ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2

[pppp]

Iizuka was taking a piss, and you are too for believing him. This is the same fool who told us that the moon in Shadow was just facing the wrong way. If we take what anything that man tells us seriously, then Sonic 06 is fucking Planescape:Torment.

[shdowhunt60]

Iizuka being a moron doesn't change the fact that SA2 clearly wants to be taken seriously, Why all the dark and mature themes then? Did they write those in accidentally?

[pppp]

Again, you're missing the point. You found a weird little detail. Good for you. This apparently was so terrible, that it ruined the story for you.

 

[shdowhunt60]

Why wouldn't he have a space shuttle? This is Doctor Eggman we're talking about.

[pppp]

Why wouldn't he have a space shuttle? This is Doctor Eggman we're talking about.

 

Because it will give his enemies a chance to chase him into space, therefore putting his plans in danger?

[shdowhunt60]

Because it will give his enemies a chance to chase him into space, therefore putting his plans in danger?

Because he never shot himself in the foot that way before, right?

Right?

Look if all this makes you feel better about yourself to sit up in a tower of smug self superiority, that gasp, you found weird plotting details in a story that nobody would have noticed if someone else pointed them out to you, you go right ahead.

[pppp]

Because he never shot himself in the foot that way before, right?

Right?

Look if all this makes you feel better about yourself to sit up in a tower of smug self superiority, that gasp, you found weird plotting details in a story that nobody would have noticed if someone else pointed them out to you, you go right ahead.

 

Woah, super defensive mode there? When did I ever act smug? I'm just trying to have a debate here.

 

Eggman never really shot himself in the foot in the classics, it was just Sonic genuinely beating him in a fair fight. In SA1 he even had a backup plan in case Chaos betrayed him. Eggman was always competent till SA2.

 

Also I didn't need these plot holes to be pointed out to me, I've been saying this since 2002, I already disliked SA2 before it was cool.

[shdowhunt60]

Woah, super defensive mode there? When did I ever act smug? I'm just trying to have a debate here.

 

Eggman never really shot himself in the foot in the classics, it was just Sonic genuinely beating him in a fair fight. In SA1 he even had a backup plan in case Chaos betrayed him. Eggman was always competent till SA2.

Beg your pardon? Starlight Zone Boss? Aquatic Ruins boss? The Egg Viper? Hell, the Cannon at the end of Carnival Night Zone is a pretty clear-cut analogue. That's just off-hand what I can recall.

Also I didn't need these plot holes

What plot-holes? The only clear-cut plothole that I might give you is Gerald Robotnik's reprogramming of the ARK.

to be pointed out to me, I've been saying this since 2002, I already disliked SA2 before it was cool.

Good for you.

[pppp]

Beg your pardon? Starlight Zone Boss? Aquatic Ruins boss? The Egg Viper? Hell, the Cannon at the end of Carnival Night Zone is a pretty clear-cut analogue. That's just off-hand what I can recall.

 

Story and gameplay segregation look it up. In this case it basically means that making the bosses have openings for you to have a chance to hit them is acceptable for the sake of making the gameplay more fun is forgivable. If Eggman's bosses operated by story logic they would be impossible to beat.

[shdowhunt60]

Story and gameplay segregation look it up. In this case it basically means that making the bosses have openings for you to have a chance to hit them is acceptable for the sake of making the gameplay more fun is forgivable. If Eggman's bosses operated by story logic they would be impossible to beat.

Okay, that leaves the cannon in Carnival Night. Not to mention that laser in Flying Battery. Hell, Chaos itself was built around the whole point of Eggman screwing himself over with being shortsighted.

Again, I fail to see why Eggman, of all people, who is basically the epitome of doing whatever the fucke he wants, when he feels like, having a space shuttle in a hidden pyramid base of all places is such a stretch, or even if this is worth complaining about.

[pppp]

Again, I fail to see why Eggman, of all people, who is basically the epitome of doing whatever the fucke he wants, when he feels like, having a space shuttle in a hidden pyramid base of all places is such a stretch, or even if this is worth complaining about.

 

Because unlike the classics, SA2 has more focus on narrative and character.

[JezMM]

Honestly the fact that Eggman has a space shuttle in his base seems totally reasonable to me.  What I'll never understand is why he has a photorealistic lifelike space shuttle instead of a brightly-coloured egg shaped one with his face on the nose cone.

[shdowhunt60]

Honestly the fact that Eggman has a space shuttle in his base seems totally reasonable to me. What I'll never understand is why he has a photorealistic lifelike space shuttle instead of a brightly-coloured egg shaped one with his face on the nose cone.

Photorealistic?

Since when?

Edit: Oh, my apologies. Reading comprehension fail. Now, yeah. That I admit always struck me as weird. But I honestly never thought about it.

