ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2

[Komodin]

There's also the whole thing with Amy somehow confusing Shadow for Sonic despite the scene taking place on an open aircraft carrier in bright daylight. You could say that it was just a gag, but I just can't help but think it does her character a fair bit of a disservice through its unfortunate implications.

[Sami]

It's also hard to believe that people can't tell that Bugs is a rabbit in costume, or that Clark Kent is Superman just because he puts on glasses, or that Raphael is a turtle in a trench coat, or insert any number of fictional cases of mistaken identity that are made obvious to a third person audience.

[Willsy]

I could understand GUN mistaking Shadow for Sonic, but Amy? Nah, I'm not buying that. Amy is absolutely batshit insane for Sonic and obsesses on him to a somewhat disturbing level. She should have been able to discern a difference right off the bat.

[pppp]

First of, i know that some of his statements are jokes ( sonic taking out everybody on board, meaning killing everyone as an an example ) but some things are just realy petty and could be explained if you actualy thought about it. The old "how do they not see its shadow and not sonic" is one of those arguments im not fond of. I dont know about you guys but at night time even with street lights its freaking hard to tell blue from black, especialy from a distance. them mistaking him for sonic is not that hard to believe.

[Nepenthe]

Yeah but Bugs Bunny is the mascot of a series of wacky cartoon comedies and Superman was written in the 30's.

[Komodin]

Well, you've mastered the game the way it was meant to be, which modernistically speaking, is a games purpose.

"The Death of the Author" is such an easy tool for critics these days, it's becoming a sign for laziness. Sometimes, your demands ain't the authors vision, how far you try to corner them with dem pitchforks of nostalgia.

[Sami]

This...doesn't actually refute a thing, particularly since Sonic isn't all that serious enough, even in SA2, to warrant the eschewing of cartoon tropes. The cliche of having a character disguised or mistaken for a look-alike in-universe that is simultaneously very obvious to an audience with more knowledge than the characters is a cliche for a reason. It's used often in fiction of various aesthetics and ages. I'm not sure why Sonic is some major exception?

At this rate, we're gonna start seriously debating the characters breathing in space.

I really can't think of any instances where this trope is taken completely at face value and is integrated into an otherwise serious non-comedic plot, other than maybe Superman, which was conceived and published an entire year before World War II and introduced in a much goofier context than what we're used to with the character now.

At the very best it's a really stupid, badly written joke. Gonna be honest, in my years spent in this fanbase I've literally never once seen anyone laugh with the game on that and not just at the writers.

[Kuzu]

There's also the fact that its never brought up in-universe either as a joke, its played completely straight. The writers were seriously trying to sell that Shadow looks almost exactly like Sonic and that is how he was framed. There was nothing really tongue and cheek about it. 

 

 

I mean, if they justified it a bit more, it wouldn't be as noticeable but...they didn't. My willing suspension of disbelief only goes but so far.

[Briraka]

Yeah, I'mma agree with Sami on this one. The only way I can think that anyone would think that Shadow was Sonic is because GUN wanted to keep Shadow a secret out of fear that the actual events ARK incident would come to light, so they framed Sonic and had him arrested.

[Scar]

Well, you've mastered the game the way it was meant to be, which modernistically speaking, is a games purpose.

I'm sorry, but what does this even mean? What does this have to do with your previous arguments or the counter arguments presented? Even if what you say makes sense and is true, a game fulfilling its purpose at a fundamental level doesn't make it good, nor does it make its flaws acceptable.

 

"The Death of the Author" is such an easy tool for critics these days, it's becoming a sign for stubbornness. Sometimes, your demands ain't the authors vision, how far you try to corner them with dem pitchforks of nostalgia.

Cut the pretence please. This statement means absolutely nothing.

 

Reading the last few comments you've made in this thread, and I'm wondering if you actually have an argument at all. Do you actually understand what "The Death of the Author" is? If so, what the fuck are you talking about when you bring it up?

