someone please answer this. This is probably the most sincere question I will ask on this board.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I just want an answer to this question: "Why is wanting the series to follow up on a couple of concepts and ideas that never really took off such a bad idea?" Can someone please answer this. This is probably the most sincere question I will ask on this board.

Typical answer is usually a paragraph long diatribe that basically saying "I don't like it, therefore it's bad for the series."

 

You know, them acting like they know what's best for everyone, without understanding everyone else's disagreements? And then it stirs the whole beehive - don't ask for sympathy if you refuse to give it in return, I say

[Gabz Girl]

Well yeah, obviously I don't want ALL of Sonic to go back to Adventure style everything. I don't really want to see character roulette anymore, though obviously having other characters playable besides Sonic a la Sonic Advance 2 would be a treat (a little bit slower than Sonic but with unique abilities). Dr Eggman can still be hilarious and have funny scenes with Orbot and Cubot, Wisps can make a return and bringing back Emblems can give the games some replay value again. I just want more content, more story, more more more.

[pppp]

So I suddenly remembered that blog from years back and I thought of putting it here:

 

http://www.tssznews.com/2009/01/05/the-blog-sega-doesnt-want-you-to-read/

 

 

“Sonic Team are a relic from a past age who have overstayed their welcome. For the same marketing reasons that their name was initially kept (and has since backfired) they should be dissolved – it may already be too late for NiGHTS (and I really hope it isn’t and they manage to turn it around, which with Iizuka-san’s passion for the project is a possibility), but for the good of the company’s image; for the future of Sega’s other prestigious IPs and lastly for its iconic mascot it needs to be done… before they release another Sonic game with a transforming Evil ‘Night’ Sonic who looks like a werewolf and can stretch his arms out Dhalsim-style. It will happen, mark my words.“

[Sami]

Sonic Team doesn't care and that's why there wasn't a Sonic Saturn game? Really?

Read about SA1, 06, and Unleashed's development and come back to me. The notion that Sonic Team stopped caring after Sonic 3 is frankly laughable. There are tons of issues behind the scenes that explain the problems with those games, but lack of passion definitely isn't one of them. I believe all three were victims of executive meddling and rushed development, not lazy developers.

[Blue Blood]

I'd go as far as to say it feels like a prolonged combination of bad decisions and executive meddling have ultimately led to an apathetic Sonic Team. If your creative spirit constantly gets stifled and your ideas and work met with negative reception, you will eventually just stop caring as much. I think Sonic Team is there.

[Mauro Fonseca]

They only cared so SEGA'd pay them a nice trip to Latin America

 

 

as proven by this photo where they're clearly about to try and drown Sonic in a well

 

 

Nah, it's pretty well documented that the reason there was no Saturn game is because by the time they were working on it, the Dreamcast appeared. Much like with Shenmue. Look at these photos- they're from 1996. Dreamcast was out just two years later.

 

Also, sidenote- Station Square's resort?

 

[Mr. Taxi]

It makes me smirk how the accusations made against Adventure-formula proponents are the very same accusations the Adventure-formula proponents would make against Classic-formula proponents just a few years ago - and the defense is indeed the same too.

 

Well, time flies.

[Sami]

I'd go as far as to say it feels like a prolonged combination of bad decisions and executive meddling have ultimately led to an apathetic Sonic Team. If your creative spirit constantly gets stifled and your ideas and work met with negative reception, you will eventually just stop caring as much. I think Sonic Team is there.

[Sylvia Sylvain]

SONIC is a great franchise.

Many sidescroller franchises born in the 90's are dead by now.

SONIC is a legend who should be treated with respect and awe.

OF COURSE ONE WHO FORGETS THE PAST IS DOOMED TO REPEAT IT.

[Milo]

I'd go as far as to say it feels like a prolonged combination of bad decisions and executive meddling have ultimately led to an apathetic Sonic Team. If your creative spirit constantly gets stifled and your ideas and work met with negative reception, you will eventually just stop caring as much. I think Sonic Team is there.

 

That and I'd argue it's not so much Sonic Team doesn't care about Sonic than it is Sega doesn't care about Sonic. The article pppp linked literally says Sega forced Iizuka to put NiGHTS on the Wii instead of it being a 360/PS3 title against his wishes, and on top of that didn't give them additional time/resources in spite of the dictated change (which is exactly what happened with Sonic X-treme and probably Boom: RoL as well).