2015 Baltimore Riots

[Nepenthe]

Younger people aren't immune from having racial biases or even being consciously racist, because they- like their parents- are insulted from actually interacting in any meaningful manner with minorities and have no access to challenges to their viewpoints aside from social media (which they're quick to dismiss as the domain of SJW bullies who want to paint white kids as devils), and as a result of generally living in a country that has not yet achieved racial equity, they get freely fed the same shit for their entire lives as their parents did. If anything, social media makes it damn easier to peruse the amount of 20 and 30 year olds who are as ass-backwards as ever, who think that their atheism or their e-fundraisers actually makes them great people. Don't make the mistake of thinking that this generation is notably more enlightened in that regard, and don't make the mistake of thinking that your own personal color-blindness actually means you were somehow immune to cultural indoctrination. This is exactly how people get away with not examining themselves. "I have a black friend so I can't be racist."

 

You know what will help though? White people like yourself who feel that they actually are particularly knowledgeable about these things finally talking to your family, friends, and peers about it, and transmitting our words, and actually fighting for us, so that the tide of opinion can perhaps start turning, instead of telling black people that the proposed solutions to problems that we're exclusively living with are untenable and useless. =/

[Tornado]

That's also over 20 years ago.

And Eric Garner was 9 months ago. They essentially choked him to death using a method that was against NYPD procedures for exactly that reason, then stood around while he was dying until paramedics came (who also basically just stood around for a while). No indictments.

John Crawford III was 8 months ago. They responded to a weapons call for a BB gun that the guy got while in a Wal-Mart, entered the store and shot him as soon as they saw him while he was on his cell phone. No indictments.

Tamir Rice was 6 months ago. They responded to a weapons call, pulled up in their car and shot the kid as soon as they saw him. I actually defended the cops for this one, since it was initially reported that they had given him ample warning and he pointed the gun at him without them knowing it was fake. The city of Cleveland has spent the past 6 months dragging their feet, until they decided that their first defense in the civil suit would be to blame Tamir for everything.

Eric Harris was two weeks ago. That guy shot the kid in the back while he was running away (probably on accident, but that's against the law as well). His actions got swept under the rug to hide blatant corruption in the police department he handed bags of money to.

We know all of these things happened and how they happened because they were all captured on video, so what's the holdup with all of the punishments?

 

 

 

 

There comes a point in time where you have to conclude that videos of police action by themselves don't mean jack shit if two police officers can drive up to a potential weapon call, get out of their car and immediately plug a 12 year old kid, throw the kid's sister to the ground and arrest her for running over to him after they shot him, all on video; and then blame the kid who was shot for the whole thing in initial court documents. Police departments actually need to want to prosecute officers for their behavior first, instead of just using dashcams and body cameras to defend officers against he-said/she-said scenarios (where I admit they are very useful). Even with Rodney King, the federal government had to step in themselves and practically ignore double jeopardy laws to actually get any action taken against those officers; and it'd be nice if that sort of thing could happen 20 years on without cities trying to burn themselves to the ground with outrage.

[The Kid]

Yeah, I'd say new generations growing up and replacing the older ones does jack squat in this case. There are privileged people in this world that really don't care about this whole issue because it doesn't affect them, and it probably never will. These people find the struggle of others as nothing more than a burden on their daily timeline of memes and jokes. Enough people need to care, and people will only care the more others make their voices heard.

 

I only say this because a furry I know just tweeted that "they don't care about Freddie Gray because it doesn't affect them" and another popular furry just tweeted a racist picture of someone flying in kentucky fried chicken to quell the Baltimore Riots. This shit doesn't go away unless it is addressed. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Can I just say that you know this is fucked up when gang members from the goddamn Bloods and Crips make a truce and can stand in the same room without killing each other over this incident? All while saying they disapprove of vandalizing and attacking cops?

Hypocritical to a certain degree, but really saying something nonetheless.

[Tani Coyote]

You know what will help though? White people like yourself who feel that they actually are particularly knowledgeable about these things finally talking to your family, friends, and peers about it, and transmitting our words, and actually fighting for us, so that the tide of opinion can perhaps start turning, instead of telling black people that the proposed solutions to problems that we're exclusively living with are untenable and useless. =/

I chastise older people all the time for racist viewpoints. I point out the negative effects a lot of policies that have nothing to do with race on their surface have on minorities.

