Sonic Speed Tiers

[GUILD]

That's a pretty vague qualifier. Warping time and space could be simply creating a temporary wormhole, which still involves moving through it to get from point A to point B, or it could be that he's moving so fast on a molecular level that time and space are warped as a result of his movement. You instead would have to establish that he's literally folding the universe in on himself and just standing there somehow.

Right, but even in a wormhole, the space or "distance" traveled there =/= the space/distance traveled over solid ground. Throughout all of this, he's still missing the "distance" part of the equation.

No, that's from his species, he did that before he was remade into a ninja.

His ninja attributes probably mostly boost stats like agility and athleticism.

You've missed too much of the conversation lol xD

[Nepenthe]

Right, but even in a wormhole, the space or "distance" traveled there =/= the space/distance traveled over solid ground. Throughout all of this, he's still missing the "distance" part of the equation.

This is a completely arbitrary distinction. He's still traveling across space in this equation, meaning you can roughly calculate a speed of travel.

Metal Sonic can float and fly. Does this mean he's discounted since he's not touching the ground? Of course not.

[Diogenes]

A wormhole is more like taking (/making) a shortcut, IMO. It means he's not running the same race as everyone else.

[Kuzu]

But I thought we're measuring just distance that's simply being moved, not necessarily on the ground or not.

The Babylon Rogues use Hover Boards, and like Nep said, Metal Sonic flies. So why aren't they considered "cheating" like Shadow using Chaos Control is?

[Diogenes]

What I'm saying is, just because two people start and end at the same place, that doesn't mean that they traveled the same distance. One person could take a straight-line path, while the other could take a longer, less direct one. Even if the first person gets to the end sooner, that doesn't mean they were moving faster. And if Chaos Control works like a wormhole, that means he isn't going faster, it means he's making an even shorter path.

[Bowbowis]

What I'm saying is, just because two people start and end at the same place, that doesn't mean that they traveled the same distance. One person could take a straight-line path, while the other could take a longer, less direct one. Even if the first person gets to the end sooner, that doesn't mean they were moving faster. And if Chaos Control works like a wormhole, that means he isn't going faster, it means he's making an even shorter path.

That assumes Chaos Control works like a wormhole, which is conjecture at best. If that is the case and Chaos Control really does work by eliminating the distance between point A and Point B then I concur that it should be discounted but it's a pretty big "if". Especially when one considers that SA2, ShtH, and SatBK all seem to show Shadow/Lancelot moving through the intervening space when using Chaos Control rather than simply jumping from start to finish.

[Kuzu]

Yea, all of that is running on the assumption that Chaos Control just takes you from point A to point B instantly, but it's almost always portrayed as lightning fast movement that just simply appears to be teleporting. Like them generic Anime flash steps.

[Wraith]

Isn't there usually some kind of limit on how much Shadow can do it though? 

[FantasticMrRobb]

So, I'm sure we can all go ahead and confirm Sonic being the fastest here.

Shadow is defiantly a close second, but I would never go so close as to saying he's equally fast as Sonic. Shadow's even stated before that Sonic is faster than him.

I would say Tails is a definite third, now that I think about it. Tails has been running and keeping up with Sonic for years, even if Sonic wasn't going supersonic. I was going to count off points because Tails isn't actually running but flying, but the same argument could go for Shadow. Then again, this is how fast characters can go, not how fast they can run.

I was going to say Knuckles for 4th, but for some reason I'm really feeling Blaze. It's obvious that in the Rush titles Blaze kind of feels like Sonic's female equivalent. As for how fast Blaze can really go, I couldn't begin to tell you. But I know she's fast, and I could speculate faster than Knuckles. Just a hunch, more or less.

Giving the 5th spot to Knuckles. I don't think I have any real points to bring up besides seeing him keep up with Sonic from time to time, but I think that's a lazy excuse since I've already used it and anyone could keep up with Sonic depending on how fast he's going. I can't remember exactly where, but I remember seeing a few times in Sonic X where Knuckles's speed impressed me. Besides all this, again it's just a hunch.

TL;DR

1. Sonic

2. Shadow

3. Tails

4. Blaze

5. Knuckles

[Diogenes]

That assumes Chaos Control works like a wormhole, which is conjecture at best. If that is the case and Chaos Control really does work by eliminating the distance between point A and Point B then I concur that it should be discounted but it's a pretty big "if". Especially when one considers that SA2, ShtH, and SatBK all seem to show Shadow/Lancelot moving through the intervening space when using Chaos Control rather than simply jumping from start to finish.