[PandoloFox]

Uh...no. I can tell black from blue just fine at night with streetlights, which are clearly there for everyone, not to mention Amy mistook Shadow for Sonic during the FREAKING DAY where that excuse goes completely out the window.

 

Also, if that is what the game was going for, then the players themselves should also see that difficulty in telling them apart, otherwise it creates a sense of disconnect between what the game is trying to convey and what is actually conveyed to the player.

I was talking about gun not amy, in amys case its different. She makes assumptions without realy looking, hell she was even having her eyes closed while hugging shadow. she saw a hedgehog in the distance and jumped to conclusions. she the ran and closed her eyes, when opening them she saw her mistake. It even became a thing in 06 as a joke.

well good for you that you can see the difference in colors when its dark outside. i hope you can see people standing on the top of a bridge as well where no lights are present except the cops flashlights but its again from a graet distance.

And if you guys want to make it interesting, lets go back to sa1. what did sonic do in the open anyone? turn golden yellow. considering that people lived and saw that whats stopping sonic from turning black?

What about the red streaks on his quills, or the patch of white fur on his chest? That shouldn't be hard to see. What's more, there's a cutscene where the news captures footage of Shadow and people still think he's Sonic. Sorry, but it IS hard to believe people can't tell the difference. 

 

from a great distance any color except shiny ones would be hard to see. granted that they look shiny but thats how we see them. they are probably more realistic colored in the eyes of gun.

[PandoloFox]

There's also the fact that its never brought up in-universe either as a joke, its played completely straight. The writers were seriously trying to sell that Shadow looks almost exactly like Sonic and that is how he was framed. There was nothing really tongue and cheek about it. 

 

 

I mean, if they justified it a bit more, it wouldn't be as noticeable but...they didn't. My willing suspension of disbelief only goes but so far.

Im curious as to why this has to be set up as a joke to begin with? there are plenty of action scenes that makes you say " yeah right" but they are cool non the less. The focus of that scene is shadow, not gun. and shadow is thinking about maria and revenge. it was all about setting up a cool looking scene while still adding to the plot.

[Chooch]

Well, you've mastered the game the way it was meant to be, which modernistically speaking, is a games purpose.

"The Death of the Author" is such an easy tool for critics these days, it's becoming a sign for stubbornness. Sometimes, your demands ain't the authors vision, how far you try to corner them with dem pitchforks of nostalgia.

You're implying that Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 was an incomplete mess of a game because that was Sonic Team's vision from the start.

So do bad games just not exist in your world? Bad literature? Bad music and films? Take me to this mystical place.

[Nepenthe]

I seriously do have to wonder about the actual logic concerning people's suspension of belief in this franchise. We can easily deal with Sonic breathing in space just cuz but not people confusing two hedgehogs in-universe for one another for what's a fairly minor catalyst in the grand scheme of the entire plot, especially when real people sometimes fail at differentiation in all sorts of things anyway. I'm also not sure how the trope being used in comedic situations still refutes its use in a game that opens with a blue bipedal hedgehog falling from a helicopter and boarding down the streets of San Fran with a piece of its wing, because that's clearly as stoic as Schindler's List or something. Seriously, I can't tell what actually deserves elaboration in this franchise and what doesn't anymore.

[PandoloFox]

You're implying that Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 was an incomplete mess of a game because that was Sonic Team's vision from the start.

So do bad games just not exist in your world? Bad literature? Bad music and films? Take me to this mystical place.

To be fair, the person said "sometimes". When a game is completely broken i dont think the person in question would like it.

[shdowhunt60]

Quite honestly, I think it's a detail that people fixate too much on. It's a bit of a handwave explanation, and while it's admittedly flimsy, doesn't really much to actually undermine the story. Even the best videogame narratives are prone to it.

 

I just played through Obsidian Entertainment's new RPG "Pillars of Eternity", which I feel is fantastically well written, and even it has its odd suspension of disbelief moments like where

 

One of the animancers was performing horrific experiments that a whole building full of academic geniuses had apparently no clue, in spite of being in quite literally the basement under where the only thing barring entry is a single door.