No fucks are given, and like any political conversation, any common ground we achieve is forgotten by the next conversation; they agreed for the moment just to shut me up. Older people are a waste of time.

The way I'm seeing it, there's no choice but to focus on the younger generation. I'll also say I don't think we can ever eliminate racism completely, without eliminating race. What we can hope for is it becomes negligible in the bigger scheme of things, and we do see this to varying extents: while there's no shortage of racist remarks about black people's work ethic, nobody really expects segregation or interracial marriage bans anymore.

Well, except if one's in the South, but that's not surprising. I lament the fact we just didn't let them secede every day. :V

 

Police departments actually need to want to prosecute officers for their behavior first, instead of just using dashcams and body cameras to defend officers against he-said/she-said scenarios (where I admit they are very useful).

 

Which I already pointed out when I mentioned it's the police culture that is a backbone of the problem.

 

Can I just say that you know this is fucked up when gang members from the goddamn Bloods and Crips make a truce and can stand in the same room without killing each other over this incident? All while saying they disapprove of vandalizing and attacking cops?

Hypocritical to a certain degree, but really saying something nonetheless.

It makes sense. With gang violence the brutality is targeted. In riots, everything's in flames. Even a criminal can understand that's not the best idea.

It should be noted most gangs (and even formal organizations like the Mafia) didn't start off as criminals, but as neighborhood defense forces, usually in absence of (or brutal activity by) the police force. This gave them power, and we all know what happens with power.

[Solkia]

http://mic.com/articles/117158/breaking-criminal-charges-to-be-filled-against-police-officers-in-freddie-gray-case?utm_source=policymicTBLR&utm_medium=main&utm_campaign=social

 

 

 

Maryland state attorney Marilyn J. Mosby announced Friday morning that Freddie Gray's death at the hands of Baltimore police was a homicide, and that criminal charges will be filed.

 

"The findings of our comprehensive, thorough and independent investigation, coupled with the medical examiner's determination that Mr. Gray's death was a homicide, which we received today, has led us to believe that we have probable cause to file criminal charges," she said.

 

"A warrant has been issued for their arrest."

[Kuzu]

Fuck, I was just about to post that too. But yea, six officers were arrested,

[Johnny Boy]

I don't mean to sound like a jackass, but even if these guys have charges against them, I won't be surprised if they walk free in the end.

[Solkia]

I don't think anyone is expecting it to be successful, but the fact that the arrests were so fast is surprising.

[Tani Coyote]

You have to try really hard to explain a near internal decapitation as anything other than brutality.

With most cases there's some wiggle room for doubt that can be used in the officer's defense. Conflicting accounts, lack of video, etc.

People's heads don't generally come close to falling off on their own. The amount of logic as well as hard evidence piling up shows clear malice here.

And the fucked up part is they will probably walk away unless tried by a higher court.

And that's when the real riots will start.

[shdowhunt60]

Well, except if one's in the South, but that's not surprising. I lament the fact we just didn't let them secede every day. :V 

I lament that you guys didn't let us either, but a certain prestigious dictator wouldn't have it either way. If it pleases you, maybe we can try it again.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I lament that you guys didn't let us either, but a certain prestigious dictator wouldn't have it either way. If it pleases you, maybe we can try it again.

[shdowhunt60]

In an age where we have smart missiles, tanks, and fighter jets and information takes milliseconds to spread?

 

...good luck, then. You had better chances in the 1800s than you would now trying another civil war. XD

What do those have to do with anything? We got plenty of those down here too.

That's besides the point anyways. It's fucking annoying everytime Nepenthe acts like we're fucking cancer or something, which is priceless when she's doing this after cauterwalling about discrimination while sitting on her damn high horse.

It's a shame, because I was agreeing with her in regards to how racism tied into how militarized our police force has become, and how we've given them this hyper-reactionary mindset that has them actively harrassing certain classes of people, because we basically tell them to fill our jails more than anything else.

It just grinds my fucking gears when people here DO that. Stop it. We're not the problem. And sitting there and taking piss-shots at us does nothing to help anything.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

What do those have to do with anything? We got plenty of those down here too.

Everything? Because fighting a civil war with modern weapons, tactics, and technology that didn't exist in the 1800 is a completely different matter all together. We didn't have cruise missiles, airplanes, or computers back then - now that we do, and with the internet giving information in seconds rather than days, you'd have lost the war the moment it even began and made your efforts pointless.

 

Not to mention that just because we have them down here doesn't mean we can use them, and even if it did, it's not the only place we have them stockpiled. So you'd likely lose even worse than you did the first civil war.

[shdowhunt60]

Everything? Because fighting a civil war with modern weapons, tactics, and technology that didn't exist in the 1800 is a completely different matter all together. We didn't have cruise missiles, airplanes, or computers back then - now that we do, and with the internet giving information in seconds rather than days, you'd have lost the war the moment it even began and made your efforts pointless.

 

Not to mention that just because we have them down here doesn't mean we can use them, and even if it did, it's not the only place we have them stockpiled. So you'd likely lose even worse than you did the first civil war.

 

We lost the first Civil War, because Lincoln conscripted every able white male and marched them South. We lost back then because of sheer volume, and that was how wars back then were won.

 

Short of both sides glassing each other, I hardly doubt it would be as simple as that.

[Tani Coyote]

The comment about the Civil War was mostly an aside. As much as I enjoy tearing modern secessionist sentiments a new one, this isn't the thread for them.

I was mostly referring to how racism is no doubt more endemic to the South, when you have 1/3 of the population of some states secretly stating (via the ballot box) that they don't view blacks as equals. Remember: pretty much every other part of the country made interracial marriage legal on its own. The South had to have the Loving decision crammed down their throats. Just as they will soon have legal gay marriage crammed down their throats too.

Go figure, the South is where the bulk of these cases pop up. One might be quick to say "Of course, that's where the majority of black people live!" but I'm willing to wager that the amount of cases out of the South is disproportionate to the amount of the Black population living there. This is not to say that other parts of the country are free from racism, however.

The South is also where the police state finds its biggest ally. While you've got your libertarian and paleoconservative elements, neoconservatism wins the day, and neoconservatism is what glorifies the police and the army and seeks to put them beyond reproach. This by proxy feeds into the race problem, because even if we can't get rid of racism, we could mitigate it immensely by handcuffing law enforcement. But that's not an option in our nation, because you're "soft on crime."

All despite the fact there is no correlation between police presence and crime. There is absolutely a correlation between police presence and tyranny, however.

[Nepenthe]

That's besides the point anyways. It's fucking annoying everytime Nepenthe acts like we're fucking cancer or something, which is priceless when she's doing this after cauterwalling about discrimination while sitting on her damn high horse.

It's a shame, because I was agreeing with her in regards to how racism tied into how militarized our police force has become, and how we've given them this hyper-reactionary mindset that has them actively harrassing certain classes of people, because we basically tell them to fill our jails more than anything else.

It just grinds my fucking gears when people here DO that. Stop it. We're not the problem. And sitting there and taking piss-shots at us does nothing to help anything.

If a black person detailing from both personal experience and researched sources going on about the failure of white American culture concerning the general lack of acceptance and willingness to combat institutional racism bothers you to the point that you start making up my argument with a textbook outraged deflection, you are indeed part of the problem.

[Solkia]

It just grinds my fucking gears when people here DO that. Stop it. We're not the problem. And sitting there and taking piss-shots at us does nothing to help anything.

 

Not doing anything about the problem is part of the problem.

 

Our ancestors fucked up and we haven't fixed their fuck ups. Get the stick out of your ass.

[Tani Coyote]

I'd also add that in general, yes, taking potshots at a group doesn't help much to aid discussion.

But this is a forum. We can say things how they are rather than subscribe to the need to keep political discourse palatable.

Or rather. In a public political debate, it would be good form to try and be unduly polite to politicians and their constituents who exacerbate the racial problem.

But here? Tear them a new one.

I will absolutely blame neoconservatives and the right wing in general for problems of race, because while the left isn't free from its own racial problems, I think it's easy to see which party and ideology's policies have by far the most adverse effects.

Just to illustrate the point here, bringing up that earlier discussion... which side of the political spectrum glorifies a state that built its economy on slavery?

[Nepenthe]

The right is definitely more in the "I don't give a fuck 'bout those monkeys" camp of racism, but all that means is that they're relatively easier to confront and combat. People who falls on the left American scale have a racism that I would characterize as more lackadaisical and apathetic, and it's potentially more subtle and thus insidious that way. It's that white moderate that King talks about- the fence-sitters who champion peace and stability over the justice necessary for social upheaval and change, particularly when it comes from racial minorities in their own neighborhoods which only displays the irony present in their views. White people rioting and destroying property for their sovereignty during the revolutionary period are heroes, and people all the way over in Hong Kong rioting now for their own ends are champions of the democratic process, but black people rioting here and now to not get unfairly targeted and/or killed by the body supposed to protect them most need to stop for a second and think about the property they're destroying. It's annoyingly hypocritical finger-wagging.

 

Also, I don't mind people taking white culture to task in more political or educational settings. But dat's jus me doe.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Nepenthe

[shdowhunt60]

If a black person detailing from both personal experience and researched sources going on about the failure of white American culture concerning the general lack of acceptance and willingness to combat institutional racism bothers you to the point that you start making up my argument with a textbook outraged deflection, you are indeed part of the problem.

 

Didn't I just say it was a problem, and that I agree with your point?

 

My damned problem was how you undermined that by doing what you were just preaching against.

[Nepenthe]

I'm not undermining anything. You're taking personal umbrage with the fact that I'm putting the cause of the continuation of the racism problem in America on the inability of white American culture to properly process the reality of the situation or even show a willingness to combat it. You said I called you guys a cancer (never did nor even hinted at it) and you're angry that I'm saying you- white America- are part of the problem (you literally are). That's just you taking it personal. If you're done acting fragile, we can move on and start discussing more pertinent things versus having a generic runaround where I'm forced to address and assuage your personal feelings.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Nepenthe

[shdowhunt60]

I'm not undermining anything. You're taking personal umbrage with the fact that I'm putting the cause of the continuation of the racism problem in America on the inability of white American culture to properly process the reality of the situation or even show a willingness to combat it. You said I called you guys a cancer (never did nor even hinted at it) and you're angry that I'm saying you- white America- are part of the problem (you literally are). That's just you taking it personal. If you're done acting fragile, we can move on and start discussing more pertinent things versus having a generic runaround where I'm forced to address and assuage your personal feelings.

 

Fuck it then, I'm out of here. I'm the problem, so I'll leave you guys to solve it. Have fun.

[Nepenthe]

Fuck it then, I'm out of here. I'm the problem, so I'll leave you guys to solve it. Have fun.

 

See, you perfectly encapsulate what black people are always talking about. When we get a chance to air out our grievances with a sociopolitical system that's killing us left and right with little recourse and which is run mostly in part by white Americans who have more power to actually help us out, you immediately take all of that upon yourself and feel like we're personally attacking you, the individual. And in a thread that was kicked off with a fact about a man who was internally decapitated and suffered for a week, a case where the state actually found the responsible officers at fault enough to charge them for it, you throw a tantrum and make yourself the victim. I even made sure to edit my post to clarify I'm not talking about every single individual, but about the pervading culture that allows this to happen, and you still bitched about it because I didn't take the time to clarify that shdowhunt60 is the special snowflake exception to all of this (even though your reaction makes it clear you're not). Then once you've had your fill of misplaced outrage you run away to the comfort and safety of a reality that will continue catering to your feelings and needs simply because that's what you're used to.

 

So yeah, leave the rest of us here who have some fucking backbone to face reality to do the work, and you can go play a fucking Sonic game or something.

[Kuzu]

Yea, the next generation sure is on the right track of helping to solve this problem :V

 

 

Real talk tho, if you don't have enough balls to leave your ego at the door and acknowledge that the issues with black people and the police go far beyond us "just throwing a tantrum" and that the blame is mostly on the years of racism by whites that is still prevalent today, then you can honestly go fuck off. I'm sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings, but I really don't feel people truly understand the gravity of the situation because they're too busy worrying about their own daily lives to give a damn. 

 

Black people have had to deal with oppression and racism for hundreds of years, we have more than enough of a justification to be pissed the hell off. So excuse us if we're not exactly sympathetic to people's feelings sometimes, especially in a world that is constantly ignoring the issues and actively making our outrage seem "disproportionate".