Yea, all of that is running on the assumption that Chaos Control just takes you from point A to point B instantly, but it's almost always portrayed as lightning fast movement that just simply appears to be teleporting. Like them generic Anime flash steps.

Well I'm not saying Chaos Control definitely works like a wormhole, just that if it does, I don't consider that to be "going fast".

I'm not sure I entirely trust the gameplay versions of Chaos Control to be accurate, though. It could be just a convenient way to represent it, since I'm not sure how you would even do a player-controlled wormhole-style teleport in a game like Sonic. And while that SA2 scene makes it look like Shadow's just moving really fast, that doesn't match what happens when Sonic first uses it; he couldn't have just run from the trapped capsule through empty space to get back to the ARK, and when he reappears it looks like he had passed out. The games really aren't consistent with it, however it's supposed to work.

[Bowbowis]

Well I'm not saying Chaos Control definitely works like a wormhole, just that if it does, I don't consider that to be "going fast".

I'm not sure I entirely trust the gameplay versions of Chaos Control to be accurate, though. It could be just a convenient way to represent it, since I'm not sure how you would even do a player-controlled wormhole-style teleport in a game like Sonic. And while that SA2 scene makes it look like Shadow's just moving really fast, that doesn't match what happens when Sonic first uses it; he couldn't have just run from the trapped capsule through empty space to get back to the ARK, and when he reappears it looks like he had passed out. The games really aren't consistent with it, however it's supposed to work.

Indeed. It's definitely not just "going fast," the lack of a gaping Biolizard shaped hole in the ARK is proof enough of that. If I had to guess how Chaos Control works I'd say it's probably something along the lines of a Star Trek transporter where the user is converted into energy, zips to their destination, and then converted back. At the very least travelling in an altered state would explain why walls and other obstructions aren't a problem despite the user still crossing the space between point A and point B.

[Sparky]

Sonic and Shadow are consistently said to be equal in speed and agility.  so they both share the number 1 spot. Tails the 2 tailed fox that debuted I'm Sonic 2 is a close second, with the proof lying in the classics and Sonic Adventure. That's all I know for sure. Whoever is Third could be either Amy, Knuckles or Blaze.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Sparky

[GUILD]

This is a completely arbitrary distinction. He's still traveling across space in this equation, meaning you can roughly calculate a speed of travel.
Metal Sonic can float and fly. Does this mean he's discounted since he's not touching the ground? Of course not.

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but you do realize the common sense implications of the phrase "over solid ground", much more in this sentence and especially in a context like this, right? At the very least, you know what a wormhole is? That would have made that distinction clear. Maybe it's just late at night where you are? xDD I know the feel lmao.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

[Nepenthe]

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but you do realize the implications of the phrase "oversold ground", especially in a context like this, right?

My point is that the implications are so arbitrary as to not make an objective argument.

The fact is no one knows how Chaos Control works. It has been shown to simply slow time for the user and allow a person to move at what they perceive a normal speed is (which would still count), to creating a worm hole (which may or may not count, depending upon how worm holes are actually working), to potentially causing some quantum-esque breakdown of the body and causing the person to go fast that way (which would still count); and even then these interpretations are just that- interpretations. To try and definitively conclude it doesn't count at all in this entire discussion because of reasons is completely futile, at least not without more information.

It's also irrelevant. This entire topic has not hinged on simply whatever a character's "ground" speed is. It simply asks us to rank the fastest characters, and we're free to take a variety of factors into account. No one is obligated to go by some random limit just to "make things fair," especially since fairness has nothing to do with asking us to compare everyone's abilities. Anyone saying "Chaos Control doesn't count" is only making an argument in regard to their own personal tier list. Meanwhile, others are free to count warping as they please.

[GUILD]

But I thought we're measuring just distance that's simply being moved, not necessarily on the ground or not.

The Babylon Rogues use Hover Boards, and like Nep said, Metal Sonic flies. So why aren't they considered "cheating" like Shadow using Chaos Control is?

Because they're moving over the same space...? Not to mention, we're not counting hoverboards in a test of speed. At least I'm not. It misses the point. Besides, everyone has extreme gear and everyone can ride each others extreme gear.

That assumes Chaos Control works like a wormhole, which is conjecture at best. If that is the case and Chaos Control really does work by eliminating the distance between point A and Point B then I concur that it should be discounted but it's a pretty big "if". Especially when one considers that SA2, ShtH, and SatBK all seem to show Shadow/Lancelot moving through the intervening space when using Chaos Control rather than simply jumping from start to finish.