 

It's a small detail that really has no bearing on what the story is about, and doesn't hamper its thematic brilliance the slightest. It's still an incredibly deep and enriching experience as a whole, and one of the best RPG's to come out in this decade.

 

I'm not saying that Sonic Adventure 2 is Shakespeare or anything like that. Of course it isn't. Nobody ever said it was. Sonic Adventure 2's story was simply good at what it set out to be, and that's a fun B-movie experience with lots of ridiculous over the top action, and fast-energetic pacing. I'm saying that minor details like that doesn't actually really matter that much in the grand scheme of it.

[PandoloFox]

I seriously do have to wonder about the actual logic concerning people's suspension of belief in this franchise. We can easily deal with Sonic breathing in space just cuz but not people confusing two hedgehogs in-universe for one another for what's a fairly minor catalyst in the grand scheme of the entire plot, especially when real people sometimes fail at differentiation in all sorts of things anyway. I'm also not sure how the trope being used in comedic situations still refutes its use in a game that opens with a blue bipedal hedgehog falling from a helicopter and boarding down the streets of San Fran with a piece of its wing, because that's clearly as stoic as Schindler's List or something. Seriously, I can't tell what actually deserves elaboration in this franchise and what doesn't anymore.

I do wonder if action movies in general are being seen as dumb nowadays :/ Sonic is over the top and does things that doesnt make sense. eggman blowing up the moon, eggman building a death egg. Sonic snowboarding down a street etc.

Standard things that are there to make you go "wow". do we crave our action movies to be as factualy accurate as possible now? I thought that was against the purpose of action movies to begin with.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I really can't think of any instances where this trope is taken completely at face value and is integrated into an otherwise serious non-comedic plot, other than maybe Superman, which was conceived and published an entire year before World War II and introduced in a much goofier context than what we're used to with the character now.

At the very best it's a really stupid, badly written joke. Gonna be honest, in my years spent in this fanbase I've literally never once seen anyone laugh with the game on that and not just at the writers.

Mario had the same thing done to him with Shadow Mario/Bowser Jr commuting pollution crimes in Mario Sunshine. Mario wears red and blue, Shadow Mario is all dark blue. The police arrest the real Mario and sentence him guilty of the latter's crime despite the very blatant differences. It wasn't exactly serious, but it wasn't exactly goofy either.

Then there's Team Rocket in Pokemon (who even did this during the much more serious Mewtwo Strikes Back), Danny Phantom where no one seems to see how the superhero and a high schooler are the same person with the exact same appearance despite the different color scheme, Super Boy in Young Justice (hell, what about Green Lantern and Wonder Woman in Justice League?), and many other examples who've been know for the Clark Kenting trope where people can't seem to tell who someone is with even the most obvious appearances.

Not really that rare.

[Rad Dudesman]

The problem is that even Shadow himself thinks Sonic looks like him.

 

In Heroes, he says that Sonic looks like his twin.

[shdowhunt60]

The problem is that even Shadow himself thinks Sonic looks like him.

 

In Heroes, he says that Sonic looks like his twin.

 

Okay... And?

 

Again, this comes back to... Does this really even matter? Or is it just nitpicking?

[SilJeff]

Yeah, it is definitely a bad game. 2/3rds are awful [mechs being far clunkier than gamma, treasure hunting being a complete butchery of SA1 knuckles, plus the fact that they both have ZERO place in this franchise to begin with] and even that good 1/3rd is just a watered down version of SA1's Sonic [controls are still fine aside from the annoying 'put every move to one button, but everything else about sonic is watered down there].

 

 

I would classify the first Adventure as 'alright' at best. Half of that game is good, while half is bad, but both the good parts of SA1 and the bad parts of SA1 [minus the fishing] are better than the good and bad parts of SA2 respectively. In fact, I think that good half of SA1 to be the closest SEGA has ever gotten to a definitive 3D Sonic experience in terms of being like the source material.

