ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2

[azoo]

Both of you cease it. Unleashed isn't on topic with this discussion, holy cripes-on-a-bike.

 

also Chip was the least offensive part of unleashed but whatever poops your boot man

 

Anyways, I can see the whole "dumb friend" thing referring to different gameplay styles, but if that's the case he should've been more clear about that. Otherwise, it just sounds like a throwaway joke meant to have Youtube commenters go "yeah! Sonic's friends are a shit!!" and start that whole parade all over again.

[Diamond Sonic]

Anyways, I can see the whole "dumb friend" thing referring to different gameplay styles, but if that's the case he should've been more clear about that. Otherwise, it just sounds like a throwaway joke meant to have Youtube commenters go "yeah! Sonic's friends are a shit!!" and start that whole parade all over again.

[Radiant Hero Ike]

I never really understood why people don't like Sonic's friends... Do they mean solely their gameplay or personality as well?

[Diamond Sonic]

I never really understood why people don't like Sonic's friends... Do they mean solely their gameplay or personality as well?

 

Probably both.

[Komodin]

Well, after this review, I do think that Jared was more-or-less spot-on with his points, barring that (possibly facetious) "shitty friends" joke near the end.

 

I do find it a bit interesting how he like the Chao Gardens, even though they're a bigger digression from typical Sonic gameplay than the mechs and treasure-hunting ever were. Perhaps it helps that the Chao are not necessarily required to deal with in order to complete the story mode and see credits.

[azoo]

That's what I think the main point is.

 

There's nothing wrong with extras. Chao Gardens are fun and lovable, hub worlds and all they have to offer could be wonderful if it's not a burden that slows the player down, mini games would be great, missions are fun, and of course other characters could be wonderful with good execution.

 

It's just the matter of if it's in the way of the actual meat of the game or not. And if it is, then is it actually an addition to the experience, or a detractor. 

[Kuzu]

I never really understood why people don't like Sonic's friends... Do they mean solely their gameplay or personality as well?

 

 

I think a better question, and one we probably never ask ourselves, is why should people like the?

[Nepenthe]

I don't think it's a matter of like or dislike. It's a matter of actually identifying the problems people have with this series than making scapegoats just to make ourselves feel better. Getting rid of the playable status of Sonic's friends didn't stop them from putting a Werehog in Unleashed, or even still arbitrarily dividing the gameplay up in Generations for no tangible benefit to either the franchise as a whole or to Classic Sonic's relevance.

[Kuzu]

Yes, and people hated the Werehog too :V I don't think its as simple as like or dislike either, but a genuine observation. What do the gameplay and personality traits of Sonic's friends offer that people should like about them? As in, why should people invest their time in playing with another character when they might've originally came for Sonic. 

 

Obviously we know the answer, because we're fans who know better. But the average consumer? If I was an outsider who had never played a Sonic game or knew anything about the series before in my life and you showed me Sonic Adventure 2, I'd question how anyone could tolerate something like Knuckles` stages after playing Sonic's. 

 

 

As much as there is an disproportionate amount of scapegoating towards Sonic's friends in the series, I also feel burden is also on the developers for not giving anyone a reason to care about them, both on a gameplay front and a character front. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yes, and people hated the Werehog too :V I don't think its as simple as like or dislike either, but a genuine observation. What do the gameplay and personality traits of Sonic's friends offer that people should like about them? As in, why should people invest their time in playing with another character when they might've originally came for Sonic. 

 

Obviously we know the answer, because we're fans who know better. But the average consumer? If I was an outsider who had never played a Sonic game or knew anything about the series before in my life and you showed me Sonic Adventure 2, I'd question how anyone could tolerate something like Knuckles` stages after playing Sonic's. 

 

 

As much as there is an disproportionate amount of scapegoating towards Sonic's friends in the series, I also feel burden is also on the developers for not giving anyone a reason to care about them, both on a gameplay front and a character front. 

I don't know.

 

If you showed the average consumer SA2, I don't think they'll pressure the game that hard over Knuckles' stages after playing Sonic's. Or even Tails. They might enjoy digging, climbing, and gliding in the air that Sonic can't do or the shooting stages. It's more the vocal gaming crowd on the internet that's applying that, while the average consumer might have more fun with these extras. They don't go that far in depth as the fans or gamers do into the game, unless they gradually become a more hardcore or devoted fan somewhere down the line. And even that can go either way from liking the game to disliking it when they analyze it.

 

Still, it doesn't detract that the developers don't do much to give anyone to care about these characters. They've improved a bit, but they always seem to take a few steps back in the process. But the average consumer is a murky group to categorize whether they'll like something or not.

[Scar]

The "Shitty Friends" joke became a thing because of games like SA1 and SA2 and Heroes and then 06. Them being playable in often very divergent and generally poorly designed gameplay styles made people outside our humble fanbase, despise the characters.

 

Oh sure, they were badly written anyway, but nowadays they're dismissed off-hand simply by association with the terrible gameplay they once represented. That and over the years it has become somewhat of a running gag that people immediately latch onto when they're looking to take the piss.

 

SEGA and/or Sonic Team stupidly misinterpreted this as dislike for the characters themselves, not their totally random and badly designed gameplay. One could say that they replaced the friends by having Sonic himself be the playable character for the genre roulette as in Unlashed, but I bet the Werehog was made simply to prevent the game from being finished in 2 hours (if that). This is where the idea that the Boost Gameplay being unsustainable comes from.

[Kuzu]

I don't know.

 

If you showed the average consumer SA2, I don't think they'll pressure the game that hard over Knuckles' stages after playing Sonic's. Or even Tails. They might enjoy digging, climbing, and gliding in the air that Sonic can't do or the shooting stages. It's more the vocal gaming crowd on the internet that's applying that, while the average consumer might have more fun with these extras. They don't go that far in depth as the fans or gamers do into the game, unless they gradually become a more hardcore or devoted fan somewhere down the line. And even that can go either way from liking the game to disliking it when they analyze it.

 

Still, it doesn't detract that the developers don't do much to give anyone to care about these characters. They've improved a bit, but they always seem to take a few steps back in the process. But the average consumer is a murky group to categorize whether they'll like something or not.

 

 

Well that's why I said if I(first person) was an average consumer, I know everyone wouldn't feel that way, its just how I would feel.

[JezMM]

I don't think the "dumb friends" thing was meant seriously OR as a joke.  Like Indigo Rush I thought it was perfectly clear he was using it as shorthand for "what they did with his friends in this game ("what they did" being dumb)".  He's probably simply unaware of the "shitty friends" trend because he isn't part of the fanbase like we are.  It was entirely innocuous and not something you could have expected him to research.

[Rad Dudesman]

"Sonic's shitty friends" was mostly a gameplay thing.

 

People liked Shadow before Shadow the Hedgehog destroyed his reputation.

People like Blaze because her gameplay is similar to Sonic's, and her debut game wasn't awful.

 

On the flip side, people hate Big because of his fishing levels, and Silver's reputation is forever tarnished by debuting in one of the worst games ever, and having bad gameplay in it.

[Solkia]

I think a better question, and one we probably never ask ourselves, is why should people like the?

 

Why should anyone like any character? Why should anyone like anyone? Or anything? fuck this earth

[Willsy]

This is probably going to be controversial, but.....he absolutely hit the nail right on the head about SA2. When a game has only a third of it's content relevant to the subject matter and arguably fun, there is a massive issue. When you play a Sonic game, do you expect to be spending most of your time running around at high speeds and platforming, or shooting thins in a giant mech walker or (very painfully) treasure hunting? These alternate play styles did not match the game, and it elongates the issue that SA1 had where it did contain play styles that deviated too much from the core fomula. SA1 had Big, Gamma, and Knuckles (though he wasn't nearly as bad as SA2) play completely differently in their stories, with Sonic, Tails, and Amy all having something in common (Tails was Sonic but could fly while having to race Sonic to the goal, Amy was a slower Sonic with a big ass robot chasing her, Sonic is Sonic). Overall, the amount of play styles that don't fit in take up half of the stories in SA1, but two thirds of the game in SA2, which in my opinion, is a step back.

Overall, this shouldn't be what current Sonic games should aspire to be, because otherwise they wouldn't be Sonic games. They would just be a mish mash of gameplay styles which happens to feature Sonic The Hedgehog. I just find it extremely difficult to be able to say that only a third of a Sonic game is the height of the series, and if I were in a situation where I would have to recommend some Sonic games to a friend, I would probably skip straight past the Adventure games despite me liking the first, reason being, I don't want to recommend games where only certain parts of the game are fun. Is SA2 a bad game though? Oh no, it's not broken or anything and the Sonic stages are a lot of fun. However, it's definitely not the peak of the franchise, like, at all. [MAJOR CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT INCOMING] For me, it's about on par with Lost World, another game that tried to be too many things at once and suffered partially because of that.