Conjecture at best? Literally the only game that "seem to show Shadow/Lancelot moving through the intervening space when using Chaos Control rather than" is Shadow the Hedgehog. In every other installment, "simply jumping from start to finish." is literally all we see. Not to mention, ShtH is already a strictly gimmicky game that uses those for similar theme and gimmick/mechanic reasons rather than anything else. It wouldn't make sense for Shadow to legit start sparking blue and walking about before flying through the area super fast on a fixed track, ignoring all conscious destinations and important goals while destroying everything and gaining gun unlimited ammo when that's clearly not what happens from the point A to Bs that we see lol.

Yea, all of that is running on the assumption that Chaos Control just takes you from point A to point B instantly, but it's almost always portrayed as lightning fast movement that just simply appears to be teleporting. Like them generic Anime flash steps.

You might want to redefine that or clarify. Because as we see is a flash of light and he's gone. If that's what you mean by lightning fast movement and generic anime flash steps (which clearly aren't the same as that, rather they're quickly blurs of the characters' color palette or a flash of black lines or they just disappear all together), then how is that a contrary to "the assumption that Chaos Control just takes you from point A to point B instantly"?

[Nepenthe]

Why don't hoverboards count but jet engines (Metal) do? And just because everyone can ride each other's hoverboards doesn't mean they have the same skill in using it to achieve high speed maneuvers, the same as if someone put on Sonic's shoes they wouldn't magically go at his speed.

[GUILD]

My point is that the implications are so arbitrary as to not make an objective argument.

The fact is no one knows how Chaos Control works. It has been shown to simply slow time for the user and allow a person to move at what they perceive a normal speed is (which would still count) No, it wouldn't. Especially since the question is "compared to other characters"., to creating a worm hole (which may or may not count, depending upon how worm holes are actually working), to potentially causing some quantum-esque breakdown of the body and causing the person to go fast that way (which would still count). To try and definitively conclude it doesn't count at all in this entire discussion because of reasons is completely futile, at least not without more information.

It's also irrelevant. This entire topic has not hinged on simply whatever a character's "ground" speed is. It simply asks us to rank the fastest characters, and we're free to take a variety of factors into account. No one is obligated to go by some random limit just to "make things fair," especially since fairness has nothing to do with asking us to compare everyone's abilities. We're not being asked to compare everyone's abilities.

Anyone saying "Chaos Control doesn't count" is only making an argument in regard to their own personal tier list. Meanwhile, others are free to count warping as they please.

Alright.

Excluding CC has...it's got nothing to do with fairness haha... I've made that distinction enough in previous posts. I'm not sure why you're bring that up lol.

So yes, the question is a ranking of the fastest character. In order to do that, you would have to calculate each characters speed and make a comparison.

How would we do that?

-Well obviously, the speed of two or more characters would have to have their speed calculated and then compared to see which one is highest.

Where to even start?

-Well to determine how fast a character is, we're obviously calculating their speed. That is, the distance they cross divided by the amount of time it takes them to do so. Obviously, all characters have to be crossing the same distance, or the comparison is thrown out of whack. This is in the same way that having two Olympic athletes race each other, runner A traveling 100 meters to the finish line and runner B  traveling 500 and then claiming runner A the fastest because he reached his finish first wouldn't make sense. No, the only acceptable comparison would be to clock in both runners at an equal distance run. That way, we can apply the same speed formula to both and then compare the results. Likewise, with our Sonic character, we compare their result to those of other characters to see who crossed a distance the fastest. Seeing as a lot of this is going to be both hypothetical and based on performances in games and character info, we're not going to be able to get the best full roster ranking.

Hence why my list was described and made as follows lol

I don't wanna get into too much so I'll just stick with the game characters. I'm going by running speed, or speed via just raw physical muscle exertion and capability as opposed to energy manipulation and stuff like Silver. All based on performance in games in addition to speculation based on character.

 