[The good half being Sonic and Tails' portions. I know, that is 1/3rd of the characters, but considering how Sonic has 10 levels, tails has 5, knuckles has 5, Amy has 3, Big has 4, and Gamma has 5, that makes for 15 good levels versus 17 which is 47% good versus 53% bad, close enough that I round it to 50/50 because I find it easier to say 1/2 good than 47% good

]

 

 

Gameplay aside, I also think SA2's attempt at being dark and edgy helped pave the way for them to go completely overboard with it in Shadow and 06. Obviously, SA2 isn't nearly that dark compared to those two, but still I think it was there where they first crossed the dark line of dark vs cartoony [compared to Colors crossing the cartoony line. Sonic isn't a melodrama but at the same time he isn't a PBS cartoon either. I think there needs to be balance between the two].

 

I can definitely say SA2 has a better presentation than SA1 and while I don't think its soundtrack beats CD, SA1, or S3&K, it is still fantastic.

[pppp]

I wouldn't mind Shadow being mistaken for Sonic so much if it didn't happen so much from SA2 to 06 and for no reason whatsoever. If they actually made that confusion for a specific reason, like have the military capture both, put them in a cell and they fight in the cell, after it talk and get to know each other(Yeah I just came up with a more interesting scenario than the whole "Get emeralds to activate cannon thing"), but no, it's just a stupid thing that makes no sense and has no use other than shatter my suspension of desbelief cause it doesn't feel like it should exist.

 

 

I'm not saying that Sonic Adventure 2 is Shakespeare or anything like that. Of course it isn't. Nobody ever said it was. Sonic Adventure 2's story was simply good at what it set out to be, and that's a fun B-movie experience with lots of ridiculous over the top action, and fast-energetic pacing. I'm saying that minor details like that doesn't actually really matter that much in the grand scheme of it.

 

Uh, no, if that was the case I would agree with you but it's not what the writer was going for, not according to this scene:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDwpeNluKXg

 

This and of course everything having to do with the Last Story. SA2 is clearly meant to be taken as a serious story about purpose and the value of hummanity. Even Iizuka himself said so in the HD port's extra video.

 

Like Somecallmejohnny said in his review: If Sonic Team wanted to focus on story, they should have payed more attention to detail, which SA2 lacks incredibly.

[JezMM]

Amy mistaking Shadow for Sonic is played for laughs, GUN "mistaking" Shadow for Sonic is a cover-up.  They KNOW it's Shadow, but they say that it's Sonic the Hedgehog to cover their tracks as they attempt to recover what is essentially a bio-weapon with its own free will that has escaped from their facility.  I mean, Big Foot is attacking Sonic at the same time that hundreds of GUN Troops are intercepting Shadow in Radical Highway.  You'd think they'd be in good enough communication to notice that there were "two Sonics" if they really believed Shadow was Sonic.

 

At least that's what I really... REALLY like to believe were the writer's intentions.

 

 

 

 

I'm experienced. That's all.

 

I won't deny you're well-read on some obscure subjects, but you seemingly have an obsession with trying to prove it at any given opportunity regardless of whether it's relevant at all.

[pppp]

Why does the colony crashing into the earth disrupt the Earth's safety but not the moon being blown up in half(Ocean tides? No?).

 

How did Gerald record a revenge video and upload it into the Ark if he was about to be executed? Was GUN nice enough to put it there even though they clearly heard him threaten the Earth?

 

Why is Eggman for no real reason trusting this bat intruder in the Ark instead of capturing her cause she clearly has a reason to be here other than just helping him cause she wants jewels? BTW why is Shadow also blindly trusting her? Why not just steal her blue emerald and again, capturing her for questioning?

 

SA2's story is a story that only works because the characters are all being idiots just for the sake of moving the plot along. That's one of the worst examples of bad writing.

 

Again, if it was a B movie like shdowhunt60 says, sure, I'd go along with it, but no, if you want to tell a serious dramatic story, you need better writing than this.

[shdowhunt60]

Uh, no, if that was the case I would agree with you but it's not what the writer was going for, not according to this scene: