ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2

[Diogenes]

I don't follow a series in the hopes that it'll poop out a random collection of "good games". I follow a series because it has something specific that I want.

If a series just does whatever it wants, even if it ends up being "good", I'm not getting the thing I want, and there's no guarantee that I'll like whatever it ends up being anyway.

[Nepenthe]

I don't disagree with that, mainly because I'm not actually advocating that the Sonic series go forth and do what it wants- or even advocating it do anything specific right now- so much as shooting the shit about what the series can hypothetically accomplish under its own parameters. I'd much rather chatter about that than reinforce yet again that people are unhappy and want very specific things.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Who's your lawyer? Send me the info so I know where to start the legal process. I mean, praising RoL while complaining the werehog doesn't fit? Pshaw.

33% of the game is good. 33% is middling. 33% is bad. How can this be considered a good result at all?

[Mauro Fonseca]

Why write it at all, then? :V

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Everyone else here takes every chance they get to restate their opinions on unrelated Sonic games at inappropriate times, why can't I?

[Moppsy]

I don't disagree with that, mainly because I'm not actually advocating that the Sonic series go forth and do what it wants- or even advocating it do anything specific right now- so much as shooting the shit about what the series can hypothetically accomplish under its own parameters. I'd much rather chatter about that than reinforce yet again that people are unhappy and want very specific things.

 

Well, within it's own "parameters", the sonic style bnb that a lot of people want (myself included) isn't as restrictive as it seems.  The bread and butters would be speedy characters, spin dashing, and jumping into enemies.  You can make that just a skeleton and work unique abilities like flying, homing attacking, gliding, hammering, etc into the mix.  It would give a solid base for players to get used to while giving something unique to specific characters.  The big issue would be designing levels around all these unique abilities if you wanted each character to have a specific goal. I can see multiple branching paths both in 2D and 3D games offering this.  Especially if the track is still linear and the character can move fast and spin dash, their specific goal could be reaching these branching paths. 

[Kuzu]

I finally sat down and watched the whole thing. Yea, it's pretty spot on for the most part. What I particularly liked was how he pointed how Pumpkin Hill plays better to Knuckles` abilities and the Cannon Core levels are better structured for having specific goals in mind beyond getting to the end of the stage. Which shows that not everyone has a hate boner for genre roulette and that the main issue is that it feels completely alien to the characters you're forced to play as.

 

 

I also loved his summation on why the game is loved despite its numerous design flaws, which makes sense because whenever someone cites Sonic Adventure 2's quality, it's usually about the Chao Garden and Sonic/Shadow stages and never anything else. 

 

 

I don't see what everyone's issue is about his attitude either, he didn't even seem particularly hateful towards the game, he called the game out on its poor design flaws and pointed out the few good ones too. That's what reviewers are supposed to do, it didn't even feel like he injected his opinion that much into his final score. 

[Autosaver]

That Water Knuckles stage can go fuck itself.

[Ripe]

I think that review was ok. I agree with many points that Projared made but my problems weren't so big. I somewhat like the mech-shooting. They were more dissapointing than bad. And treasure hunting stages. Well, I liked them very much in SA1 because they were still fast paced (they take only about 1-5 minutes if you know what you're doing) and luck wasn't as big factor but in SA2 they made those questionable desing choices which I don't like. Seriously, who thought that it was a good idea? But still, truly great parts were only 1/3 of the game.

When it comes to the Chaos, I have never wasted my time on them. I'm just not interested on that stuff.

So, I like SA2 but all of the 3D Sonic games I have played (Adventure 1 and 2, Heroes, Generations), it is my least favourite. I myself would like to return to Adventure style. I just think that it has more potential than boost style.

[Gabz Girl]

I can agree with most of ProJared's opinions except for Treasure Hunting stages cos they're GREAT (especially Knuxie's), but he makes it sound like the game is awful I mean bloody hell.

 

Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06 are awful. I would never ever put SA2 near those games in terms of awfulness!

[Scar]

The "genre roulette" thing is one thing that made me appreciate the series a bit more, actually. it made it stand out, made it diverse and gave each character a personality, instead of confining it to already exposition-heavy cut-scenes. How would we know how how treasure hunting actually feels like if we weren't allowed to play through it under those characters own conditions? It just doesn't feel natural otherwise. 

 

Also, I don't like the contempt to exploration these dudes have. Are they middle-aged men already?  

 

The problem is, the treasure hunting levels are poorly designed.The gimped radar combined with overly massive levels which weren't particularly interesting to explore, was the principle reason I never bothered finishing the game. 

 

Also, characters can have  unique personalities and whatnot without having to rely upon massively divergent gameplay. Sonic 3 and Knuckles proved as much. 

[Nepenthe]

The characters in the classic games are somewhat different, but I wouldn't classify the way they're developed and structured as "unique" in terms of doing the best job possible at advocating differentiation. Without different end-game goals, even goals as simple as "Get to X goal ring instead of Y goal ring," or even a different stage order, I feel less like I'm playing with Tails or Knuckles than I am playing Sonic with a permanent Wisp power attached. There's nothing wrong with that method of development mind, but I don't empathize with the idea that the classic/Black Knight way of doing things puts for some sort of amazingly unique perspective on the gameplay that makes them worth bothering with beyond the potentially short-lived thrill of breaking or skipping level design more catered to Sonic's lack of flight.

