Sonic Speed Tiers

[Sparky]

Sonic is meant to be the fastest thing alive. That is a fact. Shadow is meant to share/match Sonic's speed and agility. That is also a fact. 

Sonic's speed is consistently described as unrivaled and second to none, and Shadow's speed is consistently described as rivaling and matching Sonic's easily.

[blade57331]

Sonic is meant to be the fastest thing alive. That is a fact. Shadow is meant to share/match Sonic's speed and agility. That is also a fact. 

Sonic's speed is consistently described as unrivaled and second to none, and Shadow's speed is consistently described as rivaling and matching Sonic's easily.

And Knuckles is suppose to be one of the strongest character and yet Amy can knock him out with one bitch-slap as it has been shown in Generations.

Just because someone wrote/told something about character doesn't make it fact. What has been SHOWN is a fact.

Edited December 19, 2015 by blade57331

[Sparky]

And Knuckles is suppose to be one of the strongest character and yet Amy can knock him out with one bitch-slap as it has been shown in Generations.

Just because someone wrote something about character doesn't make it fact. What has been SHOWN is a fact.

Knuckles' strength isn't lessened by Amy knocking him into a tree. He only weighs 88lb. 

Sonic and Shadow's speed has been SHOWN to be equal within the games. The Rival Battle in Generations is built around their equality, they needed to use Power Cores in order to gain the boost needed to overpower the other.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Sparky

[blade57331]

Knuckles' strength isn't lessended by Amy knocking him into a tree. He only weighs 88lb. 

Oh yes, it is.

You know why? Because Knuckles did exactly the same to her, by slightly pushing her away in Lost world and she only move like few inches, the comparison of their strenght is quite of clear here.

Yeah and guess what. In those games Shadow TOO is using his rocket boots. So it hasn't been shown.

Edited December 19, 2015 by blade57331

[Nepenthe]

However gravity is part of space and therefore can be warped. 

So in your definition, Super Sonic is Chaos Control because it warps Sonic's body and energy output which are both part of space? And indeed, considering the Chaos Emeralds basically have unlimited energy reserves (which in itself is against thermodynamic laws and thus warps space) and in nearly every use have done things that are completely outside of the scope of actual physics, isn't this wide of a definition playing right into my implication that, under your terms, pretty much everything the Emeralds can do is "Chaos Control?"

Edited December 19, 2015 by Nepenthe

[Blaze349]

Sonic is meant to be the fastest thing alive. That is a fact. Shadow is meant to share/match Sonic's speed and agility. That is also a fact. 

Sonic's speed is consistently described as unrivaled and second to none, and Shadow's speed is consistently described as rivaling and matching Sonic's easily.

Again...fan-fodder...You keep saying this but when have you ever seen Shadow do anything that rivals Sonic's speed and agility?

'Sonic's speed is consistently described as unrivaled and second to none, and Shadow's speed is consistently described as rivaling and matching Sonic's easily.'

You just contradicted yourself...

 

Oh yes, it is.

You know why? Because Knuckles did exactly the same to her, by slightly pushing her away in Lost world and she only move like few inches, the comparison of their strenght is quite of clear here.

Yeah and guess what. In those games Shadow TOO is using his rocket boots. So it hasn't been shown.

Knuckles does have something called manners y'know...

So in your definition, Super Sonic is Chaos Control because it warps Sonic's body and energy output which are both part of space? And indeed, considering the Chaos Emeralds basically have unlimited energy reserves (which in itself is against thermodynamic laws and thus warps space) and in nearly every use have done things that are completely outside of the scope of actual physics, isn't this wide of a definition playing right into my implication that, under your terms, pretty much everything the Emeralds can do is "Chaos Control?"

Nope only things you control the emeralds to do.

Thats not true, a lot of the things you have been proclaiming in this thread about shadow, aren't true and have been ignoring his existence outside of sa2, to satisfy some quill resuming contest between power levels. 

 Like? BTW  your username shows a lot of bias.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Blaze349

[Salamander]

Sonic is meant to be the fastest thing alive. That is a fact. Shadow is meant to share/match Sonic's speed and agility. That is also a fact. 