Top

• Sonic > Metal Sonic > Shadow

Top-Mid

• Blaze/Tails > Amy/Espio People may like to use the wall jump in Heroes as the tiebreaker since Amy couldn't do it, but they forget that Espio has Ninja Weapons/Is a ninja. This or the fact that he's a chameleon? SEGA occasionally attributes multiple animal characteristics to respective characters so...maybe this is a case of that lol? :/  Hence why he just freaking sits there on the wall while Sonic and Shadow fall. We know this bc Sonic and Shadow are faster than him, but they only have a second or two before gravity catches up with them. That pretty much seals the deal that him sticking to the wall extensively isn't at all speed related. Ppl say "well he still did it." But who's to say the ninja tools aren't the only reason he's on the wall instead of following Amy's lead at all? All he has to do is touch the wall after all and boom, flcik of the wrist and he sticks on the wall. You can't tell the difference. Amy can touch the wall too. We know this, but unlike Espio, she doesn't have a means of staying there. Who's to say what would happen if Espio was in the same shoes? So yes, while one could argue that Espio is still fast enough to do the same thing Sonic and Shadow do and only uses is Ninja Tools/Skills as an added bonus, there is no evidence whatsoever for this standpoint and thus we're at a wall. The only way to confirm this as a tiebreaker would be to have him do the jump without the ninja tools or whatever else and we'd see whether he pulls an Amy or a Sonic and Shadow. But we can't do that so the only thing we know for now is that they're at equals. That is, Espio is at least as fast as Amy.

Mid

• Playable characters (including the likes of Chaos and Tikal in SA2B and Runners) not specified elsewhere on this list such as Silver, Cream, Cheese, Rouge, Omega, Knuckles, the Babylon Rouges, Big etc. etc. Even the Chao. This tier is so vague because we haven't really seen the speed of these characters displayed against each other to a fair and equal extent. Knuckles and Cream have had the most material by far but we still haven't seen enough of them in contrast to the other characters on those same terms, scenarios and platforms.

Bottom-Mid

• The Zeti

Bottom

• Eggman

That's the bar of what we can do as far as I'm concerned, but the real kicker here is "what's the bar on what's allowing these characters to get from point a to b?

Well, the question is "Sonic Speed Tiers". Or rank the characters in tiers of speed. It wouldn't make sense to have everyone on different grounds in the same ranking though, so we can assume it's rank the characters in tiers of speed. I mean Jet's not even on the Op's list despite his obvious speed, so that only further backs it up. Jet using his board in a race against Sonic is the same as a biker vs a runner. It's not the same thing lol. So just those characters at their balls to the wall barest, trucking it out. For example:

This is Jet the Hawk

 

This is the Type-J

 

It's not Jet the Hawk. It's not a part of him, his physiology. This is the same reason why Metal Sonic's engine goes but Jet's board doesn't. Metal Sonic's a robot. Just like Sonic can pump his legs, Metal Sonic can pump his engine until they run themselves into the ground. And you know what? That'll be them. With Jet, it's not him. It's his board. Jet is still a fully functioning body. He can still go lol.

 

So then you might ask, what about Silver's ESP?

-Yeah, it's physiological, but guess what? What happens when Silver burns out his ESP and ahs to wait to recover? He's still walking about fit as a fiddle doing everything else! Sooooo....that's an outlier. An oddball. It's the same thing as with Jet because it's not the same as with other characters. It's not a matter of "fairness", it's about getting a cohesive and accurate representation of who is the fastest. When you take the steroids or the bike away from a runner in a 100 meter dash to see who's the fastest, it's not just about arbitrary fairness, by far no. It's about the results.

 

So back to CC. This is also a no go for the same reason. That in addition to the distance thing. Obviously regardless of whether you agree that it's A.) a teleoprtation device or B.) you think that we just don't know what the fck is happening between point A and B, it can't be included not because of "fairness" but bc A.) it's not the same distance (which brings up back to the beginning of this post and stopping us there since we're missing the constant "d" component of comparing the speed of two objects. Constant, as no one can do the math for the comparison given two different distances since we don't have enough info) and B.) we don't know anything about how the technique works to even begin to say he's crossing the same distance. You also said that CC would still count if it had slowed down time around the user and allowed them to continue on the path at an unaffected pace. Well...no it wouldn't..because now the "time" component is being messed with.

That's all the reason for this stuff.

[FantasticMrRobb]

 I'm confused as to why everyone keeps talking about Chaos Control?

Sonic and Shadow are consistently said to be equal in speed and agility.

No, I can't say I agree with that. I mean, a lot of people may have said it, but that doesn't make it true.

Sonic and Shadow are both very fast, but overall Sonic is faster. I mean, it just feels kind of obvious and Shadow has even admitted it back in Sonic Chronicles.

[Nepenthe]

You keep making this assumption that because Shadow can teleport far distances it doesn't count, which is ludicrous because you can still make the comparison if you simply constrain CC to a set distance that Sonic also has to travel. Tell them both to simply get to a 100m finish line from a set start point. If Shadow warps there before Sonic runs there, he wins fair and square. You would have to then start throwing in stipulations like "running only" (at which point Shadow is disqualified again because he doesn't run, he skates herpaderp) but the original race would still have been fairly won as defined by the rules. 

Now you're using a stipulation about physiology as to why Jet's hoverboard doesn't count but Metal's engine does (which is weird because Metal doesn't actually have a physiology; he's a robot) on the basis of different methods of locomotion not being a one-to-one comparison (because, you know, being a robot and thus lacking the biological processes that naturally limit physical exertion and hovering over the ground via jet engine which eliminates dealing with the frictional forces of the ground is perfectly fair to compare to biological organism running) without reconciling the irony in the fact that Chaos Control is a part of Shadow's physiology too. And again, we go back to the fact that he skates and glides too, which isn't equivalent to running either because not touching the ground makes things a hell of a lot more efficient than running does. 

So if Metal is in the race (and I don't think he should be because A.) Robot, B.) Flying =/= Running, and C.) I don't like him), I take us back to Jet's hoverboard to remind you that his prowess with a board is what allows him to be a proficient and fast rider. It doesn't matter that anyone else can get on it anymore than me getting on a skateboard doesn't mean I'm magically imbued with Tony Hawk powers. Like you said, it's about skill and results. If Jet can use his board to get up to speed and mop the floor with a few people, then so be it.

And another thing about this "physiology" rule that bothers me is the fact that Shadow's shoes aren't apart of his body either. They're as much a tool as Jet's hoverboard. Take them away and we honestly have no concept concerning how fast he could go. So how the hell is anyone ranking him?

Simply put: These rules aren't scientifically or logically consistent.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Nepenthe

[GUILD]

You keep making this assumption that because Shadow can teleport far distances it doesn't count,

 I never made.dude what the fuck are you even reading. I said because we don't even know whether they're traveling the same distance and bc it's "warping time and space", probably fucking not.

which is ludicrous because you can still make the comparison if you simply constrain CC to a set distance that Sonic also has to travel. Tell them both to simply get to a 100m finish line from a set start point. If Shadow warps there before Sonic runs there, he wins fair and square.

Ok seriously what the jizz? You're making this point after all this?:

You would have to then start throwing in stipulations like "running only" (at which point Shadow is disqualified again because he doesn't run, he skates herpaderp) but the original race would still have been fairly won as defined by the rules.

It's a commonly known fact that Shadow's "skates" aren't the sole reason for his speed, so this is in your post why? At the very least, Jet is always said to rival Sonic's speeds "on his extreme gear". Shadow is always said to just match them straight up.

Now you're using a stipulation about physiology as to why Jet's hoverboard doesn't count but Metal's engine does (which is weird because Metal doesn't actually have a physiology; he's a robot) on the basis of different methods of locomotion not being a one-to-one comparison (because, you know, being a robot and thus lacking the biological processes that naturally limit physical exertion and hovering over the ground via jet engine which eliminates dealing with the frictional forces of the ground is perfectly fair to compare to biological organism running)

And again, we go back to the fact that he skates and glides too, which isn't equivalent to running either because not touching the ground makes things a hell of a lot more efficient than running does. 

...And now you're applying fairness. Something we both have established isn't a factor. And friction..really. In a series like this, you're applying friction as a serious margin of difference between Metal Sonic (or Tails) and anyone else in their class? With these guys, it really doesn't matter. That's easily one of the least relevant factors.

without reconciling the irony in the fact that Chaos Control is a part of Shadow's physiology too.

So you forgot to finish the reading or what?

So if Metal is in the race (and I don't think he should be because A.) Robot,

Last time I checked, Metal Sonic isn't invincible and he isn't a chaos emerald. Just because he's a robot doesn't mean there's some infinite stamina advantage over the other characters. When's the last time you've ever seen any of our characters seriously burnt out over running..? It's not a matter of stamina. They just don't have it. I can have all the stamina of Usain Bolt, but I'm not beating him in a race.

 

B.) Flying =/= Running,

So we should take Tails out then..? Even when he hovers for seemingly forever but when he takes to the sky, he tuckers out after a few seconds?

and C.) I don't like him),

Alright.

I take us back to Jet's hoverboard to remind you that his prowess with a board is what allows him to be a proficient and fast rider. It doesn't matter that anyone else can get on it anymore than me getting on a skateboard doesn't mean I'm magically imbued with Tony Hawk powers.

Okay, but that's irrelevant. It's not like it's a matter of skill. We're just asking who's the fastest. Skill's not why I said the board doesn't count..why would you think that

Like you said, it's about skill and results.