[Kuzu]

Photorealistic?

Since when?

 

Its a realistic space shuttle inside the base of a man who puts an "Egg-"  prefix at the beginning of all of his machines and plasters his face on them in some way. :V

 

 

 

As for SA2, yea in hindsight...its a pretty stupid ass story; its enjoyable, but as something I'm supposed to take seriously, it really has a lot of pit falls in the writing department to justify the story moving forward. That's...not how you do good writing, at all.

[pppp]

As for SA2, yea in hindsight...its a pretty stupid ass story; its enjoyable, but as something I'm supposed to take seriously, it really has a lot of pit falls in the writing department to justify the story moving forward. That's...not how you do good writing, at all.

 

My theory on the space shuttle is that when Shiro Maekawa got to that part of the story he thought "Oh shit, How do I get Sonic and company on the Ark? They have no way of getting there. hmmmmmm....I know! NASA Space shuttle!"

 

Here's how I would do it: They find the teleporting machine Eggman uses and Tails will have a sciency moment where he uses it to teleport them to the Ark. Problem solved.

[Kuzu]

Yea, Eggman had a space teleporter inside of his base, why the hell does he need a rocket....my god this plot gets worse the more I start to think about it lol.

[pppp]

I give Maekawa points for genuinely trying to give us something good, but good themes alone can't carry a story, good writing is needed to express those themes in a believable and coherent way.

 

SA2 is a big ball of contrivances, nonsensical actions on part of characters, and unbeliavable scenarios that keep the game from selling the fantasy of its world to me(Again, why did GUN allow Gerald to record his final terrorist message before his execution and how did it end up on the ARK? Did GUN think it would be a nice gesture to carry the dangerous terrorist's final wish? This military is full of freaking morons).

 

Suspension of desbelief is one thing, but this story is flat out asking me to not think, and that is when you realise you're in the presence of a bad script.

[JezMM]

Teleportation would require them to have to come up with a way for the emeralds to get scattered for Knux and Rouge's final stages though.  It's an all-out bizarre scene anyway though, I can't think of something that could be so convoluted it'd be worse than what we actually got lol.

[Nepenthe]

You know, having a teleporter is great if you already have the destination spot rigged.

 

But unless you think that the only place that Eggman would ever want to go in space is the ARK, which we've seen is false in games before and after, then you're going to need an alternate mode of transportation to get into space for other plans.

 

Unless we think that he just teleports himself in space and builds the machines and ships there in a space suit? Seems like a Gravity waiting to happen to me.

 

.... And in fact, how would he have put a teleporter on the ARK in the first place without some other means to get there than a space ship of some sort?

 

I mean, c'mon guys. Having multiple modes of transportation is not a plot hole or plot convenience.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Nepenthe

[pppp]

You know, having a teleporter is great if you already have the destination spot rigged.

 

But unless you think that the only place that Eggman would ever want to go in space is the ARK, which we've seen is false in games before and after, then you're going to need an alternate mode of transportation to get into space for other plans.

 

Unless we think that he just teleports his body in space and builds the machines and ships there in a space suit? Seems like a Gravity waiting to happen to me.

 

.... And in fact, how would he have put a teleporter on the ARK in the first plae without some other means to get there than a space ship of some sort?

 

I mean, c'mon guys. Having multiple modes of transportation is not a plot hole or plot convenience.

 

And what exactly are these other places in space Eggman would need to go to in this specific story? In the classics, he went to space cause that's where the Death Egg is, but that was destroyed in Sonic 3. ARK aside, what other places in space would Eggman want to go to? His base is not in space, it's in the pyramid. Does he just enjoy cruising through space NASA style for fun sometimes? Does he work at NASA to pay his bills? Seems pretty unlikely to me.

[Nepenthe]

Are you literally assuming Eggman is actually sane or small-minded enough to not want to go into space for any reason other than the ARK, like we didn't just accept at face value that one game partly takes place on some random-ass spaceships in space in its opening, and another takes place on some random-ass planets in space cobbled together somehow, and another game also takes place on some other random-ass planet? And let's not even get started on spin-offs. Eggman goes into space often for his plans and bases. I don't know why this is suddenly so contentious other than this is an SA2 thread.

 

And you didn't even answer the question about how in the world he would've put a second transporter on ARK to even make the process work without another mode of transportation to get up there in the first place. It's not like he kept using the ship after that. More than likely, he had it because he initially needed to get up there to do some work. The transporter made the ship irrelevant. Sonic and co. didn't know about his transporter (why the fuck would they without finding out about it?), so they found the next best thing/assumption: a space ship. So they use that to get up there instead. It's a NASA space ship?....