Sonic's speed is consistently described as unrivaled and second to none, and Shadow's speed is consistently described as rivaling and matching Sonic's easily.

Good, so we've established that official material is consistently self-contradictory on the subject and thus cannot be used as reliable evidence.  That's useful to know; thanks.

[Shadowlax]

 Like? BTW  your username shows a lot of bias.

Eh, EH one my username isn't my username because shadow even if he is actually my favorite. Its actually because of shadowloo, from street fighter. So... have fun with that . Two a lot of the things you are bringing up are largey incorrect and ignoring shadow existed outside of sonic adventure 2. For example the claim that say shadow is less durable the sonic, when infact sonic can be shot and killed, where as shadow can just shrug off bullets. He does it in the intro of his game and  bunch of other explanations for his characters you have come up with/dug up that haven't actually been relevant to his character for years. And trying to suggest everything he did afterward was... " fanservice" instead of part of his character. Along with that trying to change the definition of chaos control, while loose, everyone kind of had a definition off. Instead of bringing facts to an argument trying to change peoples opinions or change peoples views, you are trying to change the things people are arguing about. Which falls apart when folks call you out on that 

Actually, it's Sonic everywhere, not just the comics.

Depends on what you mean by naturally fast, because if you mean " things the charater does to go fast, like tails's tails then shadow's teleportation is something he can do... which teleportation is infact faster than all speed ever because its not speed its displacement.Sorta of a blinking situation, my argument before is should that count, or rather is that fair, I don't know. But it something to think about. 

Edited December 20, 2015 by Shadowlax

[blade57331]

Knuckles does have something called manners y'know...

I don't buy it. He was growing up all alone 16 years. Manners are like one of the last things he knows.

 ↓Edit: Yeah! Keep ignoring counter-arguments Sparky. That surely make yours "facts" legit.  Way to go!.

Edited December 20, 2015 by blade57331

[Sparky]

According to the old Sonic Central website, Cream is said to be nearly as fast as Sonic. 

Good, so we've established that official material is consistently self-contradictory on the subject and thus cannot be used as reliable evidence.  That's useful to know; thanks.

It may sound contradictory, but it is still a fact that is supported in Shadow's playable appearances. He shares Sonic's speed and agility, and can do the Spin Dash, Homing Attack, Wall Jumps, Boosting and even stuff like the Lightspeed Dash and Lightspeed Attack just as well and just as fast as Sonic can. 

[Bowbowis]

On the topic of Shadow's speed I'd like to bring up two things that haven't really been mentioned yet. First is that, as per '06 Shadow is deliberately handicapping himself so that he doesn't burn out too quickly (Source: "Showdown with Mephiles" cutscene), meaning that what we observe to be his upper limit is not necessarily the same as his actual upper limit. The second is skill in Sonic Battle explicitly states, and I quote, "With help from his Air Shoes, [Shadow] can run faster than Sonic." (Source: In-game description of the "Shadow Run" skill-card), which suggests that the Air Shoes are intended to give him an edge over Sonic rather than being a necessity for matching him. Furthermore by taking both bits of information into account we could speculate that the Air Shoes are normally used to allow Shadow to maintain his natural top speed while minimizing his energy consumption. Also can we get a source on this whole "Shadow says Sonic is faster" thing?

 

On a semi-related note Sonic Battle also gives us the closest thing we have to a description of how Chaos Control works by way of the games descriptions of Chaos Burst and its aerial variant, which is as follows:

"Shadow's ground power. If the R button is pressed, he hides in distorted space." (Source: In-game description of "Chaos Burst" skill-card)

 "Shadow's air power. He attacks opponents by creating distorted space with Chaos Control." (Source: In-game description of "Air C. Burst" skill-card)

When executing move in-game Shadow disappears using Chaos Control and then attacks with Chaos Blast (or a similar technique) as he reappears elsewhere. This, in conjunction with the descriptions of the move above, leads to the conclusion that warping via Chaos Control involves the user tucking themselves away in a pocket of distorted space. Granted it's not a step by step walkthrough of the process but it's something related to how the technique works.