I didn't say that. ._____. I said results, from the performances of characters in and of their own physical makeup, performing on the same situational and conditional grounds. There is no other way to  accurately do it lmao. I mean a reliance on the character's base ability to go the fastest. Ability in the way that if that were to be exhausted, they're out. If Metal Sonic runs his engine down, he's done. If Sonic somehow runs himself unconcious, he's done. If Tails can't spin his tails anymore, we KNOW he's done even if his feet are still while at top speed. You know what I mean? That is the only true sign of how fast a character is in and of itself.

If Jet can use his board to get up to speed and mop the floor with a few people, then so be it.

I guess here we're just agreeing to disagree then lol.

And another thing about this "physiology" rule that bothers me is the fact that Shadow's shoes aren't apart of his body either. They're as much a tool as Jet's hoverboard. Take them away and we honestly have no concept concerning how fast he could go. So how the hell is anyone ranking him?

What? 0_o Welcome to the Sonic franchise.??

Simply put: These rules aren't scientifically or logically consistent.

Hmm. I feel we're getting too far away from the point. Where the fck even are we. The point was that CC can't legitimately be included.

 

[Sega DogTagz]

Conjecture at best? Literally the only game that "seem to show Shadow/Lancelot moving through the intervening space when using Chaos Control rather than" is Shadow the Hedgehog. In every other installment, "simply jumping from start to finish." is literally all we see.

Not exactly bro.

In addition to Shth, you could count SA2, which shows Shadow track Sonic as he blows past him in their introduction cut scene, while Sonic is quick enough to track Shadow's movement as well. Can't do that if your jumping from a to b via warp. Shadow is seen walking up to and decapitating Silver in 06, again, can't do that with a warp mechanic. That's a clear time slow down trick. In Sonic Heroes, Shadow's chaos Control quite literally stops time via Team Blast, which lasts for a while while he and his buddies continue to interact with their environment. That doesn't sound like jumping from start to finish to me.

There are plenty of examples where it is shown to be something other than a warp jump. If you ignore those moments you are just fooling yourself. Trying to pin down exactly what CC can do is impossible because its all over the place. Lets just say is bends the rules of time and space to his will and that is that. We can't really prove any more or less.

 

I'm liking the love Blaze is getting in here. While it is clear that she is a step slower than Sonic (thank you Sonic Rush multiplayer)  she's still pretty high up the charts. As one of the few characters that can flat out boost, she should hold that prestigious ranking. Might even want to giver her a few bonus points for all that feline agility. Gal is quick.

 

Edited December 3, 2015 by Sega DogTagz

[GUILD]

Not exactly bro.

In addition to Shth, you could count SA2, which shows Shadow track Sonic as he blows past him in their introduction cut scene, while Sonic is quick enough to track Shadow's movement as well. Can't do that if your jumping from a to b via warp.

I'm 99% sure that was just Shadow reappearing though. In fact, Sonic says explcilty after that "Hey it's not his speed he must be using the chaos emerald to warp."  

 

.______.

Shadow is seen walking up to and decapitating Silver in 06, again, can't do that with a warp mechanic.That's a clear time slow down trick. In Sonic Heroes, Shadow's chaos Control quite literally stops time via Team Blast, which lasts for a while while he and his buddies continue to interact with their environment. That doesn't sound like jumping from start to finish to me.

That's cause it's a different utilization of CC. It's more than just warping your space/teleportation. We know it lets you warp time too, which isn't the CC we're talking about. We're talking about the teleportation.

There are plenty of examples where it is shown to be something other than a warp jump. If you ignore those moments you are just fooling yourself. Trying to pin down exactly what CC can do is impossible because its all over the place. Lets just say is bends the rules of time and space to his will and that is that. We can't really prove any more or less.

Ah I see. You've misunderstood the entire argument. We're not discussing the different things that CC can do. We know it can warp both time and space. We're discussing whether CC's space warping/teleportation ability is really that: teleportation or a wormhole type technique (which it clearly is eg. Space Colony Ark, the Biolizard and the Black Comet >.>), or simply not teleportation at all, but actually just manipulating space in order to initiate an instantaneous shifting of one body over a fixed distance as well the implications of that in terms of a speed ranking.

I'm liking the love Blaze is getting in here. While it is clear that she is a step slower than Sonic (thank you Sonic Rush multiplayer)  she's still pretty high up the charts. As one of the few characters that can flat out boost, she should hold that prestigious ranking. Might even want to giver her a few bonus points for all that feline agility. Gal is quick.

Yep. She's a pretty great character. Perhaps the best female in the series.

