Experiment: The vital Sonic elements

[Mr. Taxi]

So I take it Sonic advance 2 fails on the numbers game and the "level design to appease your desires" I take it?

I suppose I need to look at your other posts to find out the details then. Probably the "Find all items to unlock the bonus stage" thing.

Appeasing is the wrong word. It bends, rewards, frustrates your desires. Indeed, frustration - or Sonic's life system, to be exact - is a big part of what makes the experience complete. Dying, hurting or simply not getting what you want is important. Sonic Advance 2 fails in making speed something you use and strive for. In the Advance series, speed is just something you do. And, since I mentioned the life system, the numbers are part of it, yes. Rings are an impressive feature, but if they are everywhere and you are hardly ever in danger of losing them, they lose their meaning in this context. Instead, they were given this other meaning related to the boost, but it would be incredible if they were together.

It also completely fails to deliver progression. It feels like a lot of... stages that you happen to be playing and eventually you end. Quite unlike Sonic Advance, which is great in this aspect.

And, well, there's this thread (I've posted it here too but eh, server wipe) about progression and a lot of stuff about level design here and there you could check out if you're interested in this line of thinking. Or we could chat sometime and you could let me gush about your stuff.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

And, well, there's this thread (I've posted it here too but eh, server wipe)

Woa.

Great topic there.

And very relevant to the information I was looking for.

Fascinating how plot and gameplay are so tightly interconnected, your theory about Metal Sonic there even throws a new twist in my own thoughts.

Good stuff. Love it.

Suppose I could defend Sonic Triple Trouble by saying the Chaos Emerald stages keep a sense of progression and unstable adventure elements troughout the game with the sudden airplane stages and Nack's inclusion, not to mention the final stage has the Metal Sonic and fake Fang boss fight as a secondary inflection.

Tough yeah, you still got a point. Sunset park should have been the second to last zone, so the surprise has a bigger punch to it. Now the 2 surprises happen too early and too late.

[Bowbowis]

Age: 19

 

Favorite Sonic Games: Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic Battle

 

Least Favorite Sonic Games: Sonic Lost World, Sonic Colors, Sonic Free Riders

 

 

Favorite Classic Elements:

 

1. Physics Based Platforming: One of Classic Sonic's claims to fame is their use of momentum and rolling to pick up speed. The classic physics system makes for one of the most natural feeling 2D platforming experiences ever.

 

2. The Spindash: I think the Spindash was an absolutely brilliant mechanic in the way that its various drawbacks (forcing Sonic to come to a stop, requiring a charge up period, leaving Sonic at the mercy of the terrain, etc.) balance it out and prevent it from overwhelming the games design like it's modern counterpart, the boost, does. It's also rather useful too. After playing the later games it can be rather difficult to go back to Sonic 1 due to its lack of the Spindash. 

 

3. Creative Bosses: One strength of the Classics that has yet to be matched is just how creative some of the boss designs could be. After all who could forget bosses the Aquatic Ruins boss, the Flying Battery mini-boss, or the race with Metal Sonic at Stardust Speedway, among others.

 

4. Super Sonic for the Final Boss (S3&K): Playing as Super Sonic in the final boss is always a surefire way to make the grand finale just that much more epic. I hope that in the future they do it like they did in Generations, where Super Sonic is used for the final boss then unlocked for normal levels after completing the game. They could do it S3&K style too, but I prefer being able to have the Emeralds as plot devices.

 

 

Favorite Adventure Era Elements:

 

1. 3D Gameplay: The Adventure games (and Heroes and Shadow to a lesser extent) are the pinnacle of 3D gameplay in series, being as-faithful-as-practical translations of the Classic gameplay into the 3rd dimension. Sure they show their age nowadays but in terms of sheer potential for greatness this style has yet to be topped. Not to mention the set-pieces, encountering one of them during a level was always a thrill. Be it the orca chase in Emerald Coast, "going down" in Speed Highway, the G.U.N. Truck in City Escape, or the missile launch in Metal Harbor, the set-pieces always made the level way more memorable than they would have been otherwise. To say I miss having them in the recent games would be an understatement.

 

2. Storytelling: Another aspect of the series that hit it's zenith in this era is the storytelling. The Adventure games brought relatively deep storytelling to the franchise, the plots were interesting, the universe was fleshed out, the levels connected with the story, the stakes were high and the tone was spot on. The characters were in character and written as being multidimensional too. Special mention must be made of Knuckles and Dr. Eggman during this era, and especially in SA2, who where both truly on the top of their games characterization wise.

 

3. The Handling of Multiple Characters in '06: Yes, the game has issues, I get it, but give credit where credit is due, Sonic '06 had the right idea in a lot of respects, it was just bogged down by it's horrible execution. One of those areas was how Sonic, Shadow, and Silver were handled. Each one managed to feel like their own unique character, as opposed to just being Sonic with a few different moves, but did so without going into full blown genera roulette territory like the Adventure games. Which as far as I'm concerned the ideal way to go about it.

 

4. Chao Gardens: What can I say about Chao Gardens that hasn't already been said a million times before? They're fun, they're adorable, and they add a ton of replay value to the games. Bring 'em back already SEGA.

 

5. The Music: The Adventure era turned out some of the best soundtracks in the series (or any game really). I think we're long overdue for another Crush 40 theme.

 

 

Favorite Modern Elements:

 

1. Parkour: Like with '06 and it's handling of characters I have to give credit to Lost World for concept here. Parkour is a great idea for a Sonic game. Just make it run on an Adventure-esqe physics system instead of the whole run button thing Lost World did and you'd have a really neat addition to the Sonic franchise.

 

2. Unleashed's Graphics: Sonic Unleashed is a positively gorgeous game and, although I prefer the anime style humans used in the Storybooks to the Pixar-esque ones used here, I must say that the environments perfectly represent Sonic's world as the place where the real and surreal meet. The only thing I would suggest is to incorporate a bit of the grit seen in the Adventure era. Do that though and you're golden.

 

3. Black Knight's Writing: If you asked me which Sonic game had the best plot I'd tell you Sonic Adventure 2, but if you asked me which Sonic game was the best written I'd tell you Sonic and the Black Knight. All the characters, and especially Sonic himself, are in top form here and Sonic and Caliburn's banter is really entertaining. The plot's pretty good too, and the twist around 2/3 of the way through is a rather clever subversion of our expectations we had of Merlina based on Shahra and Elise.

 

4. Merlina: Easily my favorite Sonic villain of all time. The fact that she has an understandable motive and was ultimately trying to do good by her actions marks her as an interesting character right off the bat. Combine that with her skill at manipulating others and her ability to defeat Sonic in a straight fight and you have a villain who's as dangerous as she is sympathetic. A winning combination as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

Sorry if I'm not making any sense, it's late and I'm tired so my brain isn't working at full capacity right now.

[therealfalconpawnch77]

Age: 20

Most Liked Games: Sonic Adventure 2/Sonic the Hedgehog 2

Most Disliked Games: Sonic Heroes/Shadow the Hedgehog

Classic Elements I like

1. The Spin-Dash: A Good Way to Pick Up speed if you're in a confined area.

2. Gliding as Knuckles: If you're skilled you can pull off some pretty impressive things by gliding.

3. Super Peel-Out: A Nice Alternative, perhaps should be used as a way to get more speed faster, at greater risk.

4. Multiple Pathways: Makes replaying games feel fresh.

5. Elemental Shields: A nice way to balance things out between the three characters.

Adventure Elements I like

1. The Homing Attack: The Perfect way to make attacking in 3D feel smooth, and flow naturally with the high speed action.

2. Multiple Playable Characters: While it was in the classics it felt the most important here. It allowed for more diverse storytelling.

3. Treasure Hunting: Really let you explore the levels and find all sorts of goodies. Perhaps it should be used to flesh out the world that Sonic and Co. live in more.

4. An Actual Narrative: None of this Baldy McNosehair Garbage we have now, but a story that had weight to it, with things at stake, and a reason for actions (Even if they weren't always good)

5. Playable Eggman: Yosh.

Modern Elements I like

1. The Boost: Perfect for 3D, and a good way to give players the feeling of hyper speed.

2. Extreme Speeds: Mostly Unleashed on this one, but the speeds you can reach in that game allows for more skill building, and concentration training.

3. Parkour: Needs better implementation but the perfect way to keep the ball rolling.

4. Side Step: Nice way to keep the pace without having to accidentally run into a wall.

5. Drifting: Much easier to pull off than trying to manually make sharp turns.

[Diamond Sonic]

Palas and Roger Van Der Weide discussing!

 

It's like seeing two of my most respected Sonic thinkers meeting!

[Roger_van_der_weide]

 

3. Creative Bosses: One strength of the Classics that has yet to be matched is just how creative some of the boss designs could be. After all who could forget bosses the Aquatic Ruins boss, the Flying Battery mini-boss, or the race with Metal Sonic at Stardust Speedway, among others.

 

4. Chao Gardens: What can I say about Chao Gardens that hasn't already been said a million times before? They're fun, they're adorable, and they add a ton of replay value to the games. Bring 'em back already SEGA.

 

 

 

Sorry if I'm not making any sense, it's late and I'm tired so my brain isn't working at full capacity right now.

 

Well, Sonic Colors and Lost world went crazy with their boss ideas too. Too gimicky for your taste?

Actually I'm surprised how rarely Chao gardens are brought up. I was expecting them to easily hit the top 5 but instead I think you might be the second one to bring them up.

And you made great sense, wish I was that clear headed when tired.

 

 

5. Drifting: Much easier to pull off than trying to manually make sharp turns.

 

Yeah, I love the drifting too, especially in Unleashed. Makes it really Sega ish to me.

Tough it seems unpopular and hated with most other people tough I'm not sure why.

[Briraka]

Yeah, I love the drifting too, especially in Unleashed. Makes it really Sega ish to me.

Tough it seems unpopular and hated with most other people tough I'm not sure why.

I think this either has to do with the mentality that Sonic shouldn't need a drift mechanic because he should be able to turn efficiently without one like in the Adventures, or because in the boost games they had it relegated to specific sections like in a racing game and Sonic shouldn't be a racing game because it's supposed to be a platformer, which I don't get. Sonic games always felt like a mix between racing and platforming because of the ways the levels were structured in the classic and the Adventures with the way speedy and platforming parts were separated from each other.

 

But yeah, I agree. Drifting is fuuuuuunnnnn.