 

And Knuckles is suppose to be one of the strongest character and yet Amy can knock him out with one bitch-slap as it has been shown in Generations.

Oh yes, it is.

You know why? Because Knuckles did exactly the same to her, by slightly pushing her away in Lost world and she only move like few inches, the comparison of their strenght is quite of clear here.

This is a ridiculous argument and you know it. The reason Amy didn't go flying is the same reason Rouge's hand wasn't reduced to a mangled pulp when he saved her in SA2: he wasn't using his full strength because he wasn't trying to injure her. Saying he's too weak to move Amy based on that one example is utterly stupid when he's previously been shown lifting, smashing, throwing, pushing, pulling, or otherwise moving objects that are far heavier than she is (Sources: Pretty much every appearance Knuckles made prior to Colors).

Also you should know better than to use Lost World as an example. Anything regarding Knuckles in that game is to be disregarded with extreme prejudice.

[blade57331]

This is a ridiculous argument and you know it. The reason Amy didn't go flying is the same reason Rouge's hand wasn't reduced to a mangled pulp when he saved her in SA2: he wasn't using his full strength because he wasn't trying to injure her. Saying he's too weak to move Amy based on that one example is thoroughly ridiculous when he's previously been shown lifting, smashing, throwing, pushing, pulling, or otherwise moving objects that are far heavier than she is (Sources: Pretty much every appearance Knuckles made prior to Colors).

Also you should know better than to use Lost World as an example. Anything regarding Knuckles in that game is to be disregarded with extreme prejudice.

Yeah it is ridiculous . You know why? Because Knuckles character is all about only being ridiculous and nothing more. Amy didn't seem to putting much effort neither.

Ow, you want more examples? How about when in Rush Blaze owned him by doing almost nothing? How about the time when Shade beat him with little support? How about Rouge? Who troll him and proving being above him in everything? How about Sonic X where even Cream apparently can overwhelm him.(I won't even mention Sonic Boom)You notice pattern? He is punching bag for girls of the series.

Edited December 20, 2015 by blade57331

[Sparky]

On the topic of Shadow's speed I'd like to bring up two things that haven't really been mentioned yet. First is that, as per '06 Shadow is deliberately handicapping himself so that he doesn't burn out too quickly (Source: "Showdown with Mephiles" cutscene), meaning that what we observe to be his upper limit is not necessarily the same as his actual upper limit. The second is skill in Sonic Battle explicitly states, and I quote, "With help from his Air Shoes, [Shadow] can run faster than Sonic." (Source: In-game description of the "Shadow Run" skill-card), which suggests that the Air Shoes are intended to give him an edge over Sonic rather than being a necessity for matching him. Furthermore by taking both bits of information into account we could speculate that the Air Shoes are normally used to allow Shadow to maintain his natural top speed while minimizing his energy consumption. Also can we get a source on this whole "Shadow says Sonic is faster" thing?

 

On a semi-related note Sonic Battle also gives us the closest thing we have to a description of how Chaos Control works by way of the games descriptions of Chaos Burst and its aerial variant, which is as follows:

"Shadow's ground power. If the R button is pressed, he hides in distorted space." (Source: In-game description of "Chaos Burst" skill-card)

 "Shadow's air power. He attacks opponents by creating distorted space with Chaos Control." (Source: In-game description of "Air C. Burst" skill-card)

When executing move in-game Shadow disappears using Chaos Control and then attacks with Chaos Blast (or a similar technique) as he reappears elsewhere. This, in conjunction with the descriptions of the move above, leads to the conclusion that warping via Chaos Control involves the user tucking themselves away in a pocket of distorted space. Granted it's not a step by step walkthrough of the process but it's something related to how the technique works.

 

This is a ridiculous argument and you know it. The reason Amy didn't go flying is the same reason Rouge's hand wasn't reduced to a mangled pulp when he saved her in SA2: he wasn't using his full strength because he wasn't trying to injure her. Saying he's too weak to move Amy based on that one example is utterly stupid when he's previously been shown lifting, smashing, throwing, pushing, pulling, or otherwise moving objects that are far heavier than she is (Sources: Pretty much every appearance Knuckles made prior to Colors).

Also you should know better than to use Lost World as an example. Anything regarding Knuckles in that game is to be disregarded with extreme prejudice.

It's in Sonic Chronicles. ""Sonic: You can't outrun me, Shadow! /Shadow: Maybe not. But I can outfight you!" He admits he can't "outrun" Sonic, which doesn't automatically make him slower. If you are the same speed as someone, then you won't be able to outrun them. 

[Diogenes]

Yeah it is ridiculous . You know why? Because Knuckles character is all about only being ridiculous and nothing more. Amy didn't seem to putting much effort neither.

Ow, you want more examples? How about when in Rush Blaze owned him by doing almost nothing? How about the time when Shade beat him with little support? How about Rouge? Who troll him and proving being above him in everything? How about Sonic X where even Cream apparently can overwhelm him. You notice pattern? He punching bag for girls of the series.

These are called "jokes". And they only work as jokes because we all know that Knuckles is actually very strong. The contrast, the betrayal of expectations, is what makes it funny.

[blade57331]

These are called "jokes". And they only work as jokes because we all know that Knuckles is actually very strong. The contrast, the betrayal of expectations, is what makes it funny.

That's what I'm saying, Knuckles is just a joke. His strength is a joke. And not all those moments were played for comedy.

His strength isn't believable when it's displayed this way.

[Badnik Mechanic]

His strength isn't believable when it's displayed this way.

Says who?

[blade57331]

Says who?

Knuckles himself:P Considering how much he "proved" himself.

Edited December 20, 2015 by blade57331

[Dantemustdie00]

And Knuckles is suppose to be one of the strongest character and yet Amy can knock him out with one bitch-slap as it has been shown in Generations.

Just because someone wrote/told something about character doesn't make it fact. What has been SHOWN is a fact.

Isn't that just done for comedy effect much like Nami beating up Rubber boy Luffy with her bare fist and other typical loud mouth anime girl and dumb boy moments? That's what I assume anyway with anything relating to Knuckles and Amy.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Dantemustdie00

[Blaze349]

According to the old Sonic Central website, Cream is said to be nearly as fast as Sonic. 

It may sound contradictory, but it is still a fact that is supported in Shadow's playable appearances. He shares Sonic's speed and agility, and can do the Spin Dash, Homing Attack, Wall Jumps, Boosting and even stuff like the Lightspeed Dash and Lightspeed Attack just as well and just as fast as Sonic can. 

Spin dash is something all hedgehogs can do, everyone in heroes could do homing attack, Knuckles for one can do wall jumps as well as espio, boosting is the power of rings, Shadow's lightspeed dash is just a mechanic because Sonic Team scripted them the same way.

BTW Sonic does does things better than everyone else in the franchise(they are his games).

On the topic of Shadow's speed I'd like to bring up two things that haven't really been mentioned yet. First is that, as per '06 Shadow is deliberately handicapping himself so that he doesn't burn out too quickly (Source: "Showdown with Mephiles" cutscene), meaning that what we observe to be his upper limit is not necessarily the same as his actual upper limit. The second is skill in Sonic Battle explicitly states, and I quote, "With help from his Air Shoes, [Shadow] can run faster than Sonic." (Source: In-game description of the "Shadow Run" skill-card), which suggests that the Air Shoes are intended to give him an edge over Sonic rather than being a necessity for matching him. Furthermore by taking both bits of information into account we could speculate that the Air Shoes are normally used to allow Shadow to maintain his natural top speed while minimizing his energy consumption. Also can we get a source on this whole "Shadow says Sonic is faster" thing?

 

On a semi-related note Sonic Battle also gives us the closest thing we have to a description of how Chaos Control works by way of the games descriptions of Chaos Burst and its aerial variant, which is as follows:

"Shadow's ground power. If the R button is pressed, he hides in distorted space." (Source: In-game description of "Chaos Burst" skill-card)

 "Shadow's air power. He attacks opponents by creating distorted space with Chaos Control." (Source: In-game description of "Air C. Burst" skill-card)

When executing move in-game Shadow disappears using Chaos Control and then attacks with Chaos Blast (or a similar technique) as he reappears elsewhere. This, in conjunction with the descriptions of the move above, leads to the conclusion that warping via Chaos Control involves the user tucking themselves away in a pocket of distorted space. Granted it's not a step by step walkthrough of the process but it's something related to how the technique works.

 

 

Hmm 06 as a source? Whatever. Shadow taking of his rings is the same as Metal's Overdrive. It uses more energy but drains him to the point of exhaustion. Plus when he did take them off his speed didn't even come close to Sonic...AND HE WAS BOOSTING. Now Sonic Battle? Ok whatever...

Chaos burst seem to make Shadow distort space to hide Shadow's body.  Or it means he teleports somewhere else under distorted space.

Regardless its still Chaos energy not Shadow doing it.

Besides you guys seem to ignoring the fact that you've never seen Shadow run in the games. Just use his jet boots...

That's what I'm saying, Knuckles is just a joke. His strength is a joke. And not all those moments were played for comedy.

His strength isn't believable when it's displayed this way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u62uuCipjFo

Knocks the emeralds out of Mr-Invincible with a single punch...

[Sega DogTagz]

I find all this talk belittling Knux's power amusing. So what if Amy can smack him around, his ability to take a punch or stand his ground has no bearing whatsoever on his ability to stand at or near the top of the series strength tier. Forget OHKO-ing the vaunted Super Sonic, this is the same Echidna who uppercut's Sonic into low orbit during the end of their boss battle in Sonic Pocket Adventure. Seriously, Sonic takes one on the chin in the Aquatic Ruins themed zone and lands on Tails biplane en-route to Eggman's sky fortress.

There is no ground to question Knux's power. He's so big and muscle-y. end of discussion.

 

Back to speed, how do we factor spindashing into all of this? More than a few games have thrown it out there that Sonic and co's top speed increases when under the influence of that signature move. In SA1 and SA2, spindashing was much faster than running (also the only way to outpace Metal) and the same was true in the classics for the most part. Sonic and Shadow are prolific spindashers but should we dock characters like Blaze and Espio for running the spinning top?

 

 

 

 

[FantasticMrRobb]

Knuckles himself:P

k.

Where's your source for Knuckles admitting this?

[blade57331]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u62uuCipjFo

Knocks the emeralds out of Mr-Invincible with a single punch...

I find all this talk belittling Knux's power amusing. So what if Amy can smack him around, his ability to take a punch or stand his ground has no bearing whatsoever on his ability to stand at or near the top of the series strength tier. Forget OHKO-ing the vaunted Super Sonic, this is the same Echidna who uppercut's Sonic into low orbit during the end of their boss battle in Sonic Pocket Adventure. Seriously, Sonic takes one on the chin in the Aquatic Ruins themed zone and lands on Tails biplane en-route to Eggman's sky fortress.

There is no ground to question Knux's power. He's so big and muscle-y. end of discussion.

 Which was like when? Over 20 years ago? Plus according to the Iizuka/God classic games aren't canon. So it's rather highly questionable to say "this is the same Echidna".

k.

Where's your source for Knuckles admitting this?

Read all comment or ignore it.

 ↓Edit: By "Knuckles himself" and further sentence(and some other comments) I implied, that the way Knuckles is portrayed in games speaks for itself.

Edited December 21, 2015 by blade57331

[Badnik Mechanic]

Read all comment or ignore it.

Or you could just tell us where you got that from since I can't find it either.

[Sega DogTagz]

 Which was like when? Over 20 years ago? Plus according to the Iizuka/God classic games aren't canon. So it's rather highly questionable to say "this is the same Echidna".

You want to play that card? Really?!

because I'm pretty sure Sonic 4 kills that notion as it is a clear and direct sequel to ever classic Sonic CD. Pretty hard to build a sequel to something that isn't cannon.

 

I'm not going to de-rail this speed topic by listing modern era examples of Knux flexing his biceps. If you're only response to him being weak is to discount his past feats of strength because they happened in the earlier part of the franchises life span then your beyond any reasoning I can give you. We should probably strip Mickey Mouse of his steam boating license and take away all the trophies won by sports franchises prior to 1995. They are all clearly irrelevant in 2015.

 

 

-

[Shadowlax]

 

Spin dash is something all hedgehogs can do, everyone in heroes could do homing attack, Knuckles for one can do wall jumps as well as espio, boosting is the power of rings, Shadow's lightspeed dash is just a mechanic because Sonic Team scripted them the same way.

BTW Sonic does does things better than everyone else in the franchise(they are his games).

Hmm 06 as a source? Whatever. Shadow taking of his rings is the same as Metal's Overdrive. It uses more energy but drains him to the point of exhaustion. Plus when he did take them off his speed didn't even come close to Sonic...AND HE WAS BOOSTING. Now Sonic Battle? Ok whatever...

Chaos burst seem to make Shadow distort space to hide Shadow's body.  Or it means he teleports somewhere else under distorted space.

Regardless its still Chaos energy not Shadow doing it.

Besides you guys seem to ignoring the fact that you've never seen Shadow run in the games. Just use his jet boots...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u62uuCipjFo

Knocks the emeralds out of Mr-Invincible with a single punch...

Ok in order. 

Sonic can't do things better than everyone else in the franchise, that's literally untrue. That's literally untrue, its literally the bases for sonic boom in its entirely.That's actually a lie. 

Did you just, " whatever" a source? Also when did sonic and shadow ever race with shadow inhibitor ringless?Along with that, i don't think his inhibitor rings effect speed, so I don't even know what that's being talked about. ,

Next, I don't think its that, it seems to be rather instant. While I would like to believe shadow could drag someone to a " nega" dimension like night crawler and apocalypse. Shadow has teleported other people, and no reports of it feeling they were in another place, its usually described or shown to be instant. So when they say  pocket I think they mean , he just ends up in an other section of space, then appears rather than going to a 3rd party dimension. I'm a shadow fan, and the idea of shadow being able traverse dimensions with out chaos emeralds is a cool power he could have, I don't think that's it. I think he has a firm grip on one reality and that's it. 

No its shadow. A matter of fact, it seems that everything but stopping time, is just shadow with out chaos emeralds. And even that ability is unique to shadow. 

 

On the topic of Shadow's speed I'd like to bring up two things that haven't really been mentioned yet. First is that, as per '06 Shadow is deliberately handicapping himself so that he doesn't burn out too quickly (Source: "Showdown with Mephiles" cutscene), meaning that what we observe to be his upper limit is not necessarily the same as his actual upper limit. The second is skill in Sonic Battle explicitly states, and I quote, "With help from his Air Shoes, [Shadow] can run faster than Sonic." (Source: In-game description of the "Shadow Run" skill-card), which suggests that the Air Shoes are intended to give him an edge over Sonic rather than being a necessity for matching him. Furthermore by taking both bits of information into account we could speculate that the Air Shoes are normally used to allow Shadow to maintain his natural top speed while minimizing his energy consumption. Also can we get a source on this whole "Shadow says Sonic is faster" thing?

 

On a semi-related note Sonic Battle also gives us the closest thing we have to a description of how Chaos Control works by way of the games descriptions of Chaos Burst and its aerial variant, which is as follows:

"Shadow's ground power. If the R button is pressed, he hides in distorted space." (Source: In-game description of "Chaos Burst" skill-card)

 "Shadow's air power. He attacks opponents by creating distorted space with Chaos Control." (Source: In-game description of "Air C. Burst" skill-card)

When executing move in-game Shadow disappears using Chaos Control and then attacks with Chaos Blast (or a similar technique) as he reappears elsewhere. This, in conjunction with the descriptions of the move above, leads to the conclusion that warping via Chaos Control involves the user tucking themselves away in a pocket of distorted space. Granted it's not a step by step walkthrough of the process but it's something related to how the technique works.

This is interesting interesting info. 

 

Edited December 21, 2015 by Shadowlax