 

And indeed, I think there's a more satisfying middle ground than either the classic style or complete genre roulette entirely, and that was the way Sonic 06 handled the main hedgehogs because they allow the characters the right to different abilities, speeds, short-term goals, and level design that actually caters to their differentiation without actually changing up the game genre or main idea of "get to the end" at all. As a result, each character feels worth to play on the basis of supporting actual variety being present within the core game design. Of course it's a given that Sonic 06's execution is severely flawed (I hate having to reiterate this because it feels like a given someone's going to unnecessarily challenge me on what we all know and completely ignore the general point), but if I were given the choice of using its general design ideas for alternate character implementation, of stretching the design limits of how far similarly-playing characters could still differentiate themselves from one another, I would.

[Nepenthe]

Also decided to move this to the main Sonic section, since a YouTube review of an old game doesn't really concern upcoming Sega and Sonic news. xP

[Komodin]

Um, what?!

Not optimizing the levels to the characters capabilities sounds like a recipe for mediocrity. And weren't Sonic supposed to be anything but that?

 

There's a world of difference between "optimizing levels to better suit a character's abilities" and wholesale genre roulette. Sonic '06 actually had the right idea with the former approach, as the three main 'hogs all felt like their own guys while keeping the same ultimate goal of getting to the end via platforming.

[azoo]

Just got done watching the video proper.

 

Aaaand he was right on the money about most things, to be honest.

 

The only thing I found myself disagreeing with was the last part (about everyone "not wanting to play as Sonic's stupid friends", as they all say, you know how it is..), especially since it defies the arguments he made earlier in the video about how they should rather be used to their strengths instead of doing dumb things, and I think that represents his argument more while the last statement seems like a broad statement meant to match status quo for your average Youtuber crowd. :v

 

And yeah, he was right about a lot of that with Sonic Adventure 2 actually being a bad (well, not bad, but not-so-great) game, but I'd prefer him to make a video of Sonic Adventure 1 rather than put both of them in the same category. Since.. you know... they're actually really different games, despite similar issues.

 

Despite that, his argument that there doesn't need to be a 'Sonic Adventure 3' rings pretty true, considering it'll only give Sega ideas that alternate gameplay styles are what we wanted as well. 

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

I agree with a lot of what Jared says, but these are my biggest gripes with the review:

"Overall, this game is not good, in fact it's awful."

"If the whole game was just Sonic, and not his stupid friends, the game would be a lot better."

Yeah, Sonic Adventure 2 hasn't aged well, but awful? Really? I mean, I not too fond of the mech and treasure hunting stages either, but I wouldn't call the majority of them "bad". I for one can tolerate them.

Sonic's friends also aren't the problem. The problem is the use of gameplay styles that stray from the high-speed platforming this franchise is known for. Sonic's friends CAN adhere to the high speed platforming. *cough* Sonic 3 and Knuckles *cough*.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Game about Sonic and not his stupid friends?

I'm sorry, but as spot on as he may be, did this moron forget about Unleashed which was precisely that and was still heavily flawed? (And better crafted, surpisingly)

You think people would realize this, but no they just enjoy making scapegoats.

[Indigo Rush]

Well... I kinda thought it was a given that "dumb friends" was coined under the pretense of widely varied gameplay styles that didn't mesh with the overall Sonic gameplay mechanic. He praised Shadow's levels as well, even though he's a "dumb friend." Though I'll absolutely grant that it's hard not to get hopped up over the semantics of this subject given the history of the debate. He certainly should have chosen his words more carefully. Or something.

[Kuzu]

Ya know what, considering how he was obviously being factious in a few areas of the entire review, I'd take that as a joke. But its a joke we've heard a million times and are kind of tired of hearing, so I can understand being upset with it and callin him out. 

[Diamond Sonic]

I'm pretty sue the 'Sonic and his dumb friends' was just a throwaway joke at the end due to how many Sonic games have been ruined by the poor execution of Sonic's friends. I don't think it's meant to be taken too seriously. 

Game about Sonic and not his stupid friends?

I'm sorry, but as spot on as he may be, did this moron forget about Unleashed which was precisely that and was still heavily flawed? (And better crafted, surpisingly).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sonic Unleashed had Chip who is, as far as I'm concerned, the worst of Sonic's friends by a country mile and single-handedly ruins the game. 

[Diamond Sonic]

Oh right, it was Chip who slowed down half the game with him transforming into a werehog at night and giving us a pseudo-God of War gameplay taking up half the game (or more if we're talking the Wii version) to pad it out.

 

Wait a minute.....

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The Werehog is utterly terrible and I've always said how the Werehog is one of the worst things about Unleashed. I was able to plod through the Werehog to get to the Daytime Stages though, as painful as they were. Chip, however, ruins what's left of Unleashed with his obnoxious character and voice acting.

[Diamond Sonic]

which I know you knew from the beginning given how obvious I was before you pretended to miss my point with a scapegoat.

[Indigo Rush]

Honestly, a James Bond villain would be giving you too much credit.

 

Chip is a good one-off character. His voice is a fair bit grating, but that's hardly a detriment to his character. He's rather well-written. Sonic Unleashed as a whole has a fairly good story to it. 

 

Besides, isn't this discussion about genre-roulette and Sonic's friends? Why even bring up an NPC if they aren't playable? The Werehog is what's deserving of all the focus in this case.