TL;DR There are much better Sonic games out there to take cues from.

[Sami]

I never really understood why people don't like Sonic's friends... Do they mean solely their gameplay or personality as well?

[JezMM]

I think the contempt of diverse cast is a remnant of the 90's detachment of the 80's wave of Breakfast Club-esque narratives.

It's an edgy statement, but unfortunately so limiting and short-sighted it only works for very small games like Sonic Runners.

 

There was a light-hearted 80's wave in the late 90's that struck a chord in pop culture as a response to the suicide of Kurt Cobain and the killing of 2Pac and Notorious B.I.G. It was in that state Sonic Adventure 1 was created (1998). Then Nu Metal and Electroclash entered the scene and edge came back, only with a retro flair to it and Sonic Adventure 2 was created (2001). Then 9/11 came and that edge became a cogwheel in the propaganda machine against "terrorism" for about 7-8 years. You can argue against Sonic Adventure 2 all you want, but at least it's prophetic as hell. Like "Demolition Man" prophetic.

[Kuzu]

I think the contempt of diverse cast is a remnant of the 90's detachment of the 80's wave of Breakfast Club-esque narratives.

It's an edgy statement, but unfortunately so limiting and short-sighted it only works for very small games like Sonic Runners.

 

There was a light-hearted 80's wave in the late 90's that struck a chord in pop culture as a response to the suicide of Kurt Cobain and the killing of 2Pac and Notorious B.I.G. It was in that state Sonic Adventure 1 was created (1998). Then Nu Metal and Electroclash entered the scene and edge came back, only with a retro flair to it and Sonic Adventure 2 was created (2001). Then 9/11 came and that edge became a cogwheel in the propaganda machine against "terrorism" for about 7-8 years. You can argue against Sonic Adventure 2 all you want, but at least it's prophetic as hell. Like "Demolition Man" prophetic.

[Solkia]

I can't believe Sonic Adventure is Kurt Kobain's fault

[PandoloFox]

Cant say I agreed with the review much ( he does make some good points though ). This is mainly because you could feel that he had a misson with this one. You would love a bit more objectivety when reviewing a game but he starts of by showing how people realy liked the game just to tell them that its horrible.

First of, i know that some of his statements are jokes ( sonic taking out everybody on board, meaning killing everyone as an an example ) but some things are just realy petty and could be explained if you actualy thought about it. The old "how do they not see its shadow and not sonic" is one of those arguments im not fond of. I dont know about you guys but at night time even with street lights its freaking hard to tell blue from black, especialy from a distance. them mistaking him for sonic is not that hard to believe.

Tails levels though not as fun as other characters stages arnt as horrible as many likes to make them out to be. they are indeed clunky, but they work. Its very few things that are unfair and its not like its the worst thing ever to shoot stuff ( though admittetly that beeping sound is annoying )

The treasure hunting levels fitted knuckles as a character, there is more to games than just performing well and that is to match the characters personality and traits to what he is doing when playing the game. treasure hunting fit him nicely and there were story giving you clear cut reasons to why you were doing it. And unlike a lot of people i enjoyed these stages, the clues were garbage and you never needed them anyway when you got better ( in fact when going for A ranks you wernt even allowed to use them ). But gliding around and explore the area was fun and when you got good it went fast as well.

And while i do agree with him on that making an "sa3" isnt magicaly gonna solve anything i dont agree with the reason. Just because the game has aged poorly and doesnt live up to todays standard doesnt mean that the next sa game will have the same standards as sa2. It would be realy weird if they didnt try to adapt to modern gaming standards.

[Komodin]

That's where we disagree, since I don't see bad gameplay here, only a tough challenge. I got all A's once. That's a satisfaction only a few will experience.

[Chooch]

I got all S ranks in Sonic 06. That means it's no longer a pre-alpha build on a disc, I suppose.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

"how do they not see its shadow and not sonic" is one of those arguments im not fond of. I dont know about you guys but at night time even with street lights its freaking hard to tell blue from black, especialy from a distance. them mistaking him for sonic is not that hard to believe.

[Nepenthe]

It's also hard to believe that people can't tell that Bugs is a rabbit in costume, or that Clark Kent is Superman just because he puts on glasses, or that Raphael is a turtle in a trench coat, or insert any number of fictional cases of mistaken identity that are made obvious to a third person audience.