 

Why do we care? I'm serious. How does caring and trying to solve the issue of where a maniac got a NASA space ship reconcile any existing problems of the narrative anymore than wondering how a maniac allows his deadly robots to run free in civilian areas like city streets, theme parks, hotels, and beaches without there always being a visible police presence trying to deal with it and places actually being shut down with tons of road construction signs and yellow tape?

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

I seriously do have to wonder about the actual logic concerning people's suspension of belief in this franchise. We can easily deal with Sonic breathing in space just cuz but not people confusing two hedgehogs in-universe for one another for what's a fairly minor catalyst in the grand scheme of the entire plot, especially when real people sometimes fail at differentiation in all sorts of things anyway. I'm also not sure how the trope being used in comedic situations still refutes its use in a game that opens with a blue bipedal hedgehog falling from a helicopter and boarding down the streets of San Fran with a piece of its wing, because that's clearly as stoic as Schindler's List or something. Seriously, I can't tell what actually deserves elaboration in this franchise and what doesn't anymore.

It's much easier for me to accept a break in the laws of physics in a fictional world than it is to accept the collective ignorance of everyone on Earth.

[shdowhunt60]

It's much easier for me to accept a break in the laws of physics in a fictional world than it is to accept the collective ignorance of everyone on Earth.

 

...

 

You must not watch the news a lot.

[azoo]

I think to sum up my feelings on SA2's story after this whole recollection..

 

I love it, but it's bad.

 

HOWEVER.

 

I think the reason I liked it so much as a kid (and why I continued to like it as I grew up) is because I filled in the blanks. There were cool things that happened in SA2, but without context, some of it was pretty dumb. Especially to non-fans. But to me? I just let theories sink in on why certain characters did certain things or why certain things were the way they were, and I let my imagination come into play. With that, I (and I'm sure a lot of others) sort of came to our own conclusions on why things happened the way they did in SA2, and with that, our perception on the game's story was much better.

 

But now that we've grown up, it's kind of obvious: the story issss... a weird one. Now don't get me wrong, I think it has some neat ideas, and the build-up / general idea of the plot is great! But it's obviously clumped together in haphazard ways that, as adults, we don't really see the point pretending there's hidden links between kinda sloppily put together story elements.

 

That said, if SA2 was rewritten to give the elaboration a lot of us fans have come up with (the whole "Shadow is connected to Gerald seeing the Hidden Palace mural" thing, "GUN went after Sonic to cover-up Shadow's existence", etc), included details that were left out of the game (Rouge's documents about Project Shadow), or generally had revised/improved script writing for the sake of dropping some of the cheese factor, we'd have a better put together story.

[Nepenthe]

It's much easier for me to accept a break in the laws of physics in a fictional world than it is to accept the collective ignorance of everyone on Earth.

 

Ignoring the fact that humans in general are actually demonstrably shit when it comes to seeing differences between individuals in an animal species or even different species altogether, the problem with this is that we're accepting that our third-person perspective of media is an accurate representation of how characters see their own world. This is false, and we accept this very easily all the time. It's why, as a relevant example, we wonder why good cartoon characters don't know that this person that was obviously designed with meta-concepts of "evil" in mind in order to communicate to children that they're bad on sight is, indeed, actually evil until they prove it. Unless you want to accept that such characters are simply stupid, then instead it's clear that the bad skin, scars, beady eyes, creepy smile, and dark attire are probably not translating as blatantly as warning signs to the fictional character who's actually interacting with them than they're translating to us. What is obvious to an audience with the power of omniscience is not obvious to a character who naturally lacks that power.

And there are other examples of this knowledge barrier we take for granted. It's why people scream at actors not to go into rooms where we know the killer is. It's why we know a single heroic martial arts fighter is probably going to be able to destroy the room of 100 men, in turn undermining the character's own sense of panic and adrenaline. Other times it humbles us, such as characters being able to understand Pokemon and translating their thoughts for us as if we're actually the idiots and need someone to hold our hand for what is clearly obvious communication to these trainers. The mere editing of a film also completely fucks up our sense of time compared to a fictional character's. A common example is the fact that a bomb's countdown is rarely done in real time since accuracy is considered to be less important than the act of using quick cuts to show simultaneous struggles during the countdown in order to raise tension for the audience. So while that one-minute countdown can be stretched to three minutes of film time, to all of the characters dealing with it, it was indeed one minute, and they feel lucky as shit to get that bomb deactivated despite us knowing that a bomb will rarely go off in these films.

 

In short, you're projecting your own omniscience as an audience member onto a fictional universe where it's completely impossible to do this with any accuracy. So perhaps Sonic and Shadow actually do look really fucking close to one another in order to fool the world into thinking Sonic has somehow turned bad or has shown up in weird places, and that the designs we see are just exaggerations for our own convenience.