 

[Nepenthe]

First: "We don't know whether or not they're traveling the same distance?" This literally means nothing in terms of the question. If you put every character at a start line, set a finish line, tell them to simply get there, and Shadow uses Chaos Control to warp the distance, he's used his own physiology to close the distance faster than most other characters. If he does this in a measurable time (and there's been plenty of instances where the time could be theoretically measurable when we've seen Chaos Control up close), it means you can still calculate a speed, meaning it's fair game unless you start throwing in a bunch of bullshit rules that discounts him from using it.

Speaking of bullshit rules: I'm actually the one arguing for a free-for-all, no-holds-barred contest. You're the one who keeps trying to invoke some weird sense of parity by trying to make all these justifications for why certain things count but other things similar to the things that count don't suddenly count (which is why I'm harping on the definition of physiology too), like you did right here--

Jet using his board in a race against Sonic is the same as a biker vs a runner

-- meaning I'm assuming you actually do give some kind of a shit about "fairness," whatever sense of fairness you're actually operating under. And yes, if hovering doesn't count, then you would have to discount Tails from using his tails to glide across the ground. Because gliding isn't running (hence why I went after Shadow's skates). Just like "biking isn't running." Or boarding isn't running. There's a disparity in each of these that doesn't put them on an equivalent keel. That's why I've concluded your rules to be bullshit.

And no, we literally do not know how fast Shadow is without his hover skates, because again, frictional forces concerning the ground, the angle, its composition, and other factors do have an effect on speed. And also, we haven't seen him run before in any real canon sense next to Sonic to gauge whether or not he can. You can't make a conclusion without evidence, and you brushing that off as "lol it's fantasy" makes no sense in hindsight when you were trying to argue down Chaos Control from a context of how it even worked in the first place, using weird vague science to try and say why it didn't utilize "movement", whatever the hell that even means.

My overall point is, you saying Chaos Control doesn't count means fucking nothing until you can get some rules that make either logical or scientific sense. You've done neither. And even then your rules don't matter in a topic that asks everyone to personally rank characters by how much distance they can simply cover using the talents at their disposal, using whatever criteria we all wish to. Tell OP to figure out a way to parse this topic down to some universal rules that actually makes sense, and sure, I'll play ball. But until then, Shadow can keep stunting.

[Muscles Maximum]

I was being vague because I didn't think a topic like this needed rules for a race or anything (also it was my first topic). I think it's interesting to read people's interpretations of speed and what should and shouldn't count. I wouldn't count teleporting or using a flying skateboard, personally, but if people want to, that's cool. I would count Shadow on his skates just because he is always wearing them. They're trademark to him, he's never seen without them. It's practically an extension of himself, I guess. That's just me though. 

Sonic can use chaos control too so either way it doesn't even matter.

Edited December 3, 2015 by monkokaio

[GUILD]

Relax, it's not that complicated.

First: "We don't know whether or not they're traveling the same distance?" This literally means nothing in terms of the question. If you put every character at a start line, set a finish line, tell them to simply get there, and Shadow uses Chaos Control to warp the distance, he's used his own physiology to close the distance faster than most other characters. If he does this in a measurable time (and there's been plenty of instances where the time could be theoretically measurable when we've seen Chaos Control up close), it means you can still calculate a speed, meaning it's fair game unless you start throwing in a bunch of bullshit rules that discounts him from using it.

 No, it means you can calculate the time. You don't know the distance he traveled, because like you said, "We don't know how CC works". This is not that complicated.

Speaking of bullshit rules: I'm actually the one arguing for a free-for-all, no-holds-barred contest. 

Congratulations, I understand that. That's what I'm telling you doesn't make any damn sense in case you somehow forgot within the past taxing one page of dialogue.

You're the one who keeps trying to invoke some weird sense of parity by trying to make all these justifications for why certain things count but other things similar to the things that count don't suddenly count (which is why I'm harping on the definition of physiology too), like you did right here--

So essentially, I'm trying to establish some sort of equal grounds on which to make a conclusion of speed (seeing as equal grounds are necessary to make the conclusion) by laying out ground rules and boundaries that filter out qualities that would derail said equality and it's a problem. Presumably..because you don't understand them?

-- meaning I'm assuming you actually do give some kind of a shit about "fairness," whatever sense of fairness you're actually operating under. And yes, if hovering doesn't count, then you would have to discount Tails from using his tails to glide across the ground. Because gliding isn't running (hence why I went after Shadow's skates). Just like "biking isn't running." Or boarding isn't running. There's a disparity in each of these that doesn't put them on an equivalent keel. That's why I've concluded your rules to be bullshit.

So the effort disparity between Biking and Running for humans who tire after a mile is equal to the frictional disparity between Hovering and Running for these beings who never tire at all. Something doesn't seem right here.

And no, we literally do not know how fast Shadow is without his hover skates, because again, frictional forces concerning the ground, the angle, its composition, and other factors do have an effect on speed. And also, we haven't seen him run before in any real canon sense next to Sonic to gauge whether or not he can.

I guess game aren't canon then? Much more the adventure ones? Yeah...that his hover shoes are just that, hover shoes, means that the only advantage he's getting is a loss of friction (something that Sonic fights effortlessly on a daily basis and neither Metal Sonic or Tails have to deal with) and a bit of jet propulsion. Not to mention the fact that he's still moving his feet ridiculously fast, much, much faster than he does when skating. That info in combo with the fact that Shadow does know how to run, tells me their isn't much of a disparity at all between his running and skating speed. At the more obvious side of the spectrum, Shadow can boost in the exact same manner as Modern Sonic can. The fact that his same topaz aura is coating him in the exact same way that his homing attack and spindash do exactly as Sonic's blue does him, proves that it's coming from Shadow's fucking body, regardless of whether or not he chooses to hover using his boots while doing so. So...

You can't make a conclusion without evidence, and you brushing that off as "lol it's fantasy" makes no sense in hindsight when you were trying to argue down Chaos Control from a context of how it even worked in the first place, using weird vague science to try and say why it didn't utilize "movement", whatever the hell that even means. My overall point is, you saying Chaos Control doesn't count means fucking nothing until you can get some rules that make either logical or scientific sense. You've done neither.

You are without a doubt, a certified idiot. That or you have selective reading and/or are trolling. What does the following mean to you? If you answer "idk, idgi or it doesn't make any real sense" I rest my case.:

CHAOS CONTROL DOESN'T COUNT

• To determine how fast something is compared to another thing, we need to calculate its speed compared to another thing.
• To calculate the speed, we need to set an A to B distance for both things. Then we would set both things on that A to B course and see how long it takes each thing to compete said course, that is, get from A to B.
• If one or more of said things complete the course, or gets from A to B in a certain amount of time, but we have no idea of the means by which they reached B from A, we cannot assuredly determine the distance traveled. We know the distance between point A and B, but we do not know the distance traveled.
• If we have the time, but cannot determine the distance, we cannot determine the speed.
• If we cannot determine the speed, we cannot claim how fast it is.
• In Chaos Control, we are currently unclear on the means by which the user gets from a point A to a point B.
• Therefore, with Chaos Control, we cannot determine the distance traveled from A to B. We know the distance between point A and B, but we do not know the distance that the user traveled.
• We cannot determine the distance traveled with Chaos Control
• If we cannot determine the distance traveled with Chaos Control, we cannot determine the speed.
• If we cannot determine the speed of a user using Chaos Control, we cannot claim how fast the user is going.
• The OP asks for a ranking on fastest Sonic characters.
• We cannot determine how fast a character is going when using Chaos Control.
• We cannot include Chaos Control in a ranking of fastest characters.

And even then your rules don't matter in a topic that asks everyone to personally rank characters by how much distance they can simply cover using the talents at their disposal, using whatever criteria we all wish to.

Ok but what the fuck are you reading? At any rate, I wasn't saying that anyone had to or "really should have" adhere to anything I said, didn't say anything I said was objective except for the fact that Chaos Control can't and shouldn't be used. You're the one acting as if you have to fight me on every single other "personal point" such as other than that I make like a fucking crazy ex.

Tell OP to figure out a way to parse this topic down to some universal rules that actually makes sense, and sure, I'll play ball. But until then, Shadow can keep stunting.

Well, the OP and Title are pretty clearly asking for a ranking of the Sonic Characters with the capability for the highest levels of speed. That means, grab some characters and hypothesize the difference between their results were you to apply "speed=distance/time" to them, obviously using the same conditions for each case as it is the only way to appropriately apply that formula in a way that both correctly determines speed over an equal distance and answers the OP's question. If you need some sort of clarification further than that, you have clear issues.

I was being vague because I didn't think a topic like this needed rules for a race or anything (also it was my first topic). I think it's interesting to read people's interpretations of speed and what should and shouldn't count. I wouldn't count teleporting or using a flying skateboard, personally, but if people want to, that's cool. I would count Shadow on his skates just because he is always wearing them. They're trademark to him, he's never seen without them. It's practically an extension of himself, I guess. That's just me though. 

Sonic can use chaos control too so either way it doesn't even matter.

Welp. There you go.